HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES. Thursday, 29th July.

Otago Witness, Issue 1499, 7 August 1880, Page 12

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES. Thursday, 29th July.

In reply to Mr Masters, The Hon. Mr OLIVER said the Government recognised the importance of the matter, and next session would introduce a bill to amend "The Regulation of Mines Act, 1874," to provide for the i>sue within the Colony of certificates of con: potency as managers of coalmines to (hose persons who are anxious to pass examination to prove their fitness to hold such positions. The preference shown by coalowners to appoint certificated managers only placed at a great disadvantage those who are thoroughly competent and cannot now obtain certificates in the Colony.

CHINESE IMMIGRATION BILL. Mr HUTCHISON moved the second reading of the Chinese Immigration Bill. The Hon. Major ATKINSON said the Government was in communication with other Colonies with a view of concerting in joint action on. the subject. He hoped that would be sufficient to justify the withdrawal of the bill, which was a measure which ought to be taken in hand by the Government. Mr HUTCHISON said he would be content to take the fate of the bill on the voices. The motion that the Speaker leave the chair was negatived, and the bill was accordingly withdrawn. MINING COMPANIES AOT AMENDMENT BILL. Mr REEVES moved the second reading of the Mining Companies Act, 1872, Amendment Bill. The motion was agreed to, and the bill ordered to go before the Goldfields Committee. OTAGO RIVEBS BILL. On the motion of Mr FULTON, TheOkago Rivera Bill was committed, and reported with amendment, read a second time, and passed. N.Z. UNIVERSITY AND UNIVERSITY COLLEGES BILL. Mr TOLE moved the committal of the New Zealand University and University Colleges Bill, and explained its provisions. The Hon., Mr ROLLESTON said the bill proposed one expenditure the Colony could not afford. With the principle of the bill he fully agreed. He would support the bill going into Committee, but no further, The House then went into Committee. Sir G. M. O'RORKE expressed surprise that no notice had been taken by the Government of the recommendations by the Commission on Higher Education. He had seen the advantage the South Island obtained from its University, and he earnestly desired to desired to see the North Island enjoy similar advantages. After making every poasible allowance for the straightened circumstances of the Colony. He hoped the Government would make the concession sought for in the cause of higher education in the North Island. Whatever the issue might be, he felt sure that the present state of matters in the North Island would not be tolerated much longer. On clause 2 being proposed, Mr ROLLESTON moved that progress be reported. Sir GEORGE GREY said that their pri mary education required to be supplemented by education of a higher order. He believed that with the eatabl'Bhm^nt of four colleges in New Zealand, all teaching different branches of educati m and science, they would turn out men of varied knowledge and attainments. He woulilike to see one established, say, at Taranaki, and one on the West Coast of the Middle Island. At Otago and Ohriatchurch the colleges were established by public funds, and he did not see any excuse would avail for not giving similar concession to the North. He would say, take the fundß from some endowments in the Middle Island if no other means could be found. The North had as good a right to a higher education as the South. He did not think that bo very expensive buildings were required. It was intellect that constituted a college, not gaudy buildings. The points relating to the constitution of universities might very well stand over for a year. He would give the fullest and freeßt scope for the selection of a chancellor. He objected to the narrowing down of the se. lection proposed by the bill. He hoped the Government would go so far as to acknowledge the importance of these establishments for this Mand. He hoped tha wisdom that guided the South in securing these advantages would guide them in securing similar benefits for the North Island. Mr MONTGOMERY agreed with what had been said as to the desirability of the establishment of colleges in the North Island. Temporary buildings might be secured to make a start in. He could testify to the advantage secured to the South Island from its colleges, and he would like very much to see a similar advantage secured for the North Island. He did not agree in the proposal to take funds from the South for the purposes of the North. He could assure them that the South had too little for their own purposes. He would have liked to have heard it said rather that the funds necessary ffor the North should be taken out of Colonial revenues, and he trusted that the Treasurer would see his way to provide the necessary funds for the purpose proposed. Mr MAOANDREW said that the bill proposed to spend' L 30.000 on buildings and LB,OOO per annum on professors. That was more than the Colony could at present afford. The North could if it liked take advantage of the South Island Universities. On the principle put forward by those who objected to such an arrangement, it might be urged that universities should be established in other places than those named, in fact in every town. He stated at the time of the proposal for establishing these universities at the cost of the South Mand that there were valuable endowments in the North Island. They might be devoted to this purpose, at all event 9 to the purpose of establishing at least one university in the meantime. It was manifestly unfair that Otago, where they had sold their land at LI and L 2 per acre, should be made to bear the cost of places that had parted with their lands at 53 per acre. Mr BOWEN agreed that it was necessary that means should be devised for establishing a pyßtem of university education all over New Zealand. It was not to be expected that sons of settlers in the North could go to Dunedin or even Chrißtchurch. They might just as well be expected to po to England at once. He recognised the difficulty that surrounded the question at present. The funds were not available, but something might be done towards improving higher education in the North. The first degree taken by a lady in New Zealand was taken by one educated in England. Mr MOORHOUSE said, if education or religion were worth having, they ought to be paid for by those getting them. The public ought to recognise the duty of maintaining both its religious and educational institutions without making them a charge on the State. Reasonable justice would be done to the North Island if they were provided with buildings, but beyond that he would not go. All endowments of this descriptions he would reserve for the State, and if necessary dispose of them in relief of public burdens. He did not helieve in endowments. The best way was to sell them, pay their debts, ' and make the public pay for those and other advantage?. Colonel TRIMBLE said they must recognise the fact that these endowments were Colonial, and not made for mere provisional purposes. Still he would deprecate the suggestion made for appropriating the South'^ endowments for the North Island's purposes. Mr HURST was afraid the Colony was in danger of falling into the extreme of over-edu-cating. The result was the proftsaional walks euch as those of barrister, &c , were being crowded to tho detriment of other pursuits more directly of a reproductive character Mr MOSS cautioned them against the superficial style of education followed out in some of the Colonial universities.

Sir G, M. O'RORKE disclaimed any intention of appropriating South Island

endowments for North Island purposes. What he desired was to see similar provision made for the North as existed in the South. The motion for reporting progress was carried. Friday, 30th July. The House met at 2 30. COUNTIES ACT AMENDMENT BILL. The PREMIER moved the second reading of the Counties Act Amendment Bill. Referring to the clause providing that in the case of counties where the Act is not in operation the Governor is empowered to exercise the functions of the Council, he said there might be a difference of opinion, andif he found a majority against that proposal he would be prepared to forego it. The motion was carried, and the bill ordered to be committed presently. BABBIT NUISANCE BILL. The Hon. Mr HALL moved the second reading of the Rabbit Nuisance Bill. He said the nuisance was becoming a formidable one, not less than 500,000 acres of land having been abandoned in consequence thereof. Tne bill was similar to the one now in existence, with the addition of a few clauaes which subsequent experience had Bhown desirable. Mr SEYMOUR asked that, as the bill involved the question of taxation, it should be postponed. This was a consolidation of a variety of measures for dealing with the nuisance in different parts in New Zealand, and as such it was of importance that it should be con* sidered by a full House. Mr BAIN endorsed the remarks of the previous speaker, stating that he expected representations on the subject from Southland. Sir GEORGE GREY concurred, and moved that the second reading be postponed. The Hon. Mr HALL consented to the postponement. OTHEB BILLS. The following bills were read a second time : —Banks and Bankers Bill, Bills of Exchange Bill, Mercantile Law Amendment Bill, Chattels Securities Bill, Building Societies Bill, Animals Protection Bill, Married Women's Property Protection Bill, Aliens' Marriage Bill, Juries Bill, Cruelty to Animals Bill, Deaths by Accident Compensation Bill, Adulteration Prevention Bill, Thames Water Supply Transfer Bill, Fisheries Bill. The above bills, with the exception of the two last-mentioned, were considered in Committe, read a third time, and passed ; as also the Census Bill.

Monday, 2nd August. new bills. On the motion of the Hon. Major ATKINSON, a bill to amend the Property Assessment Act, 1879, was introduced and read a first time. NATIVE LAND BILL. The Hon. Mr BRYCE moved the second reading of the Native Land Bill. The bill was framed with a view of rendering the proceedings less costly and cumbersome than at present Prior to the passing of the present Act in 1873 the ooet of the Court was L 5467, while the revenue amounted to L 7252, Since then the position of affairs had been reversed. Within the last two months the cost of the Court had been L 8596, while the revenue was not more than L 3292. The object of the present bill was in a great measure to return to the practice in foroe prior to the passing of the Act of 1873. Another object of the bill was to enable the Government to advance sums to Natives for the purpose of making surveys, irrespective of the strict question of title alto* gether, as the Governmeut looked upon the ascertaining of the title as an important step towards settlement. The Court would, as far as possible, be removed from the influence of the Government, and would offer increased inducements for Natives to take advantage of the provisions. Mr TOMOANA looked upon the bill aa an improvement on the present Act. Still, it would stand further improvements, which he hoped to see supplied in Committee. Mr TAWHAI also concurred in the idea that the bill was an improvement on the ono now in operation. Sir W. FOX thought the bill went in the right direction, but suggested that further powers should be conferred on the Court with reference to lawyers and agents engaged by Natives in their case 3. He instanced enormous bills of costs rendered by these persons which had come under his notice, and strongly advocated the necessity for a check being provided on such extortionate charges. Mr READER WOOD supported the bill, but stated that he would oppose the Native Lands Sales Bill, and proposed to move a relution on the subject in reference to direct purchases. Sir GEORGE GREY spoke in opposition to the bill, as also did Mr De Lautour. Mr THOMSON abo opposed the bill, stating that it was a well-known fact that members of the present Government had been hrgely mixed up in Native land transactions. The Hon. Mr ROLLESTON denied the statement. Mr THOMSON reiterated the statement that one member of the Government had been mixed up in pvich transactions. The Hon. Mr ROLLESTON again objected, and rose to a point of order, which the Speaker overruled. Mr THOMSON continued to say that he was surprised the hon. member was so vehement in his protestations. Perhaps it arose from the fact that the cap fitted him. He concluded by again repeating that the bill was an objectionable one. Mr HURST supported the bill. Mr BRYCE having replied, The motion for the second reading was carried. NATIVE LANDS COURT BILL. The House then went into Committee on the Native Lands Court Bill. MAJOR TE WHEORO moved the insertion of an additional clause in the bill to the effect that before any case went into the Native Land Court it should be submitted to a Native committee appointed for the purpose. The Native members opposed the amendment on theground that it would lead to very great confusion. At 1.15 a.m. the discussion was proceeding.l Monday, 2nd August. new bills. Mr PYKE moved for leave to introduce a bill to amend the Education Act, 1877 ; The motion was carried on the voices, and the bill read a first time. The following were also introduced and read a first time :— A bill to permit the Boroughs of Caversham, South Dunedin, and St. Kilda to amalgamate (Mr Barron) ; the Miscellaneous Native Claims Bill (Mr Bryce). PUBLIC WOKKS STATEMENT. The Hon. Mr HALL said tho Public Works Statement would be brought down to-morrow evening They would then go on with the Public Works Estimates, and having got them through, the Government would state what bills they meant to pass and what they meant to withdraw. When the House rose he would ask leave to sit to-morrow morning atß 11 o'clock, '

Evening Sitting. The House resumed at 7.30. NATIVE LAND COURTS BILL. The Native Land Courts Bill was further co»«idered in Committee. Olausa 47, providing that Natives aggrieved may apply for rehearing within six months, was altered to three months on a division by 23 to 44 Colonel TRIMBLE moved an addition to clause 49, empowering the Court to tax bills of coats incurred in connection with theae proceedings, similar to the power exercised by the SuDreme Court. ... , Sir W. TOX would go a step further, and make it an absolute penal offence for any land ascent or solicitor to take more than the amount allowed by the Court. It was no uncommon thing for arrangements beforehand to be made for a lump sma, and Maori chiefs in some cases were co very honourable that they would pay these exorbitant sums rather than appear to break their word. Toe clause as amended was carried.. On clause 64, Mr BO WEN moved that the •* clause read "that no person be allowed to sell BPirituous or fermented liquors," &c., instead, ot making their sale optional at the discretion of In" support of the clause as printed, Mr SHEEHAN said he had just come from an attendance of two months at one of these ceurts, and he could say from observation that if the hotel had been shut the work-would have • been gone through in half the time. At ; tne solicitation of a number of persons he had been instrumental in getting the hotel closed for nine days, and more work was got through in one day than had been got through in the rest of the time. Still it was necessary that the closing should be optional in the bauds ° It was* moved these Courts should have the powers accorded to Licensing Courts. The last-named motion was earned, and the clause as amended passed. ««j mta a The remainder of the bill passed as printed.

Wednesday, 4th August, beplies to questions, In reply to Mr Murray, The Hon. Mr HALL said the Government would be glad to receive any information reearding the provisions of the Homestead laws of the United States; for seourmg to a limited extent freedom from distraint for debt ; also concerning liens and bills, the working of the National Bank system, the patent laws, and registration of titles to land there. In reply to Mr Riohmond, Mr BRYOE Baid the Government thought it might be possible to establish some system of rural police at a comparatively low rate of pay in Buch country dißtriots where it has been fonnd necessary, with a view of retrenchment, to remove the police of the regular foroe formerly stationed there, so that life and, property may have some protection. In reply to Mr Finn, The Hon. Mr DICK said the Government did not think it was expedient to add to the\ Licensing Bill, before the House, provisions enabling persons feeling aggrieve* by the deoision of the Licensing Benobjto appeal from such' decision, such appeal to be heard by a board to be eleoted annually by the ratepayers in each licensing district, and to be called the Licensing Appeal Board. In reply to Mr Finn, , , The Hon. Mr ROLLEBTON said the land opened for settlement in the Lake County had not yet been ali taken up for settlement, and nntil that was done they did not see the necessity for further blocks being opened. In reply to Mr J. B. Fisher. The Hon. Major ATKINSON said that in speaking for himself he had no hesitation in saying that he thought persons holding policies in the Government Assurance Office, and dying between the closing of the books and the declaration of the bonus, should be allowed to participate, and that the whole system of Government annuities was about being overhauled by competent actuaries, whose report on the subject would be taken into consideration in due time. In reply to Mr Reid, The Hon. Mr ROLLESTON said the ques-. tion of subsidising free public libraries was a luxury they would have to dispense with in the meantime. In reply to Mr Shanks, The Hon. Mr HALL said the Government would be prepared to defray its share of the expense of abating the rabbit nuisance upon Government reserves and land not leased. In reply to Mr Gisborne, The Hon. Mr OLIVER said Government offices and property were insured, tha insuranceß being fairly distributed amongßt Colonial offices in New Zealand. The amount on Government House was LIO.OOOj departmental offices, L 20,000; Parliament buildings, L 20.00 0; library and books, LSOOO j printingoffices, L2OOO. NATIVE LAND SALES BILL. The Hon. Mr BRYCE moved that the House go into Committee on the Native Land Sales Bill. Mr READER WOOD thereupon moved as an amendment— " That no system of Native land sales will be satisfactory to this House which does not confer upon the Natives named in the certificate of title obtained from the Native Land Court absolute power to dispose in the open market, by sale, lease, or otherwise of the lands described in such certificate, without any Government interference." On the motion of the Hon. Mr BRYOE the bill was postponed, in order to admit of the Native Land Sales Bill being considered in Committee. On tbe motion for going into Committee, Mr R. WOOD moved the motion standing in his name, saying that he never had anything to do with the purchase or acquisition, either by himaeH or others, of Native lands. The bill proposed an entirely new principle in dealing with th«se lands. The curious thing was that in introducing the bill Ministers had not given any reason why this bill should be carried. They had given no information whatever on that score. A great deal had been said against the bilL The Native members were all opposed to it. He believed it would interfere with the prosperity of the North Island, and do a cruel wrong to the Natives themselves. The j Government had said the preaent system was full of evils, and illustrated that argument by ■ circumstances which had nothing to do with the Native land purchases. He reviewed the remarks made by the Native Minister in moving the second reading of the bill. His whole remarks referred to the land-purchase system of the Government itself. The Government rejected free trade in Maori land, and said that the only other alternative was the bill before the Houße. But the grand secret was a feeling on the part of the Natives that when they parted with their lands they had nothing to show for the land they had parted with. That was, in his opinion, ft great secret ring movement. The Act of 1865 had been referred to. Under that Act a large area of land passed through the Court.- In 1873 the law was again altered for the worse. Natives and Europeans had not been allowed to come together and settle their own affairs, and the real cause was the interference of the Government, He would ask if the Native

was not in every respect equal to the European, with the exception of acquired knowledge and the wretched varnish which distinguished the latter. Put the two, man for man, together, and they found the one was quite a match for the other. He believed the Government should have nothing to do with the purchase of laud, and have no interference in the matter. Having once got his certificate of title, the Government had no more right to interfere with his land than they had to interfere with European land. Holding these views, he could not support the bill now before the House. It recognised land to belong to Natives, and debarred them from using it in their own way. The charges provided for were most exorbitant, and otherwise the evil was aggravated. It had been said that their lands would come into the hands of large landholders, but he had to remind them that Natives had the same means of cutting up their properties into small sections as Europeans had. He did not believe the Natives would avail themselveß of this bill. What he advocated was a single clause that the lands of both Europeans and Natives should be subjected to the operation of one and the same law. In all probability there would be a large exodus from EDgland of men capable of paying for land, and yet at Buch a time they were doing their very best to shut up this large landed estate. Mr TOMOANA supported the amendment, stating that the bill »"3 printed would be the cauße of great trouble hereafter. The Native mind would be so much inflamed at the bill that there was no saying what they might do. He complained about the exorbitant charges, stating that if the land realised LIOOO at least LSOO would go in charges. Mr Reader Wood's amendment was put after a discussion and negatived, and the House went into Committee on the bill. Clause 1 was agreed to. The Hon. Mr BRYCE moved that progress be reported. Mr HAMLTN protested against the bill, and moved—" That the Chairman leave the ohair." He afterwards withdrew the motion.

Progress was reported, and the House rose at 12.15.