Tuesday, September 8. EMPLOYMENT OF BOYS.

Otago Witness, Issue 1764, 12 September 1885, Page 12

Tuesday, September 8. EMPLOYMENT OF BOYS.

On the motion of the Hon. Mr REEVES, the Employment of Females and Others Bill was amended so that boys could bo employed on Saturdays from the hours of 1 p.m. to 6 p.m. in the printing and pufolishing of newspapers. BILLS DEALT WITH. The Hons. .'Messrs Millar, Reynolds, and Menzies were appointed a committee to draw up reasons for still insisting on the amendments of the Council in the Mines Bill, which had been disagreed to by the House of Representatives. s " The Rating Act 1822 Amendment Bill " and the Property Law Consolidation Bill were further considered in committee, and reported with amendments. REPLIES TO QUESTIONS. Replying to Mr Vincent Pyke, if the Government will give effect to the recommendations of the Goldfields and Mines Committee re aid to prospecting and rewards for the discovery of new goldfields, The Hon. W. J. M. LARNACH said the Goveramtmb would place a sum on the Supplementary Estimates for that purpose. Replying to Mr Johnston, if the Colonial Treasurer will give such instructions to commissioner as will cause the Property Tax Department to compile a return similar to the classification of ISBI, but which will in addition show the total amount upon which each class pay the tax, also the number in each class exempt from taxation, and the total amount of such exemption, and if he will cause return of 1881 to be amended so that it may be more useful for comparison with subsequent returns Sir JULIUS VOGEL said this would be done this year. Replying to Mr J. W. Thomson, whether the Government intend to give effect to the report of the Public Petitions Committee of last session in the case of Mr Donald Rpnderson, The Hon. E. RICHARDSON said a sum would be placed on the Supplementary Estimates for the purpose. Replying to Mr J. B. Whyte, if the Minister for Public Works will cause the scheme of railway management advocated by Mr Samuel Vaile, and in favour of which nearly 7000 .settlers in New Zealand have signed a petition to this House to be examined and reported on by someone who, in his opinion, is competent to deal with the subject, with a view to the publication of that report, The Hon. E. RICHARDSON paid a larife number of reports had been received on the subject, and if fche hon. member did not think

sufficient information was to be found in them he would cause a further report to be prepared. If the hon. gentleman would look through the papers and take out what was interesting he would have that portion published. Replying to Mr M. J. S. Mackenzie, ii! the Postmaster-general will now carry into effect a promise made last session, that as soon as the Palmerston-Waihemo railway was completed a telephone-station would be established at Macraes, Sir JULIUS VOGEL said he would have the work done as soon as possible Replying to Mr Macarthur, The Hon. R. STOUT said a bill would be introduced in the Upper House to amend tho law in the direction of allowiug borough councillors to supply goods across tho counter in the ordinary way of business to borough authorities. WAIMRA PLAINS lUILWAY HATH. The Hon. E. RICHARDSON mtvo-lnced a bill to make provision for the rectification of rate on the Waimea Plains railway. IN COMMITTEE. The House went into committee on the Local Bodies Finance and Powers Bill, Major ATKINSON asked the Premier if he would not move that the chairman leavu the chair and have done with this bill, lie thought the Government could very well put six months subsidies on the Estimates, which would settle the whole matter. He said there was no" possible 'excuse for going on with fche bill. Ho moved that the chairman leave the chair. Sir JULIUS VOGEL said the House should decide upon this matter. If they were to go on borrowing in this way for roads and bridges they could not go on with the railways of the country in a satisfactory manner. He waa not altogether satisfied with the present bill, but it was an instalment towards some system of a definite character. Since abolition country districts had fluctuated under various systems till it culminated in the Roads and Bridges Construction Act ; and if the Government did nothing moce while they continued in office than rop'jal [ this Act they would have done something for the country. It was simply proposed now to take a subsidy for the half-year, leaving further consideration of the question over till ucxt session. The broad object of the policy of the Government was to restrict borrowing, and to have the finances in such a position that tin; railway policy of the country might bo pursued to advantage. He said if the ,bill wi-re not passed it would be tho duty of the Government to consider whether they should not have recourse to some larger bodies, which would relieve the House of some of the responsibility now attached to it. Major ATKINSON said a great deal had [ been heard about the Roads and Bridges | Construction Bill, but he contended that those hon. gentlemen who were loudest in its condemnation knew very little of the working of that act. He was glad to hear the Treasurer had learnt something during the session. The Opposition at a7iy rate had endeavoured to teach him. He had never known the Treasurer able to secure a majority unless by introducing mischevious legislation. He (Sir Julius Vogel) had told the House that they should have to go back to provincialism, but people would never tolerate a re! urn to that form of government. He said if the GovernI niont had fulfilled their 'promises and brought j down a comprehensive system of local government, to give proper relief to local bodies, they would have fround him (Major Atkinson) and many other Opposition members supporting them in giving effect to it. He was prepared to admit the Roads and Bridges Construction Act required some amendment, but he was nob prepared to assist the Government in passing the present act. Sir JULIUS VOGEL asked whether the Roads and Bridges Construction Act had not been a most painful failure. He also contended it was essentially a borrowing bill. He explained that the reason why such a large number of clauses were withdrawn from the bill was because those .clauses referred to borrowing on subsidies, 'which provision had been struck out of the bill, Hon. R. STOUT contended it was an act for the distribution of borrowed money. He said the further effect of it was a premium for the creation of small local bodies. As for subsidies to roads and bridges, these would have to cease, but something else would have to ha devised in their stead. .He agreed thoy must not have the strain of local taxation too heavy, and in asking the House to pass the present bill the Government had considered thafc view. He admitted the subsidy system was fair in one point of view, and he also agreed that it was not wise to have another revolution in our local government system. The Counties Bill would ptfss the Upper House, as it was brought in to meet some existing defects. No one could say the Roads and Bridges Construction Act was working well, and that was the reason why the Government asked the House to pass the bill now before them. They should next session have to come down with another bill, which he hoped would meet the requirements of the country in the direction of local government. He would not say for a moment that the bill was perfect, but it was only brought in as a temporary measure to provide relief till next ypjir. Mr HURST defended the Roads and Bridges Construction Act, and contended that with a little amendment the act could be maclo to answer all requirements. Mr DUNCAN thought the member for Waitemata knew nothing about the Roads and Bridges Construction Act, or he would not have spoken as he had done. Maior ATKINSON said he had understood that the Government proposed to go' into supply. He therefore asked leave to withdraw his amendment that the chairman leave the chair. The Hon. R. STOUT suggested they should go on a little further. Major ATKINSON hoped the Government would not press this bill at that moment, since a discussion was certain. The Hon. R. STOUT asked that the committee should go on a little further. After a brief discussion Major ATKINSON withdrew his amendment, and the bill was proceeded with. A number of clauses were struck out on the voices, and progress was reported, SEPARATION. On thp motion to go into supply, Mr MACANDREW brought forward his resolution asking for a Royal Commission to consider whether some form of one or more provincial legislatures for each Island was desirable. Captain RUSSELL moved a further amendment to the effect that in the opinion of the ITouso ib is desirable that tho public works expenditure be reduced by a sum of not less than £500,000. He disclaimed any party spirit in making the motion, and said he should not go into siny details. He did not blame the present Oovumnipnt any more than tho late Government for the present position of the Colony, but he considered that the Colonial Treasurer when jn 1876 he had brought down his Public

Works scheme, was the Frankenstein of the Colony. He held that the House ought to endeavour at once to reduce or do away with borrowing. His only object was to put the Government in tho position of having to reduce their expenditure by the amount he mentioned in his amendment. With regard to insular separation, he did not think it was ad- \ isable, and as perhaps the oldest colonist in the House he strongly disapproved of that proposal. He pointed out the largo reduction which had taken place in the railway returns, which was now moro than 1 per cent, less than it was ]4 years ago. One good thing in the reduction of. borrowing would be that porperty would come to its proper value. He pointed to the late fall of the wool market, and asked whether, in view of all these facts it was not advisable that they should reduce their expenditure until a more successful season. It lwd not been .shown, he contended, that any of the large works proposed were necessary. He wished to avoid the question of the East and West Coast railway, but he would like to direct the attention of hon. members to the report of the Royal Commission on that line. It was even an open question whether on that line produce could bo brought to the markets cheaper than otherwise. He had fixed the amount of reduction at £500,000, because he urged hon. members to act as they thought best for the Colony. The Hon. E. RICHARDSON submitted that the hon. gentleman should state where he proposed the reduction. Captain RUSSELL replied that he left that entirely to the discretion of Ministers. The Hon. E. RICHARDSON said the liabilities on the Ist Auguat last were £1,912.000, and it should be remembered that many of these liabilities extended over a period of two or three years. The expenditure for the year, it was anticipated, would bo within a million and a-ijuarter. I? the vote was reduced as suggested, it would mean a decrease in roads and in public buildings. Considerable reductions might be made in the Railway Estimates on various lines to the extent of about £100,000. If tho motion of the hon. member was carried, the vote for roads must also share in the reductions, which would also have to bo made in various other votes. He pointed out that the effects of such a motion as that of tho hon: member being carried, would, be very disastrous. He failed to understand the position of the hon. member who expressed an opinion that the Government should not take such a motion as this as a hostile vote.

Mr WAKEFIELD said if this resolution were carried by the House it would be one of the best steps that had been taken for some years, and would have a tendency greatly to reduce the depression now existing. The Minister of Public Works had opposed the motion after demonstrating that it would be carried into effect. He held that the only way to save the country from very grave financial difficulty was by passing such a motion as this, and this motion would not affect the labour question. It would simply mean that no new works were to be undertaken. The working men were beginuiug now to understand that this borrowing policy was not one which would advance their interests, and he would support, tho motion however unpopular it might make him. He •hoped the motion would be carried.

Replying to Mr Karr, The Hon. E. RICHARDSON said Lbu Government, if this vote was carried, must not incur any fresh liabilities this year.

Mr Macandrew's motion was put and lost on the voices.

On the question that Captain Russell's amendment be carried,

Major ATKINSON said he was glad to hear the Minister say that the Government was prepared to accept the motion. The Hon. E. RICHARDSON said he had indicated the direction in which reductions could be made, and if the motion was carried he would move to that end.

The Hon. R. STOUT said the Government were not going to support the reductions. They would vote against them.

Maior ATKINSON pointed out that unless the House was prepared to borrow a large sum they could not let any more new contracts, because the Minister had told them that the liabilities on the Ist of August last were £1,912,000. It appeared from the statement of the Minister that the liabilities incurred during last month were about £400,000. [An explanation was made by the Minister for Public Works, in consequence of which Major Atkinson said the amount then was £150,000 or £200,000.] He would ask the House whether it was justified in voting £2,600,000 when it had £2,000,000 in hand, and he replied that in view of the liabilities now incurred by the Government this request was a most reasonable one. He hoped Ministers would at once accept the motion in the spirit in which it had been moved.

The Hon. R. STOUT said that if the hon. member meant that the Government were to take back their Estimates, then he would say at once that they would not do it. Thai was plain. If the House wished to instruct the Committee of Supply to reduce the Estimates. of course tho committee would be at liberty to alter tho Estimates. If the motion was carried, it would mean a reduction in expenditure on several lines of railway, and it would also mean that new buildings such as the new customs house, at Auckland, and Government printing office, Wellington, would have to be delayed. Mr BRYCE drew attention to the discrepancy in the statements of the Premier and Minister of Public Works.

Mr MONTGOMERY considered that if the motion was carried the Government should indicate whpve the alterations were to be made.

Mr MOSS said he had also an amendment to move. The motion had taken the House by surprise, and it was calculated, he believed, to intensify the depression already existing. He asked whether hon. members were prepared to spe the erection of school buildings stopped. He moved his amendment to the effect that the Estimates having been passed there should be no reduction this session in the works already in progress, but that the Government be-requested to prepare measures during the recess to be submitted to the next session.

Mr O'CONOR thought the position taken up by the Minister of Public Works was an intelligent one, and the only one, in fact, that he could take_ up. If they were to have those reductions, then why not at once declare that the reduction should take place all over the Colony. The House, if desirous of retrenchment, should have commenced at the beginning, and reduced the Estimates. He deprecated hon. members working together in blocks when such questions as this came up. He opposed the motion. This was not a time, he contended, to shut out the working man, and if there was a reduction it should be in new works which, it was shown, were not absolutely necessary.

Mr HATCH contended that a large saving might be effected in the system of Government in the Colony, especially in the Railway De-

partment. He thought, however, that the proposal to make such large reductions as was proposed by the amendment would bo very disastrous. Mr SMITH regretted that the member for Hawke's Bay should have been persuaded to move the amendment, and he did not show the committee how the savings were to be* effected, lie thought the resolution, if carried, would result in cheap labour from the stoppage of public works. Mr PYKE said some members appeared to be under a complete misapprehension as to the effect of the amendment. It was well known that votes could not be stopped for works already under contract without involving the Government in heavy damages. He defended the Otago Central line as an important Colonial work. He thought the member for Hawke's Bay, by his amendment, threw into the hands of the Government the power to punish political opponents-, and that was all that would be gained by it. He should vote strongly against the amendment, and he hoped it would be withdrawn. Mr HOLMES said he should vote for the amendment before the House, but on different grounds from those advanced by the member for Hawke's Bay. He quoted from returns to show that the returns from the Canterbury railway lines were 6 per cent., while the returns from the Otago lines were less thad 3 per cent. He believed that the Otago Central line should bo made side by side with the East and West Coast lino and the North Island line. He should not vote for the resolution if it meant throwing a large number of people oiit of employment ; but he had the assurance of the member i'or Egmont that such result would not follow the passing of the resolution, and that hon. gentleman was better informed on that subject than any other member of the Opposition. Mr J. W. THOMSON said the Government had taken up an extraordinary position on this resolution. He contended that after the statement of the Minister of Public Works the Government should have reduced the Estimates themselves and not have loft it to, private mcmi bers to propose. He was in considerable doubt as to how he should vote on the amendment. Mr DONALD REID felt satisfied that there was a universal feeling throughout the Colony that in the matter of borrowing the Colony had got to the end of its tether. He contended that the borrowing should keep pace with our population. He sympathised with the amendment, and hoped there would be an end to borrowing except for absolutely necessary .•vl: I*.1 *. He was opposed to the East ami Wost Coast railway, and also to the NoIIH Island Trunk line, but he thought the Otago Central line should be constructed up to a certain point. He should be in favour of borrowing money for the completion of works already in progress, and should vote against the amendment, as he considered the passing of it would mean the stoppage of works already in progress. Mr BUCHANAN moved the adjournment of the debate, which was agreed to. The House rose at 12.40.