DEFEAT OF THE GOVERNMENT

Taranaki Daily News, Volume LIV, Issue 319, 8 July 1912, Page 5

DEFEAT OF THE GOVERNMENT

A STRIKING REVERSE. ALL-NIGHT SITTING OF PARLIAMENT. MASSEY SCORES A MAJORITY OF EIGHT. SIDE LIGHTS ON THE LIBERAL CAUCUS. ATTACK MADE BY AN EX-MINISTER. The second session of the Eighteenth Parliament of New Zealand will long remain memorable in the history of the Dominion, as it marked at its opening the first defeat of the Liberal Government during a period of over twenty years. On Tuesday last the Leader of the Opposition, Mr. W. F. Massey, moved an amendment to the Address-in-Reply, to the effect that the House had no confidence in the Ministry as constituted. After a debate extending over four sittings of the House, the amendment was carried in the early hours of Saturday morning by 41 votes to 33, and the Government, being defeated, will at once go out of office. Several members who were elected last December on the Liberal ticket, voted against the Government, including the Hon. J. A. Millar, an ex-Minister of the Crown, whilst the Hon. R. McKenzie, another ex-Minister of the Ward Government, although present and participating in the debate, refrained from voting. The story of the dying hours of the Mackenzie Administraton' is graphically told by our special Parliamentary correspondent. , RESIGNATION OF THE GOVERNMENT. MR. MASSEY SENT FOR. I (Prom our own correspondent.) "WELLINGTON, Last Night. The Government resigned at 5 p.m. on Saturday. Mr. Massey was sent for by His Excellency in the evening, and said he was Prepared to form a Ministry. He will, however, ask for an adjournnent. on Tuesday for a few days, so that he can consult with Mr. Herries, who will arrive on Wednesday.

Wellington Saturday Xiglit. At 5 o'clock this morning ihe fate of the Liberal Party, led by the Hon. T. Mackenzie, was sealed. The final division resulted in 42 votes being polled for Mr. Massey's party, and 34 for the Government of the day. In due course the members of the Ministry will hand jn their resignations. The iirst trial of strength on a motion ,to adjourn was defeated by an Opposition majority -of six. At 11.45 p.m. Mr. A. 11. 'liindmarsh moved the adjournment of the debate. Mr. Isitt seconded the motion.

say tliat the leader of tile Opposition had been guilty 'of tactics which no other leader in the world would adopt. Mr. Xosworthy: Take your beating like a man.

The Hon. G. Laurenson (heatedly): He is more of a man", every inch, than you are.

The Minister was obliged to withdraw this expression.

The Hon. Mr. Mac Donald continued his remarks. He said that his position in the Ministry was not of his seeking, and lie would not weep if the next division went against them. He had been elected to support the Liberal party, and he did not know words which would adequately describe a man who broke his pledges without going before his constituents. As for himself, he claimed to be an honest man. The Ministry had been criticised by the leader of the Opposition, but as far as he was concerned he. could hold up his head without reproach. When lie entered politics he had certain ideals for the uplifting of humanity, and if he had failed he had only done what other good men had ld<|ne. He had never shirked his responsibility. The greatest and strongest indictment against the late Government was in regard to borrowing money. What was that money for? For the development of the country. Sir J. G. Ward had never raised p. penny that the Opnosition had not ui'Q'ed. That being so. the Opposition should take its just share of the responsibility. Mr. E. Newman had referred to loans in local bodies under tlie old Act, and the position as it existed to-dnv. He explained the system as it operated, and went on to deal with native lands. The Opposition pointed to the present Cabinet as a leasehold one. He denied this,' and quoted figures to show the area of native and other lands which had been disposed of on the freehold principle.

Mr. James Allen raised the point that Mr. Isitt could not second the motion. ; The Speaker replied that Mr. Isitt was ■in order. ! The motion to adjourn was defeated by 39 votes to 32. • It obviously came as a shock to the Government to see Messrs. Reed (Bay of Islands)', Coates (Kaipara), and (Rhodes (Thames) walking into the Opposition lobby. The division list was as 'follows:— ' Ayes (33) —Messrs. Atniorc, Brown, ;Buddo, Buxton, Carroll, Colvin. Dnvev, 'Dickie, Ell, Forbes, Glover, Hanan, Hindmarsh. Isitt, Laurenson, McAllum. McIDonahl, T. Mackenzie, *Mvers. Parata, Payne, Te Rangihiroa, Robertson, Rusissoli, Seddon. Side}', S. W. Smith, J. C. ' (Thompson, Veitch, Ward, Wilford. and Witty. , Noes (30) —Messrs. Allen, Anderson, ■Ttell. .1. Bollard. R. F. Bollard, Bradnftv. Buchanan, Buick. Campbell, Coates,. Dick!son. Escott, Fisher. Frascr. Guthrie. iHarris, Herdinan, llinc, Hunter, Lang. •Malcolm, Mander. Massey, A. K. Xewiinan, E. Newman, Nosworthv. Okey. Pearce, Pomare. Reid, R. IT. Rhodes. T. [W. Rhodes, Seott, F. IT, Smith. Statham. Sykes, G. M. Thomson, WiHon, and Young. Mr, R. McKcnzie'.s vote was subsequently recorded with the ayes. The debate was then resumed.

Mr. Fisher: Dries that include Mokau? Mr. MacDopald: No. Mokau was not native land dealt with by Hie Crown. T thought yon knew something nf Mofcan bv this time. 1 Tn the last two years, he continued, 20(i,000 people had taken up 1.200,000 acres of native land'. That would show that 'the native land was being settled very fast. Whether his time as a Minister -was lout; or short he intended to see that justice was done to the native race.

'•THE REFORM PARTY WILL NOT LAST." There were once more signs of the main debate collapsing, but Mr. R. W. Smith) (Waimarino) stepped into the breach and declared that whatever happened New Zealand was a Liberal country and it would have a Liberal Government. Tf the Government was faced with a slight reverse, and the Reform Party came in, they could not last. Some members had broken tlieir pledges, and it was only on pledge-breakers that they could win. ITe approved of light railway lines, and in regard to lbcal government reform he said that those who condemned the present system should have something to propose in its place. ITe did not approve of the proposal to bring an outside man here who knew nothing of New Zealand. Australia bad paid dearlv for bringing in imported managers. Every man in the service at the present time should have the opportunity of starting at the bottom and going richt to the top. As to the political position, he said that it was practically the same as when the last no-confidence division was taken. The leader of the Opposition was asking the House to give him a blank cheque. He defied anyone to say what the Reform policy was. After' discussing various proposals in the speech, he attacked, the member for the Bay of Islands. He declared that Mr. Reed had fought to get Mr. Mackenzie elected, and now they saw the, wav lie showed his loyalty. Whim it was'rumoured that several people were going to "turn dog" on their party, lie made inquiries. He never knew a. man who had taken the action ' the member for tb« Bay of Islands had who had not committed political suicide. When the electors of the Bay of Islands Sfot the full strength of what had taken •nlaoe. Mr. Reed would get what he rich'v deserved. The country had _ recently heard too much of party polities'. The nuostion of whether Mr. Masvy or Mr. Mackenzie should lead should he submitted to the people of the Dominion. Thev should say who should manage their affairs.

THE PRIME MINISTER. SITUATION ONE FOR CALMNESS. PREPARED TO CO TO THE COUNTRY. The TTon. T. Mackenzie. Prime 'Minister. rose amidst hearty applause from both sides. The situation was one. he said, which should be approached calmly. (Hear, hear.) "I will never," he sa'd,' "forget the loyalty of those men who stood behind me in the last division, and who will do so in the next. I should deeply have loved to have had the confidence of all associated with my election to the position," Continuing, he said that he was proud to be associated with Mr. Mac.Donaid. and to listen to the ringing honesty of the speech he had delivered.' (Hear, hear.) From every member of the Ministry he had received nothing lmt loyal assistance. He then proceeded to congratulate the mover and seconder in the time-honored way. to welcome Mr. Wilford back, and to express his sympathy with Mr. W. H. Herries. who was returning to New Zealand without .his dear wife. He regretted that 011 an occasion like this they had not heard the Opposition in argument. They had not had a word of criticism of the policy outlined in- the last day or two. While the Opposition criticised the Speech as having nnthinff in it. they also claimed that it did not contain sufficient o.f the February Speech. Surely that was a contradiction. While Mr. Massev professed to be confident, he (the speaker) on his part was equally confident, and was prepared to ?o to the country on the policy outlined. He did not believe that Mr. Massoy was anvthin<r but progressive and Mberal. hut could he get rid of his entanglements? Mr. Vflssev had also coinn'niiied (hat the Ministry had not met the House in February, but by two votes the House decided that the constitutional position had been met.

A MISSING! VOTE. Tlio TTon. B. McTCenzie rose amidst annlausc. "There is no need to applaud," Tin said. "T am not {miner to ppp.nk. at least. just. now. T want to point out that mv voto with the 'aY.es' ill fho Inst division was not recorded." Bo 111 Mr. Ontliri" and "Mr. Forbes (MWO said tint, ilicy had not lionrd M'\ Mi'Kenzie record his vote. Mr. Sneaker said that lie saw Mr. Me-. Tv'uzie standing i">nr the "are" lobby, ai'il ordered that his vote should he recorded. This made, the division 3f) to 33. ••'•"CREKPINf} ANT) SCTTEMTNfi." "T VKE YOT'P BEATING LIKE A MAN." The TTon. W. T). S. MncDmahl <"iid that he had nothing to sav about how certain members had vot?'l. but owin.c to the creeping aidttrtwwMfcjhM^

TITE OPPOSITION WTLL II AVE TO BORROW. Speaking on borrowing, be sa.it! that if (lie Opposition cni'm-" into_ nowcr it would have to raise a five million loan to meet the requirements of the conntr<\ Time was when the leader of. tljie On* nosition did not believe in borrowing inueh. but lie had changed his view= inct ;i? changiwr eire"ins)anees wonbl require a man to do! Political economy was a. channrin.fr science, and it was true 1 that he opposed the Lands for <!etHement Act when it was first introduced. He 'did so because there was much Crown land Ivins; idle awaiting settlement. Thu position was different to-day. a'"V sub-

made the Act a splendid, success. He*! Mr. Ilhodei went on to explain that'he referred to the land settlement pro- j had pointed out that he had made only posals in the Speech, and mentioned thattwo pledges to his people, v«., one that these were absolutely necessary to se- | he would' support Sir Joseph Ward at cure the settlement of the land. The the outset, and that he had redeemed.

land would have to be settled by the right class of man, who would turn out a good producer, and combat the socialistic tendencies of some of the people in the cities. The most modern, practical, and scientifis instruction had to be given to the man on the land, and ' if there was one thing he regretted on his retirement from office, it would be his severance from the Agricultural Department, In the Government's policy a vigorous settlement of the land was outlined in the Graduated Land Tax Amendment, which he proposed putting on the Statute Book. The tax at the present time would be slightly lessened ftp to £7500 value, hut at £30,000 value the tax would be increased from £139 to £199, and so on, in gradually increasing assessments that would ensure lartre areas and holdings being j brought into closer settlement. I NONSENSF ABOUT TENURES. A great den! of nonsense had be n n

talked about tenures. What were the facts? A man who could get aOO years' lease on endowment lands with the right of renewal was not badly off. Any one who objected simnlv wanted to f;irm the farmer. He declared that the Government was not a leasehold government. It had increased the freehold. Tts policv was enshrined in the laivs of the country. The Government's programm 0 was brought down unanimously, and it was idle to discuss the personal members of the M'nistrv. He asked members to consider the huge areas of swamn lands which the Government was at present bringing into cultivation, and also to note what they were doing bv way of experiments, by subsidising and encouraging fruit culture and the exploitation of markets. Fruit had now

been placed oti tlie Home market, and lie ventured to say that tliero would be a .Treat trade yet with America and the AllanHc seaboard. Tn ra'iv ways the Government was helping flic farmer hv the establishment of experimental farms. Tt was also search ins for markets, and the prosnects of ihe future were verv stood', when tillpy eouhl look forward to breaking down certain fiscal barriers. : GOOD GAG, TiUT XOT SOUND ! TOLICY.

The Speech contained proposals _ for the construction of light railway lines. ITe knew his old colleague, Mr. R. McKenzie, did not agree with him. Mr. R. McKenzie (Motueka): Perfect rubbish. The Prime Minister said that it would never be proposed to make the lines part of a main system, but they could be run as feeders. The Opunake district was ?. case in point. Mr. R. McKenzie: Good gag, but not sound policy. The Prime Minister said that the system of light lines had proved highly productive in many countries. Mr. R. McKenzie: Mr. Hall-Jones tried it, and had to pull the line up and scrap it. The Prime Minister: But Mr. Hall- [ Jones could haul much. 1 Mr. R. McKenzie: More than yon i could. The reflection was not justified. The Prime Minister went on to reply | to Mr. Massey's allusion to the various i opinions represented in the Ministry. Mr. Massey lie described as a freeholder, and said that whether the Ministry Sn- ' eluded freeholders and leaseholders, free- ! traders and protectionists, they were a i fine lot of men, who had not been given 1 an opportunity to show what they were I worth.

Mr. R. McKenzie: I think you have shown it already.'

{ The Prime Minister justified the seti ting up of, the Civil Service and other | commissions. The report of the Civil 1 Service Commission would show that ecrI tain reflections cast on it at various j times had not been justified. The Education Commission would also do iroorl work, because the Department required overhauling frequently. A charge was 'made that the Government had stolen the policy of tlie Opposition. He read from an Opposition paper a statement to (this effect, and said that if it was true ■j the Opposition should be behind the GovI ernment.

The only other pledge he had given ms that he would support the freehold at all times and before everything. That test was the only one that remained, and in taking the action he contemplated he thought he would l he best honoring that pledge. lie defied anyone to prove that he had ever done anything to disregard a pledge. He would support the leader of the Opposition if the measures he brought forward were of a Liberal and progressive character. A member: A leap in the dark'. Mr, Rhodes said lie was not going to blindly follow any party, but if the Opposition attempted to introduce any of the conditions which prevailed in the past they would not And him supporting them. This was a progressive age, and he did not think any government would go back to the conditions ■ of former times. Mr. Fisher: Hear, hear. Mr. Rhodes mentioned that he had not

Mv. Massev: And the Government in gaol. The Prime Minister: With you at the head of the gang. He went on to speak of Customs duties, and opposed a susrgestion that the dtitv on kerosene should be restored. Mr. Pi. McKenzie: I remember when you opposed the removal of the duty. The Prime Minister: I did nothing of the kind. The hon. gentleman must be mixing the two Mackenzie?.

Continuing, he remarked on some features- of taxation and customs, and argued that the country would have to be subdivided and brought into closer occupation. He did not want to see happening here what was occurring at T-Tome. One manufacturer alone there had bought out 220 yeoman farmers, and tlip country had been turned into deer parks. Land had been aggregated there, too. The work the Government h.i'l in band would have .been for the good of the country. HELP OYER THE FIRST HURDLE. In his concluding remarks, he said that it had been his endeavor to strike the highest possible level and keep Liberalism in the forefront. The debate had been of a very meagre order. The Opposition had maintained a silence that had been absymal. As far as those who attended the caucus were concerned, he said that they should have seen the Ministry over the first hurdle, and he would then have retmrned his trust to those who gave it to him. „He did not propose to place himself on a pedestal, but he had endeavored to be honest/ and had tried to carry out the duties which fell to him. "I feel deeply interested l in New Zealand," he said with feeling, " and I feel there is a great future before any body of men who undertake to do the work of the countrv." He refevred to the disturbing situation in the East, to the great island continent of Australia with its vast empty spaces, and declared that those who were entrusted with the destinies of the country should endeavor to get two or three'million more people here and maintain our system of military training for defensive and not for offensive purposes.

attended the Government caucus, and had not given any pledge to any single member of the present Ministry. The fight which had been going on seemed to be largely an argument ?.s to who should be boss of the show. He believed that the action he intended to take would be endorsed by most of his constituents. If he had made a mistake lie would be the one who would have to suffer. What the country wanted' at the present time was a stable government. Could that be best achieved out of the remnants of the Liberal party, split up as it was into various sections and with more aspirants than one for leadership* than by those who thought with him coalescing -with the Reform partv? Mr. R, McKeiuie: Sitting on the rail all the /time.

Mr. Rhodes: Well it has not hurt me much. I will be surprised if some persons who are sitting on a rail do not overbalance themselves more than I have. (Opposition laughter.)

OUT FOR A DISSOLUTION. ' THE HON. R. McKEVziE SPEAKS HIS MED. The Hon. I!. McKenzie said lie thought <hat he should say a few words. >' Ho ■ commenced with a declaration that at one time the Liberal party was .'a solid party, hut in recent years it had allowed * all sorts of wobblers to enter its ranks. He remembered John McKenzie, John Ballance and Richard John Seddon. They never'allowed within their ranks any wobbler who would not give them loyal support. 'What did thev find since? He had nothing to sav against the present gentlemen personally. They had to remember that the Hon. Thcis. Mackenzie had made a very fine appeal when the death sentence was about to be passed on him. He had to give the Prime Minister credit for that, and for doing jus-i tioe to those who '• sat < behind him. . "But," be saict "I know his career and history. I understand he was first -returned as a supporter of the late Sir v ' Geo. Grey. I hope the democracy and! the extreme radicals will remember that he is the only man sitting in Parliament who voted against one-man-ione-vote." Supposing they traced his history, they would see that he sat behind Rollesto®, Russell, and Hall. Did he imagine, that the old Liberals could forget that? He recognised' that this was not a time-for . personal . or political recriminations. When the.House met last February, he' 1 recognised that the Liberal party, or the remains of it. was about finished. He was one of those men who had voted for Liberal principles all his life. At the same time he was not going to vote for "Jim Jack Crow" (or something like > that), amd there were certainly men on the Treasury benches who should never have been there.

lIIS CTTTEF REGRET. He did not propose to deal at length with the future. He believed that the country was at the end of one era*, and the (lawn of another. Under existin? circumstances ho did not believe thnt the Government- could carry oil. Ilis chief regret was at leaving the Agricultural Department and severing his connection with the officers of the Department. He regretted also to leave his secretaries, one of the most loyal l»ands of men it would be possible to fimb As to the division, he said that he believed that whatever happened something better would be evolved. (Hear, hear.) "I do not say that in a party spirit; I speak in a wider sense." _ He concluded bv saying, amidst continued and hearty 'applause from both sides, that

AS BIG A TORY AS MR. MASSEY. The present leader of the party he could never recognise as his leader. While he was a colleague of the Hon. T. Mackenzie he found him an excellent administrator of the Agricultural Department, but his politics wefe not the speaker's polities. To his mind Mr. Mackenzie was just as big a Tory as Mr. Massey. There were four or five gentlemen in the House who represented tjie Labor party. He had sympathised with the-Labor party all his life, but''if anyone thought these four or five gentlemen were going to control the Parliament of New Zealand, he would say at once that he was not going to stand it., No man in the House could be an independent for any length of time. After ■the last election he had made up his mind to force every wobbler into soma camp. The present position was one which could not possibly last. When the division took place he would support the Government, but he was tied to the Goviernment in no way. When the caucus or conference, whichever term applied, was held, he made his position clear. He had told certain gentlemen that Sir Joseph Ward had been lwdly treated bv thp country, and that Mr. Millar had been Btabbe'd in the house of his WaFi he going to attach himself to a iparty which was prepared to carry on the government of the country on such lines ? He added that he was very much pained to listen to the speech of the son of an old friend of his. .He had told Mr. Tom Seddon what he thought of his advice to the Liberals to vote for the Mackenzie Ministry in the lobby, and; indicated to him that he would sooner go out of politics than do anything of the kind. He had nothing to say against anly member of the Ministry as a prr- 1 vate citizen, or as a member of the Hopse. One or two of them had beeft Tories all their lives. So far «jS his owi|l attitude was concerned, lie said thstt he was out for a dissolution. He did not object to a reasonable government being set up by an amalgamation, of members from both sides of the House. He then dealt at some length with paragraphs which he said had- been published in the New Zealand Times regarding this attitude. It was represented after the election that he stood in the, way of forming a Ministry, because he insisted on being elected.

MR. T. W. RHODES EXPLAINS.

NOT A PLEDGE-BREAKER,

INDIVIDUAL CRITICISM. TO MAKE HTS POSITON CLEAR HE RESIGNED. "Certain members desired ft clean sweep," he added. "I decided to let them have it. They have got a clean sweep*, and they are petting the result of it to-night. ' From the time I made up my mind to send in my resignation, I decided I was going to have a dear course to do what I considered best. Tonight when there was an attempt to catch a division I was not goinpr to lend .ny assistance to it. "What right," he asked, " has. Mr. Brixton to be. on the Treasury benches above, the heads of men who have supported the Liberal party for fifteen or twenty years? Why is Mr. Myers on the Treasury benches? What has he ever done for this country or the. Liberal party? If you subtract Mr. Myers' wealth 'from Mr. Myers he would never have been there at all. I hope he will not take this as a personal reflection. (Laughter). How can they expect me, or members like me, who have strong Liberal convictions, to support the so-called Liberal administration? I do not take the slightest interest in the fate of the present Government. I would as soon vote them out as vote them in. There is no doubt that they have been condemned from" one end of the country to the other. Thev were put

"Mr. T. W. Rhodes said that he was pipped to note that prrsonal matters had Jint obtruded on this occasion, as thev had in Feliruarv. The Prime, Min-

f disclosures which had been made quite | openly by men as to what had taken piaeo at the caucus. One tiling ho had always held the Opposition in the -highest esteem for, was the loyalty (.hey had always shown towards the secrecy of their caucus proceedings. Of the fa ileuses of the Liberal Party, as soon as _ a caucus was over the proceedings seemed to leak out in an extraordinary way. It appeared to him that an at-1 tempt had been made to create trouble i in connection with the last caucus, but he did not think there was any man on the Liberal side of the House who ought to take the present trouble in j. any spirit but one of philosophy. (Hear, j hear.). Why should there be any acerbity now, why any washing of dirty linen? He wanted to say distinctly that the men who had attended the Liberal caucus, with the exception of Mr. Isitt and the Labor members, had pledged themselves to stand by their leader. It was unanimously agreed to by all, including Mr. R. MeKenzie. It had been stated that there was friction between Mr. R. MeKenzie and himself. All who ,had attended the conference that he had done nothing to influence the position of either of these gentlemen, and he had no qualms of conscience. Mr. MeKenzie interrupted that he' never suggested that Sir Joseph Ward had done so. Sir Joseph Ward also declared that he had endeavored to influence no member of the Labor Party. (The Labor members signified assent). Sir Joseph went oil to say that where two members of the party were standing for the vacant leadership it was inevitable that there should be a division. He had not said this beIfore, but he said it no\v: If Mr. MeKenzie had told the caucus that he was going to stand aloof, why did lie not say so at the caucus? The members of the I Ministry, on the whole, had a most difficult position to fulfil, and after what had occurred they would see that anyone leading \ Ministry, and including his sincere friend, had not the easiest task in the world. Mr. MeKenzie: You and I never had .1 falling-out, anyhow. -Sir Joseph said that lie liad always stood up for his colleagues.

(Continued from page 5.) well. I must say that tliey have done fairly well in administering the affairs of the country so far as the time thev devoted to them allowed.'' He referred to the Prime Minister as a man who had voted against every Liberal leader, and then during the three vears he had been in the Ministry he' had got "every mother's son of us out," and attained the leadership. A PROTEST. Mr. W. J. Dickie said that he was surprised to hear the speech Mr. McKenzie had delivered. He regretted that he had to listen to such a tirade. The lion, member for Motaeka should not rim away with the idea that because lie was twenty years in the House he had to get a portfolio. Those people who expected to be Prime Minister were deserting the party now. MORE SIDELIGHTS. THE lIOX. J. COLVIN WANTS TO GO TO THE COUNTRY. The Hon. Jas. Colvin regretted that -Mr. McKenzie made the speech, he had. Why, if Mr. R. McKenzie held the opinions he had just expressed, did he recommend him to go into Mr. T Mackenzie's Ministry? Mr. T. Mackenzie did not enter the House on the Liberal side, but what were the facts? He went Home, and when he returned lie was elected as an Independent for the seat for which Sir John McKenzie sat. The speaker declared that he had never sought for a position, and he thought he had faithfully fulfilled every position he had occupied. He repeated that it was through Mr. R. McKenzie that he had joined the Ministry. Mr. Colvin stated that when he came to Wellington in March Mr. McKenzie told him that he (Mr. Colvin) should get into the Ministry, and advised him to stop in Wellington. Mr. Colvin continued tliat he dFd not stop in Wellington, but returned to the West Coast. There he received an offer of a Ministerial position. It was entirely unsought so. far as he was concerned. Mr. Colvin recalled his former relations with .Messrs. Millar and McKenzie. and stated that they had "impressed upon him at all times that loyalty to party was essential all the time. He hoped that a better Ministry would come in, but he must be loyal to the man under whom he had served for the last three months. He had never found Mr. Mackenzie engaged in any trickery or doing anything wrong, and' that was where he must find fault with his lion, friend, the member for Motueka. He only wanted to put the leader of the party right, and had only to say that they were going out and the Ministry was going out. He thanked the officer's of Jiis Department for the loyal and straightforward way in which they had assisted him. Since his very earlv davs, when he landed as a boy 'in New Zealand he had fought his* way unaided, and he felt sure that he could go down to Buller in any election and win it against any man. He hoped the House would give them a chance to go to the country, and lie was certain the Liberal Party would come back victorious.

LABOR VOTES. Sir Joseph went on to refer to the statements -by Messrs. Rhodes and Buchanan that in his position as Prime Minister he had induced two members of the Labor Party to break their pledges, so that a majority might be obtained by the late Government. Was there a man in the House who could say he had ever induced a mail to 'break his pledge? RETIREMENT FROM OFFICE. So far as his retirement from the leadership was concerned, he said that no man in the House knew that he proposed to relinquish the position. He told Mr. Millar a few minutes liefore he mentioned the matter in the House. He recognised that the Government could not carry on without a strong following behind it. and he would not have attempted to undertake the task. He had never been a3sociated in any political' intrigue, and he had never asked a member of the House, while he held them in the highest esteem, or a member of the Ministry for anything. THE HIGH COMMISSIONERSHIP. A statement had been published in the newspapers that he was quarrelling with the Prime Minister over the High Commissionership. That he denied. He could have had the position under two Prime Ministers, and since, but he had declined.

ATTACK RESENTED. Sir Joseph, continuing, said that ho was very sorry to listen to the attack made 'by the Hon. R. McKenzie. Mr. McKenzie: I simply stated the position. Sir Joseph: Any one of us can attack another. He declared that Mr. Myers had discharged his Cabinet duties with ability and integrity, and had he been leader he would have suggested that the debate should have been adjourned at 2 a.m. Still lie thought they should now take, the division and go home. Then they could congratulate the Leader of the Opposition and sympathise with liim. He recognised that Mr. Massey had a very heavy responsibility placed on his shoulders. Mli. McKENZIE IX REPLY.

PERSONAL EXPLANATIONS. Mr. R. McKenzie ro.se and said that he was someivliat surprised at his old friend. They had been friends for a very long time, and would be friends no matter what troubles might occur. Mr. Colvin had carried out every duty entrusted to him with entire satisfaction to the members of the House. His (Mr. Colvin's) memory of past events, however, was a little faulty. "I told him, as a personal friend," said Mr. McKenzie, "that I was not likely to join the administration, and as he was the oldest and most experienced member he was best qualified i.o follow me. I said that I would do my best to help him in the matter. Mr. Seddon and myself went down to the Mapourika and saw him off. I recognised that as a sensible, levelheaded mail lie ought to be included in the stop-gap Ministry, and I recognise that he is one of the best men they have now." Mr. McKenzie objected to Mr. Colvin's statement that he had made a personal attack on the present Prime Minister. It was not a personal attack, but an attacked base on the position that Mr. Mackenzie had placed himself in. Mr. Colvin said that he had nothing to reply further than that his friend had confirmed what he had said. Mr. McKenzie bad said that lie (Mr. Colvin) would almost certainly get into the Ministry if he stopped in Wellington. He did not stop, and he did" get into the Ministry. He believed that his lion, friend helped him. He (Mr. McKenzie) had a good deal of influence. The position. Mr. Colvin continued, came to him; he did not look for it. (Applause.) STR JOSEPH WARD ADVISES PHILOSOPHY. Sir Joseph Ward rose to speak early in the morning. He said that he wished to say one or two words about certain

Mr. R< McKenzie pointed out that there were two resolutions at the caucus. The first was that whoever was Prime Minister should carry out the policy in the Governor's Speech. He (Mr. Mckenzie) protested about parts of that Speech being thrown over. When two members of the party were proposed for the Premiership it was urged that they should withdraw altogether in favor of someone not in the previous Government at all. He did not intend to be placed in any false position; and he stated distinctly that he was finished with the whole proceedings of the caucus, and he was finished with the party. He had acted on that from that time to this. He had had no disagreement with Sir Joseph Ward while a member of his Cabinet. As for Mr. Myers, he looked upon him as an Independent member, and not as a member of the Liberal Party at all. Mr. Myers had no right to he there. Tho Prime Minister endorsed all that Sir Joseph Ward had said in regard to what had occurred at the caucus. Mr. Robertson (Otaki) also stated that Sir Joseph Ward's statement that he had used no influence on Labor members was absolutely correct as far as it applied to him. THE DIVISIOX. GOVERNMENT DEFEATED BY | EIGHT VOTES. I

The bell rang for the fatal division, and it was noticed that the. Hon. J. A. Millar entered the House with his ordinary clothes over his pyjamas. He spoke to a few members, sat down beside Mr. E. If. Clark, and afterwards went straight into the Opposition lobby. The Speaker announced that the Government had been defeated bv 42 votes to 34. The division list was as follows:

AYES (42). NOES (34) ALLEN ATMORE ANDERSON BROWN HELL BUDDO BOLLARD, J. LUXTON BOLLARD, R. F. CARROLL BRADNEY COLVIN BUCHANAN DAVEY BUICK DICKIE CAMPBELL ELL CLARK FORBES COATES GLOVER DIXON lIANAN ESCOTT ISITT ■FISHER lIINDMARSn ,FRASER LAUREttSON GUTHRIE McCALLUM tiarrir Mcdonald I HERDMAN MACKENZIE, T. HINE MYERS ,HUNTER PARATA LANG PAYNE MALCOLM POLAND MAUNDER RANGIHIROA • MASSE. V ROBERTSON MTLLAII ■ RUSSELL NEWMAN. A. K. SEDDON NEWMAN. E. SIDEY NOSWORTIIY SMITH, R. OKEY THOMPSON, J. C. PEARCE VEITCTI POMARE WARD REED WILFORD RHODES, R. T-T. WITTY RHODES, T. W. SCOTT SMITH. E. N. STATHAM SYKES ' THOMSON. G. M. WILSON YOUNG Pairs.—Lee (0.) and Craigie (G.).

A MANIFESTO. THREE MEMBERS JOIN MR. MASSEY. Early on Saturday morning the following manifesto was supplied to a reporter by Messrs. Reed, Coates and T. W. Rhodes. —"The constitution of the Ministry was such that the freehold principles held by us were seriously threatened in the Ministry. The large majority were leaseholders, and four of the Ministry were revolutionary in their treatment of the land question. For instance, during the last Parliament they endeavored to force on the Statute Book a clause in a measure confiscating to the State the unimproved value of Crown leases (farms and workers' homes) on the transfer of such leases. The result of the no-confidence motion was to decide whether a freehold party should be in power, or a Ministry containing the strongest leaseholders in Parliament. As freeholders, we decided, after very full consideration, to form a coalition with the freehold party, and to establish a stable Government to carry 011 the affairs of the country. 'We decided to take this course after 'having the assurance that the policy of the future Government would be 'both Liberal and progressive." MR. VERNON REED'S POSITION. In an interview after the division, Mr. Vernon Reed stated that his pledge to his electors was to stand by the freehold policy independent of party. As soon as lie heard the proposed composition of the Ministry, and before the appointments had been made, he declined to join the Ministry,' and told the Prime Minister elect that he would be a freelance, following his principles only, and would not promise to support the Ministry on a no-confidence motion. He maintained that attitude throughout, until he assisted in the coalition with the other freeholders after the vote.

FEELING IX THE LOBBIES. HON. T. MACKENZIE WILL RESIGN. THE XEW MINISTRY. , The lobbies and Parliament to-tday gave every indication of the exeitem-ent. Only a few members of Parliament can recollect what took place when the Atkinson Parliament fell to Ballance in 1891. Since then nothing of outstanding political importance ha 3 happened until Sir Joseph Ward resigned his position as head of the Government in March last. Now members are face to face with a condition of affairs of which they have no previous experience. For the first time in over twenty years the Government has gone out, and even the most ardent supporters of the Opposition find it difficult to readjust their political outlook. Meanwhile matters have been progressing on constitutional lines, and Mr. Speaker and a few members had an interview with His Excellency the Governor to-day. They conveyed to His Excellency the formal text of the Address-in-Reply, which, however, bore the unusual addition, "We feel it, however, to be our duty to submit to your Excellency that it is essential that your Excellency's Government should possess the confidence of the House and of the country, and respectfully represent to your Excellency that such confidence is not reposed in the Government as at present constituted." Usually, His Excellency's reply is a mere formality. On this occasion it assumed more im- ! portant proportions, because of the fact that there had been tacked on to it an expression of no-confidence in the Government, which spells the dissolution of the Liberal Government, and the incoming of a new political factor. His Excellency added to his reply the following paragraph: ''With reference to the paragraph in your .reply to my speech.

intimating to me that the House have The Speaker then put Mr. Massey's 110 t confidence in my advisers as at presamendment, which "was one of direct ell t constituted, I desire to assure you no-confidence in the Government, as fol- that I shall take the necessary steps to lows:— appoint advisers who will possess the "We feel it, however, to be our duty confidence of Parliament." There the to submit to your Excellency that it situation rests for the moment. The is essential that your Excellency's Go- Hon. T. Mackenzie will inform Ilis Exvernment should possess the confidence eellency that his Government has been of this House and the country, and to defeated, and in the ordinary course adrepresent to your Excellency that such. v j SP Hi a Excellency to send for Mr. Masconfidence is not reposed in the Gov- gOV- those preliminaries will be comernment as at present constituted." by Tuesday, and when the House

meets Mr. Massey will announce that he is going to form a Ministry, and that ho requires an adjournment to enable him to select his Cabinet and formulate liirf policy. Mr. Mackenzie declined to make any public statement when approached by ii press representative this morning. He was glad that the fight was over, lie felt more free from care than he had done for the last five years. He had nothing to reproach himself with. The fight had been fought on clean and wholesome lines, and the result could only be awaited. His resignation would be handed in to His Excellency the Governor in duu course.

THE NEW LEADER, AN ADJOURNMENT FOR A PEW DAYS. Mr. Mawey, who was at the Parliament Buildings at an early hour of the forenoon, was obviously showing the signs of the strain of the last few days, though full of his usual vigor. "I cannot say anything yet," he replied to a reporter, "except that I have received sheaves of telegrams of congratulations." Mr. Massey pulled a roll of telegrams out of his pocket. "Can you say anything about the future?"

Mr. Massey replied that he had seen the footnote to His Excellency's answer to the Address-in-Reply. He expected that he would be called upon on Monday or Tuesday, and that when the House met he would ask for an adjournment for a day or two, and would then meet the House and submit his plans. "ft has been a long wait, Mr. Massey." Mr. Massey merely nodded his head and smiled.

"Can you say what members of yotir party are likely to be in the Ministry?" "It is too early for anything of that sort," replied the late Leader of the Opposition. "I really cannot say anything that will help you until after Tuesday." In the event of the Governor sending for you before Tuesday, the adjournment you will ask for will only be for a few days! "Yes; only a day or so. Then I'll meet Parliament."

A LABOR VIEW. "THE FUTURE." "Wo candidly didn't tTiink it would happen," said Mr. Veiteh, of the Labor Party. "I, personally, was inclined to think that the Government would win a no-confidence motion on the same figures as they won the division in the last session. lam still firmly of opinion that even if the Government had won they would never have been able, under the existing conditions, to have done any really useful work. In regard to the new party in power, it would not be fair to say or pretend to predict whether they will remain in office for a long or short period. This, to me, depends altogether upon themselves and the legislation they are prepared to bring down. Reforms which the country is demanding, and which will inspire the confidence of the majority of people, are necessary, and if they bring them in they, ! no doubt, will continue, but if they don't', and prove themselves non-progressive and unwilling to meet the requirements of the majority of the people, sooner or later they ■must move on. My opinion is that we will never get a settled Government until a truly democratic party is formed to carry democratic reforms through the House. I believe that the Labor Party will fill that 'bill in the near future."

IN PRAISE OF MR. MACKENZIE. "You may depend upon it," said one member, "that the Hon. T. Mackenzie played the game. That speech of his which has caused so anuch favorable comment was merely a replica of -what had been going on lately. You may take it from jne that the late Prime Minister was up against a good deal more than appeared on the surface." THE NEW MINISTRY. SOME POSSIBILITIES. Mr. Massey has refrained so far from indicating who will be associated with him in the Government that is to take the place of the Government which has controlled politics in New Zealand for so long. Mr. Massey is naturally disinclined to speak on the possibilities of his Ministry, but the lobbies are talking about the subject freely, and members sum up the position something on these lines: Mr. Massey—Prime Minister and Minister of Land and Agriculture. Mr. J. Alien —Minister of Finance and Defence. Mr. R. IT. Rhodes (Ellesmere) —Post-mastcr-Genbral and Minister for Internal Affairs. Mr. A. L. Ilerdman—Minister of Justice. Mr. Herries—Minister for Railways and Native Affairs. Mr. J. B. Hine (Stratford) —Minister for Public Works. 'Mr. Buchanan, it is understood, definitely informed his party a fortnight ago that he would not accept office. In view of the fact that Mr. Hine will represent the West Coast of the North Island, the chances of Mr. E. Newman's inclusion in the Ministry aro reduced, but Mr. Newman has been such a strong supporter of the Massey party that it is not likely that his claims will be overlooked. The claims of Otago present greater complications. Mr. G. M. Thomson would, it is understood, make a good Minister for Education. Mr. W. Fraser is one of the oldest members of the new party. Mr. James Allen is generally considered as having the largest clain? to the portfolio of Finance, with Defence thrown in, but it always has to be remembered that for many years past Mr. Eraser's financial criticism has been of such a calibre as to mark him out for distinctive Ministerial rank when the occasion rose. Both on the Government and the Opposition side Mr. Fraser was regarded as a factor to be reckoned with when Dominion finance was being discussed. It seems difficult to imagine that tho new party will face the House minus his inclusion in the Cabinet. On the other hand, it is suggested that Mr. G, M. Thomson will be included in the Cabinet as Minister for Education. It does not appear at the moment probable that the Ministry can include more tfian tho ordinary proportion of Otago members.

THE UPPER HOUSE. A PROBABLE NEW APPOINTMENT. Tho Legislative Council will meet oil Tuesday. Tho appointment of a Chairman of Committees is fixed for that day. It is almost certain the Hon. W. C. F. Carncross will be appointed. The Council will then adjourn from day to day as long as the House of Representatives sits to transact the [business of the new Ministry. It is considered very probable, so one likely informant stated, that Mr. H. D. Bell will be offered the leadership of the Upper House. The portfolio of Attorney-Oeneral will go with the appointment, for that has l»een the custom for the last twenty-five years, the office being of a less party nature than if the portfolio were held in the Lower House. THE DIVISION OF 1800. "You remember the last Government

defeat in New Zealand?" a veteran member of the Reform Party was asked. "Very well indeed," he replied. "Did this event recall it?" "Wei!, it certainly did. Wo have been in opposition so long since then that one could not very well help looking back to the last time our party occupied the benches. I think there was less party feeling last night, and th# Prime Minister, to do him justice, struck a veiy happy note indeed in his speeches. Tn other quarters there was certainly more feeling displayed." 'Mr. Guthrie (Junior Opposition whip) had informed a reporter several days ahead of the position of affairs." "It has turned out as I anticipated," said Mr. Guthrie to-day. At no time durin" the whole debate were the Opposition whips in doubt about any one vote. We did no canvassing. Our party were absolutely determined, solid, and fixed in pin-pose. Mr. Massey's generalship was i excellent right through. He seized every opportunity, not only last night 'but right through the debate, and, as was expected by every member of his party, he rose to the occasion and proved himself the statesman which the country will find him later on.

WHAT MR. MASSEY WILL DO. "What Mr. Massey will proba-bly do," said a meniber who is supposed to be in touch with the trend of things, "will be to meet the House on Tuesday for a day or two, and then adjourn for a month to arrange his departments and his tinance. and tp bring down his estimates. He will then meet Parliament, submit his estimates and an outline of future policy, and adjourn for the session." AN OPPOSITION INTERVIEW. Ohristchurch, Last Night. Tn an interview Mr. R. Heaton Rhodes, Senior Opposition whip, stated that Mr. Massey and his party were naturally delighted at the victory achieved, but he could foresee that their position was a difficult one. The financial position alone created many difficulties, and the labor outlook was far from cheerful. As to the attitude of Mr. Millar, Mr. Rhodes stated that Mr. Millar had made it clear that he is not going to support Mr. Massey when he gets into power, but as to Mesrs, T. W. Rhodes, Reed, Ooates and dark, it is anticipated that they will be consistent and throw in their lot with Mr. Massey. It is anticipated 1 that Mr. Massey will ask for an adjournment until about Thursday.

LABOR'S POINT OP VIEW. Mr. F. Burgoyne, the newly-elected president of the Canterbury Trades and Lalbor Council, speaking from a • labor point of view, but not on behalf of the Trades Council, expressed the opinion that, he did not see how any Government could carry on under the present conditions, and his opinion is that if an appeal is made to the country 'Labor will get a better footing, and a 3trong Radical Government will be returhed. Labor had nothing to expect from a. Government presided over by Mr. Massey.