SUPREME COURT.

Otago Witness, Issue 1951, 11 April 1889, Page 14

SUPREME COURT.

CIVIL SITTINGS. Wednesday, April 3. , (Before his Honor Mr Justice Williams.) WINMILLV. GALLIE AND OTHERS. A suit to test the validity of the will of the late John Gallic. Mr J. F. M. Fraser for the plaintiff, and Mr F. R. Chapman for the defendants. The hearing of this case was resumed at 10 a.m. John Stewart Barr deposed that he came to Dunedin in August 1856, and was at present a butcher, residing in Roslyn. He knew the late John Gallic, who in the early days did the work of shoeing witness' horses. Since that time witness had kept up an acquaintance with Gallic. He always noticed that Gallic's speech was thick, and that it was especially so at the end; but witness always perfectly understood him. All the time witness knew him Gallic was quite rational in his conversation, and appeared to have a good memory. About a fortnight after Gallic came out of the asylum he told witness he had been in the asylum, and said he was glad his wife had taken him out. Cross-examined by Mr Fraser : Gallic was a very close man, and took uncommonly good care of his money. Even in his latter days he was fond of money, and used to rattle it in his • pocket. Gallic had leisure time on his hands, but did not stand for councillor; there were better men in the field. Witness knew that Gallic had a stroke which gave him a good shake. He heard of this stroke from different people, but knew nothing of it of his own knowledge. After the stroke Gallic did not do any work. He had never known boys to tease Gallic, and would not have allowed them to do so while he was present. Catherine Lochhead (the wife of R. Lochhead) deposed that she had known the Gallic family from her childhood. She could remember Mr Gallic at the time of the Duke of Edinburgh races at Silverstream. Mr Gallic went to the races and stayed at witness' father's place that night. She understood Mr Gallic and his son walked out over Silverstream hill, a distance of 12 or 13 miles. After this witness was at Mr Gallic's house almost every year during Mr Gallic's life, and had stayed a month there at one time, and at other times a week. She was at Gallic's in May 1878 when Mrs Davys was married. Mr Gallic used to talk to witness about different things, and she could distinctly remember him praising her for her baking, when she was baking scones, and telling his daughters that they should learn to bake too. Gallic often spoke to his wife and daughters. At first witness had some difficulty in understanding him. Gallic was present at Mrs Davys' wedding, and appeared to take an interest in what was going on. Mrs Gallic offered her husband a glass of wine, and he said he would rather have some " hard stuff," meaning ■whisky. The girls treated their father with the greatest respect, and Mrs Gallic treated him very kindly, and he seemed to be very fond of and considerate to her. Witness had never noticed anything striking or peculiar in Mr Gallic's manner of eating. From first to last she had ho reason to suppose that Mr Gallic was 6illy or wanting in intelligence or out of his mind in any respect. Robert Clifford and John Otto were the next witnesses examined, the last named deposing that Gallic was a man who looked silly, but was not ; and his talk was sensible. Gallic's stooping and talk made him seem peculiar. Witness was deceived by these appearances at first, but when he got to know him he knew that Gallic was right enough. Cross-examined : Witness had not talked this matter over with Mr Cable. When Gallic reminded witness that he owed him (witness) sixpence it surprised him that he remembered it. The evidence of Mr Justice Denniston was then read, and contained the following statements :— " My recollections of the circumstances under which the deed was attested are very slight from lapse of time. Remember going down in a cab to Mr Gallic's house, and remember the fact of an old man being there, taking his signature there and attesting it. That is all I recollect. That was the first occasion when I saw Gallic in connection with the lease, and do not remember seeing him before. Cannot recollect details of the transaction, but am satisfied from the circumstances of the transaction and my habits of conducting such business that I should not have taken and attested his signature to such a deed unless I had first satisfied myself that he did understand it and knew what he was signing." The evidence of Mr W. D. Stewart regarding the negotiations for and execution of Watson's lease was also read. Thomas A. King, late medical superindeat of Seacliff Lunatic Asylum and now of Auckland, stated that he had 500 patients under him at Seacliff. There were among them patients who were able to transact business. When a man was put in an asylum not classified under the heading " demented " he would understand that there was a certain amount of stupidity about the patient. Many put in under that class conducted their business affairs after leaving. If he had a medical certificate of death put before him stating the causes, " Softening of the brain, 16 years ; general paralysis, two years," he would feel very curious about the general paralysis, and would like to know if general paralysis of the insane was meant. General paralysis was a disease more general' in the prime of life, and was entirely distinct from paralytic insanity. Witness had heard Mr Otto's evidence, and would gather from it that Gallic was a man of the ordinary amount of intellect belonging to people of his age, and of the position that he occupied. Witness had also heard Mrs Lochhead's evidence, and his inference from it was that he could not, from her description of Gallic, discover any sign of unsoundness of mind on his part. There was a certain amonnt of elasticity about the term " softening of the brain." The disease was not necessarily progressive. Softening of the brain was usually associated with gome mental affection, but sometimes was not so associated. Witness had known of cases where people suffering from softening of the brain ware quite able to carry on their ordinary business. . The witness was cross-examined by Mr Fraser, after which Mr Chapman intimated that his case had now closed. Mr Fraser said that he would merely give a sketch of the live that he would adopt. His answer to the defendant's case was simply a contradiction of the most absolute possible nature. He intended to trace and show the family life of the Gallic family from 1849, and he would prove absolutely that Gallic was incapable of carrying on business ; and that in reference to the leasing of the High street property a tis3ue of falsehoods had been told by the witnesses for, the other side. The first witness he would call! was Lydia Ludford, who would take'the matter up to 1870, and when her evidence was finished he would give evidence in support of her statements. - -• Lydia Ludford, wife of John Ludford, stated that she was the eldest surviving daughter of the late John Gallic. Her first recollections of jjer home life dated from when the family lived

in Upper High street, jast above the Arcade She was then about seven years old. She remembered her father at that time as being of aj very fierce temper; he was a very stern man. ; He was, however, kind to the children. He wasi entire master in the house ; her mother waa as much afraid of him as the children were. He used then to be a temperate man. He used to read a great deal then— the newspapers and horse-doctors' works.'- He used to read and smoke in bed a great deal. He was then a tall, upright, and strong man. Witness did not notice in those days anything at all peculiar in, his speech, excepting when he got excited, and then he used to stammer. He used to get angry with witness' mother, and stammered then. When they lived in Upper High street her father took a great interest in politics, and took a great dislike to Dr Burns on some political grounds, and would not go to his church, but went occasionally to Dr Stuart's. Witness remembered a horse kicking her father on the leg. Her father was then seriously injured, lay in bed for some time; and witness believed he was attended by Dr Nelson. When laid up in upper High street her father read more than ever, and her mother complained of this, saying the doctor said he was ruining himself by over study. Witness did, not remember the flitting to lower High street, but remembered living there. At this place her father seemed quite different, did not attend to his work as formerly, and witness believed that his mind then began' to fail. In lower High street her father took to drinking ; before that he had been temperate. Her father was not liberal with his money. She remembered his taking a large conversation lolly home and dividing it among four of them. He never gave Mrs Gallic money, and witness had heard her mother say that if she wanted a reel of cotton she had to go to j her father for it. Witness remembered that her father kept bis money, in a box, that he left it unlocked on one] occasion, and her mother helped herself to some of the ' money and was afraid her husband would find it out. Witness remembered that when her sister Maggie was a fortnight old they all had to leave home one night at midnight, because her father was in a terribly excited state. He was walking up and down with one boot on and the other [off, muttering to himself. Witness remembered when her father had the stroke. She thought it must have been sudden. She remembered one morning coming down and finding her mother in a dreadful state. Her mother then said her father could not speak. Witness went up to him and spoke to him, but he took no notice. She could not say how long this continued, but should say about three months. Maggie was between two and three months old when this occurred, and witness was between nine and 10 years old. Her father was speechless for nearly the whole of the three months. During this time Dr Nelson attended her father, and paid more than one visit. Witness' mother was present with the doctor, and on one occasion witnes3 was herself present. Witness remembered that on one occasion her mother was crying and asking the doctor questions. The doctor replied, "Mrs Gallic, your husband will never be the same man again." The doctor was at the same time attending witness for palpitation of the heart. Her father's recovery was very gradual, and when he recovered he was very weak, He could walk then, but not as he walked before, and it was much more difficult to understand him ; he stuttered and stammered more. After the paralytic stroke he never did any work. Her mother used to describe the stroke as a paralytic stroke in his speech. Witness recollected her father handing the keys of the money box over to her mother, but did not know whether this was before the stroke or afterwards. After the stroke her father appeared to her to have something the matter with him, and she asked her mother about him. Her mother replied, "Don't ask me, lassie; you'll know soon enough." She remembered her father buying an overcoat. It was a heavy coat, and he said to her mother, " I shall never wear this coat out, mother. I shall be in the grave or the asylum before it's worn out." Witness had also heard her mother narrate this circumstance once, and she thought more than once. Either shortly, before the stroke or after, her mother came, in to the house one day wringing her hands, and said, " Your father has sold the house over our heads for £50." He had either let it for £50 a year or sold it for that sum to a publican named Lang. Mr J. H. Harris called at the house about it. Witness remembered the flood. This was, she believed, before the stroke. The flood came into the lower storey of the house. Her father was there sitting at the table eating his dinner, and the water was up to his knees. Her mother was begging him to got up and to go upstairs. He refused to go, saying he would not go till he had finished his dinner. Her mother asked her to go down and coax him, and she did so. When he had finished his dinner he did so, but not before. At this time he was not the same as he was when they' were living in Upper High street. When the smithy was sold, her father, who' was then very feeble, walked towards it, and returned striking his hands together, and saying, "The' smithy's gone, the smithy's gone." He kept this up, walking up and down like a madman. Witness knew George Hartley Walker. She saw him first in the City Butchery, and he used to throw nuts and lollies to her. He was then in bed with a broken leg, and afterwards hobbled up and down the platform on crutches. He used come into the house and sit there in the evening, before her father recovered his speech. He came every evening. Witness' mother used to go to Walker's cottage. When they arrived at Leith street Walker was there. At first he worked about the house. The children called him •' George." So far as she could remember Walker lived with them until Mrs Walker arrived, and he took the stored That was Walker's first departure. Witness' father in those days used to chop the wood, and did a little digging. It was only amusement for him ; it had to be gone over again. After they went to Leith street her father slept in one of the back rooms, and witness and two of her sisters slept in the same room. At this time he did not sleep in the same room as her mother. After a little time Walker put up two beds upstairs, and the girls went there, but witness' father continued to sleep in the back room where the girls had previously slept ; and slept there until Walker's departure to his store. Witness said it was entirely false to say her father was than a capable man, the head of the household ; her father was simply a nonentity. Walker was the head of the house in those days. If they wanted to go up town they would go to their mother, and if she was not there of course they would to Walker. It was ridiculous to ask if they would go to their father. To her knowledge, with the exception of a bad penny, her father never had any money in his pocket, excepting on Saturday nights, when 6d was given him to get a shave. Witness usually went with her father when he went to get shaved. She was sent with him' by her mother to wait outside for him, and then bring him home. Witness mostly went him to church, and was with him in the early Leith street days more than any other member of the family. Her mother used to make her father tidy to go to church, and would wash his face, comb his hair, pat his collar and coat on, and

| even his hat sometimes. Th&she" did.. every I time he went out. On one occasion it had been ,j ' raining. Her father said; ", follow the leader, and; ,' you^ be ail right,'' and then he. walked j through the deepest of ; the water, over his,, boot tops, and she followed him. , Her father did not converse. She could not follow, him, and did not think she had ,the 'patience. r Slie could, easily understand the words' he. uttered; .was sense ill some remarks he made, bathe could not carry on a connected conversation; he would wander from one subject to another. He did not use to advise his children un -the way mentioned in the evidence. When asked where he was going he would say, X After my. nose to see if I can catch it." This she thoughtparticularly smart, and he used to chuckle and seem quite pleased with himself. A,t church her father used to stand up ab the wrong, time. He.was easily managed, and would.do anything ihey asked him. He could not find' the' places in the' Bible in church. In the early days jii Ileith street witness? mother slept in a room 'close to ' the one io which witness, her sisters, and father slept, and Walker's bed was made up on the sofa in the parlour. Walker did not sleep regularly in his bed, because in the mornings sometimes witness used to find it as she had made it np. On those occasions Walker was not absent .from i the house, but would . be, at i , breakfast in the ordinary way. , At'thatntnne the children would go to bed at about 8.30, and their .father would go to bed ' sometimes before and, sometimes after the children. Witness could recall an occasion when she heard her mother talking to someone in her bedroom, the next room. She, was talking to Walker, for witness heard his voice. This happened more than once, and witness' father was at the time sleeping on the stretcher in the same room as witness. - Walker used to drink a good deal, and would get drunk sometimes, but only occasionally. Walker used to drink a good deal of brandy. , , It was kept in the house for him, and many a time witness had had to go for Walker's , brandy. In the early days Walker would assist in the housework. He swept the floor, and would interfere with the cooking, doing a good deal of it. He often prepared breakfast for witness' mother. Her mother nearly always got' her breakfast in bed, and Walker .would take it to her sometimes. . Witness first learned that Walker was' a married man with a family nearly two years after they went to Leith street. At one time witness? ■ mother sent a box of clothing to Mrs Walker at Ballarat. A newdress that had been bought for witness was taken from her and sent in this box for Mrs Walker's little daughter. Her mother promised to buy another dress, but never fulfilled the promise. Some new hair nuts, an underskirt that had not been worn, one belonging to her sister that had been worn, and other things were sent in the box, which witness' mother assisted to pack. Witness saw her dress again ; it was then worn by Mrs Walker. One night, as they were sitting down to tea, they heard a knock at the door, and witness' mother sent her to answer it. An expressman was there, and asked if the Gallics lived there. Witness replied that they did, and the expressman lifted someone out, and a woman and two children pushed past her ' and went into the room where they were all > sitting. Walker and witness' mother rose up ' and became as pale as death. No one spoke for two minutes. Mrs Walker sat on the sofa, and said, " Here we are." The children and their father were all sent out of the room by Mrs Gallic. Witness' father laid his hand on her shoulder ' and said, " Who's that ?" and she said, " I don't ' know," There were high words used in the i room they had been turned out of, and these ' continued for some time. , Mr, and Mrs Walker i sjept in witness' bed* that night, and continued 1 to live in the house for spine weeks. Witness ; had heard Walker say to her mother that the 1 climate would soon kill Mrs Walker ; she would not stay long. The reply witness did not re- 1 member. Witness' mother set Walker up in a ] store in Albany street, and they lived there for i some months. Mrs Walker was very delicate. ' i Witness was on friendly, terms . with the ,i Walkers after they went to the store, and went ' there sometimes. 7 All the children went to the i store wb.ec Henry was born, and stayed there i for a day or two. On one ocoasion witness went 1 to! the store with her mother. This was after ' Mrs Walker left. The store consisted of a shop, 1 sipting room, and bedroom, It was late in the i afternoon, towards the evening, when they went. 1 Some years after they went to Leith street her I mother used to take more than was good for her, i and on this day witness thought she had taken 1 more than she should,, as she could not walk i very well. Walker was.in the store, and Walker c and witness' mother left the store, going into 1 the sitting room, while witness was left in the 1 shop. While she was there a man came in t and asked for a bottle of brandy. Witness v could not reach the brandy, and went to look L for Walker. She went to the sitting room, but r could not find him there. \ Mr Eraser : Where did you .go then ? t ' Witness: Into the bedroom. t Who was there ?r-Mr Walker. a And anybody else P^My mother. \ At this stage the witness, who had given the 1 last few answers in, a spasmodic manner and t with much hesitation, broke down and suddenly 1 left the box and the court. ' '„\„ \ r , Mr Fraser suggested that as it was just 5 t o'clock it would be better not to try to resume \ the examination at once, but that the adjourn- c ment .should take place. r His Honor concurred, and the court was t adjourned until 10.30 next morning. t I Thubsdat, April 4.' * The hearing of this case was resumed at 10.30 \ a.m., and the examination in chief of Lydia Lud- v ford was continued. v Mr Fraser : You remember, Mrs Ludford, the c point at which I concluded my examination last t night? f Witness: Yes. fc Mr Fraser : Now, lam not going to partiou- 1 larise further than this : I shall ask you is what s you saw imprinted upon your memory at the vi present time ?, , d Witness: Yes. , „ n Mr Fraser: Was, your mother then aware A that you were an eye-witness of what you did n see? h Witness: Yes. - 8 ; Mr Fraser *. And you subsequently returned, o I presume, from the store to the house ?, v Witness : Yes. w Examination continued : Witness remembered \ Walker getting into financial difficulties. The I bailiffs came to her mother's house after him. c The bailiffs did not get their man. Witness and 7 her sister, instructed by, their mother, told the £ bailiffs that Walker was not in. He was a.t. the tl time in witness' room. He was, a soft man, and- <n when in witness.room was crying. Walker had. f< property intrants ; the, smaller of the two was g called the Lydia Rose. It used to sometimes a lie op the beach behind the house. f, . Mr Fraser said that he would put in Walker's, h insolvency papers to fix the date when he was c in difficulties. ■ ' ' . • t Mr Chapman would rather that witness fixed c the date. . a Witness said it was when her brother Henry fi was about a year old. It was some months F after his wife went away. Witness carried n letters about his insolvency to Mr Ward, the * n

solicitor. At that time there were boxes of tea, candles, and bags of s,ugar ia witness' room. i ! She supposed they were brought by Walker; } -from his store. Bhß remembered him once bringing a box of tea under his arm. When he went oat of business he lived with his nephew, Mr., William Henry .Walker, stationer. He stopped there a few ' weeks. ,1 That was near Christmas,- Me then,. went up country; witness could not say exactly where. So {far as she remembered he .was^a few months up country, and then returned to witness' mothers house in Lefth : street. Witness remembered her father being taken to the asylum ; she knew of it the day he was taken. She went to the asylum only once, with her brother Johnny. Johnny^ was exactly two years- younger thaniher. She distinctly remembered the visit. They went to the door of the Asylum, and witness rang the bell. Mrs Hume came- to the door and scolded witness foe ringing the bell so loudly. She; -said witness had y alarmed the patients; they .thought the pjaoe was : on fire. Mrs Hume asked, thena, who, they .wanted.. -They replied they wanted , their father^ Mrs Hume brought him to them.. .Witness did not remember Johnny speaking. She'ga^eiher father some tobacco, which he put into his pocket. ' He then took hold of witness' brother's jhand and her own and said he wanted to go home. Mrs Hume said, "But, Mr Gallic, you* promised to dance with me on Tuesday night." He replied, <". .Never mind, that. > i lt is time to go home." Mrs Hume got him away after a great deal of coaxing. Walker was at < that time, at witness' home. Witness .remembered her father coming' home, but could not, remember who brought him. She remembered hearing of Mrs Walker's death. One morning Mrs Gallic, Annie,, and | witness were sitting in the room, when Walker came in with a mourning band round .his hat. He was trembling, and his eyes were very red. He pulled a letter out of his pocket and read out of it the announcement of his wife's death. Mrs Gallic laughed at him and chaffed him about crying for his wife. Annie remonstrated with her mother, and her mother ordered Annie to .leave • the room. - Witness , stayed', a, few minutes , longer, - Mrs Gallic still continued -laughing. Witness looked angrily at her, and then followed her sifter. - Annie was very fond of Mrs Walker, and the announcement of her death grieved Annie very much. Witness was at home when' her ..sister Milly was born. She was born in Albany strrat. Mrs Gallic had taken a little cottage there. The house in Leith. street was originally a double house. It was altered by a room being added to it. After the alteration.Mr Gallic slept in the room, opposite the kitchen ; that was until witness left home. Sometimes Mrs Gallic made his bed ; sometimes witness. As a rule he was, witness thought, a sound sleeper. One night witness heard a noise in her father's room— a noise as though a piece of furniture had been thrown down: She went downstairs to see, and on going into her father's room found him fast asleep. There were voices in her mother's room. They were the voices lof Walker and her mother. That was; between 12 andl o'clock. ' She had heard Walker's voice in her mother's room on various occasions. After Walker came from the country he lived at Mrs Gallic's house for months. It must be understood that it was Walker's home , ,Mr Fraser : Yes, but it has been sworn that he went there only occasionally. - Witness, continuing, said tjbat Walker went to Nelson when her mother took John there. Witness heard of that from , her brother Henry after he returned with 1 his mother. Henry told witness and Annie that "Nanna" — that was 1 the name Henry and Milly called Walker— had gone to college with Johnny. It was two or three years before Annie's marriage that John went to college. Walker was away for only a few weeks, and then came back to Mrs Gallic's house. One day, while standing at the gate the postman handed her a letter addressed " Lydia Gailie, Hose Cottage, Leith street, Dauedin." There was no " Mrs " before the " Lydia " It -was returned from the Dead Letter Office. Witness opened the letter, and some verses in witness' own handwriting dropped out. Witness had written them a few weeks before at her mother's request. The letter commenced "My dearest George." It was au affectionate letter. Witness gave the letter to her mother, saying it was not for her (witness). Mrs Gallic boxed her ears. Witness' sister Annie was tho best of the lot of them. ,She worshipped, witb the Christian Brethren, under the guidance of Mr Brunton. Annie got on very badly with her mother,' and her life at home was not a happy one. Mrs Gallic ruled her household with a firm hand, and often quarrelled with Annie, who heartily disliked Walker. When Milly was a baby, witness, was bathing Mr Walker's head with vinegar and water in the parlour, when Annie came in and ordered her to go out of the room. Witness.said she would not, and Annie went away, and witness heard her complaining to her mother. After this Annie and her mother come Jnto ,the room.. Her mother asked Walker a question in an undertone. Witness' sister, accused Walker ( of taking liberties with her, and said she was afraid for the rest of her sisters. Mrs Gallic refused to be- , lieve Annie, and - Annie and- witness left the room. After some time they- went again into the parlour, which was empty. Witness' sister went to the cheffonier,got a bottle of laudanum, emptied it into a wineglass and drained it. Witness went and told her mother that Annie had taken the bottle labelled poison, and had drunk the contents. . .She begged her ,to come to Annie's assistance, and her mother said, " Let her die ', I have not done it." Thia was the ab> solute fact ; she was not likely to forget ,it. Witness went to Walker and told him, and he went very white and trembled. Walker and witness went into the parlour^ and Annie was crouching down by the fireplace. -Walker called the mother, and she would not come. She refused to come. , After some time Walker got her to come, and they took- Annie upstairs. Annie was falling off to sleep, and Walker was shaking her. They dragged ,Annie upstairs, walked her up and down the room, and forced her drink mustard and water. It appeared to witness thai;- this treatment continued for hours. After it Annie' was very weak, and was in bed most of the next day. Witness had never seen her sister Annie at any time give- Walker the slightest encouragement. After this Annie got on worse than ever with her mother, and her life was not happy. Witness' impression and belief was that her mother was, jealous of Annie. Witness was at service at Mr Ward's and at Mr B. C. Haggitt's and at various other places ; she commenced 'to go to service when she was 14. The first church witness worshipped at was the Baptist Church, and she left, that and went to the Wesleyan Church, of which she was still a member.,. The .married man who had been referred to in her mother's evidence was a Mr Sargeaqt.. .This man introduced himself to her as a widower, and used to walk behind her and follow her home, and , afterwards he walked home.witlj, her. from .church, and from week evening meetings. Witness!' mother never spoke to her about this. After one of the Wednesday evening services the Rev. Mr Bull insisted upon accompanying her home, and subsequently a friend told her that she had been delegated by the Rev. Mr Fitchett and others to tell her that the man who walked home with her was a married map. After this the acquaintance was of course

stopped, and she refused-to speak to him again. This was the true account of the married;, man episode, and could be verified. A week after this witness' mother said that ehe had,metothe jßev. Mr Fitchettand thai; he had told her about it. Witness explained, what had taken place, and her mother was quite satisfied. There ; was not the faintest shadow of truth . in her mother's statement that she (witness) had been fonnd sitting in her nightdress on the sofa with- Lad* ford, , The story ,was a pure, fabrication. ; ; There was no intimacy, at all, between herself, and Ludford during the period they lived in.-, the house together after, Annie's, death, c Witness had only left her home once in consequence of rows with her mother, and that was when she left. On one occasion, when witness returned from a visic to Waikpuaiti, she; found! that Walker had taken up his residence again at their house. She was surprised at this, because she had ■ oyerheard Anne ask her mother to send him away, and her, mother had promised to do so. " Her mother in the meantime professed, to be converted,^ and had joined the Baptist Church. Witness said to . her mother, "Oh mother, why have you got Walker back again ? " and her mother said, " You go out of the room and' mind yonr own business." , During that day witness saw a Mrs Simons, and had a confidential conversation with her, The next day Walker and Mrs Gallic came into the room as witness was preparing dinner. Walker went outside, and witness very foolishly brought up the 'question of Walker's presence, and said, she would leave home. She said she had done this foolishly, because her mother was not in a fit state to discuss the matter. Her mother dared. her to take a situation. At this time Walker oabje in and leaned against the mantelpieoe. Witness' 1 mother was very angry, and witness also lost, her temper. .Her father came in and sat down in his accustomed place, with his arms } folded. Witness- repeated the scene she had witnessed in the store, and her mother threw the wineglass on the floor and went into hysterics. Witness had stamped her foot, being very-, angry, and her father.. went up to her, patted her on the shoulder, and said, "Hush,Liddy; hush." While her mother was in hysterics, Johnny came in ans sat down>and ' took his dinner. After this witness left her home, and had -never returned.to.it:-, Her mother took witness. wearing apparel away and kept it. When she was going away, "VJTalker.came behind her and said, " Whatever you do, don't say a word against your mother ",;, and she replied that she did not intend to. When she got to the outside'gate her father was leaning on it, and said, " Where are you going, Liddy ?" , She . said, " I don't know, father " ; and he said, " Don't be long." He opened the gate and ,s.aid again, " Where, are you going, Liddy?," She said, "Up town " ; and he repeated, " Don't be long." As she got to the end of the street she turned round and looked, and that was the last time she ever saw her father. He father was very fond of her, and she believed it .was true that her departure affected her father more than her sister's death did. Witness went to Calyert's for a few days, and then to Paget's at Waikouaiti, where she stopped till she was married. While witness was with the Simons her mother called about 8 o'clock one night to see her to say farewell. Her mother said, " Won't you let me say farewell to my daughter ? " and hearing this witness wanted to see her, but Mr Simon called her (witness) a fool, pushed her from the door, and threatened to, send for .the police if Mrs Gallic did not go away. Mrs Gallic wjent round the house,. Just after this witness ldoked through the window and. saw her leaning against the side of the house. Mrs Simon said, " Do you see that ?" and witness on lookingsaw the blade of a carving knife which her mother carried, and partly concealed. There was not the slightest doubt about this ; MrsSimon called attention to it.' ■ Mrs Simon and witness eat up in the kitchen all night, and they believed they heard the windows tried. When she looked through the window and saw her mother, that was the last time she saw her until they met in 1 the court some 10 days since. Witness then gave evidence of her marriage with Ludford. Speaking of the time the family were living at Leifch street, witness had never known "her father read the Star of an evening. He used to open it and fold his ,arms and look across it, gazing into vacancy. She did not believe that he read the leading article and discussed it afterward*. He would now and then say, " Pretty good, pretty good," on hearing which they used to smile. She never saw him take a book in his hand so far as .she could remember. She did not believe her father could have written a sentence to save his life from the time he took the stroke. He did not take any interest in the children's lessons, nor did he scold the children for talking back to their mother, or strike or correct them for faults. . The mother took very little notice of him ; but they occasionally quarrelled, and witness had more than once seen her 1 mother strike her father with her hand.' Mr Gallic was never fond of Walker. He chopped the wood into logs, but could not cut it small.- -He used to wear a canvas belt that Mrs Gallic, Annie, and witness had stuffed with newspapers. He ' believed the stnffiog was £50 in notes, and used to take great care of the belt, putting it under bis, pillow' at night. The family had many a laugh over the belt. Witness had never known of anyone coming to Leith street to do business with him, nor did she know that he ever discussed business. jShe did not believe he was capable.of talking about business. <■ He was not allowed to go freely out of the grounds; Sometimes he was allowed to go to the end of the sfcraet.but mother always sent one of the family to watch him and 'bring him baok. On one occasion he got lost, and on coming In after tea and being asked where he had been he said in his stammering way that he had nailed little Tom Tait to the fence and painted him. Afe this there was a scream of laughter. Eventually he gave them to understand that he had been helping Tait to nail his fence. Strangers could not understand her father ; someone had to explain what he meant. At the table he did not carve ; and in eating he used to stuff the food! into his mouth in great gulps in a way that would disgust a stranger. He ate ravenously, and mostly used his fingers to convey the meat to his mouth. He was allowed sixpennyworth of tobacco per week, and used to cut it up in Buch large chunks that it would not light. Mr Fraser : Sixpenny worth of tobacco and a shave every week— that was his allowance out of £500 a year. Mr Chapman: Is that the answer? Mr Fraser : No, it is not the answer ; it is my comment. Examination continued : Her father used to» cut up the tobacco in such large chunks that? his pipe would not draw, and he used a fearful quantity of matches and paper to get a light. la walking he used to drag his feet after him. Ife was soon after they went to Leith street that witness heard first of a will. She heard her mother and father and Walker disputing, ancl heard the word "will" mentioned again and? again. Walker and Mrs Gallic were abusing: Gallic. Witness went into the room, bat waff turned out. Witness next heard about a will when Mr J. H. Harris came to the honse. M» Gallic sent for him, witness understood, to .draw a will. Walker and witness' mother were con- ' versant about it before Mr Harris came, and mother remarked that if she did not get a will made Johnnie oonld claim everything, Wltaeag

was sent for writing materials, and saw Mr Harris standing by the table. As well as she could remember this was after her father had been in the asylum. Her father was sitting on the sofa, and was repeating again and again, M Fish of one and flesh of another." Witness laughed, and her mother sent her out of the room. After Mr Harris left; witness' mother said, " Well, you girls will be all right ; you will each have £100 when you are married." After this witness heard nothing about wills. She never heard her father say he should leave everything to her mother. Witness bad often heard her mother talk to visitors about her father. She used to tell visitors what ' a handful father was, and witness had often heard her remark that she was worse than' widowed, and her children were worse than fatherless. Witness knew of the letter that was gent by Mr Travers to her mother. The letter was not written with her wish, and she was opposed to it, but consented to its being sent. The letter was sent a day or two before she saw her brother Johnnie. One of the first questidns' she asked her brother was if her father had recovered or not — meaning, as he must have understood, if he had recovered his senses before he died. She had heard of her father's death but a fortnight before, though he had been dead seven years. In reply to the question as to whether her father had recovered or not, her brother said, " No, he grew weaker and weaker until he died." Witness did not mention Travers' letter to her brother. The statement by her mother that she (witness) used to go away for weeks together without her mother knowing where she was, was entirely false. Her sister Annie went away on more than one occasion after interviews with her mother Since they went to Leith'street her father had never gone to a place of amusement, but her mother had often gone, and with Walker. Witness had never raised her hand against her mother in her life, and her mother would have made short work of her if she had done so. Her mother used to correct them with a strap that was cut into strips at the end, and used her slipper or anything else she could get hold of occasionally. Cassie was not the girl that had been described. As witness remembered her, she was a warm-hearted, good-natured, kind girl, and witness cared more for her than for any ©f the others. Cassie was not a quarrelsome girl. Lizzie was the worst of the family ; she was very sour-tempered. Cross-examined by Mr Chapman: Witness had never told anyone that Mrs Gallic was not her mother. She came to the conclusion that her mother was committing an offence with Mr Walker when she witnessed the scene describad in the store. She did not know then anything beyond the fact that something very wrong was being done. The first person she mentioned it to was her sister Annie ; that was months *af fcer it occurred. Witness first came to the conclusion that her mother was cruel and inhuman, when she refused to go to her daughter's assistance after Annie had taken poison. She did not regard her mother as a perfect demon. Mr Chapman : She was not a perfect demon, though she Would let your sister be poisoned ?— (Witness) I do not believe she would have done so. You do not consider her a perfect demon ?— No. She has some redeeming qualities. She is my mother. ' ' But some people's ' mothers are not all they : Should be ; what are' her redeeming qualities ?— I I do not know what they are. You do not think she intended to let your sister die?— No. Up to the time of her acquaintance with Walker, she was all a mother ought to be. Mr Walker was not a demon ? — He was the greatest wretch that ever trod God's earth. But he was the man who persuaded your mother to save your sister from dying of poison ?-— Yes ; and well he might. Well, ho was not the man to let her die poisoned ?— No ; he would not do it for his own neck's sake. Was your mother cruel ?~Mother was very cruel when she was roused and made angry. I have reason to remember that. It has been said that I was very disobedient, but the only thing I disobeyed her in was in refusing to go to the door and say she was out when she was at home. We used to throw texts of Scripture at each other about it. Mr Fraser : Let us have the texts. Witness: She said, "Children, obey your parents," and I said, " In the Lord, for this is right." She said it was literal, and I was disobeying Scripture ; and I said, " Fathers, provoke not your children to wrath " ; and she said, " If you were a boy I'd make a lawyer of you." Witness was cross-examined as to places in Which she had been in service, and also as to the visitors to her father's house, and also said that Walker was living at her father's house in Leith street from the time they went there, for nearly nine years, with the exception of occasional absences. During that time her father's house | was Walker's house. Her father used to scowl ; at Walker, and go up and down muttering, and her mother frequently took him by the shoulders and put him out of the house. Her father was a great admirer of Mr Macandrew, and used to say, " Fine man that, fine man that" ; but witness was sure that her father could not carry on a connected conversation. The first time that witness saw any indication of drink on her mother was the evening they went down to the store. Witness thought her father's mind was failing before he took the stroke. She could not understand that he ever went shopping while they were in Leith street. He was allowed sometimes to go by himself as far as Pelichet Bay jetty, but Mrs Gallic was always uneasy ontil he came back. When let out on these ! occasions he sometimes went in other directions, j His only walks to town ' were when he escaped from his liberty to go to Pelichet Bay. Witness being sent after him on one occasion, found him going up Stuart street in his shirt sleeves. He was perfectly helpless ; and as for his being able to transact business, it was dreadful to talk about, and witness had not patience to listen to it. He could not look after himself at all in the way of washing or dressing himself He had never called witness "Daffc Liddy" The description witness had given of her father's condition applied to the whole of the period , during which she was in Leith street. For that ! time her father was mentally and bodily the same man. The court adjourned at 5 p.m. until half-past 10 o'clock next morning. PaiDA.T, April 5. The hearing of this case was resumed at 10.30 a.m., and Lydia Ludford's cross-examination was continued. Witness, in answer to Mr Chapman, said she had heard that the result of what had been referred to as the married man incident was an JQquiry, and that Sergeant was excommunicated. That was what Mrs Walker had told witness. The canvas belt Mr Gallic wore was one that give strength to his back. All the family out Lizzie got on well with Cassie. Re-examined by Mr Fraser ; Witness left the Baptist Church because of reports going about concerning Walker and her mother, and she <witness) did not feel comfortable. After the utroke Mr Gallic's face was slightly drawn to on« flide, and there was a continual dribble. He WWftyfl »at with his mouth open.

Henry Miller, commission merchant, said he came to the colony at the end of 1861, and at one time occupied premises in High, street owned by the late John Gallic. About the end [ of 1870 the premises occupied by Chaplin and Hoy t were vacant, and witness went to Gillies and and Street about them. He made his arrangements with Gillies and Street. He was a monthly tenant. Subsequently witness bought out Montgomery's interest in a two years' lease of premises on the other side of the street. Mr Street called on him one day and said that Mrs Gallic was anxious to negotiate for a long lease of the premises at an advanced rent, and ultimately made an offer for a term of, 21 years. After several conversations with Gillies and Street, witness went down to the Gallic's. r Mr Street had said that if witness got a cheap lease he would have to lay out some money in,improvements. Every transaction in this matter was as clear on witness' mind as if it had happened last night. When he went to Gallic's house Mrs Gallic opened the door. Witness told her his business. She took him into the parlour, and they sat acd talked for a little about the rent of the premises. She wanted witness to make an offer. He offered her £150 for a 21 years' lease. There was some talk about valuation for improvements. Witness wanted to get valuation, but Mrs Gallic would not hear of it. After some considerable talk Mrs Gallic said she would not take less than £180. There was a young lad present; witness could not say who it was. Witness did not see Mr Gallic. They did not come to terms that day. During that first interview Mr Gallic's name was mentioned by witness ; he asked could he not see Mr Gallic. Mrs Gallic replied tbafc Mr Gallic was not fit to do any business. Witness asked had he been ill loug ; what was the matter with him. She said he had been ill some time— he was very feeble, and that his mind was gone, or, something to that effect. A day or two afterwards witness went back to Mrs Gallic. There was no one else present. She would not let the lease go for less than £180. Witness said he would give £180 if he would knock out the improvement clause. She said she would not knock that out, it being such a long leaseWitness asked her if the offer would stand good for two or three days until he returned from Christchurch. She agreed to that, and the interview terminated. On returning witness saw Gillies and Street, who told him they had been instructed not to take less than £200. Witness said he would not be humbugged that way, and that he would go and see Mr Gallic or Mrs Gallic. Someone in the officewitness thought it was Mr Grant— said, " You need not see Mr Gallic; he's daft." Witness replied, " Daft or not daft, I must see him." Witness went straight down to the house. Mrs Gallic let him in and showed him into the parlour. No third person was present. Witness expressed surprise that the rent had been raised £20 a year, and she answered that there had been several people after the place. Witness asked if he could not see Mr Gallic himself. She replied, " You can't see him ; he can't be seen; he's not fit to transact any business." Ultimately witness closed at £200. During these interviews Mrs Gallic semed to be a firm woman— not by any means soft. It was a most .confounded untruth if John Gallic had sworn that witness was " three sheets in the wind " when he went to the house, that he (John Gallic) had opened the door and recommended witness to go to Gillies and Street's. John Gallic must have been " five sheets in the wind " when he said that. Witness had no bias or interest in this case whatever, and had never seen Winmill until yesterday. On the 9fch March last John Gallic came to witness and said, "You remember when you came down to see myfather about the lease." Witness replied, " I remember being down, but I don't remember seeing your father." He said, " Oh, but surely you remember seeing my father." Witness answered, " No, I do not." He remarked, "Oh don't, you'remember him coming in when you and mother were speaking ?" Witness said he did not. John Gallic said, " Surely you remember the conversation between you and my father and mother about the lease, and that you were annoyed at the rise of the r6nt." Witness replied, " I remember your mother being there, but not your father." He said, " Oh, you'll think of it to-morrow ; I'm sure you'll remember ; and then come up and see Mr Sinclair." Witness did not go to see Mr Sinclair. To Mr Chapman: Witness did not tell Mr Sinclair that the reason he did not see Gallic was that he had been told Gallic was not attending to business just then. Witness had not refused to give Mr Sinclair information. They had had a few minutes' conversation in the street. Witness was perfectly fair as to either aide, but was not going to volunteer information. He was not very much annoyed at the suggestion that he had been " three sheets in the wind " ; he did not take notice of such scandals. He had never been intoxicated in business hours ; he had never been drunk so that he did not know what he was doing. He had been " elevated " several times, but could always take care of himself. Mr Chapman: Did you not "nip" a good deal at one time ? Witness : I did not. In those days I was an abstainer — absolutely so. I have taken a little since, and hope to do so for some time yet. John Grant said that in the early days he was a carpenter. He came to the colony in 1856. Since then he had resided at the back of the Gallics'. He had been a member of Knox Church since the. first election of office-bearers, aud had held office until four years ago, when he resigned owing to physical infirmities. John Gallic was about witness' first acquaintance in the colony. While in business Gallic was a firm, stubborn man, and people said his temper was easily put up. Witness saw Gallic about the time he went out of business in High street. He was in bed, and Dr Nelson was attending him. Witness could get no word out of him, and was not sure that Gallic knew him. After Galiie went to Leith street witness saw him frequently, mostly when he was going to and from ohurch and at witness' own place. Mr Fraser : In what condition was Gallic in those early days— say about 1861 or 1862 or 1863 ? Witness: There was a great ohange in his mind since he went out of business and went to Leitb street, and I saw the change upon him progressing. Examination continued: Speaking of the time after he went to Leith street and before ha went to the asylum, Gallic could not carry on a connected conversation. About 1863 or 1 864 Gallic had a will. Witness saw it. Gallic took it out of his pocket and showed it to witness and said he wished witness and a person named John Foster to become executors. The will was in nice handwriting. There wji3 no lawyer's name on the will. Gallic was going backward and forward with this will, carrying it about in his coat pocket, for three or fonr months. Witness told him to leave it till he (witness) looked over its contents more minutely. As far as witness could recollect tbere~ were six persons participating. John had more than any of the rest, and Mrs Galliewas entirely left out. The participators were all members of Gallic's family. Witness returned the will and said > he would have nothing to do with it, as he considered it unfair

to leave the head of the family out. - Gallic said he had reason to, blame wife for unfaithfulnessto'him, or something to that effect. Witness sajd that that reason might be real or imaginary on his .part, and that he (witness) would have nothing to do with it. To his Honor : This will was prepared but not executed. Gallic had not signed it, and there were no witnesses. Examination continued : Gallic told witness that Walker was the man with whom his wife had been unfaithful to him. Gallic brought up the matter of the will again before he went to the asylum, and mentioned the names of persons whom he had consulted and who said it was right to do it in that way. These persons were Alexander Findlater, John Creagh, and W. S. Douglas. About that time witness was taken ill, . and was attended by Dr Hulme. Gallic used to come to see him. One day when Gallic called witness asked him to retire until the doctor went, and Dr Hulme said, v Oh, never mind poor Gallic ; he is suffering from softening of the brain." To his Honor : Witness never saw the document after he returned it to Gallic. Gallic never told witness he had signed it. Towards the end of his life witness found on going to call on Gallic that the gates were locked. Mr Fraser: Do you consider that he was a man capable of attending to any simple matter of business ? I speak of the time after he came out of the asylum. Witness : As far as my mind goes it would be impossible to say that he was. Mr Fraser : Has he been properly described as a capable, intelligent man, the head of his household, correcting and advising his children, reading and discussing leadiug articles in the paper, and geaerally taking an active interest in what was going on around him ? Witness: As far as I can say it is totally untrue. Mr Chapman : The picture put by Mr Fraser! Mr Fraser: The picture put by my learned friend. Cross-examined by Mr Chapman: Witness suggested to Gallic that if his grievance was real he ought to take his cause into the Divorce Court. Witness thought that Gallic's mind was at that time strong enough to look after such a matter. But witness thought that very likely Gallic's grievance was only imaginary. Gallic used to come to witness and talk about the family incurring what he thought was needless expense — white dresses, for parties and so on. Gallic did not like to spend his money usejessly. The High street and Leith street properties were both mentioned in the will that witness saw. Gallic told witness he was dissatisfied with the way Gillies and Street were dealing with the High street property. He would often make remarks like that, and then go off into another subject. He mostly stuck to the point, however, when talking about the will. He used to argue the point with witness and ask his advice about it. If lie had been the man he was when in High street he would have taken advice from no one. As to (4allii?'s speech, the more one saw him the more could be made out of what he said, until the last two years, when witness could make out very little of what he said. ' Alexander FindJater, now employed as a carpenter, came out in 1850, in the Lady Nugent, and knew John Gallic well in those days. Witness was 16 or 17 when he came out. Gallic was a rough atid ready sort of man. He went out of business owing to a stroke or that sort of thing. When witness saw him after his illness he was a different sort of man, and his speech was not so plain. What he did say was not worth taking much notice of. He could not carry on a conversation that one would have any patience to listen to for any time. He would not stick to any subject for long. Mr Fraser : Did you hear that part of Mrs Gallic's evidence where she described her husband?— Yes. Mr Fraser : Was that a true statement ? Witness : Well, I cannot believe that myself. Mr Fraser : Was he a man who would take his position at the head of the household, as father of the family, at that time ?— -Certainly not. Mr Fraser: Was he the sort of man who would advise his son not to put his name to the back of a bill, for instance ? Witness : Ido nob think so. He hadn't got the gumption. Examination continued: Witness would describe Gallic as a man whose mind was pretty well gone. That was when he was living in Leith street. Witness never knew of Gallic having auy money at that time. He had a bad penny. One day Gallic went into Kirk's shop aud put the penny on the counter and made signs that he wanted a drink, pointing to a barrel of beer. Witness saw Gallic in the " seventies," and in his opinion Gallic was not then capable of doing business. Cross-examined by Mr Chapman: Witness said that ever since Gallic had his illness he (witness) did not care to speak very much with him. John Grant, re-called by Mr Chapman, said that when he had Gallic's will in bis possession he showed it to a son of old Mr W. H. Cutten, known as " Charley " Outten, who was, witness thought,' in business for himself at that time. He was lodging with witness. Mr Cutten came into the room when witness was looking over it. Witness did not ask Mr Cutten's opinion- on it. Elizabeth Aitken (wife of Alexander Aitken) gave evidence that she had come to the colony .in 1860. She did not know Mr Winmill. • When she first came to Dunedin she lived in York place, and in February 1872 her husband bought the property, on which they now lived. This land was bought from, the Gallic family. Witness and her , husband went down to Gallic's house at about 7 o'clock. They were shown into the front room, and there saw Mrs Gallic and her son John. They talked in a general way about the land, and witness asked if Mr Gailie was not in. Mrs Gallic said he was, but that he was in the other room, and Johnnie said it did not matter, he thought his father was going to bed. Johnnie said it would be sold, house and all for so much Witness repeated the word '• cash," and Mrs gallic s,aid, " Ob, those boys ! they are always for cash." It was agreed that night that the land should be bought for £80;' the transaction to be completed at Gillies and Street's. There was not a particle of truth in the evidence Mrs Gallic had given respecting this transaction. To say that Mr Gallic, sen., was in the room talking about the purchase was a deliberate lie. Mr Gallic, sen., was not in the room at all. Witness next saw Mrs Gallic when she ( called to take witness 7 husband to Gillies and Street's to complete the transaction, Witness and her husband went into their new house on the 2nd of July 1872. Witness remembered the dividing fence being erected. They were asked by Mrs Gallic to put it up, and when talking about the fence Mrs Gallic asken if they would put the palings on her side. Mr Aitken looked at her and said, " The palings on your side ? ' and she said, " Yes ; because if the palings are on your side Mr Gallic wonld be apt to get np on the rails." When the house was building witness went down to see it, and saw John" Gallic, who seemed to be a simple, childish old man. Witness had often heard him speaking, but could never understand him. When witness went there Gallic seemed to walk about the premises, He did not walk yery well.

The children were. very much frightened of him at first, but he" took, no notice of them. She could remember one occasion when Mrs Gallic and herself were speaking, Mr Gallic came for- ( ward and one of witness' boys was frightened, and came running to her. Mrs Gallic said what a pity the children were frightened of him ; he would not touch them ; it was strange how the children took notice of him. Gallic's gate was locked sometimes, and witness had seen Mr Gallic trying to get out when the gate was locked. She had seen him shake the gate, and $vhen he found it" would not open, try to get on the top: 1 of it. He could not do this, and he wsuld then pick up his stick, shake the gate again, then_ strike it with his stick, and then seem quite satisfied' it would not open. Mr Gallic used to walk about with his arms folded, dragging his feet and muttering. He was nearly constantly walking about the yard in this manner. Gallic was not the only man who was there. Witness had seen Walker there very often in the seventies. He used to seem to go about almost as if it was his home. If John Gallic, jun., had sworn M Mrs Aitken said to me she would have nothing to do with the case— that there was nothing wrong with father," -he did not tell the truth. . Witness had seen Henry and Johnnie about the case, and in auswer to them had told them she would have nothing to do with them whatever. Henry told her he was trusting to her being one rif their best witnesses, and she said," Do not take die, because I would be of no use at all." Witness b!ad refused to be a witness until three days ago, and her determination had been changed because she had seen it stated that Gallic took an active part in the sale of 'the ground to witness' husband. i Eobert Henderson Munro deposed that he came to the colony in 1858, and lor many years was in the employ of the late James Macandrew. He knew John Gallic from the very early days, and in the early , days used to see him almost daily. He remembered Gallic going olit of business. iGallie went out of business in consequence of illness, and after thisi .and when he lived in Leith street, he was mentally a changed man. In 1862 and 1863 he could not talk connectedly, and his speech was getting worse. If they spoke to him on one subject he wouid refer to something quite different. Witness left Dunedin in 1865, in the last trip of the City of Dunedin, and returned in 1869. Sometime early in 1870 witness met John Gallic in Frederick street* Gallic was then walking by himself, and witness thought he must be a good deal better. Before witness left in 1865 he was under the impression that Gallic was not right in his mind. Witness first asked after Gallic's health. Witness then asked for a Mr Sheriff with whom Gallic was w/ell acquainted, but the reply was something different altogether, Witness had always found Gallic straightforward in business; > and before his illness he was a strong man physically, and dentally was above the average. Some people looked upon him as a bush lawyer, and used to consult him. , He was, then a fair specimen of an intelligent working man, and was not in any way careless of his rights. Witness did not believe the evidence that had been given as to Gallic after his illness being a capable man who took his position as head of the household. John Anderson (partner in the firm of Anderson and Morrison) deposed that he arrived in 1864, and in 1865 was a i warder in the Dunedin Lunatic Asylum. There - were about 40 male patients then. He remembered Gallic coming to the asylum. Witness had charge of him. Gallic was there a few months. When he came to the asylum he was a very stupid man, and for a few days they had .great trouble with him. He wanted to get out, and they could not quieten him. He was not a raging madman ; he was " doited." Witness could never get any sense out of him. He could never oonverse intelligently while in the asylum. He was quieter when he went away, but in his mental capacity there was not much alteration. While there he was not, witness thought, capable of conducting any little matter of business. In March 1870 witness saw Gallic in Hanover street and spoke to, him. Gallic did not know him. From .what witness saw of him then and subsequently he considered that Gallic's mental condition had deteriorated. Cross-examined: Gallic was pretty excited when brought to the asylum. He was always wanting to get out. Mr Chapman : That is not a sign of insanity, is it? Is it not generally taken as an indication of recovery ? Witness : No, I don't think so. Not in my opinion. James Lawrie, a blacksmith's assistant, deposed that he came to the colony in 1863, and in 1867 was in Wilson's foundry. He knew witness in 1863, but only saw him once then, and Gallic was then greatly excited. In 1867 Gallic used to go about Wilson's shop, He would sometimes goi there with an axe, and would make an attempt at sharpening it. Gallic had a short pipe, and would ask for tobacco, Witness sometimes cut a bit off bis plug and gave it to Gallic, and Gallic would stick it in his pipe and try to smoke it without cutting it up. Witness could not understand what Gallic said, and did not suspect he was -a man of great mental power, who could give advice. Gallic used sometimes to gather cockles on the beach ; the boys would interfere with him, and he would try to run after them. This, however, did not often happen. Witness never knew Gallic to have tobacco or money of his;own, and used to think he was silly. Gillie used to take no heed of what was, aa^d before hini, and did not look like (\ roan who wag cared for] Gross-examined : Witness never had any conversation with Gallic, aud could only speak from appearances. Ellen Peters deposed that she was a widow residing in Dunedin. She first came to Dunedin about 22 years ago. After she had been here about two years she met Mrs ,-Ludford, who visited t\e house with other young people. B,oth wer.e members of the Baptist Church. Twelve months after witness visited Mrs Gallic's houfee. Annie was then ill, and finding her ill, witness assisted in nursing her, stopping in the house during the day. The illness was a serious one* and witness was backwards and forwards to the house for some weeks. All the family were there at that time. Mrs Yorke also assisted in the nursing. Witness was then on friendly terms with Mrs Gallic, who was rather a talkative woman, and they used to talk a good deal. Mr Gallic was not like the master of the house, but was like a "softie." Witness did not think the poor man knew what was going on. He knew there was something wrong, but witness thought he did not know exaotly what was going on. Witness did not notice him reading the Star 5 he might piok up, a paper in the room, but he did not know whether it was upside down or not. She had never heard him discussing the leading articles, or once talk intelligently. She did not think he was ! capable of talking sensibly or connectedly with an yone. Witness had never heard Gallic talking to his, wife, or his* wife talking to him, only to' tell . him to go. out of the way. He was a. nonentity in the hpuse. Mr Gallic always sat at the corner of the table with three pieces of bread and butter on a plate and a, large oup of, tea. He m$ to b*eak. big

food into his cup, and then cram it into hi mouth. He did not attempt to swallow, but kept cramming it into his mouth, and one would fear he would be choked. His dinner and tea were the same. Witness never saw him have any meat. He took this food, and when he had done would leave the table. Gallic used to shamble about the house, and would sometimes go into the sick room, look at his daughter, mumble, and go out. No one took notice of him. She did not think they could call Gallic's speech speaking at all. Gallic never took any notice of witness. The old man used' to stand mumbling, J and witness and her sister standing by- him would say, " Poor old man, he seems as though he would like to understand." Mrs Gallic had spoken to witness about her husband. Mrs Gallic told her that she had had to go befortt Mr Strode and swear that he .was dead — because he was to all intents and purposes dead to the world — before she could manage the property. On another occasion she said she was surety for his good conduct, and that one night he had got out of b,ed and she had to run after him up Hanover street in her undress. Mrs Gallic also said he would get up in the night and move the furniture about if she did not watch him, and that she had to care for him as a child, and wash and dress him. About the only sane thing witness knew Gallic did was to go to get shaved. Mrs Gallic said she gave him sixpence on Saturday night and he would go and get shaved ; that his daughter had trained him till he wonld go mechanically. Witness had heard Mrs. Gallic say if she did not look after him he would put his trousers on hind side first. Mrs Galiie was the boss of the house. She was a woman who could and did rule. Cross-examined: During the three weeks witness was there every day, and for the greater part of each day. The bread diet was the only food she had seen Mr Gallic get. It would not be true to say he had whatever was going. To say that was not true. The man had abso* lutely no understanding. If sent out of the room, fye would know he had to go, but that would be the limit of his understanding. Wit« ness did not think te could count his fingers or his daughters. Witness had other opportunities of observing Gallic— preparing for Annie's wedding and during her second illness. Witneß&* observations were the same on each occasion. After Annie's death witness did not remembeU going to the house. Re-examined by Mr Fraser : It was quite true that Gallic gave away his daughter Annie at her" marriage. It was Annie's wish that it should be so. He was dressed up for the occasion, led into the room, and sat down in a chair; and thatt was all he had to do with the affair. He seemed pleased at being dressed up. At tho time of Annie's death witness did not think Mrs Gallio was a woman of sober habits ; there was a good deal of drink going about at the time of the illness ; and she said things that she would not have ■ said but for the drink. On the last night when Dr Hocken came in, witness said, " Come along, doctor ; this is a fearful house. Mrs Gallic is. drunk and the nurse too." Witness did not think the nurse could hear what she said, but she did, and was very angry. The drink was taken by the nurse quite accidentally. Cross-examined: Witness had not met Dr Hocken since. She could not remember the name of the nurse; but supposed Mrs Gallic would know. . Annie had just passed away when Mrs Gallic was in that condition and when Dr Hocken came in. Witness had not noticed Mrs Gallic in that condition before ; witness had been excited, but witness did not know the cause. Mr Gallic took no part in the wedding ; , he was just brought in dressed. Elizabeth Hill deposed that she was a widow and was 70 years old. Witness knew the late Mrs Winmill, but did not know the late John Gallic. Mrs Wlnmill was a very nice girl. Shs behaved herself well whilst Bhe was with witness and witness never heard anything to the contrary. Mrs Winmill was a girl who, waa fond of her mother, and spoke well of her, and Bhe was very fond of her. Witness took Caseie in because she had been turned out of her home, and. took her in at her own request. She stayed with witness between six and seven weeks. Witness was not intimate with any of the family but Cassie. Cassie was as good as a girl could be, and left witness' house to^ be reconciled to her mother. Witness had said to her, '< Go, and if you can't agree come back again, and my house is open to you." After Oassje lei\ Mrs Gallic met witness and told her she had no right to take her daughter in. Witness replied that she thought she 'had done no harm. Witness said, "If I had not taken her in she would have been on the streets," and Mrs Gallic added, " where I wish her to be." There was more said, but witness left Mrs Gallic talking to herself, for she had heard enough, and did not wish to hear more. Cross-examined : Did not think Cassie waij the kind of girl to go wrong, and ehe wouldt never have suggested to anyone that she wouldj go wrong in the sense of becoming immoral The evidence of Andrew Mercer was then read, and was to the effect that after Gallic left off business he got worse and more imbecile, aDdl might be called a harmless, silly man. James Gebbie (gardener) deposed that he. had resided in Dunedin since 3848, and knew Galli& yery well in the early days. After Gallic went to Leith street he was worse in his speech, and witness would, take him to be very childish— not ike whftt ao was in his smithy days. During the Wfc year or two witness saw Qallie he could not carry on a • connected conversation. If Gallic "was given anything to do, such as to get water or gather scrub, he would do it but witness looked on him as a child. Witness would not say Galiie would not sit down and read at the Star, but he believed he could not follow the sense. Cross-examined ; Witness could not say how long it was before his death that he had had conversations with Mr Gallic. The oouvt adjourned at 5.15 until half-pasfc 10, next (Saturday) morning. Saturday, April 6. The hearing of the case was resumed at 10. 00, Emma Yorke (wife of Frederick Yorke) deposed that she came to the colony in November 1869, and was sister to Mrs Peters. Witness first met the Gallic family in the early part of 1870, when Annie had congestion of the lungs. Witness' sister introduced he» to the family, Mrs Gallic complained that Annie would not take food from her, and that she herself was unable to nurse her inasmuch as she had had no experience. Witness used to wash and dress Annie in the morning and take her any little thing she might fancy. Witness had nursed cases of brain disease at the Great Ormond> street Hospital. Witness went with her sister to the Gallics to prepare for Annie's wedding, and was also at? the house nursing Annie in her last illness. When witness first saw Mr Gallic she took him to be an imbecile. He slipped about the housed and seemed to have no purpose in life. Witness could not understand a word he said. His man* ncr at table was so peculiar that if she couldl have turned- her back on him she would have done so— it was such as to make one inclined 1 to vomit. Mrs Gallic told witness that Gallic waa suffering from softening of the brain, and that these were symptoms ?f it before they were

married ; and that she blamed his mother for allowing the marriage, but supposed the old lady was glad to get him off. Those were the words as near as witness could remember. Mrs ; Gallic also said that she had to watch him in the morning or he would put on his trousers hind side foremost. Witness asked her why she got him out of the asylum as he was such a handful. Mrs Gallic replied, "Oh, poor old fellow." Witness never suspected that Mrs Gallic drank to excess until the last night of Annie's life. It was only towards the evening, when Mrs Gallic lay down and slept on the girl's bed that witness suspected her of drinking. That was some hours before Annie's death. Witness and her sister got Mrs Gallic to bed. Witness would like to explain that the nurse had had very unpleasant duties to perform that night, and to keep the smells off her stomach witness kept giving her nips of brandy. This lasted all night, and the result was that at the last the nurse was intoxicated. It was not the nurse's fault in any way. Witness made her take the brandy. Witness did not know the nurse's name. Mrs Gallic called on witness after Mrs Ludford left home, and, dropping on her knees, called God to witness that the things Lydia had been saying about her were untrue. No names were mentioned. Cross-examined: Gallic's speech was a complete barrier to conversation so far as witness was concerned. Joe Gough, a lamplighter in 1867-8, deposed to the state of Gallic's mind at that period. He had not a very prepossessing appearance; he was generally untidy. He could never carry on a connected conversation with witness, though he (Gough) had made many attempts at it Jane Fairbairn (wife of Andrew Fairbairn) deposed that she had lived on property next to the Gallics from the latter part of 1869 to the latter part of 1872. After a while she got to i know the Gallic family, but there was not any great intimacy. She used to speak to Mrs Gallic and to Mr Gallic. Witness became acquainted with the Gallics during Annie's last illness. At this time John Gallic was a very peculiar man : he could, not speak well, used to walk with his head leaning forward, and had a dull, heavy countenance. The first time witness met him, Gallic came to the gate to tell her something, and she could not understand him. Mrs Gallic came to the fence to explain what he meant. Witness could not anderstand Gallic at any time, and had never had any conversation with him. Mrs Gallic was not exactly fond of talking, but used to speak freely. One time Mrs Gallic told her that Mr Gallic was a good deal of trouble to her, and that he required a great deal of attendance. Mr Gallic used to give her little girl swings, and then would swing his own little girl. He would give them 20 swings each. Witness never had conversations with Mr Gallic, because it seemed a trouble to him to speak. Gallic seemed an eccentric sort of man. Elizabeth Baxter (wife of Alexander Baxter) deposed that before Gallic was taken to the asylum he was a silly looking old fellow, and very untidy. After Gallic came out of the asylum he was no better. Gallic had very little intelligence, and did not seem to take notice of anything. Henry Duncan (a settler in the North-East Valley) deposed that he knew none of the parties to the suit. Witness arrived here in 1850. In the early days witness saw a good deal of Gallic, who was then a shrewd man, and he considered he was very clever among horses. When Gallic was a bit riled then he was a pretty hard case. Witness went from Dunedin to Victoria, and came back in 1863. Some time between 1863 and 1870 witness met Gallic in George street and tried to get Gallic to remember him, and he reminded him of several things, but witness could not succeed. Gallic gave a sort of laugh, and then hung down his head. It appeared to witness then that Gallic was of anything but sound mind— that his brain was a little soft. Comparing him mentally with the man he had been when in the smithy, if anyone said there was no difference, witness would say that person was not speaking the truth. After this witness had seen j Gallic going to Knox Church, but had had no further acquaintance with him. Gallic would stand up in church and look round, and then those next him would get him to sit down again. Witness had seen this several times. Dr Stuart used to waive his hand to Gallic, and it had a wonderful electric effect: Gallic would sit down. In the opinion of witness Gallic was wholly unfit to transact business. Cross-examined : Witness was about 17 when he went away, and when he returned was 22 or 23 years old. So far as conversation was concerned, he put the one test to Gallic and failed to succeed. Gallic's speech was different from ■ what it had been, and was very difficult to follow. ! Francis Graham deposed that Gallic appeared to him to be an imbecile in body and mind, and witness never had reason to think anything else. It seemed to him from them that Mr Gallic was treated by the members of the family as though he was not there. George Driver (a bootmaker) deposed to Henry Gallic having struck his sister Cassie with a stick in Hanover street. Duncan Macfarlane (a carpenter) deposed that he first came to the colony in 1858. He knew the late John Gallic, who was a vary eccentric sort of man. Witness saw the bailiff episode, when Gallic thrashed the bailiff. Witness saw him after he wenttoLeith street— from 1863 up to about 1867. Witness talked to him sometimes as he passed, but Gallic was not capable of talking sensibly. He seemed to be very absentminded. There was a great difference between the Gallic of those days and the Gallic of the earlier days. Witness thought no reasonable man sould say there was no difference. The difference was very apparent. When the Surat was wrecked witness told Gallic about it ; he was sort of mumbling away, and what witness could make out was, " Serves her right." At the conclusion of this witnesses' evidence, The further hearing of the case was adthe understauding that it would be taken then journed until 2 p.m. on Monday, 15th inst., on or as soon after as practicable. The court rose at 1.10 p.m.