CONTINUATION OF WANT OF CONFIDENCE DEBATE.

Wanganui Chronicle, Volume XXIII, Issue 9456, 22 July 1881, Page 2

CONTINUATION OF WANT OF CONFIDENCE DEBATE.

After replying to a number of Mr Wakefield's remarks, Mr Beadeii Wood said if Mr Ormond had not moved an amendment he would have done so. Last year the Government had withdrawn or dropped all their proposals without going to the country or resigning, and why could they not do so again when they found how very distasteful those proposals were. However, the passage of the present Bill was now impossible, whatever the fate of the amendment, and as for consequences, sufficient for the day was the evil thereof. The question of local government was evidently not in Ministers' original programme for the session, as it was not introduced in the Governor's speech. Like retrenchment last session, it had been forced on them, or brought in for an election cry. As to all that had been said about Ministers settling the Native difficulty, and Tawhaio's submission, he had received the following telegram from an influential member of the King party — "Do not believe anything you see in newspapers or are told from the Government or any other person. At the end of the movement you will know further." He opposed the Government proposals, because they really meant further taxation and further borrowing. He denied the truth of the statements about the prosperous state of the colony. "Wages had fallen, and yet there were unemployed. Money could not find profitable investment. Eating Crown lands by taxing the people to pay the rates on their own lands, and rating Native lands held under a Native title, he considered unjust. The proposed subsidies or grants of £3 for £1 were purely imaginary, as there were no funds out of which to pay the money. As an alternative between more borrowing, further taxation, and complete stagnation, so far as the North Island at least was concerned, he intended to bring down a resolution in favour of devoting £200,000 out of the remains of the public works fund to open up the Crown lands estate, which had cost a million to purchase, by constructing roads and bridges. This would render the land available for settlement, and provide a continuous land fund to repay the cost of purchase. He would allocate £50,000 worth to Auckland, and £50,000 to Wellington, and so on, but none to Taranaki, which had really had too much. This money he would leave to the local bodies to expend. Mr Oliver said he had never known a Ministry threatened with defeat on such a paltry issue. Had the old Provincial system been in existence, the colony -would now have been bankrupt. He strongly opposed any return to it in any shape, and he warmly supported the Government proposals. If a dissolution took place now, without redistribution of representation, another dissolution would be necessary in six months, and for all this cost and trouble Mr Ormond would be responsible. Mr Beethani moved the adjournment, and the House rose at 12.45. Thursday, July 21. The debate on the no- confidence motion was resumed by Mr Sutton, who criticised Mr Wood's speech, contending that it did not touch the real question at issue, and defended the House against the imputation that it did not possess capacity to redress all grievances brought before it. The position in which Mr Ormond had placed himself was a most anomalous one, and the country would blame him and any pally with whom he had allied himself for the action taken, in defeating for another session at least the passage of redistribution, so anxiously looked for by the country, Mr Russell also spoke in favour of the Government. The effect of the motion, if earned, would be to bring into office a class of men whose avowed policy was to restore Provincialism. The policy enunciated by Mr Saunders was impolitic in the highest degree, and the complaint about want of means of redress was unfounded. No complaint against County Councils or Road Boards

had come from without ; all the cry 1 1 against them had originated within that i House. But for the premature repeal of i the New Provinces Act of 1857 he quite J believedthatthis difficulty would not have i arisen, as it contained ample powers of < local self-government in accordance 1 with the principle of the counties system. He approved of the principle of the i Roads Construction Bill, and suggested 1 some slight modifications in the Rating Bill. : Mr Seymour recognised in the pro- : posals of the Government an attempt to < give finality in the assistance to be ren- i dered to local bodies towards their works. He defended Marlborough at considerable length from the aspersions cast upon its Provincial administrations by Mr Saunders, and concurred in the opinion expressed by the previous speaker as to the favourable results which would have followed a more lengthened experience of the New Provinces Act. They had local government enough, and he did not see what further machinery of that kind was wanted. Mr Taiaroa condemned the rating of Native land. The House adjourned at 5.30 p.m. Evening Sitting. The House resumed at 7.30 o'clock. Mr BUNNY strongly condemned the amendment, and supported the Government. He thought a change of Ministry at the present time would be inopportune and disastrous, and he could not give a vote likely to so result. If the present Government went out no one could say who would come in. He thought Abolition had been a great mistake, and so far agreed with Mr Ormond, but it was done and could not be undone, and now their duty was to do the best they coxild to improve the institutions they had. Mr Weston thought the amendment did not bring the question of the past administration of the Ministry into question on the direct issue it raised. He could not vote for it : at the same: time he could not approve of the present proposals of the Government. Either they went too far or not' far enough. The Government should gracefully withdraw their proposals. Really, there were no powers proposed to be given to local bodies which they did not already possess. He could not approve of using the Public Trust funds in the way proposed for local government purposes. Doing so would impair the credit of the colony. He condemned the Public Works Board. He objected strongly to the proposal to rate Crown Lands, and read a telegram from the County Council of Grey Valley objecting to the proposal that the County would, under the proposals, have £2400 with which to maintain upwards of 100 miles of main roads. He also objected to the rating of Native lands without the concurrence of the Natives. He did not think the issues raised by the present debate sufficiently important to justify going to the country upon. If the proposals were adopted this session probably they would be repealed next session by the new [Parliament, and no harm could be done by letting them stand over. He characterised Sir George Grey's Bill as even more wild and visionary than the Treasurer's proposals. It was really a scheme of separation in disguise. The country would never accept such a scheme. He especially condemned the proposal to have elective Judges. The reference Sir George Grey had. made to the present Judges was unkind, unjust, cruel, and utterly unfounded. He thought the House was too cumbrous a machine to do the work devolving on it now, and that the Government were called on to do a great deal they should not be troubled with. This being so, he thought the proposals of Mr Saunders might be moulded into a useful form. Bather than propose taxation in the manner proposed, he would prefer increased Customs duties, or a tax on wool. While condemning the Government policy, and recognising in Mr Saunders's scheme the elements of practicability, he recognised that Government had had much \mpleasant work to perform and had done it well. He was not going now, on the issue raised, to eject them from office aud hurry on a general election, to be probably followed in a few months by a second election, at an enormous cost to the colony. In a few months they would all, in ordinary course, go to the country, and to precipitate a dissolution now was unnecessary, and would be mischievous. He should vote against the amendment, and if the Government Bills were still pressed on he would also vote against them. ■, Sir Gkorge Grey explained that his remarks about the Judges were made in consequence of remarks made by a Judge of known centralists tendencies to a jury a few days before. He would have no hesitation in repeating the statement under similar circumstances. Mr Hall strongly condemned the remarks made by Sir George Grey about the Judges, and which had been made worse by his explanation. He denied there was any public demand for a change in their governing institutions. All that was desired was for the assistance necessary to enable existing institutions satisfactorily to perform the duties devolving on them. He defended the action of the Government in stopping public works, and showed how necessary such had been to preserve the credit of the colony. Notwithstanding that the drag had been put on, two millions had been spent on public works during the past twelve months. As long as this House retained, as it should do, the sole power of legislation, it would be impossible to relieve it of dealing with local questions. He defended the existing local bodies, as distributing the work of local government amongst the people, and producing excellent results. Sir G. Grey's proposal was to establish not nine but twenty provinces. At considerable length he criticised Sir George Grey's proposals. Referring to Mr Saunders's proposals, he expressed perfect readiness to go to the country on the question of the restoration of the Provinces. In reply to Mr Wood's assertion that the local government question had not been in the original programme of the session, hejquoted the Governor's speech to show, by its reference to the Eill for local public works,that their proposals were by no means sudden or unthought of. He pointed out the large powers possessed by counties under the present system, and he admitted that the Road Boards were even more useful bodies than the County Councils. If fuller powers were not possessed by these bodies, to obviate the necessity for constant reference to Wellington, it was owing to the action of the Provincial party in the House, who had twice prevented a Road Boards Bill being passed. If the people wanted a system to work out their own destinies in local government, the present system afforded the opportunity for extension and improvement towards that end. The Government desired to decentralise as far as they possibly could, but would strenuously resist the cutting up the colony into a number of petty public and useless states. They proposed to extend and improve the County Councils and Road Board system, to give them increased powers by delegation and and otherwise, and to do away with the necessity for frequent reference to Wellington They also proposed to give these bodies reasonable pecuniary assistmce to enable those bodies to perform their functions. Such were the Government proposals. They did not pretend

that they were perfect, and they in Committee gladly accept any am^Bj ments calculated to make thena^M perfect. If Mr Ormond had only v^^B these proposals to be relegated t^B| constituencies, he should have v^B[ his motion in a less hostile fa^^B Unless Government possessed a maj^^H in the House they would not ende^^B to carry a Redistribution Bill thr^^B If the present motion was carried, <^H Mr Ormond must take office wit^Bj new friends, or they must go t«^B country on the present basis of r^BB sentation. Mr Ormond could not e^B the responsibility of the action hi^Bj taken. In conclusion, he felt it hii^B? pleasant duty to say that Mr Or^B] had acted very wrongly in movin^Bj amendment without giving notice t^H Government, amongst whose supp^^B he had up till then been numbereA^B could find nothing in Mr Orrn^B speech to his constituents which have led Government to expect conduct. The very essence of j^B government was that members party should trust each other. M^B mond's desertion, without notice^B served the most severe condemna^B Whatever the result of the division^B he could look back to the adminj^H tion of the last two years with sat^B] tion, and with gratitude to the geo^B support given them by their p^B which had enabled the Govemme^B achieve whatever good results ha^H tended their administration. (Le^H