HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES.

Timaru Herald, Volume XXXIX, Issue 2766, 4 August 1883, Page 3

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES.

The Home met at 2.30 p.m. THE IDUOATIOX ACT. Mr Peacock and Mr Hunt presented petition!, numerously signed, from Auckland, deprecating reoent efforts to m«k» «Iteratiom m the Education Act. BEPIIES TO QUESTIONS. Beplying to Mr Bracken, the Hon. Mr Conollysoid that he had not intentionally disparaged the <qn»lity of the New Zealand manufactured blankets and flannel* m answer to a previous quettioD. On the contrary, he meant that the quality was too good for A»jlum use, where the patients were liable to tear them to pieces day after day. If the colonial manufacturers would make stronger qualities, Government would be glad to me them. Replying to Mr Turnbull, the Hon. Mr Johnston siid the Fairlie Greek line would bs opened for traffic to Gillingham's within the next ten dajs. Floods had prevented this being done earlier. Replying to Mr O'CaHaghan, the Hon. Mr Dick said the increase of the education rote last session was meant to restore the decreased capitation allowance to the former rate as nearly as possible, and to enable the ten per cent (o be restorod to tenohers, that being apparently the general deiire of the Home. It « at through the exertions of Mr O'CaHaghan that he assented to it. Beplying to Major Harris, the Hon. Mr Dick said that if required the mail from Auckland te Otahuhu would be forwarded by the early trains. Replying to Mr Fiib, the Hon. Mr Johnson said that to give railway employees a fortnight'! leave of absrnce per annum on full pay, would inTolre an expenditure of £20,000, a sum Government was not prepared to expend. Beplying to Mr Fish, the Hon. Mr Conolly said Mr Curtis, now on the Dunedin Gaol Enquiry, was a Visiting Justice to the Nelson gaol, but he knew of no reason why be should not be able to leare Nelson with the view of conducting such an enquiry. Beplying to Mr De Lautour, the Hon. Mr Rolleston said the Government had been advised m terms of clauie 155 of the Land Act, 1877, to allow valuation of improvements upon Crown lands to persons who might not hare authority from the Crown for their occupation. NBW bills. The following Bills were introduced and j read a first time : — The Timuru Mechanics Institute Amendment (Mr Turnbull) ; Wellington College Land Bill (Mr O. J. Johntton) i To Amend the Volunteer Act 1881 (Hon. Major Atkinson). MB DASGaVILLb's ACOU3ATIONB. On the Hon. Major Atkinson's motion about Mr Dargaville's accusations being called on, Mr De Liutour said it was the duty of the Speaker first to put the question to the party charged as to whether or not tbe words alleged were those used by him. The propriety of such a course was obvious, otherwise they might bs debating a subject which did not exist. He quoted authorities m support of his contention. The Speaker ruled against the contention, and thought it should be left to the House to decide between tbe parties. The Hon. Major Atkinson then proceeded bo more the motion. He thought it would be admitted that when charges were made igainst members of the Government, either these should be sifted or else withdrawn ungonditionally. Th» speech delivered by Mr Dargaville was evidently carefully prepared, rod the oharges not merely made use of m tbe heat of the debate. The tenor of (he speech was that he (Major Atkinson) was not Treasurer, but merely an accountant for tbe Bank of New Zealand, and that he held his seat at the will and for the purposes of that institution. It was evident that Mr Dargaville believed m tb« truth of his statement, otherwise he would not again assert its truth by cries of •' Hear, bear." If the charges were true, he was a criminal of a very high ;lass, and unfit to sit m that House. He isked Mr Dargaviile to second the motion, m arder to show that there was no party feeling m the enquiry sought. Mr Dargaville not having seconded the notion, Mr Muaro did so. Mr Dargaville said it appeared to him tbe Freasurer had lost his head. His reason appeared to have abdicated its throne, and ipleen and vindictiveness occupied its place. the fact was that m the courts of debate he was charged with class legislation and similar rffences, perhaps warmly, but not indecorously. He was prepare&to stand by the language he used on that pcoasion. He lad ample notes of what he taid, and would read them. It was *n extraordinary proceeding on the part 'of the Treasurer that he should frame his own indictment and choose his own jury, and then lay, " Now, am I guilty or not guilty ?" He (Mr Dargaville) tben proceeded to read from the notes of his speech, and compared them with the resolution as moved, dwelling tpeoi&Uy on the phrase " political position." He had not used the word political m his speech. The Premier had at that time no political position. He was solicitor for the Bank. He now asked, apart from party zoal, that he would have a fair and impartial bearing, and not be thrust into a position ha never had assumed. It was a false issue that had been raised, and one that the Treasurer should be ashamed of, and nothing short of a face of brass could have enabled him to do so. He asked for nothing but justice. He nixt reviewed the propositions to be submitted to the Committee. These were framed m a most crafty manner. The Treasurer and the Premier might have devised something better to get out of the scrape. There was nothing m it -for which he could be called to account. He traced the transactions connected with the passing of the Consolidated Loan Act of 1867 and after asserting the payment of £10,000 to Mr Whitaker and Mr Bussell, said he would stand by the statement that it was paid for the services rendered m the passing of that measure, and if he got a fair Committee, there could be bo manner of doubt but that they would confirm him m that assertion. He quoted from a speech delivered by Dr tfeatherston connected with the same subject m 1867, m which much stronger language was made use of. He was determined the colony should know the truth about these matters. He then quoted from his notes of what he had said about the Treasurer. Referring to tbe statement that the Treasurer was kept m office at the will of the Bank of New Zealand, did he want an investigation into that ? Why, the thing was notorious. The whole colony knew it. Alluding to the repeal of tbe two clauses m the Property Tax Act, he said he was aware they were now repealed, although be did not know of it at the time he made his speech, and he went on to «ay that this repeal was only done on the eve of a general election. InthatwaytheTreasurer disarmed bis opponents from sheeting home to him a very great injustice. He moved as an amendment — That m tbe opinion of this House the implications contained m the Treasurer's notice of motion, do not arise out of anything said m the House by Mr Dargaville. Tbe Hon. Mr Johnston e aid that not only had Mr Dargavilla libelled the Premier and Treasurer, but m the speeoh he had just delivered he had grossly libelled the House. The Treasurer and the Premier were charged with having prostituted their political position for the aggrandisement of the shareholders of a particular institution. He hoped such charges J as that would be felt by every member to be an attack upon the honor of the House. The charges and their reiteration just made, rendered it imperative thit they should be investigated by a Committee. According to tbe showing of Mr Dargaville himself, the Treasurer opposed the Act of 1867 ; m fact followed the very course taken by Dr Featherflton, whose conduct m the matter had been so maeh lauded. Again, m the face of the avowal made of hia ignoranoe of the real facts of the case, he (Mr Dargavillo) should not have come down and slandered the Government as be had done. After reading from Hansard of certain things that were done m 1867, he refused to follow that up

and read what the Treasurer then taid on the same subject. Anything more grossl.v unfair could not be conceived, and allowed the urgent necessity tbat existed for tho m vestigation proposed. Mr Joyce considered the defence made by Mr Dargaville a very able one. The motion failod to reach anything. The best thiug that could be done would be to allow the

Treasurer to withdraw the motion,

Mr Holmes suggested that the motion bo remodelled so as to enquire first if tbo words m the incorrect report of tbe speeoh imputed personal dishonesty t» the Premier and Treasurer; and, second, if the said allegations were true. He moved the following amendment :— To omit sub sections numbered (1) and (2) and substitute m lieu thereof the following words—" (1) Whether the allegation made against the Premier and Treasurer oontoined m the unconnected report of the epeeoh of Mr Dargavilli-, maHe m this House on Tuesday, the 31at day of July, 1883, m tho disenssion on the Property Tax Bill, imputed any polili cal corruption, or personal dishoneity, or dishonor to either of those lion, gnntlcmen. (2) Whether those allegations are true." The Hon. Major Atkinson accepted the amendment. Mr Dargaville said he would also accept it, but thought tho Committee should bo cho>en by ballot. Mr De Lautour suggested that a more complete record of tho charge should be mode and that the Committee be appointed by ballott to be drawn by the Clerk. Sir George Grey csnaiderod that time should be given for its consideration. He suggested that it should be printed, and the debate adjourned lilt that was done. This was agreed to, and the House rose. The House resumed at 7.30 p.m. Mr Turnbull complained that the speech of Mr Johnston woe most undignified. The oonductof the Treasurer towards members on that side of tbe Housa was invariably rude and unparliamentary. He was therefore well pleased at the ohastisement Major Atkinson had received &t the hands of Mr Dargaville. Tho facts showed that undue preference bad been given to the Bank of New Zealand m various ways. Mr Darg&ville had gone to the root of an evil, of which this was merely an oulomie. In dealing with that branch of tho question, he said that a political fraud bad been committed. Equally pointed statements had been made by Dr Feathereton, and yot no notice appeared to have been tiken of the language. The sum alleged to have been paid the Premier was well earned, considering that gentleman* well-lnovrn ability and tart for business. No one could doubt but that the Bank had great influence throughout the country, and if they chose to exercise that influence it was quite reasonable to suppose that they oould make and unmaVe Ministers. They had driven the country into its present state. It was quite true tho Treasurer was much ia the position of nn accountant. It was a consequence of our system of borrowing. Had the Act of 1381 not been repealed it would have given great preference to tbe money lending concern. That was what he understood Mr Dargaville meant. Again, he considered it was wrong for the Premier of iho colony to lend his name as a patron to the land companies. In that respect he was at ono with Mr Dargaville. Considering all the f'ict« of the case, no one could draw any other inference than that which Mr Dargaville had drawn. Mr Fish coHtendrd that tho language used did not justify tho commotion created m connection with this matter. The Treasurer had overstepped the mirk m his anxiety to prove Mr Dargavillo m the wrung. Tho tribunal proposed to try tbe iesue raieed was not a fair one. It should represent both sides of the House equally. The enmity whioh existed between Mr Hurst and Mr Dargaville was well known. As to the general merits of tbe quettion, he contended that the course projeoted was calculated to interfere with freedom of speech m Parliament. If that was once allowed he could well understand that the Government could m time exercise a very great check upon members. No good could arise from pursuing this subject further, and he hoped some means might yet be devised for putting an end to it. He strongly condemned tbe strong language used by Mr Johnston. Mr Munro supported the motion, expressing an opinion that it was a duty the Government owed, not only to itself, but likewise to tbe country, that tbe charges made should be sifted to the bottom. Mr Joyce suggested that the question should be settled between the parties themselves outside the House aud m a Court. Mr Fergus said that members wbo hid supported the Government were naturally anxious that the truth or otherwise of these accusations should be enquired int?, and the method proposed was the only proper way m wbioh this could be done. Tho Treasurer had been stigmatised as ths tool of the Bank of New Zealand. What did they find on a very reoent occasion when a Bill was promoted by a great monetary body ? Why tbat when the New Zsaland National Company's Bill was proposed, tbe Government stood firm against it. Mr Pike would like to know what they were wrangling for now. An amendment had been proposed by a member of the Opposition and accepted by tbe Government, and that should end the matter. Serious charges had been brought against, the Treasurer, and if these proved falaa the sooner it was known the belter. Either the accused or the accuser should be expelled from the House. This was not the time for a debate of this kind. When the report came op from ths Committee would be the proper time for canvassing the merits of the question. Mr Montgomery oontended that if they appointed a Committeo to enquire into this matter, they were going entirely against tha rules of Parliament. What they had first to consider was, were the words used subject matter for debate. He oontend«d they were not, as by clauses 134 and 136 of the Standing Orders, any objectionable words should bo taken down at tbe time tbey were made and before any other person bad spoken, if thoy were to be of any benefit at all. They must have perfect freodom of debate m that House. If objectionable words were used, it was the duty of the Speaker to check them at tbe time. In view of this being the Parliamentary practice, he would move as an amendment — " Tbat as the words complained of were not taken down at the time they were used, this House considers tbe ooune proposed by tho motion should cot be taken, as it would materially interfere with the freedom of epeeoh m Parliament." Mr Moss said tbat if this was a chargo to be enquired into by a Committee, the next step would of course be the suspension of the Government pending the enquiry, and the appointment of a temporary Government. He acqniesced m the opinion that the course adopttd by Government m relation to the New Zealand Native Lands Company Empowering Act was a most complete answer to any charges such as those alleged to have been made by Mr Dargaville. Mr Macandrew aaid he was one of those who voted for the Consolidation Loau Act of 1867, and if they censured one man ia conneotion with it they would have to censure all who took part therein. The Hon. Mr Oonolly contended that Mr Montgomery's amendment showed that he wholly misconceived the whole question at issue. Tbe clause of the Standing Orders quoted, referred to the words used m the heat of temper. In Mr Dirgaville'a case, bo unparliamentary language was used, but he brought a grave and serious charge against the Treasurer. 8o long as no indecorous or improper language was used, neither the Speaker nor any other person could insist upon the words being taken down. A grave charge like that oomplained of oould be enquired into by the House. It wonU be tbe duty of the Committee to enquire as to whether or not the language was used. Again, Mr Dargavitle accepted the challenge to refer the matter to a Committee. Not only that, but he moved m that direction. He (Mr Dargaville) was not sincere m that proposal, as he tabled his motion for a day upon which it was not at all likely ever to come on. In fact but for tho motion of the Treasurer, it never would have come on at all. Mr Dargavillo showed tho utmost objection to bringing this matter before ' a Committee at all, despite his professions to the contrary. It was absurd and insulting to Parliament to say that m a matter of this sort the members of Committte would be influenced by- party feelings. Again, tbe

»t cecU made by Mr Dargaville was a moil injurious speech. It was true be tried to exonsn himself for his seeming violeno of epeoch by attributing it to the well known wurmth of his nationality. Elaborate notes of that speech wora produced to-day by liim m support of his insertion of what hfl actually said. That showed tha'. the speech was thought over and carefully prepared. It was moat astonishing that a charge ihould hare been made eguinst the Treasurer when it was actually shown that the Treasurer had voted against the measure complained of. If t-lio charges wero truo then the Treasurer should uot remain a member of the House. If not, then Iho mnn who preferred these charges should not bo allowed to remain a member. Mr Shophard thought tha Colonial Tresrurer did a very gracious act this afternoon when he accepted the amendment of the hon. momber for Christchurch South, and he would have a still higher opinion of Urn 3ol»nial Treasurer if he would drop the matter altogether and allow the previous question to ke moved. Mr Hurst said that the statement mnde by Mr Dargarille on Tur6day might, having been proved to be to unbluihingly false, ho had expected ho would for a time at Unit, j have abicnted himself from tho House. Ho hoped the Government would stand by its resolution, and that the whole investigation would be submitted to the Home, by which the final determination of the matter would have to be decided. Most unworthy charges had been made, and it wai absolutely necessary either to tubtUntiatn them or else show their utter worthlessnen*. Charges of this nature were far too freely bandied about, without any attempt boing niado to sheet them borne. He was just afraid tlat they had given too muoh importance to Mr Dargaville. Still having taken the matter m hand, they were bound to sift, the charge* to tho bottom. An assertion had been mado against himiolf to the effect that he was actuated by personal holing againtt Mr Darßavillr. Bnch was not the caie, but to show hia bona fides, he would refuse to act on tho Committee. He denied that tho Bunk of New Zealand attempted to exorcise the influenco imputed to i f . He ailed Mr l>argavillo to exprpss regret for tbe slalemente ho had made, m which case the Government would no doubt withdraw all further proceedings. Mr Stevens supported the motion. Mr O'Calliigb&n aloo supported the motion. He woul I suggd>t the preamble of tho motion should be struck out, leaving I he appointment of the Committee and a statement of its purpose to tho House. Sir George Grey gnve notice that he would move the Committee consist of ten members, five selected by the Treasurer, and Qve by Mr Dirgttville. Mr Shrimski suggested the matter should be allowed to drop. Mr Levostam said that a Committee shoulc b« appointed as it. would have to be showr whether these accmatton were truo or false If they were true, then members had to beat tbeir share of the odium, an tho law said to have been paieei for tho benefit ol a private institution must have been passed by a majority of members. Mr Seddon opposed the motion. Tho facl that Major Atkinson hud been i» Parliamenl since 1861, and that he n.iw occupied th( proud position of Treasurer, and leader ol the House, was a complete answer to lh< charge. His personal means also corroborated (hat view of the subject, as a man m hi; position must have had favorable opportunity! for enriching himself at tho public expence, He strongly urged dropping tho matter. He did not think Mr Dargaville's words boro out the interpretation plucod on thorn, and he had disavowed tho intention that ibey should do so. The Treasurer should accept this, but at the fame fime Mr Oargavil'e ought to withdraw his stutement about Major Atkinson being (ho flunkey of tho Bank, as it was a most improper accusation amongst gentlemen. If the Troasurer after this would not drop tho matter, ho urged Mr Dargaville to altogether ignore the Committeo and the Opposition to walk out if a division wai called for. He moved the adjournment of the debate. Mr Turnbull denied that this affair threw any discredit on Parliament as a whole. He opposed the motion. Mr Petrie said thero was only one of two courses open. Either tho charge would have to be retracted unconditionally, or else tho Committee** investigation would have to go on. Mr Dodson said there was not an individual who believed the charge* levelled at the Tre*iurer. The Speaker eaid tho provious question could not now be moved. Ths House then divided on Mr Holmes' amendment as against Mr Montgomery's. Tho former was carried by 43 to 23. On the motion as amended being pur, the Hod. Major Atkinson offered to withdraw the preamble, but Bir George Groy objocted. Ho Hid not think tho tolicitor to tbe Bp.nk of Now Zealand should be Premier of tho colony. Mr Smith moved the previous question. Mr Fiih urged Mr Dargavillo to disavow any intention of imputing peroonnl dishonor to either the Treasurer or the Premier when, as on a similar case m 1878, the Treasurer would no doubt accept tbo statement and let tbe matter drop. The previous question was negatived on the voices and the amended resolution was agreed to, and the House, adjourned at 1.20 a.m.