HOUSE.

Waka Maori, Volume 12, Issue 22, 7 November 1876, Page 278

HOUSE.

NATIVE DEPARTMENT. Mr. Sheehan proposed that the amount set down on the estimates for this department (£22,332 18s. 9d.) be reduced by £IO,OOO. We should like to give Mr. Sheehan's speech in full on this subject, and the Premier's answer thereto, also the speeches of other honorable members; but we have not space to do so, and, as this is our last issue, our Maori readers must therefore be content to remain in ignorance of what was said, or acquire the information from some other source. Referring to the Native Assessors, Mr. Sheehan said, " There was another head under which sweeping reductions should be made, and that was the Native Assessors. Two-thirds of these officers were perfectly useless, and in a great many instances the positions were held by men of inferior rank, the leading chiefs and men of rank refusing to accept positions at the hands of the Government. Many of the Assessors received salaries ranging from £2O to £SO. He knew many of them himself; and although he had had four or five years' experience of the working of of the system, he had failed to discover any good work that these people did. They were very often unfit for the appointment; they were often not acceptable to the Native people, and were men who ought not to be intrusted with positions of this kind. It simply amounted to spending so much money for a purpose that was entirely useless. There was a time, perhaps, when the flour-and-sugar policy was in full swing, when it was desirable to employ these bribes for the purpose of keeping some of these people from becoming obstructive and going into rebellion ; but that time had entirely ceased, and they ought now to do away with these Assessors, so that the Natives should be brought under the same law as the Europeans, and become accustomed to having their cases determined in the European Courts. As a matter of fact, these Assessors' Courts were simply burlesques. The people who presided _Q£er them were entirely ignorant of the law/""." 7" . ~ Then there was another item, under the head of ' Gl-eneral Contingencies,' which might very well be struck off- — the item of £4OO for carrying on the Maori newspaper. The Natives had shown that they were capable of carrying on a newspaper of their own, which enjoyed treble the circulation of the Government paper. He hoped the experiment of reduction would be continued, and that the department would be done away with next year."

Mr. Taiaiioa did not think there was any need whatever for doing away with the sum voted for and lor officers in the position of Mr. Kemp as Commissioners and others. He thought the Maori Assessors had done right in the M.aori districts in their action with the Magistrates. If the House did away with these Native Assessors they would see what great trouble would arise through it, for the European Magistrates would not be able to do anything in the Native districts. The salaries paid to the European Commissioners were far in excess of those paid to the Native Assessors. Formerly th.e revenue of New Zealand was decreasing, but now it was increasing; works were increasing, and population was increasing: yet it was -proposed to do away with the votes for the Natives. "He taought the vote should be left as it was, because the Government were working towards reductions. If the Assessors were done away with, perhaps they would come to the House for compensation for the loss of their work which they had undertaken at the instruction of the Government. Some of the Assessors were appointed by the Government under warrant ; he knew some in the Middle Island. A great deal of money was derived from the Natives; and if honorable members calculated it, they would see that the Natives contributed very largely to the revenue. "With reference to the schools, he would not like to see them done away with, because they had been established through the action of the House by the Native Schools Act. In both islands, the Maoris had agreed that schools should be erected for the education of their children. The children had not yet been able to have a fair chance, and it was now proposed to limit the sum set apart for education. Perhaps next year it would be proposed to do away with the Native schools altogether, and he thought the schools ought to be put upon a permanent footing. Some of the Assessors had been appointed at the request of their tribes. He did not know much with regard to the Assessors of the North Island, but that had been done in the South Island. The honorable member for Rodney said the Assessors were not approved of by the people, and perhaps he referred to the Assessors of the North Island. Last year he himself asked that the salaries of the Assessors in the Middle Island should be increased, because they drew very small salaries, some as small as £lO a year, and some £4O or £SO. He did not think that was money at all. If the Committee were going to do away with any, let them do away with all at once and not vote any money. Do not let them take away £1 and leave £l. Do not let them take away one £SO and leave another. He would support these items of Native expenditure as they stood from beginning to end. Mr. Takamoana now had something to talk about, as this matter referred to the* Natives. He approved of what the Premier said, that the Native Minister had done good actions. He was right in saying the Native Minister had done good work. His own interpretation of that good work was, that the House should set to work to appoint new Assessors altogether. With reference to the Native Assessors, if they remained as they were it would not be right. The honorable member for the Southern Maori Dis-

triet was right in what he said about the Assessors' but he referred only to those in the Middle Island What he had said about them would not apply to the Assessors in the North Island. The Assessors whom the Native Minister had appointed for this island had been appointed for the purpose of wheedling the Natives to their destruction. If the House were to appoint new Assessors in their place it would be better, so that the people might have an opportunity of selecting wise men to conduct their affairs. With reference to the Assessors that were now in office the honorable member for Eodney was right in say! ing that the Natives did not know them. There were no Assessors in his district appointed by the Native Minister. He was the Assessor there, and it was through his influence that things had been kept quiet. He did not know who the Assessors were in the district between Wairarapa and Turanga. He was the only Assessor he was aware of who had dealt with troubles that had arisen in that district. If any Assessors were to be kept in this island let none be left on the East Coast, but let all the Assessors in that district be done away with. If it were left to the Assembly to decide and approve of the recommendations of the people as to the Assessors they would like appointed, he would agree to that. It was through the action of the Native Minister's landpurchasing matters that trouble had begun to arise in this island. It was he (Mr. Takamoana) who prevented after the affair of Rawiri Waiaua; the Assessors did not act in that way. It would be right for the House to appoint the Assessors. It would then be seen that the people would not select Assessors who had been appointed by the Native Minister; they would appoint others in their place. Then matters would be done in the House as if there was only one race. Although the Minister might say that matters were going on well now, he (Mr. Takamoana) said No; everything was going on wrong. He had received many letters from different tribes on this island against the Native Minister. It would take him perhaps a whole day to discuss that matter in the House, and to produce all the letters which had been written to him against the Native Minister. The only two members on the eastern and western sides of the island were himself and Hoani Nahe, and they were the only ones who had received a great number of letters against the Native Minister. They had not shown to members of that House numerous letters they had received against the Native Minister. Therefore he said to the Committee, " Do not listen to what the Minister of the Government has been telling you, but listen to me, as I live among the Maoris." Let a new system be instituted by the House with reference to these Assessors, and also to the schools. It was three years since he commenced to establish a school. The fault of the Native schools rested with the Government. Perhaps schools in other parts of the island were carried on properly under the Government. He had not seen atiy contributions from the Government to his school yet. It was his money that was paid up to the time that the teachers left the school. The House should start a new system altogether about these schools. There were two schools at Napier that were not right. The Government did not assist him in his contributions towards the school. He had often asked them to assist him, but they had only given money in name. The Maori children who were living in European schools had been dealt with very badly there. He took two children away from death that were attending a school in Wellington. One belonged to the Arawas, and one to the Ngatiporou. It was only when they were nearly dead that the Government were returning them to their homes. He said

they might as well leave them alone; they were just as good as burying them, putting them on board a vessel in the state they were in. It was through hi a getting a doctor in Wellington for the Ngatiporou boy that he was saved. Therefore he said that the House should institute some new course in reference to these schools, so that proper people should be appointed who would not be in the same position as the present persons, who were only acting as a decoy on behalf of the Government. Let the Assessors be appointed under their own rights, and not under the rights of the Government at all. He was not advocating doing awav with these ; but what he objected to was leaving them under the present system. He was very dark on account of this work, although they might look upon him in a wrong light. He said last year that perhaps all the members of the House were not chiefs. It was on account of those who were ignorantly pressing themselves against the Maoris whenever they rose to speak. He heard the chiefs in the House expressing themselves in favour of the Maoris, but the ignorant ones used to say "No." Therefore he said in some things he would not be afraid of them at all. Some of the laws which they passed he did know about perhaps he might be ignorant, and perhaps he might not. There was a "disturbance at present in his own place, and he said that the lands about which the dispute arose would not be returned —never. It would only be by force of arms that this land would be put in a proper position. He was not afraid of their intimidations or those of the Government now. It was well that he should suffer. It would only be through the destruction of those people that the land would pass from them; because it was owing to the wrong beginning at the Native Land Court that the difficulty occurred. He was waiting to hear something about it in the House. The matter he referred to was the dispute at Omarunui. It was because he had heard nothing from the House about it that he referred to it now; for he heard that things were being kept quiet here, that everything was right here, and that the Government officers were intimidating people at Napier. Therefore it was he let them know he was not going to be intimidated into giving that place up. It would only be by the death of the people that it would be given up. By the people he meant the Maoris, including himself. He did not know what course would be taken with regard to the action in the Supreme Court in reference to that land. He was not the one who asked that an investigation should take place. He said to Sutton that he would have to kill the people before the land was taken. He told him that first. He referred to this now, because he had been told about it by Europeans. He asked the House not to forget this thing. If it was their wish to destroy the people, very well; let them be destroyed. Do not let it be left until the matter grew worse, and then take action against the Maoris. He did not think that grievance was confined to that particular place. Such things existed all over the island. If it was determined to send those people off, he would ask that no action should be taken until he could go to England and' make inquiries himself about it. It was through that fighting at Napier that he said he would go to England. If the law under which action was taken came from England, he would agree to give it up. They should not think he was saying what was incorrect. As soon as this session was over, he would suggest to all tho tribes that he should be sent to England. If they did not agree to send him there, then he would come back to that House again; but. if they did send him Home, he would.not come back here again, because he was so dark on account , of the numerous bad things that

had been done in that House. At other times he had other gods and other customs; but the Europeans came and brought their religion, and under that religion he saw that they were trviiig to plunder that island. He did not think that things were being done in accordance with the law of that G-od whom the Europeans worshipped. He would o- 0 to England himself and see if the roots of those 3 laws were there which the Europeans were making here. He again said that some fresh system should be adopted. Do not let matters be continued according to the Native Minister's course of action. If things had to be commenced afresh, then he would say that matters would not be evil. If Ministers said that things were to be left as they were, he and the Maoris thought everything would go wrong. Numerous petitions had been sent in against the Native Minister, and some of them had been presented and laid on the table of the House. With reference to Native Assessors and their appointme'nt, some of the Assessors in the Wairarapa district had been intimidated on account of their wanting to hold on to the land. Also on account of their objecting to the sale of the "Wairarapa Lake, Assessors were told they were going to be dispensed with if they maintained their objection. There were many of them who had been dealt with in that way. Therefore he thought new Assessors should be appointed in their place. That was all he had to say. Mr. Osmond spoke at considerable length. In referring to the Native Assessors, he said, "He would refer to the assertion of the honorable member for the Eastern Maori District that these Assessors were people of no position. He did not know the names of the Assessors in many districts, but he had in his hand a list of those in the Ngatiporou tribe, of which, he knew something. He found there the name of every principal chief of the tribe as a Native Assessor—men infinitely above the honorable member, both in position and everything else. There were Mokena Kohere, a member of the Upper House ; liopata Wahawaba, the man who fought so nobly on our side; Hotene Porourangi, the honorable member's antagonist for a seat in the House; Wikiriwhi, another chief from the East Cape; Hen are Potae', and some others—all the principal men of that tribe. In the Taupo district, he knew of Poihipi, chief of Taupo ; Hohepa Tamamutu, the. second man in the district ; and Eawiri Kawhia. He did not think the Natives would say these were not leading men ; and no doubt the same thing would be found in running down the list. Therefore the assertion should not be made that the list of Assessors was composed of persons of no position, and who were mere hangerson of the Government." Mr. Ear ait i an a. Takamoana, in another speech, said, in referring to the Native Assessors, that some of them were persons of low degree, who were not able to take their part either in fighting or in business of any kind. They were not able to do anything at the time of fighting in Napier in the way of putting a stop to it. Mr. Taiaeoa wished to say a few words, because the matter had become somewhat confused on account of the land question being introduced into it. The question before the Committee was as to the salaries of the Magistrates and Assessors, and the money to be voted for them. We are under the necessity of omitting a portion of Taiaroa's speech from want of time and space. With regard to the Assessors, he said, ." honorable member for the Eastern Maori District said the Assessors appointed by the

Government were ignorant and of no account. The honorable member did not refer particularly to the Assessors m his own district, but to all Assessors. Now he (Mr. Taiaroa) knew that all the Assessors that had been appointed by the Government from the Ngapuhi had been selected by their chiets from the respective hapus ; and all the Assessors that had been appointed in the North, from the JNorth Cape to Auckland, were chiefs. Very few people of inferior degree had been appointed by the Government. The Assessors at Waikato and Thames, Major Te Wheoro and Taipari, those at anganui, Major Kemp and others, were chiefs, lhere were none higher in rank than they were; and those at Napier, Tareha and Renata, were also chiefs But these people were not appointed by the present "V j T e . Minister. They were appointed by previous Administrations and by Sir G-. Grey. Most of the Assessors m the Middle Island were appointed before £ McLean became Native Minister, and others he (Mr. Taiaroa) had got appointed since he had been in Parliament. The great bulk of the Assessors were appointed long ago ; they were people who had a knowledge of the affairs of their hapus, but they were not supposed to have a great amount of information about other matters outside. People wanted to know what these Assessors did. They did a great deal of good which could not be done by European Magistrates. They settled a great many disputes among themselves in their own runangas. He was not in a position to say what they had been able to do in putting down fighting, because each hapw had different laws. Neither were they in the position of Europeans, who have only one head, the Queen and the Parliament; each tribe was subject to its own laws, and every one knew that disputes amongst the Natives could not be settled if the Assessors were done away with. He hoped the votes would be passed as they stood."

Tuesday, 17th October, 1876. On this day the House again went into Committee of Supply. Mr. Sheehan moved, That the vote for salaries and contingencies of Native Department be reduced by the sum of £5,000. He made a long speech on the subject, attacking the Native Minister, and generally condemning the Native Department altogether. The one bright spot, he said, in the whole thing was the Native School Department. Mr. Hoani Nahe objected to the Native Assessors of the Thames. He said they strengthened the hands of the Government in the purchase of Native lands before the Crown grants were issued for them. Mr. Tawhiti rose to speak on behalf of the Ngapuhi in reference to the remarks made about Sir Donald McLean. That gentleman had been in the Northern District very many times, and he had never seen him do anything wrong. The Land Purchase Commissioners did not go up to the district secretly. They went up openly, and stated openly that they came there to purchase land, and that they were willing to give lOd. an acre. None of the Ngapuhi people said it was wrong, or objected on account of the smallness of the price. They all agreed to take the lOd. an acre. He heard now for the first time that the Ngapuhi had objected to the Native Minister. He spoke now because he heard that the people at this end of the island were speaking against the Native Minister, and because those in the North might possibly follow in the same course. The honorable member for Rodney blamed Sir Donald

McLean for the Waifcara war, but why was he not blamed at the time ? The regard of the Ngapuhi tribe for the Europeans had not been purchased. The Ngaprthi had a regard for the Europeans from the time of their first arrival amongst them. The Ngapuhi had their faults and their good points. When the fighting took place with Hone Heke, Tamati Waka fought against him, although he was not ordered to go by the. Europeans. That showed that their regard had not been purchased by the Government ; it was a regard for the Europeans, which was felt by the people up to the present time. Sir G-eorge Grey showed his regard for what Tamati Waka did by paying him. The Maoris then found out that these things had their price. It was not an idea of the Maoris to ask a high price for what they had done ; they had been shown that by the Europeans. The Ngapuhis had had no fault to find with the Government during its administration. If any one committed any offence against the law in his district, he Was given up in expiation of that offence. He had not seen any wrongdoing by the present Native Minister in the North. During the previous Parliament, measures were taken for the establishment of schools in the North, and also for the making of roads there. The Native Assesssors were appointed there by Sir George Grey; they were selected from among- many chiefs of the tribes, and they had remained in office up to the present time. New ones had been appointed by the present Government in the same way as they were appointed by previous Administrations and previous Governments. What the Natives in his district wanted to see was that roads should go through the whole district, that the telegraph should be extended, and that schools should be established there. He did not wish to see the £5,000 taken away; he hoped it would be left to be administered by the Government, because there was very little money left now. After Mr. Kaeaitiaita Takamoana and Mr. Tawhiti had again addressed the House, the question was put, " That the vote be reduced by £5,000 upon which a division was called for, the following result:— Ayes ... ... ... ... ... 18 Noes ... ... ... ... ... 38 The amendment was consequently negatived. Mr. Rees moved, That the vote be reduced by the sum of £4OO. He did so for the purpose of doing away with the Waka Maori. For this there were " Ayes " 29, and " Noes " 21. The amendment was consequently agreed to. Thursday, 19th Octobee, 1876. On the House assembling to-day, the following telegram from Lord Carnarvon, in reply to telegrams from Sir G. Grey and J. Macandrew, Esq., w : as laid on the table, and ordered to be printed:— "The Governor of New Zealand. " 16th October.—Have received telegram from Superintendents Macandrew and Grey, complaining of enforcement of Provincial Abolition Act against strong feelings of provinces, and urging reference to Law Officer and disallowance; also stating disturbances imminent. You may reply, Act was duly allowed on advice of Law Officeir, and cannot be disallowed. I trust no real risk of unconstitutional disturbances, and I have full confidence in your judgment. - " Cabnaevoit."

tt? al^ ays been our practice to give the speeches fkJ 3 a °S mei ? b ! rs in full i but m consequence of the Waha Moon being so suddenly discontinued, w© have been obliged to omit portions of some of them in the above report to enable us to give our Native readers, m this our last issue, as much information as possible on Parliamentary matters.]