MR. STAFFORD ON THE. EDUCATION BILL.

Timaru Herald, Volume XV, Issue 662, 30 September 1871, Page 2

MR. STAFFORD ON THE. EDUCATION BILL.

The ;fol|owing-:is the; Bpeeqh delivered v by the lion, member for Tiniaru m the Houso of ' Representatives on the Education Bill. We quote from Hansard : — Mr StaCTOKD.— Sir, m common with lion, members generally, and indeed, I may aay, with the wholo House, I have listened with extreme interest and pleasure to the present debate ; and m unison with' the common feeling of the House I haye to .express my gratitudb' to the Hon. 1 'the Premier "f or Ithe able manner m which lie has introduced this framework of a measure calculated to confer such important benefits on the Colony at lurge. That hon. gentleman himself must feel a certain amount of -gratitude for the gentle pressure which was brought to bear upon him from this side of the House last session, an 4 wliifch, no doubt, m some degree compelled him to recognise the necessity for submitting to the supreme Legislature such a measure as would prevent the people, of this country from growing up m a condition of barbariam, and would establish a. system of elementary instruction which would enable the' New Zealanders of the future to stand on fair terms wjth. the inhabitants of any portion ot iho gldbo. The hon. -gohtloinnn having ovorcoiuo that reluolanco and hesitancy 'to which 1 -haw alluded, now cornea forward to redeem tho pledge which last session lie gave, and hus submitted foe the consideration of this House the framework of a measure which indicates that he has taken great care m its preparation, and ho ha 9 given very great attention to all those circumstances which necessarily surround and affect the question m all countries. Hon. members stand 'm a somewhat peculiar position as regards this Bill, inasmuch as it is understood that there will bo no opposition to it at this Btage of the second rending ; and the Government lias invited a criticism of its provisions now, which would more properly be offered m Committee. But, for. iho general understanding that, it would facilitate the passage of the Bill that the opinions of hon. members with respect to its details should be expressed at this stage, I should have abstained from many of the remark:) which I know propose to make. [ will now proceed to comment on someot tho provisions of the Bill m the order m whioh thoy aro presented to us. As to tho mode of

•■• ■ "/i*.* ' ~ instituting Provincial Boards of Education, .it rtg^thfnk, hardly necessary that I should there has been a uniform condemnation of the proposed mode of electing those Boardk I shall, therefore, dismiss that subject, by simply saying that I think it would be impossj|le to hit upon a worse plan, unless, injdoed/HTie Proviucial Councils themselves had been constituted the Educational Boards, as is proposed to be done with respect to the County of Westland. The next question to which £ come is that of the appointment and salaries of the teachers 5 and here I may "say Min\ I do nob much, care with whom the appointment rests, provided 'that uo one shall bo ap.ppinted.reho. daes.not. possess a certificate of character and competency ; but I desire to say that, m my opinion, whoever appoints an officer should have the fullest power over his salary. We have had too many examples of tlio evil effects of pursuing a contrary course, and, with the unhappy experience we have had, how we can be asked to stereotype a practice which can only lead to difference of opinion, conflict of authority, and general discontent, I am at a loss to discover. By whatever authority these officers are appointed, let that same authority fix their salaries. I further object to the mode m which it is proposed to raise the requisite income. Such a matter is for this House to determine, and I strongly protest against rolegating the question of taxatiou to small communities. There is always great diversity among such bodies, and the giving to them a power which should remain within the walla of this House, would be to resign that snpremo function which belongs to us of decidiug what shall be the character of the'taxation of New Zealand. To the particular modes of taxation proposed m the Bill I do not object so 'much as some hon. gentlemen appear to do. Considerable exception has been taken to household taxation, and to the power of rating real property. Those objections have been made by an hon. member to whoso opinion I am m the habit of according great weight, but m this instance I must differ from him, for I think the suggested modes of taxation are not so unfair as they huvo been represented— are, perhaps, as fair as any other mode of taxation would be ; for an absolutely fair system of taxation I have never yet known. The fairest would, I think, bo a porcentago from the gcnerul revenue, to which all contribute. The Bill, I consider, has properly recognised the existing stato of things m this Colony, and the different systems now m force. I may observe that m the Province of Nelson the system of elementary instruction m force there has worked better, i» fur as I know, than anywhere else m Now Zealand. Ido not want my frionds m Otago and Canterbury to suppose that I iv any way desire to reflect on their systems, but I am beLter acquainted with the working of that which prevails m Nelson, and I can- safely say that it works with very general satisl'uction, both to the different religious denominations, and to those persons who do not usually express decided religious opinions. The tux which is m force m Nelson is a household tax, mid uilimugh at first sight it may seem monstrous thut v house rated at £5 annual vulue, and another which may be rated at £100 a year or upwards, should pay the same tax, it must be remembered that the poorer classes, who reside m houses of small value, are ju.st those who get the benefit of these elementary schools, which many of the richer classes do not. avail themselves of. I am, however, by no means certain that this tux ia the best, but ut least, it might he miide contributory, although not the sole means of income. With respect to the other tax'proposed, namely, a rate on real property, I confess I should like to see it limited ; but assuming that the House dues not prefer some '■ther kind of tax to the. two proposed, then instead of adopting only one of them, I should much prefer to fee them both pressed into the service, with a maximum limit attached to each, inslend of having, as now suggested, a lax of twenty shillings on a house ol sum] l value. I would also desire to see a lower rule on real property, and personal property al.-o rated. Wit h a household tux only, Ido not think you would obtain sullicient funds, because 1 should like the elementary schools to be thrown open to all, without imy feo for attendance ; a small fee of fSro shillings per child, up to four children, being imposed on all parents of children between certuin ages, who should tlnn be entitled to attend the schools without any further charge. The result would be that a father, hai-ing had to pay a certain sum for educational purposes, would be induced to try to get something back for his money. In any measure we may puss, we are bound to consider this sentiment, which is by no means felt most weakly m New Zealand. Another portion of the Bill to which- 1 object is that which gives the Minister of .Education for the time being power 1 fo 'overrule the decision of the local boards m certain cases. I think the utmost .psqweri he, should possess, ;shonld bo thafcof sending back to thorn for reconsideration any resolutions yirhieh may have. been, adopted, with'such remarks ris he may deem expedient; but that the .ultimate decision should rest with the Boards, if you think ' Boards necessary and wish them to work w(th earnestness. And I thtnlc Unit the power m question is more expressly objectionable -when -wo 'Consider thnt it is proposed to be exercised m expending — what ? not the funds- of the Boards; not the general revenue of tho country ; — but tho provincial funth given to the provinces foroflieFpurposes, andin f ,ended to be under the control of, and dislribntecl by, ,1110 several Provincial Councils. Now, -I do not wish the hon. gentleman opposite to think -^-perhaps it is hardly necessary for me to give him any assurance on the; subject — that I am .standing upas an -advocate for tho provincial' 'system.' Indeed, 1 may say that one reason why I. object 46 the-. proposed mode of constituting tho Boards is, that they aro made to rest on such ephemeral institutions as'Uie 1 Provincial 'Councils. But eo- long' as Provincial Councils exist, and so long as <1»U House continues to grant them part of tho general revenue of the colony to distribute,' it appears to me unjust that a Minister should have power to step m and, take back a portion of tueir capitation allowance. 1 would warn the Government that, #ie retention of that provision may draw down on them the antagonism of the Provincial Governments ,and/ Councils! ; I; desire to see aa few elements of antagonism m the Act as possible, and therefore. l think that the provision ia one that ought to : be eliriiinatect Jam happy to be able to say to the Hon. the Premier that I have now stated the main objections I . entertain to, certain provisions of the Bill ; and frith respect 'to the remaining provisions, I can say that I concur to "a very great extent with the conclusions at which the Government have arrived ; but, at the same time I think that considerable modification may with advantage be made m it. Ido not object to the high schools, grammar schools, and others of a class more advanced than primary schools, all of which were so strongly condemned by the hon. member for Wakatipny but I do object to those schools being maintained out of the general taxation of the country. It isj mmy opinion, highly proper . that they, should be a part- of the educational system, bub I object to general taxes, and especially a household tax being levied for schools, the advantage of which. , would only be participated m by a very small section of the community. Ida not think it fair to tax every person for the support of a mode of education which only a small number can participate m ; and while I would like to have a machinery for establishing higher classes of iicliools, I would wish to see them almost altogether supported by the friends of the pupils who attended them, i will now refer to the fundamental principles of ' the Bill— the compulsory attendance at schools, and the aided schools. With refercuce to compulsory attendance, I am not opposed to the idea if it be practicable, but I am quite aware — as the: hon. .member for Heathcote has expressed himself to be — of a. very great practical difficulty m giving effect to it. ' Compulsory attendance at schools is considered rightly or wrongly, to be antagonistic to that idea of individual liberty which prevails among the people of our race generally; although that idea, as pertaining to a

civilized community governed by laws, ii somewhat illogical. Every step taken ir legislation, by which a community is guidec or controlled, is m fact more or less oft compulsory character, and opposed to the ' liberty of the individual. Ido not sympathise with the opposition which the clauses relating to compulsory education may create and it is entirely from a practical point ol view that I think they should not bo made sc sweeping. The Bill must be to a very considerable extent, a tentative measure, mid one that we cannot make perfect during tho present session. From experience gained m the working of the measure, or from the changing circumstances of the colony, amendments will be necessary from time to time. This measure will perhaps, meet with considerable opposition m those provinces which have already established systems of education, and to start now with an entirely new principle — new, at least, m this country — will increase that feeling of opposition. I admit that the compulsory clauses are very largely hedged m with exemptions, and I believe that some of these exemptions are of so wide a character that they will defeat the object the clauses seek to attain. The compulsory clauses, if retained, should at present apply to the larger towns only, and should not be enforced m distant and thinly-peopled districts. 1 have accompanied the hon. member for Heathcote to the school of 'vhich he spoke last night, and of the committee of which ke is chairman. I have spoken to him about the attendance, and heard from him the reasons which militated against a regular attendance of children m sparsely-peopled districts and I recognise how many obstacles there are. Two or three days— aye, two or three hours rain may augment the size of the small stream so that children m the country districts could not safely get over them. To attempt to enforce a system of com pulspry attendance m such districts n ould be impracticable. I now come to the principle of aided schools, and there is a considerable relation between this and the other — the compulsory principle. In my opinion, it would be an intolerable tyranny to seek to enforce compulsory attendance unless you admitted the aided schools, for you would thereby subject to heavy penalties parents who did not send their children to schools at which formularies and doctrines were taught of which they altogether disapproved. The recognition of these aided schools largely induces me to approve of the Bill. There was a time m which no person was more strongly disposed than myself to believe that the State had no business to interfere with the instruction of the people except m connection with -what was called the secular system. I have inquired, however, and I must again inquire, what is meant by a secular system. I venture to submit, with great humility, to the House, that if hon. gentlemen will inquire into what is meant by a secular system, they will not find it to be so simple n thing to define as might be inferred from the manner m which it has been alluded to m this debate. I do not exactly know where secular education begins or ends, and certainly if you were to eliminate the aided school clauses from this Bill, it would not then be a Bill for secular instruction only, because it requires that the Holy Scriptures shall be read, and that reading is proposed to be made a necessary part of the system. Why the expression Holy Scriptures is used Ido not know. I should have preferred the simple word Bible, and I certainly never before noticed these words m any statute where the Bible was meant. Now, what is meant by the Bible ? The differences between most . Protestant denominations or sects may be called sectarian, but the difference between Roman Catholics — or Catholics as I call them — and Protestants is fundamental ; nnd while, I suppose, most Protestants would agree to one particular version of the Bible, Roman Catholics will not read a Protestant Bible. I usk, therefore, what is mennt by the Bill ? Is it the authorised book which Catholics read ? Will you nllow the Douay version to be read? ("Yes, yes." "No, no."] Some hou. members say yes, and some no, that is just what I expected. Some people will say yes, and others no, but I shall say, without fear of contradiction, that a very large number of Protestants will say, most emphatically, no. Now, we pro]M>se to establish a national system, and, iv doing so, we must not attempt to crush out the sentiments or conscientious convictions of a large section of the community. If you propose to have merely secular education, you must not require the reading of the Bible; and I really attach very little or no weight to the Bible being read m the way m which it is proposed to be read m this Bill. I can hardly conceive a system more likely to cause a want of respect for the Bible than the having it read as proposed, and, as it must be, m a merely mechanical manner, by some fifty, eighty, or one hundred pupils, taken for a time for that purpose from their geography, arithmetic, or other lessons. Ido not think you could devise any more ingenious j mode of disgusting the young mind with the Bible than by reading it out mechanically to a number of very young children, to whom its contents are about as intelligible as hieroglyphics upon an Egyptian monument ; — you could not more effectually weary a child than reading it m that way, and I would never allow my own children to be placed m such a position. Under the so-called conscience clause, you would have some children running out to play marbles and escaping from, the reading of the Bible, while others were supposed to be receiving religious instruction. Let U3 be honest m the matter ; let us have one system or the other ; and if we will have a purely secular system, we must banish the Bible from the schools. But Ido not think we can stop here. I have taken some considerable trouble to inquire into the subject, and the more I inquire the more I find that you cannot devise a system of education m the proper sense of the word — I mean that education which entitles a man to call himself literate by comparison with an illiterate person — you cannot devise such a system without including m it Borne theological opinion. In fact, you can scarcely open a book that will not contain passages tending to create a religious bias or to form a religious opinion. I will gi ve an illustrationof this that happened mmy own family lately. My governess purchased two geographies lately for the tuition of my children, mere elementary books, such as would be used for children of from seven to eleven years of age, and on looking over them, as I make a practice of doing, I noticed m one, that had been published within the last twelve months, some allusions to history; and indeed it is almost impossible now-a-days to have a geography that does not, m some measure, refer to history to explain the frequent changes that have of late years been made m the boundaries and forms of government of European countries. I found m one book slightly, and notably m the other, a reference to religious matters. There were statements with reference to the Kingdom of Italy of a character most highly offensive to Catholics, and indeed so very offensive that I would not allow my children to study from that book, as, m my opinion, it was calculated to give them false information. You can. hardly say that history is not a necessary part of the lowest elementary education, and what history can be found that will not involve very considerable differences of opinion with respect to allusions to matters m connection with religious belief ? That being the case, I refuse to believe that this Legislature will be clever enough to establish a free system oi secular education, for as soon as you get beyond the alphabet, arithmetic, and writing— and, m the higher gradcß, pure mathematics— you have to put books into the hands of children which will give, to a greater or less extent, religious impressions. I am strongly m favonr of aided schools being recognized t>y the Bill, and the Government has carefully provided that, whatever religious instruction may be given m these schools there shall be at least four hours of secular instruction apart from religious teaching. By this means provision is made for those -whose religious opinions or — if you choose to call them so— prejudices are opposed to the doctrines taught. It is to be regretted that all people are not of the same religion, for it would largely conduce to good government and peace, and would diminish the

chances of what a witty poet has wittilj described- as people " hating each other fo: the^love of God." But the tendency— ant especially m that country with -which we an invited to become more intimate, the Unitec States, of America— seems rather the othei way. We are bound to take human natun as wo find it, and we must remember that it New Zealand there aro already between one' seventh and one'eighth of the population whe hold special religious opinions, and we oannol ignore them m. any national scheme of education. We are bound to pay attention tc their convictions. My hon. friends from Otago — and especially the hon. member for Dunedin (Mr Reyuolds)— think the system m operation thereisasnearperfection as possible. That hon. member puta me m mind of a person once well known m English society, who was called " Abs olute Wisdom"— the celebrated Alderman Wood. I do not know whether my hon. friend is an alderman m the Dunedin Corporation, but he is as like that alderman as any person I know of m New Zealand. Well, the Otago system has attracted lately a good deal of attention, not only m Otngo, but outside of that province. The •Catholics have expressed very strong opinions with respect to the system. T was surprised to hear tho hon. member for Dunedin City (Mr Bathgate) say that there had not been any discontent expressed against that system. He is a member of tho Provincial Executive and Council of Otngo, and .must bo aware that a select committee wns expressly appointed by the Council within the last two mouths to consider petitions from Catholics — a tolerably numerous body, from whom a large portion of the revenue of the province is derived. He must be aware that -they protested agaiust the working of the present educational system m Otago. Their petitions were received with great respect, and were referred to a Select Committee, who took a great deal of trouble to get evidence on the subject. Well, what do we find ? That the system of Otago has broken down m its fundamental feature — the reading of the Bible ; for it is provided by the provincial law that the Bible must be read daily m schools. I will mention places where they did not dure to read the Bible, namely, at Saint Bathuus, at Cromwell, at Blacks, at Adams Flat, and at Wetherston. It was considered dangerous to do so at these schools, and the teachers oither got instructions from the higher authorities not to do so, or received local hints thot it would not do to read the Bible. I am partially wrong with respect to Wetherston, for tho Bible was read on one day m the week only — on Friday— on which dny Catholic children did not go to school. On that day the Bible was read at that particular school, but m other schools it had not been read for a longer or shorter time. That province had been most energetic m establishing elementary schools, but the system broke down at the very point at which, had it been a good one, it would not have broken down— just when it encountered people who did not believe m it. The Government were perfectly justified m putting the aided school ' clauses m the Bill, and they would not have acted wisely had they failed to do so. I regret to have heard many hon. members raise objections to these provisions of the Bill, for I consider them saving clauses m the measure. We cannot altogether ignore the fact that, m addition to petitions from Catholics, we have had presented a petition signed by the Protestant Episcopalian Bishop and Synod of Chvietehureb m favor of these clauses. That petition represents an important section of the community— l do not know their numbers, but they certainly are a section whose opinions deserve attention. We have also a petition from the Protestant Episcopalian Synod of Dunedin to the same effect. I have not the least doubt that, hud time been afforded, we should have many similar petitions. It certainly is not from the absence of similar sympathies, but from want of time, thut we have not hud similar petitions from every part of the country, to such an extent that (lie table of this House might, perhaps literally as well as figuratively, groan. I could undertake, if the measure were postponed till next session, to insure that such petitions would be presented m very large numbers, by people who signed them believing what llv;y signed. Well, Sir, under theso circumstances, I look upon the provision for aided schools not only as a wise provision but as one without which the Bill would be an unwise and unsatisfactory measure. That part of the Bill will have my most hearty support, as the result of convictions arrived at after starting from an absolutely opposite belief to that which I now hold on the subject ; for I was originally as firm a believer m tho secultir system — m its being the duty of tho State to establish such a system only — as any ardent admirer of it at this moment m this House can be ; and it was only after very considerable study of the subject, after consulting authorities of the highest eminence, and from a practical experience of human nature, that I have come to the conclusion that, if we are to have a national system, we cannot altogether afford to pass by the religious convictions of large sections of the community. The only practical objection — and that is only a mechanical one — is, that it tends to disperse the funds too much. I admit it might do go occasionally, but not m large towns, where a competition between different schools would produce a healthy rivalry. It might m outlying districts, with scattered populations, Bometimea cause a dispersion of tho funds. Still, upon the whole, I think the advantages are so great as to more than counterbalance the slight disadvantage that may result from that cause. As an old resident of Nelson, and as having once had the honor of holding the highest local executive office there — that of Superintendent — it gave me great pleasure to hear the encomia which have been bestowed on the Nelson system. I will give an illustration of the benefit of that system. There happens to be m Nelson at this moment a school which, although not called an aided Bchool, is really m the same position as aided schools would be under this Bill, which is supervised by the . Catholic priest, Father Garin. That school has come under the operation of a system identical with that proposed m the Bill, and it i« recognized as one of tho very best schools m Nelson, intermediary between the elementary schools established by the Province and tho higher class of education given by the Nelson College. Three-fourths of its pupils are Protestants, a fact which shows that Protestants will derive quite as much advantage from those aided schools as Catholics, and that these schools are calculated to confer great benefits on, and supply generally the wants of, the community. On the opening of tho first Provincial Council of Nelson, I then, as Superintendent, thought it right to call the attention of the Gounoil to the paramount duty of establishing, without delay,, a system of elementary instruction, and the Council responded at once to the proposition. A Commission was appointed by me, under an Act of the Council. My hon. friend the member for Motueka (Sir David Monro) was a member of that Commission, the Sergeant-at-Arms of the present House (Dr Greenwood) was another'; Mr Weld, a colonist well known to all of us, was a third ; and Mr Elliott was a fourth. The result was the establishment of elementary Bchoola m Nelson, which have given general Batißfaotion. With respect to tho practical working of the system m its early stages, great merit is due to Dr Greenwood, who was Inspector of the Schools for some years, and who was, I believe, the member of the Commission who drew up the report on which the Act was based. Before those schools were established, a person well known to the Promicr, and for whom I entertain the greatest respect — Mr Campbell— almost without any support, or only with support of an ephemeral character, . out of his own funds established schools which fulfilled the requirements of i that time ; so that education hits always rei eoived support from the pedple of Nelson. I ; hnve no right to detain the Houbo any ; further. I have a strong sense of the mv portanoe of tho conclusion at which I have s arrived, and will give my strongest support tc

y what I believe to be the" fundamental ir principle of the Bill. The other portions are d matters of detail, ns to which, like other lion, e gentlemen I shall be prepared to support d' alterations in committee. •" But with respect r to that important' principle of the Bill, e the aided Bchools, I would express an a earnest hope that the House will see fit i- .to retain it as a fundamental portion of the o measure. If it do not, I warn hon. gentlet men that the Bill will not he a permanent „ measure, but will be torn to pieces by a reguo lar and systematic agitation — that it will be a a measure which, instead of rearing up in the r future an educated and respectable comi munity, will itself be the means of dissension, i. of discord, nnd of retarding that public in- % struction which -all so earnestly wish to see , established in the land.