PROVINCIAL COUNCIL

Wellington Independent, Volume XX, Issue 2235, 22 July 1865, Page 5

PROVINCIAL COUNCIL

Tuesday, July IS, 1865. Tna Speaker took the Chair at 5 o'clock. TETITIOSS. A petition was presented by Mf KICICSON, from J. Maclagan and .Jas. Thompson, contractors, praying that the penalty imposed on them, for not completing a certain wharf within the specified i time, might be remitted. , Mr LUDLAM also presented a petition from S. Parker and others, of the Middle Wniwetu, of the Lower Hutt District, praying that the bridge for the Waiwetu district might be put. in a proper state. Both petitions were referred to the j Private Grievance Committee. • I KAIWARRA-WARRA BRIDGE. | Mr BOBLASE asked the Provincial Secretary I why the G-overnmcnfc had so long delayed the erection of a bridge over the Kaiwarra-warra stream on the Hutt road, in the place of the one which was carried away some months ago. Mr HALCOMBE said that a plan aud estimate of a bridge had been ordered, but the Government had delayed erecting it until a sum of money was appropriated for the purpose. MARKET ACT. Mr LUDLAM asked the Provincial Secretary if it was the intention of the Government to introduce a Bill to repeal clause 27, of the Market Act, Session 1, of the Provincial Council. His reason for asking the question was, because in the Besident Magistrate's Court recently a construction was put on tho Act, which, although it was correct as far as the words went, was contrary to the spirit and intention of it. Mr BBANDON, to whom the question was referred by Mr Halcombe with the permission of Mr Ludlam, replied that the clause had already been brought under his notice by several persons, and he had told them that as this matter affected not one district merely, but the whole Province, they ought to memorialise the Government, who would then' have not tho slightest objection to make the required alteration. RECLAIMED LAND. Mr LUDLAM said he wished to ask the Provincial Secretary, before the business of the day was proceeded with, when the Government intended to lay on tho table the plan of tho reclaimed land with tho street marked according to a pre- : vious resolution of tho Council. Mr HALCOMBE said in reply, that he expected to be able to do so that evening. DISTRICT StTPEI!INTBNDEN r T3. Mr BOBLASE, in moving that in each district. of tho Province there should be stationed by the Government some person to represent the Government in all matters relating to the district except in certain cases to be specified, said that he had recently been in Wanganui and Wairarapa, and the principal grievance complained of there was that they had to refer to Wellington on every little matter that required to be attended to. It was nothing but local self-government that the resolution sought, not perhaps a full measure of it, but at any rate an instalment. He would ask the Council to refer back to Session 1858, and they would see that a similar measure was brought forward then. The out-districts maintained that if they were not allowed to manage their own local affairs, they would go in for separation. Wanganui was trying for separation, and in his (Mr Borlase's) opinion it would be quite right for Wanganui so do so, if local self-government were not given to it. If a porson representing the Superintendent were sent to these out-districts to deal with the different matters which might arise, the people would be satisfied. He might only be a subordinate of tho Government and not a member of it, and if he misconducted himself some one j else could bo put in his place. He (Mr Borlase) trusted that some such measure as ho had pro- j posed would be adopted. ! Mr HICKSON seconded the motion. Mr HALCOMBE said ho was much surprised that Mr Borlase, belonging as he did to the legnl profession, had not seen that by the Executive Act it was. quite beyond the power of tho Council to grant his resolution. Another objection was, that the self-government which he sought to obtain was already given to the different districts by the Local Boards Act, which conferred on Local Boards very considerable executive powers — with this difference, however, that in the cases of Boards the powers were vested in several persons, ■whereas by the measure proposed the power would be vested in one person only. Wanganui and Wairarapa would be theonly districts where such a measure could be at all necessary ; with regard to Wanganui the Executive were doing all in their power to remedy the grievance ; the proposed Electric Telegraph was for that purpose. The Government had the matter very much at heart, and were determined to do all tliej' could to over- 1 come the difficulty which tho distance of Wanganui from Wellington occasioned. He (Mr Halcombe) ' might also add that if the proposed measure was j ■were carried out it would entail considerable expense. (Hear, hear.) In conclusion, tho lion member asserted that every day all parts of the Province were being brought nearer to the Seat of its Government. Mr WELCH could not agree with tho Provincial Secretary. He would speak about the Wairarapa, where the want of some one to represent the Superintendent was greatly felt. Tho only person visiting there was the Inspector of Boads, and he only went once a month, wliile work in his absence was negligently done. He (Mr Welch) complained most grievously about the manner in which the expenditure of public money had been made. He knew of a case in which a person had received a grant in aid for making a road for his own private purposes. An officer of the kind sought for would prevent bucli a grievance. He maintained that tho Act quoted from by the Provincial Secretary had not been properly carried out, and that if such officer Avere appointed he would save the Government a great deal of trouble. He did not think a great expense would be incurred in carrying out the resolution, probably only £500 or £600. With regard to trivial contracts taken by working men, it was agreut expense to them to come to Wellington to make the necosBary arrangements, which would be obviated by tho appointment of the officer required. With regard to any complaint made of slip 3or accidents to roads reference could bo made to such an officer. Nothing could bo done in the Wairarapa without the interference of tho Government, although there was a District Board, for' they had to refer to the Inspector of Boads, which occasioned considerable delay. It waa tho same in another district, Mr LUDLAM said the complaint could not be very strong or else the Wanganui members would have risen. The mover had not stated exactly what the powers of the person appointed should be. If he undertook any work which tho Government could not approve of, that would ba awkward, and the Government would lay tho blame on their subordinate. If an application were made to the officer to spend £100, he could not do it without' reference to the Government, in fact he could only receive applications. To give an officer the power sought for, he would have to be in the Executive, which would be impossible. The people of the Middle Island were of opinion they should have a representative of the General Government in their part of tho country and the scheme was tried but was found to fail. Mr KELLS stated that such an officer wonld appear to him to be useful in Wanganui, but if, as the Provincial Secretary said, it was beyond the power of the Council to move in tho matter, he did not see tho nso of bringing forward such a measure.

Mr MASTERS said he would bo glad to see Municipal institutions established throughout tho Province. In consequence of the want of the necessary funds for the payment of District Boards, the District Board Act had not worked satisfactorily.

Mr BBANDON said that if Mr Borlase would study the " Board Act," he would find that it provided for the local self-government which ho sought. District Boards might make themselves if they chose, the representatives of tho Government in their several districts. Complaints had been made verbally about the maner in which money had been spent on public works, but no complaint had tho Government ever received in writing. If they had ever received any, they would have immediately enquired into tho matter, but it would be absurd for the Government to br ; ng a cnarge against their officers on rumor merely. If an officer to represent tho Superintendent were appointed at Wanganui, he could not draw a single penny without the Superintendent's warrant, who would have himself to refer to the Estimates and the Appropriation Act, and it would be perfectly absurd to entrust to such an officer a discretionary power which was vested in the Superintendent only on the advice of his Executive Council. In conclusion, Mr Brandon advised the country members to represent to their constituents the advantages they would obtain by carrying out the " District Board Act."

Mr BBYCE said the subject had been much discussed in Wanganui and the want of some representative was very much felt. He considered there was a great deal of difficulty in the matter. Tho Snb-Trcasurcr in Wanganni was an agent of the Government, but he had not much power. If the Government appointed a bad man with a great deal of power he would give a great deal of dissatisfaction, if however, a good man could bo procured, he would, no doubt, be of great advantage to Wanganui. What reason had the Provincial Solicitor to expect a board to be appointed when there was no provision for its payment. They would do tho work if paid, but not otherwise. Dr ALLISON" was glad Mr Borlase had brought forward this measure, though perhaps he went rather farther than was desirable. What was wanted was some one to communicate with the Government in each district and to assist the local boards. Although he was glad the subject had been ventilated, he thought tho measure was uot practicable in its present shape.

Mv BORLASE in reply to tlio various membera who had spoken, called their attention to tho latter part of his resolution, which proposed to limit the powers of the officer ho wished to be appointed. He said also that if there were any Act of the Council which prevented such an appointment, surely they could override it by another Act. The Provincial Solicitor had spoken as if the District Boards were to be the salvation of the country, but they had not the power which ho (Mr Borlase) would wish to be conferred on the officers he was moving for. The Wanganui Board had not power throughout the whole of the district — a district, which wns perhaps worthy of being constituted a province, but if a proper representative of the Superintendent were appointed in every district which wished for one, ho would have the power of dealing in all those little matters, which were at present all referred to the Superintendent at Wellington. Tho Provincial Secretary hud said that every day the outlying districts were being brought in closer communication with Wellington ; no doubt they were, for very shortly, if the Government persisted in their present courses, all the land they controlled would, by means of the separation of certain districts, be very close indeed to Wellington. It was to prevent the- not groundless discontent in. Wanganui and other districts, which might lead to a dismemberment of the province that ho brought for- ! ward the present motion. Mr Ludlam said that tho Executive ought to be responsible for everything and that they would be able, if this motion led to any result, to shift the responsibility to their representative. The same argument would apply to their Engineer and to their other servants. Another argument was that the proposed representative of the Government could not have power to spend money, but he (Mr Borlaac) maintained that he could have power to see that any money voted for a special purpose was spent properly and also that any repairs urgently required were immediately done, for he might surely bo entrusted with a small balance for such a purpose. The plan had succeeded in other places, and he believed it wovdd work well in Wellington. In conclusion, he (Mr Borlase) said that if the complaints of the outlying districts were not attended to, the result would be the dismemberment of tho Province. On the motion being put, the House divided, when there appeared — Ayis, 7. Noes, 21. Borlase Allison Dransficld Burt Galloway Brandon Hickson Bryce Masters Crawford Welch Fagan Wallace Halcombo Hunter ' Johnston Kells Ludlam Mil no, A. McDouall Pharazyn Penree Rhodes Reading Stokes Turnbull Taylor Watt The motion was consequently negatived by a majority of 14 members. GOVERNMENT AVOIIK. Mr BORLASE moved that all Government work, except in eases of emergency, should bo offered to public competion. He said ho brought tho motion forward as this system had not always been complied with in accordance with previous resolutions of tho Council. Mr HICKSON seconded the motion. | Mr WELCH said that there were cases in which contracts were so altered, that a great injustice was done to the contracting parties, and there were also cases in which works were not done by contract at all. Tho hon member then quoted some instances. Mr lIALCOMBE said that n,s far as practicable the Government had most strictly adhered to tho terms of the resolution. The instructions of the Government to its otliccrs had been to lot, if practicable, every single work to be performed, and the Government could bring forward a very good reason, if it had not been done in some instances, why it had not been done. With regard to the Waiohini Bridge the nature of that work prevented its being let by contract, as ho had stated on a previous evening ; but, as it appeared useless for the Government to make replies to hon members, ho would state again that the Provincial Engineer had approved of that work. Mr WELCH said in explanation that the Waihini Bridge might be an exception. Mr MASTERS said that £500 was given to a Mr Ashmore, for the Waiohini Bridge, afterwards a Mr Carter was to receive £500 for tho approaches, lie maintained that the Provincial Secretary must be in error. Mr WALLACE said that a great number of instances might be given in which works had not been done by contract and he thought it not unnecessary that the resolution shoxild be brought forward. Ho would support it. Mr LUDLAM said if tho Government were carrying out tho resolutions of the Council, it Avas only very lately. He would go further and com-

pel the Governmont to let all works by public tender, but at the samo time give the Government i power to refuse tenders, or probably a combina- ) tion would be formed against the Government. • Many more works laid been done of late years by contract than formerly, but he would like to see repairs to roads done by contract. [Mr Halcombe * That has been done, but not successfully.] If the Q-ovcrnment were not bound to accept the tondera they would soon have a number of men ready to tender at a reasonable rate. In conclusion the lion member said lie would support the resolution. Mi" BRANDON said that a motion like tho present one put a slur on tho Executive, as if tho Government were not carrying out previous resolutions of tho Council. It would be much better if honorable members would ask questions in connection with the works performed. Mr BORLASE in reply, stated, that Mr Welch had specified an instance, in which there could be no possible excuse for not letting the work by ft contract. The honorablo member then gave another instance. The system also of compensating contractors was one he objected to. He presumed there would be no objection to the motion. On the question being put, tho motion was carried. The House then adjourned for half an hour. STANDING ORDEHS. On the re-assembling of the House, MV BRANDON brought up Report of tho Committee on Standing Orders, which recommended that the Standing Orders be tho same as those of last session, with one or two trifling exceptions. The report was then adopted, and tho Standing Orders ordered to be printed. LOAN BILL (SECOND BEADING.) Mr HALCOMBE in moving tho second reading said that tho first loan negotiated by tho Province was in 1854, with Messrs Gt-ladstone & Co, for £50,000, for the repayment of which there was no time fixed. The next loan was negotiated with the Bank of Australia in 1857,---and it was to bo repaid in 18G7. It was therefore necessary that the Province should take some , steps to meet its liabilities at that time. The only way of doing so, without setting aside a larger portion of tho revenue than tho Province would be justified in doing, was to raise a new loan. That was the object of tho Bill, and in order to provido for the redemption of tho proposed loan in a short time and by a process which would not press very heavily at any time on the Province, it was proposed to create a sinking fund for its gradual repayment, wliich sinking fund should bo set apart at the rato of £1,000 per annum, and kept closely invested in the same way as the sinking fund for tho loan of £25,000. It was calculated that, if this £1,000 per annum were kept closely invested, it would take eighteen years to repay tho debt, or in other words, that the Province would actually have to pay out of its chest tho sum of £18,000. Ho would lay on the table on the following evening, the calculation on which the Estimate was based. Tho hon. mem- : ber then read over the liabilities of tho Province, which ho- entered into more fully in his linancial statement. Mr BRANDON seconded tho motion. The Bill was then read a second time and ordered to be committed the following day. TEE FINANCIAL STATEMENT. Tho House then went into Committee on the Estimates. Mr HALCOMBE said that in moving tho consideration of the Estimates, he would make his Financial Statement. He proposed first to enter into the subject of tho realisation of the estimated revenue for 1861, and to show the Council how far the realisation had come up to the Estimates. He would then speak on the expenditure of tho samo period, comparing the actual expenditure with the different amounts voted in the Appropriation Act, and showing that where tho expenditure had fallen short of tho amounts voted, the Eiecutivo had been justified in departing from the Appropriation Act. He would do that in justification of his Honor's Executive, and to clear them of tho imputation of haying neglected the votes of tho Council. He would then state how tho Council stood at the end of the last financial year, and enter on the revenue for 1865-6, and stato on what the Customs and General revenue were fouudod. Ho would next enter into the expenditure proposed by his Honor's Executive. First, as to the realisation of tho estimated revenue of 1861-5, ho could not enter into this subject without congratulating the Council on their full realisation. Tho Customs Revonuo was estimated at £20,000 ; it realised £19,759123 4d. The licensing of Publicans and Auctioneers, was estimated at £2,100; it realised £2073 12s od. The Pilotage dues of Wellington and Wanganui were estimated at £750, but they exceeded that in tho realisation, and amounted to £1075 7s 2d. The assessment on sheep was estimated at £700, and it realised £672 4s lid. The Hospital 1 and Lunatic Asylum subsistence money was estimated at £150, and it amounted to £81103. Inj cidental receipts, which were estimated at £1,500, amounted to £1/152. The Toll Barroeoipts, estimated at £1,500, realised £1,301. The Queen's Warehouse and Wharf, estimated receipts £1500, brought in £1315 11s 3d. The rates on Land and contributions for Grants-in-Aid, which were estimated at £5,000, amounted in their realisation to £3534 9s lOd. Tho Reclaimed Land, which was estimated to bring in £7,000, brought in £9725 11s Bd. Hawke's Bay interest was £2500. Immigrants' Promissory Notes, estimated at £1,200, realised £1037 5s 10d' Of the cost of Lighthouse, viz., £7,000, only £175 12s 5d had yet been paid. The estimated Refund of Advance to tho Commissioners of Public Reserves, Wellington, had also been realised, viz., £400, and for pasture licenses, rents, and land sales, for which only £36,000 was set down, a realisation of £19,113 5s 9d Avas obtained — making a total altogether of Estimated Revenue£ 105,358 2a sd, and of Revenue • actually realised, £112,014 for the year 1864-5, being nearly £7,000 in excess of the Estimated Revenue, notwithstanding the non-payment of the £7,000, tho rcfnnd of the cost of the Lighthouse. He (Mr Halcombe) would I then enter on the expenditure for 1864-5, I showing tho amounts expended in excess of the Appropriation Act and tho amounts unexpended. He went into this part of his subject more in order to show how the Executive followed tho direction of the Council to tho best of thoir ability, than for any other purpose. It was hardly necessary to give the cost of the different departments but if honorable members wished it, he would do so. , First in the Provincial Government O dices there was an expenditure of £3090 10s 8d being not ; quite £200 below the estimated expenditure. The chief cause of the money not being all expended was because at the time there was no active Treasurer employed. He might congratulate tho Province on so small an expenditure under tho head of the Executive, compared with the large revenue. Wellington stood first and foremost of all the Provinces in showing how cheaply provinces could be governed. The honorable member then read over the other items commenting on some of them. He said £600 had been spent in tho Legislative Department in excess of the appropriation, which was owing to thero having^ been two sessions of the Council during tho year. There had also been an excess spent in tho gaol department of Wellington and Wanganui. There had also been an excess of the amount voted spent in the Charitable Department, owing to the sickness which had prevailed in Wellington during tho last summer. Under tho hoad of [' miscellaneous contingencies" thero was asumof £387 1359 d not appropriated, which was chiefly occasioned by verdicts having been given in one or two oases against the Government in tho Supremo Court. Tho honorablo member then gave some other

instances of amounts having been expended in excess of the Appropriation Act, all of which were necessary and entirely unavoidable. In the survey and Road Departments tho amount expended had fallen short of tho amount appropriated. Tho amount of £2,500 for the Grammar School Wellington, had been unexpended simply because no action had been taken by tho Trustees of the School. The Provincial Secretary then mentioned other amounts which had been appropriated but not spent. A sum of £2,500 had been -voted for tho road between Featherston and Opaki but it had not been spent because the plans were not ready at the time and a short time since when the report was handed in, there was no money in the Provincial Chest to exeeuto the work. Under the head of "Grants in aid "£12,565 was spent, leaving £2134 unexpended simply because no further amounts were called for. Pic would appeal to the returns of roads made by District Boards and to the practical knowledge of a great many gontlemen present, if this 12,500 had not been as well spent as any money expended on public works in the Province. Tho sum of £500 placed on the estimates for the erection of a house for Native Chiefs appeared as unexpended, but the house was nearly finished and the money would soon be called for. He would now enter on a comparison of tho expenditure with the amounts voted in the Appropriation Act and as he had stated before he did so in justification of the Superinteni dent and his executive. The total amount expended without direct authority was £20,774, of this sum £12,370 was expended in the purchase of the Manawatu Block. Every one would agree that that money was well expended ; £2600 was also spent in excess of tho appropriation on roads, which sum included money spent on the road botweon Waitotara and Wanganui — an expenditure which tho Superintendent was forced into and could not have refrained from, without doing a great of harm by stopping tho means of communication throughout tho Province. The amount of £1437 appeared under the head of sundry undertakings, such as grants in aid of schools, steam subsidies, Queen's Warehouso and Wharf, as expended in excess of tho Appropriation. He might say with reference to tho Wharf that the Government regretted that the expense had proved so large, and, if it were possible, the Government | would take now a very different cour so with regard to it. The smallness of the returns from it aroso chiefly from thebadnessoftheplanofit,andfromtho eiiornious amount of labor required to move goods along it, The Wharf was however about to bo extended and although the Government were awaro that that extension would monopolize the whole of the Wharf with tho material required, they saw no way at present of altering the management of it. The reason of tho falling off of the receipts was because tho Government had allowed people to have tho Wharf much too cheaply. For Sundry Works a sum of £867 had been spent in excess of the Appropriation, which could easily be accounted for. The exhibition had taken more money than was expected, as well as the Public Baths. £500 had bern spent in tho purchaso of tho Alpacas by the Superintendent, which was unappropriated. If- was however an expenso which he thought the ( "ouncil could not grumble at. The next item w.i ; £2000 spent in excess of tho Appropriation IV Legislative, Judicial, and Charitable purj) ■ os, which ho had already accounted for. ,1 ! 000 unappropriated was also spent for refund; that amount however was provided for by special Act. The total amount of the sums spent in excess of the Appropriation Act, was £20,77-1 as against £21,8000, the amount of votes and balances unexpended. In the Survey Department, the amount appropriated had not been fully oxpended, as no expensive survey had b«en undertaken. He had already explained several of the other items. The full amount for Grants in Aid for Roads had not been expended, simply because people had not asked for them. With regard to Polhiil's Gully Road, ono of the Engineers was at that moment going over the lino again to make a rough] calculation of the probable cost, and ho was convinced that the £500 voted was quite insufficient. Tho sum of £3000 had been left unspent for Immigration purposes, owing to the number of assisted Immigrants not having been co great as was expected. There were also other items, to which it would not bo necessary to refer particularly, for ho (Mr Halcombe) trusted to be able to lay the return on the table the next evening. Ho might mention that he had found considerable difficulty in undertaking tho position ho then held, and had not had time to give the return that careful attention which it ought to have, as he had not sufficient assistance. If the return was considered carefully by lion members the}' would see that the Executive was not deserving of tho charges which several hon members had brought against it. The Superintendent and his Executive had endeavored to carry out tho Appropriation of the Council without injury to the public works in hand, and without risking the usefulness of others, by spending too small an amount on them. If any hon. member thought that any item of excess of expenditure or of deficiency of expenditure was wrongly made, he (Mr Ila'lcombe) would bog him to study the list and try to find out how it could have been avoided. Ho might mention that so exactly had the expenditure been made in accordance with the revenue that at the end of the last financial year there was very little over £1000 in haud, and tho Council had to meet immediately on the close of tho Financial year to make arrangements for sending home £6000, interest due on the loan to the Province. Ho would next go through the liabilities of tho Province. They were as folloAvs — Loan from Messrs Gladstone & Co. £50,000 ; Loan from the Union Bank of Australia £50,000, another Loan of £25,000; Wellington Saving's Bank and other deposits £1700 and advance of £16,000 from the General Government for the Waitotara Road, making altogether £145,700, from which had to bo deducted Hawkes Bay estimated share of Loan £35,000, and tho Sinking Fund £2500, which made a nett total of £108,200. On tho 31st March 1865, thero was a balance in hand of £4192 4s Bd, including the General Government Debentures £3000 for the Waitotara Road. In going into tho estimates of the present year they might refer to tho realizationof the estimates of last year with a great deal of satisfaction ; the deficiency in come cases being balanced by the excess in the realization in others. Tho # gross Customs Revenue for tho year 1865-6 had been estimated at £30,000 although the realization of last year had only amounted to £19,759 12s 4d; but tho Customs of last quarter amounteclto I £7550 (no doubtowing to the increaseof population and trade), and atthat rate the Customs of the wholo year would amount to £200 more than was estimated. Publicans and auctioneers licenses had been estimated at £2,400, almost the whole of which sum had already been realised. Other Estimates wore pilotage, Wellington and Wanganui, £1,500 ; assessment on sheep, £800 ; hospital subsistence money, £100 ; incidental receipts, £1,500 ; tollbar, £1,500 ; Queen's warehouse and wharf, £1,500 ; rates on land and contributions for grants in aid, £5,000 ; tho Wanganui Bridgo Debentures, amounting to £3,750, would go towards the espouse of forming tho Wanganui Bridge. The returns from the reclaimed land wore estimated at £1,000, and he (Mr llalcombe) had very little doubt they would bo realised if not exceeded, for in tho last year they had been estimated at £7,000 and yielded £9,725 11s Bd. The hon member then read over the other Estimates. They wcro as follows : — Refund of cost of lighthouse, £11,000; purchase-money of Provincial Government Buildings, £9,175 ; refund of advances to General Government, £1,200 ; interest on Treasury Bills, £1000 j Customs Surplus Revenuo, £1,456 ; and pasture licenses, rents, and land sales, £48,000. Application had been made for 152,000 acres of 5s lands, and 120,000 acres would bo ready within tho next six months, which would amount to about £30,000|; thoremaiuing}£lß,ooowa9expectod

to be made up by sales of 10s lands, as purchasers of 58 lands were almost forced to buy 10s lands in order to complete their properties, and it was also estimated that the sale of the township of Manawatu, which the Government hoped to be ablo to put in the market within the next 18 months, would realise £3,000 or £4,000. He (Mr Halcombe) had now gone over the estimated revenue, which amounted to £136,873, a very much larger sum than had ever been in the hands of the Province to expend since its formation Ho would now go into tho Estimates of expenditure for the current year. In doing so he might remark that tho ordinary Revonuo of the Province was very much in excess of the ordinary expenditure, independently of the land sales, and that thero would be a very largo amount available , for public works, which showed that when | after a long period land sales fell off the Province would still be in a prosperous condition. They might also look forward to a very large increase in the Customs. It had been said that Wellington mado no progress as compared with other Provinces, but when it was considered that the European population held a very small amount of the land in the Province, tho Conncil would see what was the cause of it. He referred to the Provinces of the other island. Tho object of the Government was to keep down the Departmental and Executive oxpenses as far as was eonsistont with a proper discharge of tho duties, and to have as large a sum as possible available for public works, and for the encouragement of agriculture and other reproductive occupations. The hon member then began with tho Executive department. In putting such a large sum as was down for clerical assistance in the Treasury department, it should be borne in mind that the Provincial Treasurer and Secretary had a very large amount of correspondence. [The hon member then read over other items.] With regard to tho increased expense of witnesses in trials, he said it depended on whether or notthe General Government gave to Wanganui what it was justlj entitled to — a Session of the Supreme Court. Tho Provincial Government would do all they could to procure such a result. The item of matron for tho gaol was a very necessary one, as it was found quite impossible to manage female prisoners, unless ouo of tho gentler sex was called in. The increase in the Judicial Department had been mado simply to keep pace with the growing necessities of the Province. With regard to the item for boatmen at Wanganui, ho (Mr Halcombe) had been informed on the best authority, that the Harbor Master and Pilot must have four instead of three boatmen placed on tho Estimates, and ho trusted the Council would agree to the alteration. An extra messenger had been added for tho public offices. The expenses of tho Survey Department were likely to be vei*y considerable. Last year the full amount appropriated had not been spent, but this year it was likely to ! bo exceeecled, in consequence of the survey of tho Manawatu Block. An increase had also been made in the salary of the Inspector of Roads, owing to the yearly increase of his work. It was hoped that the amount sot down for Schools together with tho amount to be realised from tho sale of Farm Reserves on School Lands, would enable tho Report of tho School Inspector to be carried out. One of the most important items was that for Roads. Before going into that matter, iv order to give hon. members somo idea of tho manner in which tho Executive arrived at its decisions with respect to roads, ho (Mr Halcombe) would lay down this principle ; that tho Government recognised two distinct methods of making roads, viz., either as main trunk lines of road (of which there were only two, which were distinctly defined in the act of the Council, viz., the road from Wellington to Waitotara, and the road from Wellington to Ahuriri, ( or as District Highway Roads. Altogether, an expenditure was proposed of £156,000. It might be asked how the Government proposed to meet that expediture with an estimated revenuo of only £136,000. He might mention that a great many of tho amouhts proposed to ba expended were not likely to be required dusing tho present financial year. A mong these wore tho £13,000 for the Wharf. It was hardly anticipated that tho whavf wouldbe completed within the twelvemonth, although tho Engineer had great hopes that it would be. Other sums not likkely to be required were £1000 for Immigration purposes, £3000 for the Provincial Government Buildings, £1500 for tho Manawatu Roads, £1000 foi 1 tho reclamation of land, £2000 for tho Electric Telegraph,- and £2500 for tho purchase of the Wesleyan Reserve. With regard to the Provincial Government Buildings £6000 was put down in the estimated expedituro, but it was probable that only £3000 would be spent on them. Tho whole ef the amount for the purchase of tho Wesleyan Resorvo would not bo required, as a large portion of the purchaso money would romain unpaid at interest. These made a sum of £24,000, which would not bo required during the present year, and would reduce to expenditure, soas "to makenearly balance with the estimated revenue. Of course hon members knew that the Superintendent deprecated placing larger sums on the Estimates than ho would be able to find funds for and if the Council was desirous of proposing any additions they should accept the necessity of trimming the Estimates, and then the Exccutivo would not be likely to be charged with not expending the votes of the Council. Mr Halcombo then moved that a, supply should be granted to Her Majosty for the public use of the Province. THE CHAIRMAN then reported progress and the Speaker resumed the chair. A discussion then arose a 9 to when tho report should be received. Mr LUDLAM suggested that it should bo received the next day. Mr HICKSON said he objected to any improper haste as there wore two bills before tho House which might require the remodelling of the estimates altogether. Mr DRANSFIELD made a few remarks. Mr LUDLAM said he did not sco tho advantage of delaying the passing of Estimates, which they wcro obliged to pass, if tho Government was to go on, and complained of the inconveniences to country members of delay. Mr BORLASE said it was quito clear that the speech he had heard Swould require to bo considered. On Friday night there would be some very important subjects before tho Council, and there ought not to be that haste which somo members desired. An honorablo member had spoken of tho inconvenience to country members ; they ought to bear some inconvenience for the honor and glory of representing tho people. Mr HUNTER said tho convenience of the country members ought to be consulted, and he trusted the Estimates would be considered the next day. Mr WALLACE said ho had not yet been ablo to discover that the country members wore in such hnsto, and ho thought the Provincial Sccrotary should bo allowed to name his own time. It had never been the practice to differ from the Government in naming tho time, for aonsidering the Estimates except in cases of the Government wishing to hurry them on. Mr BRANDON said his colleague would yield to the wishes of the Council on tho point. Tho Government was desirous of pushing on business and they would sit on Saturday and Monday if necessary. Mr WELCH said he did not see that the business of the session was being carried on very speedily and he thought it would meet the convenience of I tho country members if tho House were to meet on Saturday and Monday. Mr HALCOMBE said he would substitute " to-morrow night" for " next Tuesday" Mi- BRANDON gave notice that on Friday he would move the adjournment of the House till , Saturday. Mr LUDLAM suggested au afternooa meettog on Friday.

PBOPOSED ADDITION TO THE ESTIMATES: '■ The report ofjtlie Committee, of the proposed additions to the Estimates of Tuesday last was brought up. ■WANOANUI BIVEB BOADi The Houso then went again into Committee. __ Mr KELLS moved— • " That the Government be requested to place on the Estimates the sum of £300, as a special grant to assist the settlers in making the road on the loft bank of the Wanganui River in the Makxrikiri district." Carried. TOUAXABA BIVEB BANK BOAD. Mr KELLS also moved — " That the Government be requested to place on the Estimates the sum of £300, as a special grant to assist the settlers in making the River Bank road in the Touakara district." Carried. KABOBI BOAD. Mr JOHNSTON moved— "That his Honor the Superintendent be requested to place on the Estimates the sum of £500 for forming and widening the.Karori Road." Carried. EYANS 1 BAY. EOAD. Mr STOKES moved— "That the Superintendent be requested to place on the Estimates £120 as a grant for a road from the Town Belt, in continuation of Constable Street to Evans' Bay. Carried. The CHAIRMAN then reported progress, and the Speaker resumed the Chair. "WANOANTJI BEVENUE - BETUBN. , Mr KELLS moved— " That the Government be requested to furnish, a return of the revenue, ordinary, territorial, and otherwise, derived from the Wanganui district, from the Ist April, 1864, up to the 31st of March, 1865. Also, the sums of money voted for the use of the district during the same period, specifying the particular object for which sum was voted. | Also, the sums expended in the district during . the time specified, distinguishing between the sum voted and the sum expended in each, case." Return ordered. ATJDIT COMMITTEE. 1 , After some discussion, on the motion o£Mr W." TURNBULL, a Committee was appointed by ballot to examine the public accounts of tho Province for the year ending 31st March, 1865.. It consisted of Messrs Johnston, Dransfield, Hicskon, and the Mover. PROVINCIAL BUILDINGS. On the motion of Mr BRANDON" a Committee was appointed to recommend a site for the erection of the new Provincial Government Buildings. LAND EE3OI.UTIONS. After some other business of but little importance, it was agreed that 500 acres should be the j maximum size of tho small farm settlements proposed in Mr Ludlam's land resolutions of Friday I last. I MODE OF DEAIINO- WITH THE ESTIMATES, Mr LUDLAM moved the following address to the Superintendent — "Tho Council beg respectfully to submit to your Honor's consideration, that in their opinion it is of the greatest importance that the question as regards money votes placed on the Estimates by your Honor, in pursuance of addresses passed by the Council and passed by them, should be placed on a better and more satisfactory basis. " The Council are fully aware that the power of placing sums on the Estimates rests with your" Honor, in accordance with the 25th clause of the Constitution Act, they believe that the course pursued of not expending such votes except there is a surplus over the estimated revenue, is attended with great disappointment to the settlers in the different districts for which they are voted, because they aye led to believe by their Representatives that the sums (in many cases urgently required) have been sanctioned by your Honor and the Council, and that they will be expended on the proposed objects. "The Council would respectfully suggest to your Honor that tho following plan should be adopted in dealing with this question, viz : " That the Council should before asking your Honor to place certain sums on tho Estimates, consider the same and decide whother they are really required for the public service, and if your Honor decides to recommend them for appropriation they should, when passed by the Council, be expended on the objects for which they were voted. " The Council beg to assure your Honor that they have no wish to throw any difficulty in the way of carrying out those public works which are of importance to the progress of the Province, but they respectfully submit that most of the sums proposed by members of particular districts aro of equal importance to the settlers in those districts." Mr LUDLAM said the Superintendent was placed in a false position, by the Council placing too large sums on tho Estimates. It was quite open to his Honor to send down a message to the Council, to Bay that the sums were too large to be placod on tho Estimates. There were very few cases iv whichsumshadnot been placed on the Estimates by his Honor, but several cases of sums boingjplaced on the Estimates without ever being spent. It would bo wise for the Council to have a stauding order to the effect, that no address for a proposed addition sheuld be sent after a certain ' date to tho Superintendent. His Honor, would be placed in a fairer position if the proposed additions were discussed, and decided on finally, before being submitted to the Superintendent. It would then bo for tho Council to see that the Estimates were not exceeded. He would like to see the differences between his Honor and the Council settled and ho had therefore brought forward the address. Mr BRANDON said no one was more desirous of cordially noting with the Council than the Superintendent. There was this question. Were the votes of tho Council to take precedence of those votes proposed to them by the Superintendent.? Tho resolutions did not go far enough. That was a difficulty and tho Superintendent had already referred to it. Tho Superintendent acknowledged the right of the Council to alter the Estimates, as might bo scon by his addresses, but if after he had told them tho Estimated Revenue and tho Council proposed additions to the Estimates ; then tho Council should either strike out some of the Estimates, or provide for the increase by taxation. It would be wise for the Council to say, however, that the proposed additions should take precedence of certain other votes, which should be named. Uuless the resolutions went as far as that, the Superintendent would still be in tho same dilemma. He (Mr Brandon) as well as his colleague, was anxious to get over the difficulty, but it would be very much better that no additions should be proposed, until the Estimates were on the table ; then it should be decided which of the local district votes should take precedence, and what they should take pre- ! ceeclenco of. Mr Hunter proposed an adjournment. Mr LUDLAM said ho would be quite willing to agree to an adjoin*nment. The debate was then adjourned till the next day, • EECIAIMED LAND., On the motion of Mr LUDLAM a return re-. lating to the Reclaimed Land was ordered, and the House then adjourned till the next day.

aa«iMij^ i 'j^_»»^awao^^a»»r»i«gi«a>W'wi>iiii»i'"i»-uti'' Thursday, July 20xh, 1865. The Speaker took the Chair at 5 o'clock. PETITIONS. Mi* BORLASE presented a petition from the Manager of tho Wellington Mechanics' Institute, requesting aid j and Mr Ludlam presented one from David Hughey about a grant of landrefused. Referredto the Private Grievance Committoe. PROPOSED ADDITIONS TO THE ESTIMATES The House wont into Committee and various proposed additio is to the Estimates were fominlly pass-.'J. T-: Chairman then reported the resolutions anr 1 lie Speaker resumed the Chair. Hio EXCELLENCY THE GOVERNOR'S POLLING PLACE PROCL\MAHON. Mr HICKSON asked fir leave to amend his motion on the above Proclamation. Mr BRANDON called attention to the Act under which the Proclamation was made, and maintained that the Governor had not exceeded Ms powers. It was moreover, a matter entirely beyond the Council's control. Mr LUDLAM said it was quite competent for the inhabitants of the district to petition the General Assembly, but he thought the Council had no right to interfere. Mr Milne said that had not been the case formerly, for tho Provincial Council had interfered in a great mauy matters within the province of the General Assembly. On leave heviz given to Mr HICKSON to amend his motion, he said he had no desire to cast any reflection on his Excellency's Ministers, for he believed they wore the best Ministers which the colony had ever had, — nor yet on his Excellency himself. A case occurred in 1855, when a petition was presented to the House, praying that country people might vote in the town. His Honor the Superintendent then wrote a letter in reply to the Governor on the subject, the substance of which was against the prayer of the Petition. The lion member then read the letter and moved his amended motion, which was as follows : — " That this Council is of opinion that the Proclamation of his Excellency the Governor, dated the 11th July, by which an additional Polling Place is appointed in Wellington for the election of a member for the District of Wairarapa for the House of Representatives, is unconstitutional, if not illegal, and request that a copy of this resolution will be transmitted by the Speaker to the Colonial Secretary, requesting that Ministers will advise his Excellency to rescind the Proclamation." Mr WALLACE said this was one of those matters which was nearly connected with their political privileges. The idea of any freeholder in England being asked to vote in another district ■would be thought quite unconstitutional, and if this proceeding was allowed to pass unnoticed, there would be no knowing where it would end. It was tried in Nelson some time ago to enable voters to vote out of their districts, and he (Mr Wallace) hoped tho Council would express their opinion on the subject. If the Proclamation was carried, it would be derogatory to their position as Britons, whether it was according to the Act of the General Assembly or not. He denounced the Proclamation as a most illegal act. Mr RHODES said he was glad the motion had been brought forward, for such a Proclamation would not be allowed to stand in England for a moment. He trusted the Council would express a strong opinion on the subject. By the Proclamation there might be polling places for New Zealand both in Australia and England. Mr WELCH said that the inhabitants of tho Wairarapa looked upon the Proclamation as illegal and oppressive. He trusted tho Council would be of opinion that the Proclamation was illegal and unconstitutional.. Mr MASTERS gave his opinion that the Proclamation was illegal. Mr BRANDON c-aid the Proclamation could not be unconstitutional, for it was according to the Act, and hon. members had failed to show how it infringed their political rights. In his opinion, the question was, was it within the power of the Conncil to interfere in such a matter. It would certainly be unbecoming. Mr A. MILNE said, in former times the Government used to press upon the Council to express their opinions on matters solely within the province of the General Government, and had perhaps gone a little too far, as might be seen by reference to the blue books, but the Provincial Solicitor told them now that it would not be becoming to interfere in a matter belonging specially to the General Government. The resolution was meant merely as an expression of opinion, and he (Mr Milne) thought it might perhaps deter tho General Government and the Governor from acting so unconstitutionally. Mr PHARAZYN said he thought tte Proclamation unconstitutional, but he should vote against the motion, because he thought it was not in the power of the Council to interfere in such a matter. Mr BORLASE said, that the General Government had issued a certain Proclamation, which affected tho constituents of some member of the Council ; he thought therefore the Council had a right to express their opinion and remonstrate, if necessary. Was any district to be unconstitutionally treated and have no power for redress ? If not, what was the use of Provincial Councils ? Surely they had a right to ask of redress and remonstrate against any proceeding they thought unconstitutional or detrimental to their constituents. The argument in the Superintendent's letter was admirable in the extreme, and very closely reasoned, and he believed it was unanswerable. If the principle of tho Proclamation was admitted, polling places could be established for a district at any place out of that district, whatever might be the distance. He trusted the Council would support the views maintained by the Superintendent in his letter, and express a strong opinion against the course pursued by the General Government, who might possibly re-consider the matter. Mr HUNTER said lie thought the discussion extremely inconvenient on account of the amendment of the motion. Ho thought it an unfair argument to say that possibly polling places might be established for districts in places out of the Province, for in his opinion the General Government only wished to establish polling places in the Province. He also objected to the expression " illegal " in the motion and thought it would bo better to use more deferential language. Mr DRANSFIELD said the Provincial Solicitor blew hot and cold, for whereas he had spoken of this matter as out of the province of the Council lie had mentioned many matters in the Superintendent's address for which he was responsible, which belonged solely to tho General Government. Mr LUDLAM said that tho Proclamation was for polling places for members of tho House of Representativee and not of the Provincial Council. He therefore thought the Council should not interfero in the matter, but let the Electors of Wairarapa appeal if they thought necessary by petition or otherwise, to the House of Representatives. He expressed this view without necessarily giving his opinion as to the legality of the Proclamation. Mr WATT said that ho would have been quite prepared to support the motion in its original form and he trusted the Council would express its opinion in favor of that (the original) motion. Mr HICKSON said he had no objection to leave out the words " if not illegal." Mr BRYCE maintained the right of t]ie Council to give its opinion on this matter. Dr ALLISON said that in New Zealand a great many tilings were enacted, of which the public was not aware. He thought it a duty tho Council owed to tho public to express its opinion on different matters and h© should support the amended motion,

I Mv HICKSON said in reply, that lie was surI prised to see tho Provincial Solicitor objecting to the view taken by the Superintendent in his letter. Ho (Mr Hickson) had signed v Petition formerly for tho appointment of a fresh polling place, but he had been convinced of his error by the lcti ter of the Superintendent. He had not the slightest intention to cast any imputation on His Excellency's Ministers, but ho thought the Council had a right to express some opinion on the matter. Tho House then divided. Ayes. Noes. Messrs Allison Messrs Brandon ! Borlase Jl'nlcombo Burt Hunter Bryce Kclls Dransfield Ludkm Fagan W. Milne Galloway Pharazyn Hickson Stokes Johnston Tnrnbull McDouull Watt (10) A. Milne Mast ers Reading Rhodes J. Taylor Welch Wallace (17) The motion as amended Avas consequently carried. TOTE OF THANKS TO MR JUSTICE JOHXSTOX. Mr HALCOMBE moved a vote of thanks to His Honor Mr Justice Johnston for placing the Supreme Court at the disposal of the Council. He said he was sure it would meet with their most unanimous approval. Every one would appreciate the courtesy of his Honor in placing the Supreme Court at the disposal of the Council. Mr BORLASE seconded the motion. The Council was without a house, and his Honor had furnished them with one in that public spirited manner which characterized him. Carried unanimously. The House then ajourncd for hnlf-an-hour. PILOT STATION REMOVAL BILL. — SECOND HEADING. On the re-assembling of the nousc Mr Brandon stated that it hud been found necessary to remove the Pilot Station from its present site to one close by which was more convenient, which the Bill would empower the- Superintendent; to exchange for tho present one. MESSAGE PEOJI HIS HONOR THE SUPERINTENDENT. The SPEAKER said hehad just received a message from his Honor assenting to the proposed additions to the Estimates. riLOT station bill, (Second Reading, Contind.) The above Bill was read a Second time, and ordered to be read a Third time on Tuesday next. LOAN REPAYMENT BILL. The House went into Committee on this Bill. Mr HICKSON suggested that the money should be raised within the Province. Mr BRANDON said there was no obligation to raise the Loan in any particular place. Mr JOHNSTON said that the first Loan was negotiated with Messrs Gladstone, and the second with the Union Bank of Australia with a much better result. He would wish the Loan to be taken by sonic Bank, such as the Union Bank or the Bank of New South Wales. After some discussion the Bill went through Commitle with very little alteration. ESTIMATES. The House went into Committee of Supply. Mr RHODES said that ho thought a sum should be added to the Superintendent's salary, making it £1000 instead of £800. The removal of the Seat of Government would render .the increase desirable. Mr PEARCE said he was startled to find that £200 only, was the addition proposed. He would have been glad to lieav a larger sum proposed. Mr A. MILNE said that if a precedent like the present was established, it would be difficult to come back to the original sum. The Superintendent was a very able man, but as Municipal Institutions were proposed to be established" his labor woidd then bo very much less. Mr DRANSFIELD said although he differed from His Honor in some respects, he thought lie was quite worthy of the sum proposed. He had great pleasure in supporting the motion. The SPEAKER said that although he would be most happy to concur in the proposal, he wished to point out that it was not in the power of the Council to increase any of the votes. Mr RHODES said he would propose a motion instead. Mr WELCH said lie would be most happy to support the proposed increase, but if the Superintendent's salary were to be increased the Clerk's should be increased also. He also objected to the present manner of dealing with the Estimates. Mr LUDLAM then proposed that tho manner of dealing with the Estimates should be referred to the Speaker. i The CHAIRMAN then reported progress, and j tho Speaker resumed tho chair. I The SPEAKER ruled that it was out of the power of the Council to increase the Estimates. They might, however, suspend the Standing Orders. s Mr LUDLAM objected to the suspension of the Orders, except in easas of emergency. Mr RHODES stated, that on previous occasions an increase of the Estimates had been agreed to. Tho SPEAKER said this was the first case which had come under his notice, and ho had decided according to the rules that guided the House of Commons. Mr BORLASE suggested that tho Standing Order should be suspended. Mr LUDLAM said he doubted whether it would be constitutional to increase the Estimates although the Standing Orders were suspended. Mr A. MILNE considered the Standing Order a very wise one, and said that the Council would do well to abide by it. Mr BRANDON said that no Standing Order should be suspended without thcro was some very good reason for it. The Superintendent had been elected now for the fourth time as Superintendent ■ The SPEAKER said there was no question bofore the House. After some discussion, the Standing Order T^as suspended and the House went again into Committee. Mr RHODES proposed that the Superintendent's salary should bo raised from £800 to £1,000. Mr LUDLAM said that ho had an objection to the proposed increase as it might lead to extravagance in other items. Mr MASTERS said he would record his vote in favor of the proposed increase, as he thought in the altered state of the Province the office required it. The Committee then divided, when the numbers were — Ayes, 21 ; Noes, G. The motion was consequently carried. Mr WELCH proposed an addition of £50 to the salary of tho Superintendent's Clerk, giving various reasons for the increase. Mr HUNTER said the Govecnmcnt had prepared tho Estimates and were supposed to have put down a sufficient sum. This item differed very much from the last one, for it could not bo supposed that tho Superintendent could propose an addition to his own salary. Mr READING and Mr HICKSON objected to tho proposed increase. Mr BORLASE said, the object of tho hon member was no doubt to put an end to shams, for the gentleman who held the office of Clerk to tho Superintendent was also Curator of the Observatory. Ho did not like to see a man in the service of the dovermnent holding two offices. After

some further observations Mr Borlaso said he would consent to the proposed addition provided tho Superintendent's Clerk held that office only. Mr LUDLAM said he objected to its not appearing on the Estimates that the two offices were held by one person. Mr BRANDON made some observations on the duties of the Curator of tho Observatory, stating that they were by no means so light as some mombers supposed. Mr PHARAZYN sn : d, that tho Superintendent's Clerk was not only very efficient in that office, but also in his other office as Curator of the Observatory. Mr HUNTER said that the object of tho motion, instead of being to increase the salary of the Superintendent's Clerk, was in reality to decrease it by taking away his appointment as Curator of the Observatory. After some further discussion, tho item of the original salary was passed without alteration. Mr LUDLAM said additional clerical assistance in the Treasurer's Department would be desirable. Mr IIICKSOX concurred in that view. Mr LUDLAM said, perhaps the best way would be to postpone the items for the Government to consider them. Mr BRANDON advised that tho Council should adopt Mr Lndlam's last suggestion. j Mr WELCH opposed the addition for clerical ' assistance on the ground, that by that course nothing would have been saved by abolishing the office of Provincial Treasurer. After some further discussion, the items were postponed. On the proposal to pass the items for the Waste Lands Commissioner's Office, Mr LUDLAM proposed that they should be postponed, as their administration might shortly be materially altered. The items were then postponed. Mr LUDLAM proposed the postponement of the items referring to the Council, as he proposed on another occasion to raise the question of the payment of the members. j Carried. Mr DRANSFIELD moved for an increase o j £25 in tho salary of tho Inspector of Police. And on the question being put there was an equal division, on which the Chairman gave his casting vote in favor of the Ayes. Mr WELCH said he intended te move for an increase in the payment of the privates of the Police Force, and he would propose an increase of Is per day in the pay of the sergeants. Mr HICKSON proposed that the consideration of the items should be postponed. The pay of tho police was undoubtedly too small. Mr LUDLAM proposed that the Chairman should report progress. Carried. The SPEAKER then resumed the chair, WANGANUI GAOLER. Mr WATT asked the Provincial Secretary, if it was tho the intention of tho Government, to appoint a gaoler for Wanganui. Mr IIALCOMBE replied, that as the members for Wanganui, were going to have an interview with the Superintendent, they would be able to mention the matter to him. PROPOSED ADDI'ITONS TO THE ESTIMATES. On the recommendation of the Committeo, the proposed additions to the Estimates of Wednesday last, were adopted. ADJOURNED DEBATE OX Ml LTTDLAM'S RESOLUTION^ Mr HUNTER said he trusted tho Council would grapple with this matter and decide on the method of dealing with tho Estimates, as on it depended the harmonious working together of the Council and Superintendent. The plan proposed by Mr Ludlam was before the Council. The present method of dealing with tho Estimates Avas most unsatisfactory. Each district tried to get hold of the public money, without regard to the interests of tho Province. A member for a district should satisfy himself of the necessity of any woi'k pressed, upon his attention by his constituents. If a land tax was proposed, as wa9 suggested, he believed, by Mr Ludlam, to raise the revenue, he thought it woidd be very detrimental to the interests of the Province, and serve to keep both capital and population from it More caution and more care should bo exercised in asking for these appropriations and they should be most carefully considered by the Council unnecessary opposition should not be offered to the Government, and he trusted the Council would study the interests of the Province at large. Mr PEARCE said it did not appear to him very clear why the address should be presented to his Honor the Superintendent, for it seemed to him that the Council had the power to adopt those measures recommended in the address. There were many sums of money on the " Appropriation Act" which were for permanent works, for which he considered the money ought to be raised by loan and there would bo plenty then to satisfy the wants of the various districts. He deprecated a land tax, for lie considered they were sufficiently taxed already, and they might very easily negotiate another loan, for their present loans amounted to only £10S,000, while their yearly revenue was £130,000. MrWATTsaidhe considered the representatives of the districts in the Council, were the proper persons to judge of the wants in those place 3, at the same time there was a difficulty in proposing an addition to the Estimates. He would therefore support the resolution and he trusted it would be able to meet the difficulty. Mr PHARAZYN said ho agreed with the resolution as an expression of opinion, but ho did not sec that it would lead to any practical result ; there was no doubt that a great deal of confidence should bo placed in the Government, in tho mattor of tho Estimates. Mr WALLACE said he thought the resolution was vague, and that the passing of it would lead to no practical result. Mr A. MILNE said ho considered the discussion of this matter most desirable. The hon member then remarked on the manner in which the country members proposed additions to the Estimates. Mr DRANSFIELD said that this question was not quite so diflieultas it appeared. If his Honor I would only givo up some of his little hobbies, no doubt the proposed additions to the Estimates I could bo easily assented to. It was quite time for the Government to grapple with this question, for they had assented to Estimates sometimes and never spent the money. There was no organised opposition to the Government ; the Government was in fact the factious opposition (a laugh) for opposing the wishes of the Council. Dr ALLISON said ho did not sco that the resolution would be productive of any good. Mr BRi.'CE said he thought it quite competent for the Council to roapportion the revenue if necessary. Mr LUDLAM said in reply, that ho did not think there were any serious objections to his resolutions. He was not prepared to say that any proposed additions to tho Estimates should i ako precedence of his Honor's estimates, but the Council ought, to arrive at some definite plan. The Superintendent would again be placed in a false position, and the country members would be disappointed. It likewise placed the Superintendent in a much falser position to send him proposed Estimates, which the Council had only passed pro forma. The country members should not come to the Council with such narrow views as to seek for nothing else but tho benefit of their own districts. Tho members wore there to study tho interests of the whole Province. With regard to tho land tax, tho present time was inopportune to discuss it ; he, however, was not of opinion that it would keep away population ; lie considered it would bo a most advantageous thing. One member proposed that this question should be met by loans— those would not bo consented to either

by his Honor or . the Governor. The Province ought to keep within its means. It had bora said the resolution was vague, but at any rate he had proposed a definite- plan. He believed that if the address was passed it would elicit from his Honor his views, and probably some useful result might be arrived at.' The resolution was then passed without a division, and the Council adjourned till the following evening.