RELIGIOUS OBJECTORS.

Sun (Christchurch), Volume III, Issue 764, 22 July 1916, Page 11

RELIGIOUS OBJECTORS.

ALTERNATIVE SERVICE. WIDE DIFFERENCE OF OPINION. DISCUSSION IN THE HOUSE. [From our own Parliamentary Reporter.] WELLINGTON, July 21. The report to-day of the governors set up by the House of Representatives to confer with the representatives of the Legislative Council caused considerable discussion, and some determined opposition was shown to accept the report brought down. Mr Massey explained that the principal alteration in the Council's amendments, as agreed on by the conference, was that religious objectors would be exempted from "combative," but not from military, service. They would have to serve in the A.S.C. or the Ambulance Corps, or perform any service in or out of New Zealand. Mr Wilford: That overrules the resolution of this House. Mr Massey: Oh, no. The amendments were put in by the Council. Mr Wilford: They are passing us. Mr Massey: The word comhatant is substituted for the word military. It narrows down the position. Mr Wilford: Both terms arc equally obnoxious. Mr Massey: I do not expect to please the hon. member. We are only trying to do what is right. While to a certain extent the scruples of the strictly religious objector are respected, there is not the very slightest possibility of the shirker escaping. Mr Wilford: Oh, ves. Mr Massey: Well, I fail to see it. Mr Wilford: Suppose he is asked to erect barbed wire entanglements between the two lines! Mr Massey: That is an extreme case. He can be compelled to join the A.S.C. or Ambulance Corps. Mr Wilford: That is not to go free, but to have a safer job than the other fellow.

Mr Masscy: We all know, so far as the Ambulance Corps is concerned, quite a number of men have been shot, and, I think, some in the A.S.C. Mr Wilford: He is after the safe job. Mr Massey: In one case a man must go under lire in cold blood. If I had my choice I would prefer to take my place where the excitement is. This was the best arrange ment we could make with the representatives of "another place." We have amended their amendment, and made it harmless. 1 would do anything rather than lose the Bill. He moved that the report of the managers be agreed to. UPPER HOUSE RILE. Mr Wilford said that as he could not move a direct negative all he could do was to divide the House on the matter. The Upper House had succeeded in doing what it liked so far as this Bill was concerned. He objected to the Upper House dictating to the Lower House—the direct representatives of the people—as to what they should do. He hoped the House would stand to the motion that was previously carried that this amendment should not take place. NO RIGHT. He objected to a small section of the community having a right of exemption as against the rank and file of the people. The Quakers had no right to have this way out. The distance from the tiring line did not alter the right of the country to be defended. He knew who was at the back of this movement, and he knew what forces were pushing it. It was a very small proportion of the people of this country. FAIR AND REASONABLE. The Hon. James Allen (Minister of Defence) hoped the House would be unanimous in carrying the motion moved by the Prime Minister. The report constituted a fair and reasonable compromise, and he recommended the House as strongly as he could to accept it. He quite agreed that the member for Hutt was earnest, and he appreciated very much indeed the spirit in which he had dealt with this Bill ail through. But at the same time there were good reasons why this compromise should be accepted. The Upper House bad not got their own way by a good deal. The Council had provided for service for these men in New Zealand—away from the tiring line, away from danger. That had been cut out. Now. it was provided that a religious objector must work in the Ambulance or A.S.C. The whole question was this: Was the clause safe from the point of view of absolutely preventing any man who was a shirker from escaping?

Mr Wilford: That is the point. Mr Allen: Let hon. members look at it and see if there is any escape. ile has got to go to the Appeal Board which has to decide whether his appeal is genuine or not. Mr Hornsby: It would be a stilt proposition. Mr Allen: It would be a very stilt proposition for any man. But having done that it has been decided that a "man shall take up other service. The pay will not be higher than that given to men of the Expeditionary Force. Mr Hornsby: What becomes ol that manifesto the Quakers issued? SOME SERVICE NECESSARY. Mr Allen: 1 do not know of that manifesto. They cannot refuse to undertake some service on behalf of their country. 1 think we are perfectly safe from the shirker. A deputation representing all the religious denominations except the Salvation Army, he said, had waited on the Government in respect to this matter. Mr Wilford: They arc not men (if the world. Mr Allen said the deputation expressed itself in favour of the Bill, but urged consideration for the religious objector. Hut Ibey did want behind them in dealing with this important legislation the hulk of the opinion of the people of the country. OBSESSED. >h- L. M. Isilt (Christchurch North) said the extraordinary way the member for 11 Lit t was obsessed in his determination not to recognise conscience was shown by his arguments against the amendments. His speech suggested that the Upper House had no rights at all. There were many men who held views he deplored, but recognised, and he only advanced them because in some cases men had the genuine conviction that it was not right to kill, but their consciences would allow them to perform other service.

Mr Wilford: To help the other fellows do it. Mr Isilt: 1 admit the Quakers' position is very illogical, but the whole of the Quakers' position is very illogical. 1 have never pretended to have any sympathy with the view of the conscientious or religious objector. The deputation of clergy had asked lor consideration for the religious objector. Mr Wilford: They were not men of the world. Mr Isilt: No. If they were men of the world they would not he as rapable of judging matters of conscience. The amendment, he said, had been whittled and whittled down till the consideration they were giving the religious objector was the very smallest. OTHER SPEAKERS. Mr J. McCombs (Lyttelton) said the clause now would be of no use to the Quakers, and he was surprised that a" prolesl should come from those who had got all their own WSIV. Mr Wilford: Oh. no. Mr McCombs: Well, practically their own way. They might at least exempt the religious objectors. Mr ('.. v.. Statham (l)unedin Central) said he could not agree with the amendments. Il seemed that men who objected to Inemseives killing had no objection to paying others to do it. The Hon. W. Hemes hoped the House woidd agree with the report. They had to consider whether :»r not the Bill was to proceed. The Upper House, he understood, was united on this question. If Ihey threw out this report they would have to arrange another conference. After further discussion the report was agreed to bv -1-1 votes to 18.