HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES.

Timaru Herald, Volume XLII, Issue 3387, 5 August 1885, Page 3

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES.

BELL PASSES. The Christ's College (Canterbury) Bill wob read a third time and passed. BKPLIEB TO QUESTIONS. Replying to Mr Levestom if the Minister of Marine is (1) aware that the Waimea river has of late years changed ita course, and that, as a consequence thereof, the Nelson harbor Is silting up, and (2) will he cause some competent officer to examine into and report upon the above subject with a view of taking the necessary step 9to remedy the evil, the Hon. Mr Larnoch said a report and survey would be made on the matter. Beplying to Mr Bryce whether it is intended to introduce during the present session a Bill to amend the Sheep Act, the Hon. Mr Tolo said the matter was under tho consideration of the Government. ; Eeplying to Sir George Grey if any Crown grant hod been issued to the Westport Colliery Company of 150 acres of land at Wallsend, and if so, under what authority and for what consideration wob such grant given, and is it the opinion of the Law Advisers of the Crown that such a grant could, under the circumstances of the case, bo lawfully made, the Hon. Mr Bollance said a Crown grant had not been considered necessary. Beplying to Mr Samuel, whether it is the intention of the Government to introduce a Bill to amend the Property Law Consolidation Act 1883, m order to remove doubts as the validity of the releases of mortgages executed prior to that Act, and as to the necessity of deeds being acknowledged by married womon, tho Hon. the Premier said the Government would introduce a Bill to embody the points raised by th« question. Replying to Mr Seddon, i( the Minister of Mines will furnish the various Schools of Mines and Mining Committees m the colony free of cost with a copy of Professor Black s report on his tour, and of his lectures on the goldfields m tho Middle Island, also with copies of the report by Mr H. A. Gordon on, the mining machinery of Victoria and New" South Wales, and with copies of the annual report on goldfields m Now Zealand, tho Hon. Mr Larnach said the Government would comply with the request. Beplying to Mr Seddon, if the Minister of Mines will this session give effect to hia opinion as expressed m the Mining Statement by placing on the Estimates a small vote for an increased water supply on goldflelds, and will the Minuter, during the recess, give effect to the recommendation of the Goldfields Committee m the session of 1881, made m favor of sending to America some competent person to report on the most improved methods of hydraulic sluicing, for quartz mining and gold workings, and the most approved appliances for crushing quartz and extracting tho gold therefrom j also, to report on silver and copper mining m the United States, the Hon. Mr Larnach said the Government were considering the putting of a sum of money on tho Estimates, and as regarded tho second question, it would involve a large expenditure, but the Government would consider the matter during tbo recess. Beplying to Mr Dargavillo whether it is true that the deposit* of the tenderers for the construction of tho tunnel section of the North Island Main Trunk Railway have been returned to them, and no tender hos been accepted, and if no tender ha» been accepted, why not j also whether the Minister will take steps to proceed with the construction of the line without further delay, the Hon. Mr Richardson said that several tenders had been received for the work, and the deposits of all except the two lowest were returned. Die lowest tender was not accepted, but correspondence was being carried on with both of these two tenderers, and a result would probably be arrived at m one or two days. HATIVB LANDS DISPOSITION BILL. The debate on the Native Lands Disposition Bill was resumed by Mr Pratt, who said the Bill as at present brought down would brine trouble on the native people, and ho, hoped the Native Minister would introduce euch amendments as would make it acceptable to the Nativo member*. Ho thought the principle of Native Committees was open to objection, but good might also como out of It. The Bill sluould be made permissive, and should not be forced oa the natives, who did

not like its provisions. He hoped the Native I Minia.ter would accept, the amendment which the Native members intended to propose m the Bill. Air Te Ao said the Bill ''appeared to be a Maori Bill, but m its effect it was a half -caste Bill. He' said' Major Te Whenro had sent a protest against the Bill, and his own district (Western Maori) a great many petitions had been got' up against it. He hoped the Native Minister would remove the obnoxious clauses iromi the Bill. Both the Native Bills would press very heavily on the natives, and he objected to them. He would much prefer the Treaty of Waitangi, autt?did not like either the.Native Lands Dispe'sition Bill or the ConsolidationßflL^ In theppinion of the native people both were bad Bills. Mr Dargaville intended to vote against the second -reading of the Bill. He regarded the measure as. tha most important that had come beforo Parliament this session. It contained an exceedingly vicious principle which was that a majority of the owners were to be put m a position to disposo of the lands of a minority. ' ' He contended that the Bill would assist land-sharking. He would vote against any doctoring of the Maori laws, except m the direction of individualising the titles or the resumption of pro-emptivo right. He hoped the Bill would not be put on the Statute Book, as, if it were, a very serious retrograde, step would be taken, and one which would hinder the progress of the North Island. Mr Moss objected to the Bill, and said he took considerable interest m tho whole question. The Bill concerned the Auckland district m a large" measure, as out of the 40,000 natives m the colony no less than 30,000 were m 'that district. The character of the chiefs had greatly deteriorated m consequence of their intercourse with Europeans during the last ten years, and yet it was to those chiefs that the Bili before the House proposed to hand over the disposal of the native lands. He believed the Bill was perfectly unnecessary, and considered that if the Government were to endeavor to remedy existing evils they would not stop tho settlement of the country, but wonld, on the contrary, bonefit both the Europeans and natives. The Bill would effectually stop settlement, because by it the Maoris were confined to dealing with tho Government, which wa3 very distasteful to the natives, as they could not obtain redress from the Government m the event of wrong being done. Ho gave tho Native Minister every credit for his efforts to meet the wonts of the natives, but. he thought he could not avoid making blunders when he interfered m the Native land laws of the colony. If there was any chance of such a motion being carried, ho would move that a Royal Commission should be required to consider the whole question of native land purchases. He would move, however, that it was not desirable to proceed further with the Bill, but that during the recess the whole question should bo referred to a Royal Commission. Captain Russell believed the Bill to bo a retrograde movement, and thought it would establish the continuanco of the Native Office for ever, although successive Nativo Ministers had stated that the day was not far off when the Native Department could be abolished. The creation of trustees or Committees was not at all a new idea, as it was established as far back as 1867, but was repealed again m 1873, having proved an utter failure. He contended that the Bill absolutely ignored the rights of ownership, as pointed out by the Member for Auckland City West. He also thought that all tho bribery that had been carried on for years would be perpetuated by the Bill. He was at a loss to understand the arguments adduced by the Premier and Nativo Minister, as they were told that the Bill would prevent the natives parting with their lands, while they were also told that it would promote settlement., He contended that the Member for Waitotara left office with the respect of every Maori m the colony. The present Nativo Minister went amongst the natives seeking popularity, ■ nnd he hoped when lie left office he would leave it with the same amount of respect on the part of the natives as the Member for Waitotara. He thought the great bulk of the lands m tho North Island now lying idle should be settled, and the only way to do this was to induce the natives to sell. They should be compelled to individualise their titles also. The effect of this would be that they would become frugal and industrious, but the present Bill would destroy every individul effort. Mr Hobbs opposed the Bill, and said one effect would be very disastrous. He thought if it became law thero would be weeping, and wailing, and gnashing of teeth among the natives themselves. He knew the feeling of the natives was against the Bill, nnd he was not surprised at it. He cautioned the natives against supporting the Bill m the belief that it would afterwards bo amended m Committee. He said the whole of the North Island members, with tho exception of the Native Minister, and one or two other members who would support the Bill as a party question, were unanimously against the Bill. . Mr Pyke deprecated treating the Maoris as children, and thought tho only way of arriving at a proper solution of the question would be to regard them as equals with tho Europeans. He considered the Maoris were sensible men — too sensible for the Nativo Minister. In his meetings with them m the North the Native Ministerhad made promises to the Natives which he had no authority to make, and which could never be fulfilled. Ho (Mr Pyke) had severely criticised tho action of Mr Bryce m reference to Te Whiti, but he now desired to retract his statements on that occasion, as he considered that Mr Bryce's action had saved thecountry. He contended that the right of pre-emption wag the only possible way out of tho present difficulty. He recommended tho Government to withdraw the Bill, and to reconsider it during the recess. Ho intended to rote against the second reading. The House- adjourned at 5.80 p.m. and resumed at 7.80 p.m. Mr Wi Pere moved the adjournment of the debate till after the Hast and West Coast Railway resolution was considered. The motion was agreed to. HIK EAST AND WEBT COAST HAILWAT. The Hon Sir Julius Yogel then moved tho following resolution : — " That a Solect Committee be appointed to consider the question of the construction of the East and West Coast and Nelson Railway, and to take recommendations regarding tho same, with power to call for persons and papers ; three to bo a quorum ; to report m ten days ; the Committee to consist of Major Atkinson, Mr Cowan, Mr Fraser, Mr (Jarrick, Mr Hursthouse, Mr Mocandrow, Mr Menteath, Mr Mitchelsori, Mr Btoward and tho mover." He said he would ask the House to consider tliis question free from the impressions left on their minds from the misrepresentations that had been made on the question during the lost few weeks. He felt sure tho Members for Egmont, Waitotors, and Geraldino would take no advantage of those misrepresentations, and said there was nothing underhand or improper m the negotiations that had taken place on tho subject. Last year the Government was authorised to treat for the construction of the railway under m Act passed for that purpose. He detailed the circumstances under which tho Government were- authorised to arrange for tho construction of the lino, and added that when tho session was over last year no delay had occurred m trying to drrango for its construction. Ho vonturod to say that no moro honorable gontlomen were to be found m tho colony than thoso threo gentlemen who were sont Home for tho purposo of arranging for tho construction of the line. When tho intimation reached the Government that a guarantee for 20 years of £97,000 was required, tho Government came to tho conclusion that they would not ask the colony for tho money, but decided to put tho burden of it on tho districts interested m its construction. It was then announced m 'several newspapers that tho proposed works would bo injurious to othor diatriots, whilst m tho Canterbury district there was an absolute eagerness to have the arrangements carried into effect arid to inour the necessary taxation. He thought the evidenco of approval m tho distriots of Canterbury, Nolson, and Wostland should. convince tho Houso that tho railway was desirable, and should bo made. He thought tho opposition of other districts to the railway was ft Tory short-sighted ono, aa tho construction of tho lino, opening up communication betwoen Canterbury ana Nolion ar>d tho West Coast, would bo of bonofit to the whole uolony. A good deal bad. boen beard aa to tbo compound interest

which would result from the guarantee of £97,000, but it was altogether misleading. He went into the cost of tho construction of the railway at some length, and contrasted the Bumß required with the cost of the Manawatu Railway. Tho estimated cost of tho construction of the lino was £3,130,000, and the estimate of the traffic was that a profit of £33,798 would be made upon the two lines, while an indirect profit would also be made on the lines, so that tho Public Works Department estimated that a profit of £39,548 -would bo made on them. Ho said that the reason for the appointment of a Committee was that the whol* matter might be carefully gone into. Besides the amendmont of the Member for Auckland City East would involve the reconsidorntion of the whole subject. Tho matter of the construction of tho railway by the colony would be ono for the Committee to consider. Tho Government camo to the conclusion, after much consideration, that if the district were to be liable for tho guarantee, that the colony should not be liable, but that tho districts should becomo an incorporated body, to carry out tho workß m tho same manner as other works were carried out by incorporated bodies. He submitted that till these questions should be carefully considered by tho Committee. The Government knew nothing of tho proposed contractors, and on tho carrring out of any contract it must be understood that they were simply doing co m tho same manner as other works would be undertaken. He thought thero would be several advantages to be gained by making the lino locally. As to the three districts interested giving a guarantee, he found that the Stock Exchange reports showed that the local bodies of New Zealand were responsible for loans raised to the extent of £230,000 (?) Whereas the whole amount for which the three districts referred to were responsible was only £34,000 (?) He could not understand why the principle of borrowing should be freely granted to some districts of the colony, while it wns contended that these districts which included about onefourth of tho colony should not liavo a Bimilar power given to them. Ho hoped tho House would pause before creating ao much dissatisfaction m the minds of people interested by refusing to let this matter go to a Committee. To refuse such a Committee, he would say, with all respect to Hon. Members, would be a very high-handed proceeding. He hoped all feelings would be abandoned on the subject except the feeling of giving the matter fair consideration. Sir George Grey said the proposal now under consideration was that a railway should be constructed by a foreign company, that the colony should bo bound to a certain sum to pay for that railway, that, further, the colony should find for that company a certain quantity of land at 10s an acre, and they were now asked to give a guaranteo of £97,000 for 20 years. He thought the effect of a foreign company constructing the railway would be to bring out a foreign Btaff of engineers and throw out of employment a largo number of engineers m the colony. The quantity of land proposed to be handed over to this foreign company would amount to three times the size of the County of Cornwall and four times the size of the County of Derbyshire, and the population to bo carried by that amount of land should ultimately amount to eight or nine hundred thousand souls. Ho thought it was not just to futuro generations to hand over such a quantity of land to a foreign company. Ho contended they should not shut out the contractors of tho colony from the construction of this work, and if they could mako the railway themselves m five years they would save 2,000,000 acres of land and the monstrous guarantee that was intended to bo imposed on the colony. He combated the statements as to misrepresentation made by the Treasurer, and said it was the Members of the House who had been misrepresented on this question. He said that any man who opened to New Zealand the wealth of the West Coast would be doing a great work, but he trusted this work would not be undertaken by any foreign company, but by tho colony itself. Mr 'Butter contended that the Treasurer should have shown tho Houso where the profits that he said would arise from the railway were to come from. He should also have said something as to the amount of passengers and traffic that would be conveyed on the line. He considered that Sir Julius Yogel had givon no information at all of tho railway itself. He thought the railway would not pay working expenses. The only feasible part of the Treasurer's 6chomo was that where ho proposed to incorporate the districts for tho construction of tho railway. He hoped tho House would not pass the resolution, and as far as he was concorned, he would do his utmost to oppose it. Tho Hon. Mr Richardson said he would bo able to show that the proposed railway would pay uncommonly well. Referring to Sir George Grey'a statement, that tho colony was going to give away 2,600,000 acres of lnnd, ho (Mr Richardson) contended that wob exactly what they wore not going to do, because there was a large quantity of it which was bound to be taken up at more than the minimum valuation of 10s per acre. Soveral estimates had been made of the cost of the construction of tho line, and the avcrago ostimate was £1,767,600 for the lino between Springfield and Brunncrton. It would tako the colony ten years to carry out tho whole work. Ho quoted from statistics to provo that the line would bo a payable one. Ho hoped the House would give the matter fair consideration nnd allow tho wholo matter to go to a Committee, Mr Dargaville would like to know what position tho Houso was m. Ho quite admitted, as was pointed out by the Hon. Mr Richardson, that the line whon constructed would bo a paying ono, but that was all the more reason why the Houso should not depart from the arrangement mado last session with reference to this land. Ho had made a calculation, which showed that, adding the interest of four por cent to tho £97,000 for 20 years, they would have to pay £2,887,755. Ho contended that tho subsidy asked for was absolutely unnecessary, and that the line would pay when constructed. Ho would ask whether the Government would state, if tho Committee was granted, that tho proposal of Meiggs and Bons should not bo considered. If not, the Committee should not. be granted. Mr Pyke Baid ho would oppose tho wholo question m every possible shape Ho was m favor of the proposed railway, but ho was not m favor of giving tho concession asked for. Ho cautioned the House against having anything to do with Meiggs and Sons. He had been told by tho Treasurer that ho know nothing of Clark. Ho (Mr Pyko) had found out that when Meiggs " went undor " m California ho " came up " as Clark. He thought it was a wise and proper thing to construct tho railway, but ho thought it was unwise to allow a foreign company to mako capital out of the colony, and lie would uso every effort to defeat it. Ho asked tho House to reject the Committee He also said tho Committeo wa3 an unfair ono, and the question was projudgod. If the Committee should bo granted, ho hoped it would bo elected by ballot. Mr Fisher opposed tho motion. Ho said, referring to tho throat of tho removal of the seat of Government that had been mado, that his voico m tho Houso would not bo stifled by any threat of tho removal of tho seal of Government. Ho condemned the proposal of Mciggn and Sons, and asked whore wore the chivalrous politicians that were formerly m the Parliament of tho colony, that such proposals could bo seriously entertained for a moment ? Ho rofcrred to tho sorious consequoneos to the colony that had resultod from tho Brogden compacts, and ho thought tho pcoplo of tho colony did not wieli for a repetition of thoso troubles, whioh would undoubtedly happen if tho presontproposal wns agreed to. Ho thought the Treasurer m his estimate of tho profits of a lino was nutting a visionary profit against an absolute liability. He asked tho Houpo to rojoet tho motion. Ho objectod to tho proposal being roforrod to any Committeo, for if it woro a good ono why did not tho Treasurer como down with a definito proposal ? As he had informed tho House, tho reason for his not having demo so was because it would not only bo rejected by tho Houso, but by tho country at largo. Mr Downio Stewart was strongly opposed to the resolution. He considered tho House would mako a groat mistake if it granted anything which would lead to tho concession asked for. If the lino were to bo constructed at all tho Houso should consider whether it should not bo constructed directly by tho

colony. He looked on tho proposals of the Government as an outrage on tho intelligence of the Houso. He submitted that the House should stand by the Act passed last year. He would oppose this and every resolution that proposed to saddle the colony with burdens it was unable to bear. Mr Smith supported the Committee and considered tho Government was perfectly entitled to it. Ho thought too many South Island Members had been put on the Committee, and would movo as an amendment that tho names of Mr Thompson and Mr Locke be added to the Committee. He considered it would be very unfair to the Southern Members to refuse them tho Committee. Mr Holmes said tho resolution had not been debated at all on its merits, but it had been attacked becauso it emanated from a Government of which Sir Julius Yogel waß Treasurer. He contended that Sir George Grey's objections to the proposal were not worthy of any credit. A number of members were opposed to the line, simply bccaußO they wished to have a slap at the Government, and to get bock to the Treasury Benches. Ho referred at some length to the remarks mado on the resolution by tho Member for Dunstan, and deprecated the insinuations of that hon. gentleman against the members. He considered the opposition of tho Member for Wellington South was because of tho possibility of the railway boing injurious to Wellington. He defended the syndicate system, and Baid that one of the largest railways m the world, that from Canada to Western America, was being constructed under that system, and tho line would bo constructed within three or four years to tho satisfaction of all partieß. He contended that if the railway was not constructed some of the moet able bodied men m the colony would have to leave it m consequence of not being able to find employment. It was already found that numbers of working men were leaving Canterbury for Now South Wales and Victoria owing to want of employment. He said as the Canterbury members had given Auckland fair treatment m the matter of the San Francisco Mail Service, the Auckland members should now m return givo Canterbury fair and generous treatment m the question under discussion. Ho contended that it had been abundantly shown that a railway to connect Canterbury with the YPest Coast would bo of immense benefit to the colony, and would lead to tho employment of a largo number of men. The Minister of Public Works had also shown that the line would pay at leaßt 1 per cent. He submitted that for the reasons he had advanced the purpose of the Government should be carried without a division. Major Atkinson moved the adjournment of the debate, which wob carried, and the House rose at 12.55 a.m.