PROVINCIAL COUNCIL.

Taranaki Herald, Volume XVI, Issue 820, 11 April 1868, Page 3

PROVINCIAL COUNCIL.

TUESDAY, "APRIL 7th, 1868. The Council met pursuant to adjournment. Present— Tho Speaker, Messrs. C. Brown, Elliot, Freo, Glodhill, Kelly, Kingdon, Lawrence, Looaey, Mace, Snoll, Tatton, Upjohn, awL Veale. The minutes of the last meeting were read and confirmed. -.-. _, Messages. Two frresaagea were received " from his Honor the Superintendent enclosing Bills. 1. " A Bill to make better provision for tho establishment and maintenance of schools within tho Province of Taranaki." 2. " A Bill to empower Boards of Eoad Commissioners to borrow money for the purpose of forming, improving, and maintaining public roads, and erecting and maintaining bridges within their respective Road Districts, and to secure the repayment of all sums of money bo raised on the road rates of the district, for whioh such sums were borrowed respectively." Petition. The PitavtN'ciAr. Secretary presented the following petition from the settlers at Tikorangi, Urenui, and White Cliffs :— . **^k We tho undersigned representatives, occupying land in the following districts : — Tikorangi, Urenui, and White Cliffs, would respectfully call the attention of the Provincial Government to the importance of facilitating the means of communication with the Town of New Plymouth, by a bridge across the Waitara river. Besides European settlers we have a' namerons Maori population ; and the latter about to be considerably increased by the return of a numerous body of uatives from the Chatham Island. The district north of the Waitara, comprise a large and very important portion of tho Province you represent, and both European and Maoris draw the whole of their supplies from tho Town of New Plymouth. Ytfur Honor will please consider that tho Waitara river is periodically subject to freshes, so far at times as to obstruct the passage of wheel conveyances, thus rendering 'the construction of a bridge both a local as well as a Provincial necessity. A portion of the fund voted for bridges, should rightly belong to this district, which clause, we trust, may be recognised by your Honor's Government, and that the request herein expressed by your supplicants, may meet with your Honor's support. — We have, &c. (Here follows twenty-eight signatures.) BEET SCGAS AND OTHER MANUFACTORIES. The Provincial Secretary in rising to move, " That thia Conncil approves of the sum of £500 being appropriated aud paid to Trustees, for the purpose of assisting in the establishment of a beet sugar and other manufactories in this P£jvince. That such Trustoes be appointed by the Government, and approved of by resolution of this Council* That tiie said Trustees be requested to obtaiu all necessary information relative to Che cost of the establishment of such manufactories on a small scale, and if on inquiry they are satisfied that such manufactories could be established and carried on successfully ; that they be empowered to expend the eaid sum of £500 in such manner as they shall consider most likely to attain fcke object in view." Said it was most desirable that manufactories of different kinds should be established in this Province. But before the Council votes any sums of money lor a beet sugar mannfactory it was necessary that a Committee shonld be appointed, .to inquire whether there would bo ,a profit likely to be derived from it From what he had read ho was of opinion that beet-root sugar could be produced at a profit, and if so, it would be a vast benefit to the Province. He thought it was necessary for this Committee to inquire into the matter ;*for unless a profit was to be derived, it was useless throwing public money away, but if there was a feir chance of sneeess, then it was the duty of tho Government to assist, to enable a company to try and manufacture it. The climate here was not always favonrablo for the grain crops. Last season it had been very unfavourable, and this was a proof that Uie farmers ought to have something else to fall back upon. Now a wet season would have do injurious effect on beet, except perhaps to make the saccharine matter less in the root. At all events, it might bo tried. There was not only beet sugar, but there were other manufactures. Cloth might be made here profitably, from die advantage of being able to bay wool at the first cost, and. from there being virtually a protective duty. If a manufactory was started here, the consumers would not have to pay import duties ; and tke manufacturers being able to bay their wool at the lowest price, would be ioa position to sell the cloth at a cheaper rate than it could bo imported. Helping theso industries, he thought would give rise to other pursuits, the present heavy duties forming a sort of protective duty on all borne manufacture. Protective duties were undesirable, aud he believed ia free trade in «very sense of the word, but it was necessary lie saw, for some years to come that the custom's duties should remain, iv some respects, as they were to meet the present permanent charges ; therefore, by adopting such means as he had suggested, it would benefit the Pro-

vince and bring oat the resources of the couutry. If we can import and make a profit on snch things as sugar, bacon, cheese, &c, he considered it wrong not to save the money in the place and manufacture such articles at home. He believed that were sugar, bacon, and cheese manufactories established in this Province, the benefit would he greater than any one dreamt of, for if a man was not skilled in produciug good cheese or batter, (not fresh, but such that would keep, and could be exported), why he could take his milk to the manufactory, and thus turn to utility what was often nseless to him. He had J brought tho motion forward that business men of the place might inquire into the subject, they being more likely to get correct and reliable information than the Government. The money was not to bo given by the -Government to Btarfc manufactories, but to assist them, so that the loss, if aHy, should noHWI on the persons who had advanced their capital for the benefit of the place, but that the Government should take part in the risk. Ho bad no doubfcin his mind that it would be very desirable to encourage manofac- • tories. It was in consequence of bad crops, and the want of means to carry on farming operations, that laboar in this Province was not fully employed. These manufactories would tend to employ this surplus labour, and the Province wonld 6oon become in a prosperous condition. He begged to move the motion standing in his - llame. Mr. Free seconded tho motion. Mr. Upjohn agreed with the principle laid down in the motion, .but believed it was the wrong way to assist. He believed in bounties, by which means an impetus might be given to many trades. Ho considered that in young countries bounties should be paid. He wonld p>ovo as an amendment to the Provincial Secrok tary's motion, that all the words after " purpose of" be Btruck out, and tho following words substituted—" paying a bonus of so much per ton for every ton of sugar, flax, pork, salt, or bale of cloth manufactured in this Province." He moved this amendment because he considered that paying so much & ton would stimulate and act as a subsidy ; he would even extend it to other branches of industry. But for the money to be spent for the manufacture of a particular article "he was decidedly averse to, and would voto against it. Ho begged to move his amendment. Mr. Tatton thonght that before they talked of voting any money it was desirable for them to see if the Province had any to spare, and not to waste it in trying experiments. With regard to the motion and amendment before the Council he was in favour of the amendment. He believed that bounties wonld give an impetus to local manufactures. ■He would second the amendment, for he thought it was a desirable object to carry out— ealt in particular as well as cloth. We send wool home, and afterwards import it back again. Nelson mnnnfactnred very good cloth, and ho believed, made a very-fair profit ; but with regard to sugar, it was a question if we could manujacture it cheaper than we could buy it or import jfe from the Mauritius. - Good sugar was sold in the town at sixpence per -pound. — Could it be mann/Htured hero for that ? Tlio beet had been.

tried in England, and had not answered. Ho would rote a Bum to be givon as bonuses, but he was not in favour of monoy being voted to make experiments with.

Mr. Gledhill eaid that the first time he saw the place he felt convinced that this province was available for a manufacturing community. His reason for thinking so was from seeing the numerous streams that flowed from tho mountain throngh different parts of tho province. He thought that the reason why manufactories had not been established here, was from the cause that the people had turned thoir energies to farming and agricultural pursuits. But to speak to the question, he thought it very desirable to establish manufactures, if only to keep tho money in the placo ; for if they manufactured the things they now imported they would not only be gainers in money, but they would be helping the Province to progress. He did not believe in that part of the amendment which fixed the rate at per bale ; he thought it would bo more desirable that the bounty should be fixed at per piece — which was twenty-eight yards. They should try and manufacture for homo consumption before they talked of baling off. Then again they had not mentioned what size the bale was to be. He thought the amendment shuald be a little more explicit regarding cloth. He thought that other industries should receive the bounty as well as those mentioned in the amendment — shoomaking for instance ; why not give a premium for this branch of industry. He wished to see everything that could be made in tho Provinco manufactured here, so that they might retain the money in the place instead of sending it away. Mr. Brown thought that both tho motion and amendment required their reconsideration before they were passed. He knew nothing that would induce him to spend a shilling in the manufacture of beetroot sngar. He had read that in France it only paid them to distil spirit from the beet, and. that tho manufacture of sugar was a failure. Bnt whether it would pay here or not, he did not see that they were in a position to hang np £500 for an indefinite period. There was a depression of trade existing in the Province at the present time, and this subsidy was intended to stimulate capitalists, but he thought the depression would have passed away before the £500 would be available. As to transferring it to trustees, why, if a speculating gentleman made one of them, the money would all be spent in no time ; or if an over carofulmau, none would bo spent at all. In one case it would be all squandered, while in the other the money would be hung np. He objected to tho bounty system, for the bounty would bo so small on each article that it would be nseless co the manufacturer. He advised them not to "hang up " the money, or pay it away in subsidies, for, the latter tended to create lazy habits. There were other pursuits in the Province besides new manufactures, which if properly attended to would pay, aud pay well. There was the growing of grass seed. The price was high, but the seed sent to market was bad. Then again there was cocksfoot — he had not seen any clean or good. Timothy can bo produced here, and grows well ; clover likewise, aud yet we have got none to export ; there was pressed hay, and other things which were not new to them. He advised them to stick to old, and not meddle with new industries, which could not ripen and bear fruit within reasonable time. The speaker oonoluded by saying that it wonld be ill advised to have the money put into trustee hands, for by doing so it locked it up for an indefinite time. Mr. Gledhill in expiation stated that tho last speaker was mistaken in saying that sngar manufacture had failed in France, more than one hundred mills exist at the present time. Mr. Looney objected to have the money locked np for this or any other purpose He approved of a cloth manufactury being established, but did not see the utility of spending the money to start a beet-root sugar establishment because he bolieved it would not pay. The machinery would cost two or three times as mnch as in France, and while labour there was only a shilling a day, here they would have to pay five at the very least. He considered if they had money to spend they could not do better than lay it out in making roads and building bridges. He should vote against both the motion and amendment. Mr. King don did not see why the money should be locked up in the bank for an indefinite period. He should support the amendment. Mr. Gledhill suggested that the words "and paid to trustees " be struok out of the resolution altogether, and that " paid by the Government" be substituted. He thonght that the least they had to do with trustees the better. Mr. KellY in reply said that as regarded the amendment, he was not opposed to it, but thought it required a further amendment. With the present unsettled times, when the General Government might take over the affairs of the Provinces, and — Provincial Governments might disappear,-*- he thought it wonld be unwise to leave money in the provincial chest, for the time might come, when, if the money was not forthcoming, they wonld commit a breach of faith with those who might have invested their money on the strength, of the resolution. But if it was put out of the power of tho Provincial Government — if it was put into the hands of trustworthy persons — persons of experience, then it would be safe, and at their call at any time. He also agreed with Mr. Brown in his remarks that there was not sufficient activity showu in producing grain crops. With! regard to the produce that might be made to pay, there was cheese, baoon, hams and grass seed, all of which might be made articles of export, but seed was the only thing that was sent away. He thought that besides those articles, if they could also manufacture cloth, sugar, and such like, it would not only be beneficial to individuals, but to the Province likewise. With regard to Mr. Upjohn's remark, he agreed partly with him, but thought that the per oentage should be on the mercantile value (hear). Sugars might be produced of different values, and the inferior would have as much of the bounty as the more expensive kinds, but if the money was placed in the hands of trustees, they could inquire into the value and award the bounties accordingly. The amendment was then put, and a division called for. Ayes, 5. — Messrs. Looney, Brown, Kelly, Free, and Elliot. Noes, 8. — Messrs. Gledhill, Tatton, Lawrence, Mace, Snell, Upjohn, Veale, Kingdon. Mr. Kelly then moved as an amendment " That this Council approves of the sum of £500 being appropriated and paid to Trustees for the purpose of paying a bonus of bo much per cent, on the mercantile value of every ton of sugar, flax, cloth, extract of "bark for tanning, manufactured in this Province." In moving this amendment he thought that there should be a few articles of manufacture encouraged, that the money should not be split up into a great many objects, neither should it be allotted to one to experiment with ; but the money should bo awarded as a bonua on the mercantile value of the goods manufactured, jlr. Tatton seconded the amendment. Mr. Gledhill said he did not credit that tho cost of machinery would be four times as much as in France. Mr. Brown had Baid that there was no good grass seed in tho place, perhaps the persons preferred selling chaff with the seed. Bnt what he complained of was that persons would not buy local produce. Why, a miller in this place had gono south and purchased 400 tons of flour ; why could not the wheat be grown here cheaper than it could be imported ? Mr. Elliot said that there was no doubt that encouraging local manufactures was a step in the right direction, but he did not consider the money should be allowed to remain unnsed any considerable time. With regard to the boet-root, he had not the slightest doubt that they could grow it, bnt could they produce sugar from it ? Bnt as it could not be put into crop under 10s. per ton, and the cartage and other expenses adding another pound to its cost, he was certain it would not pay to grow it here ; where it paid to grow, labour Jwas very low. If it does not pay to grow in England, bow could they expect it to pay here. With rogard to what had been said about the farmers, he might mention that this wan an extra bad season ; it had been very wet, and of course the Bamples of grass seed were pot what they ought to have been, and it hod been a worse year for wheat. But with regard

to the question, he did riot think it would be right to look up the money for two or three years. Tho Provincial Government might be defunct, and the Goneral Government perhaps wonld not think it necessary to let 'the money bo spent as they had voted it. Mr. Upjoun thought thafcbypaying a premium it would tend to raise the price of the articles. Some observations had beon made about tho merchants and millers going out of the Province to purchase. He was sorry to say since the war they had got into that habit, and now they did not want to deal with the people hero, for fear of them knowiug what thoir profits were. Ho did not think they wanted any new industries introduced till they had consumers for them. Nearly everyone in the place was a producer. Many kept cows in the town at the farmer's expense, for those animals strayed into their farms and damaged their crops. They were all producers here, therefore, what they wanted were consumers. He was not wedded to his resolution, but would ask leave to amend it to that of the Provincial Secretary's. Tho question being put, tho Council divided. Ayes 10 : — Messrs. Gledhill, Tatton, Lawrence, Mace, Kelly, Free, Snell, J. Vealo, Upjohn, Kingdon. Noes 3 : — Messrs. Looney, Brown, Elliot. ORDERS OF THE DAY. The Council then went into Committee on the orders of the day. Mr. Speaker having left the chair, the first order on the paper was called on. ROADS AND BRIDGES. Mr. Kelly moved in — " That this Council is of opinion that the control of main lines of road and of all bridges should vest in a County Board. That such Board shall consist of the Superintendent for the time being as chairman, and four members of the Provincial Council. That the Board be empowered to levy a general rate, to be colleoted together with the local rates on all rateable lands within the Province, such rates not to exceed nor be loss than one penny per acre, and to be assessed on such of the Road Districts as are benefitted by a main line of road, or had roads or bridges constructed out of Provincial funds, such assessment to be in proportion to the comparative benefit such District has received from the expenditure of such funds. That tho funds derived as aforesaid shall first be expended ou the maintenance and extension of the main line of road, the erection and maintenance of bridges thereon, and of bridges on District roads, and the expenses of the Board." He believed that there were too many boards and too many men to do tho work. Ho had lately seen a record of tho roads in the Isle of-Man (and bettor roads ho had never seen than wero there,) and he found that there was not one quarter of the number of meu to manage them as they had in this Province. The system they adopted in that island of making the roads, was paymoub or labour, and it worked well. It seemed to him to an be admirable system. Ho thought the committee should also inquire into and report how they were to make and keep in repair the main lines of road without making tho burden fall too heavy on the farmer ; for all who had carts and horses and used tho road should contribute. He wished to see the rates properly adjusted. Mr. Tatton said he had an interview with many of his constituents of the Grey Block, and they all protested against being taxed to keep the Great South Road in repair. They had protested against the road being made, and yet it was done, and they would protest against paying a tax to keep it in repair. Thero was more than twenty miles of road of which his constituents never travelled on, and which many had never seen. Ho thought it was as much as they could afford to keep thuir owu roads in repair without buing dragged into keeping that also. The speaker advocated the establishment of a turnpike on the road. He thought that they were going ou too fast for a new country, and that they wanted to do everything at once. Mr. Kingdon thought the Road Districts far too small, and that ib was unadvisable for the Committee to retire annually. He was likewise of opinion that the mainlines should be made into a separate Rond District. Mr. Fbee argued with the last speaker that tho Road Districts were far too small. He thought that'the present Committee should be discharged and another appointed to inquire into tho whole question. Mr. "Elliot was in favour of a toll gate being placed on tho trunk roads. He disagreed with the two previous speakers, regarding tho size of tho districts. He advocated small districts, and could see nothing in favour x>f large ones. He thought they should remain as they were. Mr. Looney considered that the only way to raise money to keep the trunk roads in repair, was by a toll bar, and if that was not sulficient why a portion must be taken from eaoh district. Each main line should be left in the charge of the district through which the road passes. Mr. Kingdon's roasons for objecting to small districts, were that they never made the branch roads meet eaoh other. Mr. Gledhill thought there would be a difficulty in collecting the tolls at turnpikes. Mr. Upjohn advised the Provincial Secretary to withdraw his motion. He believed that if au alteration was made in the old Road Bill, by which a person mighb be allowed to work out his road rate, it would answer tbe purpose that was required. He did not think that districts should be too large, for persons did not like to go farther from their homes to work than it was necessaiy. He found parties very willing to work between their homes and town, but, beyond their homes be found great difficulty in getting the roads made. Lasb year he found seven out of every ten who said they would sooner pay than work, but this year they had come to him and asked if they could work thoir rates out. He wished to see a Comihittee appointed, so that they might obtain information to guide them. Tho speaker then explained with what .little expense the Board was carried on ; and concluded by advocating that the gentlemen who owned property on the Great South Road should be compelled to keep it in repair, and if they refused, he would advise the Government to bring down a Bill to make them, and he would support ib. Mr. Gledhill thought it would be an injustice and a hardship to compel tho owners of land on the road to keep it in repair, for the present owners might not always possess it ; therefore it would fall on the shoulders of some one perhaps who had paid a fair price for the land. He thought that there was aa advantage in toll gates, for it made many pay who used the road, from whom a tax could be collected in no other way. Persons who rode on horseback for pleasure would have to contribute, and in that case he thought they would get sufficient money to keep the .roads in repair. Mr. Kelly after a few remarks asked leave to withdraw the motion standing in his name on tho order paper of tho day. The Speaker then resumed his chair, and order No. 2 having been discharged from the notice paper, the Council adjourned till Tuesday next, at 2 o'clock.