Friday, August 10. LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL.

Otago Witness, Issue 1917, 17 August 1888, Page 15

Friday, August 10. LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL.

DEALING WITH MONEYS AND LAND OF THE CROWN. The Hon. G. M. WATERHOUSE moved— " That an address be presented to bis Excellency the Governor representing that whereas a practice has crept into Parliament of bills making grants of land belonging to the Crown being introduced by private members contrary to the spirit if not the letter ef the Constitution, and whereas the continuance of such practise is calculated to lead to waste of public estate, this Council requests that his Excellency will cause a bill to be introduced into Parliament providing that no bills disposing of lands belonging to the Crown shall be introduced into Parliament except in the manner provided in the Constitution Act as regards introduction of bills disposing of moneys of the Crown." The Hon. Sir F. WHITAKER objected to the motion, saying that the assent of the Crown had first to be obtained before the smallest piece of laud could be disposed of, and that the course at present adopted for disposal of waste lands of the Crown was considered best. He hoped, therefore, that Mr Waterhouse would withdraw the motion. After debate the motion waragreed to on the voices. BILLS DEALT WITH. The Lecal Court Proceedings Bill was committed, read a third time, and passed. The Hon. R. OLIVER moved thu third reading of the Obago Harbour Board Indemnity and Lands Vesting Bill. Mr WILSON moved that the bill be recommitted with a view of amending clause 3. The Council divided, with the result that the bill was. read a third time by 17 to 8. The bill then passed. THE MAORI STONEWALLING. The Maoris, like all semi-barbarous races, are very apt at picking up and copying the vices of their more enlightened brethren: It is a wellestablished fact that the vicious habits of the pakeha have taken deep root among the Natives, and they even go so far as to copy the political tricks and devices of the dominant race." " They make no secret of their indebtedness to the Europeans in the matter of getting initiated iuto the mysteries of " stonewalling," and they boast openly that they have learned a number of useful "wrinkles" from the pakeha. Mr Sydney Taiwhanga is not a very high class representative of the Maori race so. far «s physique is concerned. He is short in stature, common looking in appearance, and asthmatic in his delivery, but notwithstanding these drawbacks he has managed to keep the House sitting for 28 hours. His vocal organs at the present time seem to be in as good a condition as they were when the stonewalling began at 3 o'clock yesterday a|terqopo, Previous 'to the present

crisis Mr Sydney Taiwhanga was regarded as & weak, vacillating, mean specimen of the Maori race, but the stand taken up by him on the Native bills has raised Kirn in the estimation of both sides of the House. Since the stonewalling was commenced yesterday afternoon Mr Sydney Taiwhanga has been the life and soul of the movement. Up to the present time (7.30), he has spoken for 17 hours with only a few " spells." There is no doubt that he has been the inspiring spirit of the agitation against the Native policy of the Government, and wright or wrong he has earned the gratitude of the Natives. He was assisted it is true by Mr Taipua and two or three European members, but had it not been for his tenacity of purpose, the Government would have carried the day and pushed all the Native bills through committee last night. The numerous interesting incidents which occurred during the discussion would make some very interesting chapters in the political history of New Zealand, but space will not permit me to refer to more than one or two of them. At 4 o'clock this morning Mr Kelly, chairman of the Native Affairs Committee, kept on interrupting the irrepressible Mr Taiwhanga until the patience of the latter gentleman became exhausted. Turning upon his persecutor he charged him with being indebted to the Natives to the amount of £300. Mr Kelly waxed indignant, and challenged Mr Taiwhanga to substantiate the charge. Some parleying took place, and Mr Taiwhanga informed the committee that he would withdraw the charge and the words. Some amusement was occasioned by the efforts made to rouse the numerous honourable gents who were overtaken by the drowsy god. When the somnolent representatives were awakened leave was graated to Mr Taiwhanga to withdraw the offensive expression. The Maori members were assisted in their stonewalling by Sir George Grey and Messrs Reeves and Taylor. The evergeen member for Inangahua expressed a desire to read the entire text of the treaty of Waitangi in the original, informing the committee that he knew as much about the Maori language as a mule knows about the " Shorter Catechism." The member for Sydeuham was also very amusing, some of his remarks eliciting roars of laughter. From what I have heard and read of Mr Sydney Taiwhanga's antecedents I should not have imagined that he was burdened with an overstock ot' religion, but from the manner in which he interspersed his remarks with Scripture references aud quotations one would have imagined that he was a Puritan of the Puritans. He appealed to the Almighty on several occasions to put wisdom into the.minds and softness into the hearts of the members of the House, so that they might see the tyranny which was sought to be inflicted on the Native race by the perfidious occupants of the Treasury benches. He entreated his colleague Mr Taipua to fight and be strong in the good cause, and not to. give way on any account! The action of the Government in refusiug to allow any adjournment for breakfast or luncheon occasioned a good deal of unfavourable comment. ItwasurgedthatthePremier was determined to force the bills through by an exhibition of mere brute force, and this evoked a good deal of sympathy for the Maoris. I know for a fact that if the Government had refused an adjournment at half-past 5 the bulk of the Opposition would have been up in arms to protest against such a high-handed proceeding. The action of Mr Carroll in supporting the Government as against his colleagues has occasioned some comment, and it is openly stated that his sympathies are with the laud monopolists. However that may be, there is no doubt that he made a really clever speech in support of the Government measures. One of the most remarkable incidents in the discussion was a rather sharp encounter between the Premier and Sir George Grey. The Premier was wroth and grating as is his wont, and Sir George was sarcastic. Sir Harry fell into hi 3 old fault of widening old sores instead of making an effort to heal them. It is rumoured that the Ministry instigated the member for Lyttelton to sib beside Mr Taiwhanga in order to prevent him from getting a wink of sleep. I do not vouch for the truth of the rumour, but I know for a fact that Mr Joyce sat beside Mr Taiwhan&a all the afternoon, chatting with him apparently on the most friendly terms. When the committee met after the dinner adjournment the suggestion that some prominent Maori chief should be heard at the bar of the House was again brought up. Sir George Grey spoke warmly in support of giving the chiefs a hearing. Mr Carroll followed with an apologetic speech, in the course of which he made some uncomplimentary references to Sir George Grey. The member for Kumara came to the rescue of the Knight of Kawau, and delivered an able and exhaustive speech on the Native question. He was particularly severe on Mr Carroll, and stated that the measure under discussion was bo enable a small section of monopolising plutocrats to geb possession of the Majri lands. If the bill Under consideration were passed, Mr Seddon predicted that in a few years' time the Maoris would be a race of beggars, and they might re-echo the words of the celebrated Scotch song, "We are landless, landless, landless, gregalloch." Mr Seddon's speech was listened to with much attention, and when he concluded he was rewarded with a round of applause. Mr Hutchison, in a very telling speech, urged that certain Maori chiefs should be heard at the bar of the House. He paid a high compliment to Sir George Grey for his noble efforts on behalf of the Native race. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES. STONEWALLING. After the galleries were cleared last night Mr Taiwhanga continued speaking for somo time, but ultimately withdrew his motion that the chairman leave the chair. A point of order was raised shortly afterwards, and Mr Taiwhanga, who had resumed his seat, not rising again immediately, clause 3 was carried on the voices be,fore he appeared to realise the sitnation. On clause 4, providing Natives may alienate lands like Europeans, subject to certain restrictions, Sir G. Grey moved an amendment prohibiting the purchase of lands beyond the value of £2500. Mr Verrall moved a further amendment to substitute £1000. At 1.30 a.m. the galleries were reopened, and Mr Taiwhanga, assisted by Blr Taipua, continued the opposition. At 4 a.m. Mr Taylor spoke for seme time on the side of Maori members, amid frequent interruptions. Mr Reeves (Inangahua) also spoke for about an hour, professing himself always ready to help the weak against tha strong. After .that Mr Taiwhanga resumed his quotations from " Groans of the Maoris," a book of which he ha<] previously made considerable use, and urged the Government to postpone

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the bills until they could be considered by a great meeting of chiefs in March next at the Bay of Islands. At 815 a.m. Mr Taipua moved that, an hour's adjournment be allowed for breakfast, and Mr Seymour, who was'then in the' chair, 6aid he would vaoate it till 915, and left the chair. The Hon. T; W. Hislop at once moved that Mr Cowan take the chair, but opposition was raised and a division demanded, and eventually the Speaker had to be scut for to decide whether the proceedings were in ord^r/ He ruled that the division must be allowed, and, by 21 to 7, Mr Cowan was voted to the chair. Mr Taylor spoke again, and had to apologise to Mr Verrall for saying the member fffr Ashley seemed to be a shingle or two short. Mr Carroll followed, and, addressing himself to the Natives in the gallery, defended the action of himself and Mr Pratt in supporting the bill, because there was a general demand for a repeal of the Native Land Administration Act, and on the whole the bill embodied the wishes of the Natives as expressed at their meetings. Mr Tatwhanga said if he had made any charges against Mr Oarroll he would withdraw them, but wished the legislation to be deferred till next session, and would iigbt the matter to the bitter end. At 1 o'clock he moved an adjournment for an hour. — Lost by 34 to 4. Mr Taipua then came to his assistance again. Mr Reeves (Inangahua) suggested at 2 p.m. that the committee should adjourn for an hour to enable those members who bad been taking part iv the debate on this bill some little time for refreshment. — The Premier opposed the proposal, and hoped tho committee would not agree to it. The Government were willing to consider every reasonable suguestion maoe by the Native members, but they had determined to go right through with the bill without any adjournment. . Mr Carroll then asked that tho Native interpreters might be relieved from the great strain put on them by such lengthy attendance in the House. He disapproved of the tactica adopted by the other Native members in stonewalling the bill. The Premier said he was quite agreeable that interpreters should be relieved as nobody wanted to hear the speeches interpreted that were now being delivered. Mr Taipua resumed speaking, and said he agreed with the Premier that the debate should go on without adjournment. He continued addressing the House through an interpreter till 3 o'clock, when Mr Taiwhanga again spoke for about an hour. He complained that he and Mr Taipua were being kept there without food, and pointed out that when the Otago Central railway was under discussion regular adjournments were allowed for refreshments. Mr Reevks (luangahua) again asked the Premier to allow a short adjournment, but the Premier again refused. Mr Pratt suggested that Messrs Taiwhanga and Taipua be allowed to leave the Housefor a short tiuitt in order that they might interview some Native chiefs aud arrange for some compromise. Ho (Mr Pratt) wished to say he did nob sympathise with his Maori colleague 1 ! in the stonewalling tactics they were adopting, aud ho felt pure no good could come of such tactics. He thought it was perfectly useless opposing this measure, as eventually it must be carried, and as the Natives in his own district were fall anxious for the repeal of tho Native Land Administration Act he would not oppose the present bill. Mr Taipua again spoke till 5 10 p.m., when Mr Reeves (Inangahua) kept the debate going till the 5.30 adjournment. Mr Perceval asked whether tho House must necessarily adjourn for dinner on an occasion of this kind. Mr Haml'N said he was nob inclined to take the respoiibiuility on himself ot altering the practice thr.t had prevailed in tusHouse for the lasß 10 or 15 years, aud the usual adjournment would therefore take place. The House resumed at 7.30 p.m. Mr REKVES continued speaking against the bill till 7 45 Mr SEDDON said during the dinner adjournment two Native chiefs, Major Kemp and a Wairarapa chief, had expressed a desire to be heard at the bar cf the House on those bills, and ho asked the Premier to consent to that, which he thought would have a good effect and would relieve Messrs Taipua and Taiwhauga of some responsibilitj'. • The Hon. Sir H. A. ATKINSON said ho should be glad ro hear some proposal from Mr Taiwhanga on tho subject. Mr TAI W HANGA asked whether Ihe Premier would consent to the Native chiefs being heard at the bar of the House. IE that were agreed he would allow ckuse 4, which they had been stonewalling, to pass. Mr TAIPUA said they had had a long discussion on this matter, aud they wished it brought to an end, and to leave it in the hands of the chiefs thab were to be brought to the bar of tho House. Mr CARROLL expressed pleasure at the remarks of his colleagues, Messrs Taiwhanga and Taipua, and complimented them on tho vigour with which they had carried on tho debate up to that time. He hoped when the Native chiefs were htard that the dispute would be ended. ' The Hon Sir H. A. ATKINSON asked whether Messrs Taipua and Taiwhanga would give their word to withdraw all stonewalling of the bills and only make reasonable comments on them on condition that the two chiefs were heard at the bar of the House. Mr TAIPUA quite agreed with what the Premier said, and he should be content with moving reasonable amendments after the chiefs were heard. The Hon Sir H. A. ATKINSON understood that the two members pledged their words as chiefs that they would withdraw the stonewalling tactic?. If that were so he should ask tho House to pass the fourth clause, and he should then move to reporb progress in order to allow the Native chiefs to be heard at the bar of the House. Sir G. GREY asked why they should pass this clause first. There were several amendments to be proposed to it. The Hon. Sir H. A. ATKINSON said in the interests of law and order the clause should be passed as they bad been many hours now<in discussing it. If they bad any amendments to propose, they might submit them at once and they could be considered. ' ' Messrs SEDDON and REEVES (Inangahua) agreed with Sir G. Grey, and thought the chiefs should be heard before the clause was passed. Sir G. GREY aefain objected to the course proposed by the Premier, and contended that they were not justified in parsing a measure of this kind without putting a limit to the amount of land that could be purchased by one individual such as had been proposed by him. The clause a3 it stood was simply to hand over to the wealthy the whole of the Native land and do an injustice to the whole European population. The Hon. Sir H. A ATKINSON pointed out that the precaution that Sir G. Grey was contending for was provided for in another by the interposition of the Native Lands Frauds Commissioner. j Sir G. GREY said that the commissioner would not prevent large tracts of land being

parted with in the same manner as two million and a-half acres were given to the Midland railway and 500,000 acres asked for the Ofcago Central railway. Mr CARROLL said Sir G. Grey's speech suggested that he was not sincere in his advocacy of the Native interests, as he had plainly told them that he had to consider the interests of the European population. He pointed out that while Sir G. Grey was Premier he had never brought a single act to benefit the Native people, and yet he always posed as a friend of the Natives. He also reminded the House that the clause in. the Government bill which Sir G. Grey so much objected to went far beyond the Clause in the bill which the Natives themselves submitted for consideration of the Government. Mr SEDDON thought he should never hear a member of the Native race ask what Sir G. Grey had done. He had done more for the Native race than any other member in the House. Mr HUTCHISON pointed out that if the clause were passed the whole of the Government bill would have passed the committee, and he would ask whether it was any use in hearing the Native chiefs if the bill was passed. He thereforej would ask the Premier to hear the Natives first. Besides it was scarcely fair to ask them to agree to this clause without discussion, as the whole of the time up to the present had been monopolised by the Native members. Sir G. GREY here rose and said they were relieved from a considerable difficulty as the chiefs had stated that they were ready to be heard at the bar of the House before clause 4 was passed, as they might do some good, but they had no wish to be heard afterwards. He entirely repudiated the attack made on him by Mr Carroll, and solemnly asserted that he was actuated solely by a desire to benefit the Natives themselves. Colonel FRASER said he should be-com-pelled to join the stonewallers unless some restrictive clause such as that moved by Sir G. Grey was accepted. After further discussion, The Hon. T. W. HISLOP said the Native members perfectly understood the condition named by the Premier on which the Native chiefs were to be heard at the bar of the House. He deprecated the attempts made by the other members to induce the Native members to break their word. He also failed to see why interference should take place in this matter between the Government and the Natives. Mr W. P. REEVES (St. Albans) protested against the stonewalling tactics that had been indulged in for the last 24 hours, and hoped every member of the House would make a stand for the honour and dignity of the Legislature, so that such tactics should not be repeated. Dr FITCHETT moved that progress be rereported in order that the Natives might be heard at the bar of the House. The Hon. Sir H. A. ATKINSON said he was quite agreeable to report progress if clause 4 were passed. The motion for reporting progress was lost on the voices. Sir G. Grey's amendment was also lost on the voices. Mr SEDDON moved a proviso to the clause— 11 That no person or corporation be entitled to purchase more than 10,000 .acres of land," but afterwards withdrew it. Clause 4 passed by 55 to 10. The Hon. E. MITCHELSON moved to report progress, which was agreed to. The SPEAKER laid on the table a petition he had received from 20 Native chiefs praying that the Native Lands Bill should not be passed into law till the Native 3 had sufficient time to consider it fully. AT THE BAE OF THE HOUSE. The Hon. Sir H. A. ATKINSON then moved that Mr Speaker invite the Native chiefs, Major Kemp a^d Piripi, to address the House at the bar on resuming after supper adjournment. — Agreed to. Major Kemp said he desired to thank the Speaker and the House for being allowed to appear before them. The Native members, he asserted, had not been speaking their own words. They had been speaking on behalf of the chiefs now in Wellington and of Natives in the colony as to Native bills. They had not had time to consider them fully and they had not forgot the promises made by the Premier last year that those bills would be circulated amongst the Natives. He objected to the rating and taxing clause in the Native Land Bill, also to the clause which threw open native land. He had stated to the chief judge that he did not approve of these measures, and that he thought they were introduced in the interests of friends of the Government. It appeared to him that no benefit could be conferred on the women and children of the Native people if these bills became law. He had fought on the side of the Government, but his services did not appear to be remembered, and he saw now there was gome evil in store for him. Ho interpreted the word "amendment" to mean that everything should be made straight, but he thought that was a misnomer as the Native Lands Bill would make everything crooked. If a fair and just law were passed they would come out of the dark and everything would be light. All the Natives asked for was a good law and government, and members of the House would have the administration of such a law. The reason they wished those bills to be postponed was because they wanted the Government to meet the Natives at the great meeting which was to be held at Waitangi next year. They asked for this favour, because their past experience of Native legislation was unfortunate. No definite promise had been made as to the taxing clauses. They might be made to reappear a few days or next year, and it was on that account he asked to. appear before the House. He wished it to be clearly understood that the Native chiefs in Wellington and himself opposed the Government bills altogether. Mr Hiawera wished long life and happiness to the Speaker, Government) and members of the House, and he felt grateful for being allowed to come before them. He said he and other chiefs came there in support of the petition now before the House respecting Native bills. The chiefs maintained they had not yet had an opportunity of fully considering them, and he thought it was only just to the Natives that those bills should be postponed for the present until they were referred to the large meeting at Waitangi. They trusted the Government would act in the same way as the previous Government with respect to the bill brought in by Mr Ballance. The chiefs further thought that both races should have time to consider those measures, so that when they were passed they might be good law. They also should remember that both races were living together, and they should endeavour to make good laws for the benefit of bofch. The SPEAKER thought he could say on behalf of himself and his brother members, that they had heard with very great pleasure the frank expression of opinion with which the chiefs had favoured them. He himself trusted that the straightforward language they had used would have a beneficial effect when the measures were under discussion, and that a fair and full consideration would be given to all amendments that might be moved.. The chiefs theo withdrew from the Chamber.

THE NATIVE LAND BILL CONTINUED. The House then went into committee for further consideration of the Native Land Bill. Mr HUTCHISON moved that clause 5 be retained with certain provisions. Clause 5 provided that instruments under which the Natives held their land, subject to a restriction on alienation, shall be construed as if the words declaring the restriction were omitted from those instruments. — (This clause had been struck out by the Native Bills Committee.) The Hon. Sir H. A. ATKINSON said Mr Hutchison's amendment would change the whole scope of the bill. After some discussion, the clause providing for the removal of restrictions was retained in the bill by 28 to 23. Mr CARROLL expressed regret at this clause being retained by the committee. Mr Hutchison's amendment was then put, to the effect that Natives acting as trustees for others and these for whom reserves were set apart should be exempted from the clause. Sir JOHN HALL regretted the decision just arrived at by the committee, and he expressed a hope that the bill would not become law, or at any rate that in another place the interests of the Natives would be better preserved. Mr MOSS approved of the restrictions being removed, and hoped the Natives would depend on themselves and not on the Government. The Hon. E. MITCHELSON quite agreed with Mr Carroll that the committee had made a serious mistako in retaining this clause, and he hoped when Mr Hutchison's amendment was added to the clause that both would be rejected by the committee. The Hon. J. BALLANCE said he had voted for the retention of the clause in order that reserves should be fixed by law. Mr PYKE hoped the committee would take the advice of the Maori members and not of the Government on this question. The Hon. Sir H. A. ATKINSON suggested that the clause should now remain as it stood without Mr Hutchison's amendment, and that they Bhould go on with the bill. The Government would afterwards consider what should be done in respect to the clause. Mr HUTCHISON then withdrew his amendment. Clause 6, relating to taxing Native lands, was struck out. Mr CADMAN moved a new clause that the Crown might resume any auriferous land sold by the Natives upon payment of a fair compensation. — Agreed to. Mr BEETHAM moved a new clause enabling the trustees for persons under disability to renew leases. — Agreed to. The Native Land Court Act Amendment Bill was committed. The Hon. J. BALLANCE suggested that the bill be postponed till Monday on account of the lateness of the hour. He felt sure there would be no organised opposition to it, and thau it would not take more than two hours. Mr CARROLL moved that progress be reported, which was agreed to on the voices. The House rose at 1.35 a.m., after sitting for 35 hours. PERSONAL. The Hon. Mr Larnach took his seat in the House this afternoon and was welcomed by a large number of members. I am pleased to be in a position to state that the Hon. W. H. Reynolds is getting all right again. He took his place in the Council this afternoon. REFRACTORY ORES. No settlement has yet been afrived at with regard to the treatment of refractory ores. The Minister of Mines informs me that he is taking active steps to have the matter speedily dealt with. NATIVE LAND LEGISLATION. The measure forwarded to the Native Minister as representing the wishes of the Natives on Native land legislation (expressed at various meetings held in the North Island) provides for" the repeal of the Native Land Court Act and " The Native Land Administration Act of 1886," the Native Land Rating Act, and Native Succession Act, leaving, however, some parts of the Native Land Court Act in force, so far as to allow the Native committees to assist in settling disputed land claims. It is proposed to give the Native committees all the powers and jurisdiction of the Native Land Court, to release them from Government control, and give them power to deal with cases according to Native custom, and to adjudicate oa subdivision cases. The Natives are to have full authority to deal with their own lands, but the sale of land, the title of which has not been ascertained, shall be invalid, and the land was not to be sold unless reserves have been made for the people and their children. The other most important proposals are that Natives who are destitute o| laud on account of confiscation or by Government purchases and decisions of courts should be supplied with land by the Government (including Taiwhaio and his people) ; that lauds given for school purposes and Government buildings should be returned to the Maoris where the purpose for which gifts were made have not been fulfilled ; that county councils, before laying off roads upon Maori land, shall apply to the owners to suggest the route ; that no road should be made without the owners' consent; that the dog tax shall not bo in force in Maori districts.