EVENING SITTING.

Star (Christchurch), Issue 5688, 6 October 1896, Page 1

EVENING SITTING.

The House resumed at 7.30 p.m. Clause 8, no person to retail tobacco in borough without a license, was strongly opposed by several members. The Hon E. J. Seddon said that it seemed to him that members cared nothing how revenue suffered or how much smuggling was carried on. All they found fault with was increased taxation. The whole amount would not be more than .£IOOO a year, but it was necessary there should be licenses, and the holders of them would be under supervision. The Government was powerless to do anything in this respect, but directly it attempted to remedy it the House said don't do it. Dr Newman said that this clause meant heaping taxation on every small shopkeeper in boroughs, and he moved that it should be struck out, - •- < / Air. Hoaa.also said that this was a mo3t objectionable tax, and he should vote against it. He denied that the revenue wasjsuffering by it. There would always be a certain amount of smuggling, and it was the duty of the police to suppress it. MrE. Thompson said that it was nonsense to say that «£1 a year would create a monopoly. He should support the clause, and believed that the trade itself desired it. After further discussion, the Hon E. J. Seddon said that the ; Conference had recommended this license fee, and the department had asked for it. What the trade asked for was £25 or .£3O license, but the Government refused to give such a monopoly as that. Clause struck out by 30 to 25. The Hon It. J. Seddon moved that the five following clauses should be struck out consequent on the rejection of clause 8. Carried. Clause 15—Making cigarettes by hand. The Hon E. J. Seddon moved to reduce the feo payable for a warrant for making cigarettes by hand to not less than a year and not more than .£lO. Carried. The remaining clauses passed with slight amendments. The Billiwas read a third time and passed. LAND FOR SETTLEMENTS. The Hon J. M'Kenzie moved that the House should disagree with the amendments made by the Legislative Council in the Land for Settlements Act Amendment Bill, which, he said, materially altered the Bill as it passed the House, and that Messrs Larnach, Duncan and the mover should be appointed a conference to draw up reasons for disagreeing with the amendments. Carried. ' . : V. SHIPPING AND SEAMEN.. The Hon W. Hall-Jones moved that the House should disagree with tho amendments made by the Council in the Shipping and Seamen Act Amendment Bill, and that Messrs Seddon, Pinkerton, Millar and the mover should be appointed a conference. Agreed to. COMMITTEE OP SUPPLY. On the motion that the House should go into Committee of Supply for t'ne discussion of the Public Works Statement, Mr M'Lachlan moved an amendment that the Government should either erect a sheep bridge over the Hinds River alongside the railway bridge, or put a fcuin of money on the Supplementary Estimates for the purpose. He strongly urged this on the notice of the Government, and said that thi3 was one of the most important sheep districts in the colony. Mr E. M. Smith hoped that when the Government obtained specifications for this bridge they would take caro it was constructed out .of iron. He strongly urged the claims' of Taranaki iron, and

asked why they ahotvld go to the Old Country for iron when they had material in this country. Sir R. Stout aaid that it -was to be regretted that neither of the two honourable members who had addressed the House referred at all to tho Public Works Statement, and that the amendment had been moved apparently to block the discussion. The Public Works Statement was a most important docnuiont, and so far as it gave an account of what was done in the past year, and what was to be done in the future, he thought lie could fairly congratulate Mr Hall-Jones on the clearness of the Statement. Referring to the Statement itself, he regretted that the Government continually made reference to the past, and stated that the debt of the colony had been increased since 1888 by jno less than .£6,857,839. If anyone read the first page of this Statement, however, they w,ould imagine that the debt had not been increased af all, which, lie said, was entirely misleading. As to the reference in the Statement to future Policy, he pointed out that paragraphs in it conflicted, as in one place tho Statement said that the expenditure on public works must cease, whei'oas another paragraph stated that they were to start on a now borrowing policy. He thought that they were asked to vote in these estimates far more than they could afford. They were asked to spend no less than .£476,393 on roads, which would not be reproductive and the colony could not hope, by any means to afford such a sum as that. Then for other works they were asked to spend .£358,494, and .£278,517 on railways. There were no fewer than thirty-three new roads in Westland in the Estimates .this year, and not one of them was a main road. He asked tho House to say if the colony could undertake to construct these roads. Then as regarded the scenery vote he found that only ..£2OOO was to be spent at Rotorua, and nearly the whole of the scenery vote was to be spent on making roads.' If this Statement were agreed to by the House it meant borrowing another million, next year. This Budget was the most startling one that had yet been submittedto the House. The whole of this moriey would be spent by June 30 next, and what was then to happen. The number of men employedby the Government would be about three or four thousand, and the House would then be told that they should not discharge those men, and another loan wonld have to be raised. He again complained that the Estimates were altogether excessive, and said that if it were not for Mr M'Laahlan's amendment blocking the way the House should pass a resolution that the Estimates should be reduced by .£250,000. They were all elected to sco that there should be tapering off of expenditure, but this Public Works Statement meant that they were to have a larger . expenditure than, ever „ on unproductive works. Additional taxa-; tion was . tho only way they could meet this large increase of interest, and the only alternative would be to pas 3 a resolu ion to reduce the estimates either by .£200,000 or .£250,000, for that would enable the Government to carry 'on till next year. Ho regretted that he had not time to refer to other portions of the Statement, but he asked the House to look at the broad outline of the Statement and not go into details of particular roads. It was greatly to be regretted that the House had to provide for so many small tx*acks of which Parliament knew nothing, and it .showed that the; local government system had completely broken down. The House should, however, assist the Government by 1 educing the estimates, and if that were not done there was nothing for it but continual borrowing. Mr HOOG said that they had j ust listened to the declaration of a narrow-minded city member whose whole complaint was that the Government was doing wrong because it was improving the country. He asserted that the Stout- vogel Government, during its three years' term of office, spent d£2,000,00O 4 on railways, whereas the present Government in fivo years spent only .£1,000,000. The Stout- Vogei Government also spent on roads in three years against .£483,606 spent by the present Government in five years, and the average expenditure of the Stout-Vogel Government per annum was .£1,381,858, compared with .£41 4,964 spent by the present Government. He condemned the expenditure on public buildings, and hoped that it would shortly cease. Instead of .£400,000 being set apart for roads, it should be double that amount. ■Mr T. Mackenzie said that Mr Hogg approved of every penny spent in hi 3 own district, but he was opposed to anything being spent in developing any great natural resources. They did not want selfish politicians of that sort, and although roads and .bridges were all very much required there were other equally deserving channels on which money could be spent in the interest of the colony. He strongly advocated making the thermal springs accessible, and congratulated the Government on the efforts that it was making to thoroughly reorganise that department. He agreed that roads and buildings were most essential to settlement, and said that if the Government were to carry on the work of colonisation it must give the settlers roads and bridges. Mr Hogg had treated the question of the reading of lands very sensibly. He believed that light railways were well worth the attention of the Government, and said that they would be of great assistance to setlers in the bush districts. Mr AiiLEW said that Mr Hogg had regretted the small amount to be spent on roads, but they would have to pay tho piper some day or other for these large sums. He (Mr Allen) complained of the misleading tables in the Statement, whish, he asserted, were deliberately calculated to mislead, but he should take care that his constituents were not misled by them. Referring to tho increase in the debt he pointed out that since 1888 no less than .£2,000,000 of public money' had been spent in public works alone. The Public Works expenditure had increased from .£334,000 in 1890-91 to .£713,000 in 1895-96, and this year it was iucreased to .a. much, larger .extent. He detailed ■ the present position, and said 'it meant that- "at- the -\ -end of March we would either have to stop our public works expenditure altogether or go in for further borrowing. The Colony already felt that it' had a weary burden for interest on its shoulders, and if it were increased much more it would undoubtedly break down. It was not right for the Government to put i ts successors (whoever they might be) into the position of putting its finances right, and providing for carrying on public works by legitimate means. The Hon J. M'Kenzie said that Mr Allen had told them that the Government were bribing constituencies, angliug for a newloan and all the old claptrap. They were told all about what would happen at 'the end of March next, but the Government had provided for votes that would last for the uext twelve months and in the moantime the colony would decide whether the work of colonisation was to be carried on. If it were to be carried on there were: only two ways to do it, either by- taxation, or by a loan. He condemned hypocrisy with regard to • borrowing, and said that some of those members who opposed borrowing had come to the Government with requests for large sums of money. With respect to Sir R. Stout's complaint that he could not move his motion to reduce the Estimates by a quarter of a million, he (Mr JFKensio) regretted that Sir R. Stout had not an opportunity of doing so, as ho should like to see how many members would have

irwnmrniEnTiT'-T~r'-^-'~~'''-'--^"~"r' l - l '-~--~ i --- i -'-T - *-~~ voted with him. He hold that it was impossible to carry on the work of colonisation without, making roads, and pointed out that .£IOO,OOO was put down for roads in the Provincial District of Wellington. They could not allow the colony to get into a state of stagnation, and how could roads be Constructed without money? Sir E. Stout had told them that there was •£400,000 odd in tho Estimates for roads, but he forgot to say that .£IOO,OOO of that was for the purpose of Native lands. (Sir R. Stout: "Not at all. I deducted that.") He asserted that the local bodies were not able to do their work, and if the roading of the country were left to local bodies, it would not be done at all. He detailed a list of applications macle by members who voted against the loan, and the local bodies of their districts, which amounted to .£204,244. .The Government, was not going to find money for its. successors, but if it went out of office to-morrow, ' which he did not anticipate, its successors would find that there was sufficient to carry out engagements entered into. Mr Puthie thought that as a whole Mr M'Kenzie had behaved fairly well in the distribution of the money to the different districts. Mr M'Kenzio had endeavoured to make merry over the attitude of members who opposed the Loan Bill, but he thought that there was nothing in that, as, although a member might oppose the loan, it was his duty to see that . his district ,got a fair Jshare of the expenditure When tho House decided to go in for a loan he condemned borrowing, and said that the Colony could not continue such a policy without serious trouble occurring. Whilst admitting that the roading of the country must go on he thought that the amount allocated for roads in these estimates was excessive and beyond the means of the Colony. Mr B»chanan said that he regarded the Public Works Statement as most dishonest, and he asked what could be more dishonest than to say there had been no borrowing since ISBB. He quoted from the Public Works Statement, which showed that the expenditure on public Works last year amounted to ,£412,329, whereas the Estimates themselves actually showed that the amount was JE713.966, and he challenged the Premier to deny that. Ho characterised proceedings of this kind as discreditable to Parliament. Mr G.W.. Eussell said thatthere were two noticeable things in the Statement — first, the magnitude of the sum set down for expenditure ; and second, what was to be the future policy of tho Government/in this .respect. So far as he could judge; something in the nature of a large loan policy was . shadowed forth' in the Statement. He referred to 1 inconsistency in the Statement. In one. .portion of it^they were told that the public works expenditure "was to bo reduced "to the lowest possible limit, whilst in another part of it they found that the Government had exhausted the whole of the funds available, although it was only carrying on sections of small lines of railway. He held that before the colony entered on any new railway extension they should' have an assurance that, at any rate, the interest on the cost of such lines shouldbe payable as the lines were opened. Nobody could charge him (Mr Eussell) with being a provincial or parish politician, but he could not help remarking that the great district of Canterbury received only some .£BOOO or .£10,01)0 from this Statement, whilst other districts were greatly favoured. He did not wish to be personal, but everyone must notice the lavish manner in which the Premier had scattered money all over the Westland. district. After detailing the various votes set down for that part of the colony, he said that the. direct votes for Westland amounted to .£27,989 and with the amount for goldfields, &c, it meant that the colony was asked to pay \o Westland no less than .£58,989. The Hon E. J. Seddon said that he had listened with pleasure to the somewhat amusing speech just delivered by Mr Eussell. He was sorry to say, however, for the sake of Westland, that the amount of expenditure quoted by Mr Eussell was absolutely incorrect, but at the same time he must say that no part of New Zealand had done so much for the colony as Westland. He denied that the Estimates disclosed a large borrowing policy, and said that it was simply keeping in line with the policy laid down m IS9O-91, that was that where public works which were reproductive were required to be constructed it was the duty of the Government to assist them. There was no attempt to debauch the constituencies, as staled by the member for Rieearton. They were told that the money would be all spent by the end of the financial year, but' he (Mr Seddon) asserted that the work would be gone on with at a reasonable rate. There would be no lavish expenditure, no corruption, and no debauching of the constituencies. Work would go on at such a rate as the House provided, and there would be a margin left to carry on till the Government could consult Parliament as to future prosecution of I public works. With respect to the charge made against the Government of excessive expenditure, he pointed out that many of the items in the Estimates were nonrecurrent, and next year they would go back to normal expenditure. He resented Mr Buchanan's assertion that the Public Works Statement was dishonest, and he said that it was Mr Buchanan's ignorance of the subject that was responsible for such a statement. He admitted that the Estimates this year were higher than usual, but the circumstances of the colony demanded it, as the work of colonisation must go on and the necessities of the colony must be provided for. Mr Pibani said that they had heard a good deal about the tables in the Public Works Statement, but there were none of them so unreliable .is the table quoted by the Minister of Lands as to tho amounts asked for by members of the House who had opposed the loan. He challenged the Minister, to show that his district had asked for even .£IO,OOO instead of .£14,090, as stated by the Minister of Lands ; and he recommended Mr M'Kenzie to study the geography of the colony before he made such misleading statements. [Left sitting at 2 a.m.]