SCRAPPING THE TRAMS

Poverty Bay Herald, Volume LII, Issue 17130, 4 September 1926, Page 14

SCRAPPING THE TRAMS

GIVING A BETTER SERVICE. DEFINITE PROPOSALS SU BMITTED MEETING J)F RATEPAYERS. A definite statement regarding what had .so far been done in connection with tiie scrapping of the Borough trams. and the service that could then be provided was given to ratepayers last evening, when between ICG and 150 ratepayers assembled in the Abercurn hall to hear the views of some of the Borough Council members.

The deputy-Mayor, Mr T. Todd, was in the elia.ir, the other councillors on the platform being Cr.s. 11. K. Maude, L. T. Burnard, J. Blair, andv .1. N. Billiard.

Mr T. Todd said that the trains were now costing the Borough between £6OOO and £7OOO a year, and if they were continued they would cost £IO.OOO a year. If they scrapped them they j would still have to pay interest, and sinking fund, amounting' to £3OOO. That left a" balance of £6COO or £7OOO in favor of scrapping. Extensions to suburbs did not now pay and bases beat them. •A voice: Buses eost £IO.OOO. Mr. Todd : If youi will allow me to finish we will give you a chance, In Glasgow the trams are losing money. A voice: This isn't Glasgow.! (Laughter.) Continuing, Mr. Todd, said that we could Jearn something from Glasgow. The cost of a tram track was very much greater than the cost of putting down a pood bitumen road. It had been said that buse.s would not carry the people, but the population of London was catered for by buses. It was said that fares would be higher, but Maugapapa buses were charging only 3£d for 2£ miles. If it paid them at that fare it was evident that other bus proprietors could run at low fares. liases had a had run in Gisborne because they were' prohibited from running against the trams. The council had refused to allow a, bus proprietor who wanted to run from Kaiti through the town to charge less than 6d, thus preventing him competing with the trams'/ They were told that there could be no guarantee of a service, but the council had had replies, from six or seven different organisations, all of which were willing to come here and start a service. He had endeavored to make himself perfectly clear to all the bus proprietors who had visited Gisborne that there, were local bus proprietors who deserved consideration. A voice ; Why consider the outsider at ail?

Mr. Todd:: Because I want to be fair. Mr. Tustin : Will Mr. Todd tell us how long a bus proprietor will guarantee a .service for?

Mr. Todd : For a year. Mr. Tustin : That's no good. A voice: We'll all have motor cars bv then.

Mr. Tustin: .Will you get a bus to] take 92 passengers as our trams do? < Mr. Todd: You won't get as many into one bus as you will get into a, train, but you will get more buses. ! PROGRESS AFFECTED. Mr. J(. E. Maude .said that two local accountants had verified Mr. Clarke's figures, which showed that the trams: were a menace to the town. The trams affected the progress of the borough, for it was not sound business to have a losing tram service. True progress was only attained by the wise expenditure of money, and in this case the expenditure had not been warranted by the results. It had been asked why the Kaiti bus service had not paid, but the, reason lay in the 'fact thai the fares were too high. The trouble was that the service was an isolated one and the fares were insufficient to warrant its continuance. Why did not buses run in competition with the trams? Because they would only take some of the revenue of the trains and the fares would not be enough to make them pay. If the trams were dispensed with, the service would' lie extended. But proprietors were prepared to come to Gisbome and run services at fares which were as low as those charged by the trams If local enterprise could provide the necessary service, it would be given the contract.. lie was entirely in favor of local enterprise, but they wanted to get all the information they could. Those ratepayers who were at present using the trams had to remember that the whole of the 'community was paying for their service. It therefore behoved them to be generous and help their neighbors to have I a service as well as themselves. TUey did-not want others to pay for their reI (juirements. With the bus service they would have a better time table, no increase in fares and a better service. Bjx cutting out an unremnnerative .service they would conserve their money I for other branches of municipal enterprise. (Applause.)

Cr. Todd : You have now heard several speakers who are. in favor of scrapping the trams. Perhaps Cr. Bickforil, whom I notice is present, will give us a few arguments for the other side. Cr. Bickford : I'd like to hear something first.

Cr. Maude: 1 think he has been asleep. (Laughter.) Mr. J. Blair said that the tramway committee had had to look at the matter from two angles. The first was tint they were serving a considerable number of the ratepayers, and the second was the business aspect. Mr. Clarke, of Wellington, had made a report showing that, there was a heavy annual loss. This report was confivme:l bv Messrs. W. IT. Irvine and 0. A. Smith, two local accountants. Ralepavers bad to pay several thousand pounds a. year for the trams. That. would be all right provided there was no other service available'. Information was now in the hands of the council to show that that service was available. There was no doubt that a. satisfactory bus service could be arranged. " A VERY SERIOUS LOSS." Cr. L, T. Burnard .said be was sorry that be had 1 not bad the opportunity of hearing what the opposition bad to say against- the scrapping of the trams. lie would like to make it clear that there were two independent reasons for the scrapping of the trains. The first was the very serious loss that had been experienced aaid the possibility of still further losses. There was a loss of £6COO a year at the very least. In order to continue trams it would be necessary to re-lay the Gladstone road bracks. The necessity arose for two reasons. It was falling to pieces, and I bey had to re-lay the road 1 and take up the. rails. The re-laying of the track would cost £25.000, 'which would add a further loss of £3OOO a year. That would bring the loss up to' £9OOO a

year, and they had still to remember thai new trams would be necessary, and would have to be paid for. They were trying to save money to the ratepayers in connection with the. trams, and they hoped to save money in other directions. It did not matter for the moment whether buse.s were satisfactory or not—the loss of £6OOO a year alone would justify the scrapping of the system. The presence of the trams prevented a proper service becaase the distance that it ran was not great enough, and the service was not .sufficiently convenient. (Hear, hear.) Mr. 11. R. Hill : It has never been given a chance.

Mr, Burnard : If there has ever been irttered a ridiculous statement in this room, thai is it. Year after yeir councillors were elected and did nothing but maintain the present service, [f thatis the best they can do, I say, give us a chance, (Applause.) 'BUSES BEAT TRAMS. Continuing, Mr. Burnard said that everywhere in New Zealand if was found that 'buses were replacing trams. A voice: No fear. What about Auckland?

Mr. Burnard said that Christchiireh had a good tramway system, not a service (hat was alone in the world. Christchurch found that 'buses were hitting the trams, and they put on municipal 'buses to try and beat the private 'buses. The position was exactly" (lie same in Auckland. 'Buses left at the same time as the trams and landed at their destinations earlier. The Corporation had bought 'busefs to run them off, and because it was running against their own trams they were losing money. The Auckland Corporation were satisfied to lose on their 'buses ll they could maintain monopoly of the transport service, The present tram system was in such a position that they could not, extend. The public would not vote more money to extend the trams. A voice: Oh, yes, we will. Mr. Burnard: Is there any commonsense left in the town? A lady: Is there any left.on the council. (Laughter.) Mr. Burnard said that the trams were blocking the institution of a butter service. Speaking for most of the council he could say that they would insist on fair treatment being given to those who had maintained 'bus services in Gisbome. (Applause:.) So far nothing definite had been done, and all the council wanted was to get more information. It was the duty of all citizens to con serve the wealth of the community, rind it was surely their duty to save any loss which was apparent. (Applause.) A ratepayer asked whether the councillors would pledge themselves that no subsidy would be given to a 'bus service, | Mr, Burnard said that they would give that pledge unhesitatingly. Mr. Paltridge : If the trams are serapi ped, I suppose there will be a. reduction in the rates?

Mr. Todd: No, but if they aren't scrapped there will be an increase of about jjd in the rates. (Groans from ratepayers).

Mr. H. E. Hill: Why did you not abide by a promise to respect a previous engineer's report? Mr. Todd : When a report is so obviously wrong a school b«v would go

against it. Mr Steele: What about the harbor. (Laughter.) TYPE OF SERVICE. Mr. Colley asked whether it was the council's intention to give one 'bus proprietor the sole right to run the service. Any company would run a cheap service for 12 months, but what was to follow. Mr. Burnard said that the Council would not have the opportunity of dealing with it until the ratepayers decided to scrap the trams. A neV Act bad rdcenly been passed, which nave power to local bodies to tyrant licenses to 'bus proprietors and discriminating to whom the licenses should be granted. The duly was on (he council to determine how many licenses were necessary in Gisbome, and of course that was a. point that had not- so far been raised. Personally, he was in favor of granting sufficient licenses to carry the traffic, and not to confine it to one licensn. Moreover, he was vei'v strongly in favor of including in (he licensees those 'bus proprietors in Gisborne who were running satisfactory services.

Mr. Colley said the\- bad beard a lot about the losses, but hud he council found out how those occurred? Was i! impossible to make radical changes that would effect savings? Mr. Todd could not say what a 'bus service would cost thorn. Thvy had a guarantee for only 12 months. Mr. Todd said that for seven years the council had been trying to find out how (he losses occurred, and they could not do it. Mr. C. E. Bickford asked what bal-ance-sheet the figures that hail been quoted that evening came from? Could they be proved?

I Mr. Todd then road out a list of items totalling close on £6OOO. Mr. Bickford : I've seen half a dozen reports and they all differ. live got a few facts, too. i Mr. Todd: We asked you some time ago to make a speech if you wanted to. Mr. Burnard said that Mr. Bickford had asked a reasonable question. The figures quoted were vouched for by Mr. Clarke, one of the most eminent auditors in Now Zealand, and supported by Messrs W. H. Irvine and C. A. Smith; 'also Mr. H. E. Maude. On the other side they had Cr. Bickford.

Cr. Bickford : ' That's typical of Cr. Burnard. The figures are so grossly exaggerated that they need contradiction. The Mayor is going to speak on Monday evening7"and both sides will lie heard there. The councillors who have spoken have said they are looking after the ratepayers' interests. They would not b« gaine lo> go over to the Kaiti ratepayers and tjpll them that. (Laughter.) Cr. Todd said be would like to ask Cr. Bickford whether he was in favor of 'buses or trams.

Cr. Bickford said that he had an open mind on the matter. _lf somo of the councillors had had their way the rate payers would never have been consulted. I A voice (to Cr. Todd): Wo'll scrap I vou, too. (Laughter.) I Cr. Maude said that be went on to the council with an open mind about .the trams, but, his investigations bad shown that they were hopeless. Mr. I'eryer: What happens if wei don't Carry a loan to repair (he Ham track in Gladstone road.

I Cr. Todd : The trams would gradually scrap themselves. A vote of thanks to the chairman and councillors closed the meeting.