HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES.

Otago Witness, Issue 920, 17 July 1869, Page 5

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES.

BBPRE3ENTATION ACIT'AMBNI)MBNT BILT*. , Mr Stafford; in moving for leave 'to bringiin a Bill intituled- "An Aot> to- makefurther provision for. the : Representation 'of the people of New Zealand, in Parliament," said that tho time at whioh he rose to address the House prevented him fromfdoing more than calling the attention of the House to the admitted necessity! of ' making further and better arrangements for the representation of the people of New Zealand than at present obtained, in consequencO of the very largo alterations in the condition of the different 1 districts; and the interests which had grown up since the passing of the last measure for the general representation of the people in 1860 ; for although there was a partial redistribution in 1865, it was confined entirely to the Middle Island, and the representation of the goldfields waa provided for, by apeoial legislation. It was unnecessary for him to point out the large alteration which had taken place in the distribution of the population since 1860, mainly, and to a large extent, in consequence of gold being .found in such quantities as to attwob large populations to work it, but alsom consequence of the general . progress made in the development- of new districts, which had been opened up by means of roads and public works, which had led ty) the | settlement of districts whioh in 1860 were not populated. These oircumatanoes were so well known and vo frequently commented on, that it was scarcely necessary to allude to them ; and in proposing any such measure as the one now under consideration, it was only necessary to say that they could not afford to leave out the large question of who contributed the revenue from their considers- j tion. Admitting to the fullest extent the justice of what bad become a maxim with .Englishmen—that there should be no taxation without 'representation— they could not afford to overlook the fact that a large proportion of the revenue of the country, and a still greater proportion of the exports, which were the means of interchange with other countries, were the result of the labours of a special class in New Zealand ; and holding that opinion, they thought that the representation of the country, especially in its f resent state, should recognise that class, t would bo his duty, when the meawas more fully before the House, to go more into details than the few minutes now at hia disposal allowed him ; but he might say it was the intention of the Government, if leave were now given to introduce the Bill, to comedown with a, resolution to determine what the maximum number of members should be ; for he was perfectly aware that unless that step was taken, and some preliminary decision arrived at, a long controversy would take place in Committee in reference to how many members the future Houso Bhould be composed of. He would, therefore, propose, on an early opportunity, to submit a specific resolution to determine the maximum number of members who should represent the people of New Zealand in that Houso. Mr Dillon Bell asked the honourable member introducing the Bill to consider that when tho reconstruction of the representation was made in 1860, a question had arisen which afterwards led to a desire, so strongly expressed by the other branch of the Legislature, to make some relation between the numbers of members in eaoh House. Ho rejoiced to bear that the hon. membor was going to propose a limit to the number of members ; out in any reconstruction of tho representation, they ought at the same time, particularly if any measure was brought in to diminioh the number of members in the House, to provide for there being in future a fair proportion between the members in tho two Houses. He did not know whether the honourable member had considered this ; but he hoped he would not be thought impertinent in directing his attention to it. Mr o'Nsu.l hoped the honourable member introducing the measure would have a due regard for tho mining population ; the exports of gold alone amounted to more than half of the whole exports of the colony. Mr Btakkord replied that the Government had not contemplated, in thin Bill, introducing any such provision with respeofc to the Legislative Counoil as tho honourable member for Mataara referred to. The Bill would not bo doalt with altogether by this House, but would be largely interesting to the other House, and a disagreement as to provisions affecting the Legislative Counoll, if introduced into it, might lead to the loss of the mil Mrßn.ir-1 was referring to the preliminary step— the resolution. Mr Stafford said, although it had not occurred to the Government to make such a proposal, ho thought it might perhaps be m*do with advant»ge, but it ought to oe made after sorao consultation with the other branoh of the legislature. Though not officially informed of the fafjf; he might nay that he understood that the other House had under its oonsldoration some proposition with respect to the constitution of the, CounoH. Leave wm granted, and Mr Stafford and Mr Hall were ordered to prepare the Bill, and bring it in. OTAOO BBTTLBMBNTB HI LI/, Mr Maoandrrw, in moving for loavo to introduce a BiU to enable the Superintendent of the Provinoo of Otago to establish oertata settlements to* oolonisttlon in the said pro* riooc, said it would, perhaps, be reoolUcUd by«a»yhMKmr»We wm&m, that th* Bill

paßsed7intither,-Hottse, I thrpugb»aU l itß^|agja last^sessidnA^bntd^aSiaWPpitotttj^wffl^ Legislative iCounoiL, ,'^The pbjeofc $f JWeJJiU was to enable.' therSuperintendentj.nd'EiiJK .vincial Council of rtQtago-to ,make*oertain ( settlements,, on f; the f «Weat* Coast, of <the pro- . tvinoe. .They, were t aware ;.that lT thef present land regulations s didnot admit of land being sold! in any part of that province under 20s an aore,» a price prevented, any settlement that, could possibly take plaee^ on the West Coast of the province. , He coiisidered that he was justified in Baying that, had the power which they now soughtfor.been conferred uponithem last session, they would now have been -able to congratulate the, colony on the location of Beveral hundreds of l hard-working, and industrious i Bottlers, especially from Nova Scotia and North America. They would- have - formed the nuoleus of two' important settlements, the one at Preservation Inlet and the other at Martin's Bay. Had, that Bill become, law, Beveral ohiploada of immigrants would, have come irom Nova Scotia, and been, located in those settlements. He trusted, .therefore, that the House would assent to the, Bill, and that when it reached the other branoh of the Legislature , the Government would, assume tho- paternity of it j in, which case, probably, it would meet, with a rent reception in the Legislative Counoil from that given to.it last session. He was convinced that it was a step in the right direction, and that it would lead to very important results. Without occupying the time of the House, he would simply ask leave to introduce the Bill, , in terms of the motion standing in his name. Leave was granted. Mr Maoandrew -and. Mr Barnß were ordered to prepare the Bill, which was brought in, read a first time, ordered to be printed, and the second reading fixed for Thursday. . EMPLOYMENT OJf FRIENDLY NATIVES IN THE ' FIELD.

Mr Collins said his objeob in brinping forward the motion which stood in his name, was to obtain an enquiry into the working of the present system of engaging friendly natives. He vu led to seek the enquiry from information he had received from * high authority in matters connected with the management of the war. He had been informed that of the natives at present receiving Government pay, little more than onehalf were of any actual service in the field; that the remainder consisted of old men, who never left the otmps, and young lads who were unable to carry muskets. It happened that those men brought about with them a number of women, who < recived Qovern■ment rations, and who would be a great cause of delay in operations in the field. Those were some of the results of the present system. Another, and in his opinion, still more serious result from the system, was the faot of the Natives being entirely, he might say, under the influence of their own chiefs. If a chief was indisposed to fight on a particular day, either from illness, or bad weather, or from evil auguries, which were very common, in the shape of dreams, or from other causes, the result was that all the men were idle, drawing pay and doing no good. Such an acoident might have the effect of frustrating any well-made plan of operation, and of upsetting the arrangements of the Commander- in-Chief. The proper plan would be to enlist Natives as they did white men, and put them in the ranks of the European forces, and there should not be more than one-fourth the number of Maoris that there were Europeans. Motion made, and question proposed," "That a Select Committee be appointed to enquire into the present system of employing Friendly Natives ; such Committee to have power to call for persons and papers, and to consist of Mr JRiohmond, Major Heaphy, V.C.. Mr Graham, Mr Rich. Mr Studholine, Mr Dillon 8011, Major Brown, and the mover ; three to be a quorum ; Committee to report this day week."— (Mr Collins ) Mr Richmond did not like to oppose the honourable member in asking for a Committee which sought to obtain information ; bnt he would put it to him whother re»lly he was likely to obtain any amount of information by the Committee, which, when embodied in a report, would have a value that would really counterbalance the serious objection there would be to the publication of a report of the kind. It must not be lost sight of that in employing friendly Natives, although they were nominally employing our own follow-subjeots, they were fn roality employing what must be oal ed Native allies. They mutt look upon the question in a political point of view as well uina military aspect The Government were agreed that the objections which the honourable member made had a great deal of force in thorn—it did not need any report by a Committee to convince them of that. Tho common reports of the newspapers, wide as they were often from the troth, wero sufficiently correct to enable any ordinary reader to oome to a conclusion on that point. That thefriandly Native* wero a moat cumber, ■omo force, and. in a military son»o. much more expensive than Karopeana, thtro oould bo doubt. Tho suggestion ef the honourable membor was a very good one. that taoNatives should bo embodied with the Euroman*. Embodied in that way, and employed as part of the European ocmpwiw, «T finer toldler wm not to bo found than the Maori They are good tempered, aoUve, and enterprising, and not less boW than the Europeans. There wm no donbt^ but that tfa* honourable member had hit the right nail on the bead when he said that tfiey ioold U •mbodiid fa tb** W^fe* £n» mbodM to toot •**•** with ffct

?Buropo»ns^ oi^^preient^*«'rHe« ) i;SQOUla«y-De , .glad, s if r<( the^ponimiitea were , .not an ,-,ppinted,^' J He;' i tloughti;;ffio < ;ojk»ject i : J bf j the' ibqnburable.memb'er, had, been gained, xn draw;ing»the .attention,, of ', the Legislature to, the ,su>ject. . The^eviliWas.adniiittedj'and the remedy would.bo applied by; the .Government from time to time ao opportunity occurred. There weroftimes when its was absolutely neoessary to .rely .upon those Native allies for a ( large temporary assistance. / He did not think they would be troubled with the evils complained of much, longer, 'at all events auring- any great, period, while the suegestions of the honourable member might be acted on so long a 8 they had a force' of any kind on foot in the country. The honourable member would see that it wafc partly a political question, and one which, would be embarrassed by any report that would go really to the bottom of the matter. " Mr Dillon, Bell would like to express a more decided opinion on the matter than the Hon. the Native Minister had done, and to ask the honourable member to witndraw for the present his proposal for a Committee. He could not see that enquiry by members of the House in a question of that sort could bo productive of any good. It was a most delicate and difficult subject, as would be admitted by. any one who had had , any knowledge of dealing with the natives in times past. Their management was a difficult matter, and it was very rare that any advice that oould come from Committees of that House, consisting of men whose time had not been devoted to matters of that kind, oould be of any great benefit. On a question of employing friendly Natives in an internecine war between two races, he could not understand what good advice could be given by a, Committee, or whether the members mentioned could give it. The honourable member aßked a week's time for the report to be prepared ;bnt if he thought that wou d be sufficient time, he was lamentably mistaken ; a yea.r would be more likely to be required. Mr Fox would add his voioe to that of the honourable member for Mataura. The Committee was composed of gentlemen whose previous acquaintance with the subject would not qualify them in throwing light on it, and the enquiry would be praotically usoless. As the honourable member for Mataura had said, the question was of no delicate a nature, and depended so much on the personal influence of those in authority, that those not immediately concerned could have no conception of it ; in other respects this Committee might occasion Berious difficulty to any Government. As regarded the great bulk of the Natives, it would be impossible so to overcome their habits and prejudices as to de-tribalise them. He hoped the honourable member would withdraw the motion. Colonel Haxtltain was glad to hear the honourable members for Mataura and Rangitikei speak as they had done, and hoped the honourable member for < olhngwood would take their advice and withdraw the motion. The Government were perfectly aware of the difficulty of employing a large body of Natives, but might be seriously hampered by any decision of the Committee. The honourable member for Collingwood, in remarking on theinntility of these Natives, had somewhat ovot stated the case ; he said more than one-half were practically inefficient. Mr Collins : I said I bad been informed that a little more than one-halt wero inefficient. Colonel Hatltain : That is overstated. Tho number of boys or old men is not very great — not 5 per cent of the whole— and the women are exceedingly useful. They work for the men, and do labour for which, in an European force, thoy were obliged to detach nome of the men. It Would no doufct be more desirable to enrol a few men from different tribes, and the Government had tried to do so, but had found it impossible to procure tho number they required in that way. Motion withdrawn.

(June 17th.) BILLS OF SALE AND MORTGAGES REGISTRATION AMENDMENT BILL.

Mr Reynolds moved, For leave to bring in a Bill to amend " Tho Bills of Sale Act, 1867," and "The Mortgages of Stock Registration Act, 1868," Prior to the month of November last, it was customary for the Registrars of tho Supremo Court to allow of a general searoh in the respective registers of bills of aalo, &o. ; but in October or November tho Government oarao to the oonolusion that, in allowing such a search, the Registrars wore going beyond tho provisions of tho Acts, and in consoquonoe a oiroular was sent to tho Registrars calling their attention to the Aots. Tho remit had been that, since tho receipt of tho circular, the Fegutrars had declined to allow any general searoh of the register books, and the inconvenience felt m a consequence, in oommorcial towns espeoially, had been, very groat. Although it might be the opinion of tbo Government, acting no donht, upon legal advioo, that the Registrars did formerly go boyond tho provisions of tho Aots, yot a contrary opinion was held by many persons who woro intonated, and who hod studied tho question. Tho Bill which ho proposed to introduoa would da almost wholly declaratory as to the opinion of tho House regarding the interpretation of two olauiM, one in each of the existing Acts, The principl© of the Bill oould be more conveniently discussed on the question of tho second reading, and ho now moved for leave to in* troduoe the BilL

Mr Ham. did not know whether the House would allow this BUI to be introduced | tat II •©> be koped tly* tko

v Hopie (^qßld,^doqid^llv,'|;efaße to fallow, it to "be read A' second time. * Ar more VifcraoraiHaTy prop^wjitiori' than; that'tof the honourable member for Duaedin had no£ 'often been made to the House. At present, as he understood the law. if a personwtio was about to have dealings with a particular ihdiviHtUr wisbSd to» know whether ,th«J stobk-iu-trade'or other property was'under a bill of sale or mortgage, he could go and search the register, 1 Bo' »■ to satisfy himeelf. He (Mr Hall) thought that that was all that should be -allowed 5 that it should not be permitted to any man, from, mere curiosity, or' without being able to show the existence of a necessity, to search through, the whole of the* documents in a Beeistrars Office. ; If this proposed Bill , should get into Committee, with any chance whatever of being passed, he would certainly move , the addition of a clause to compel bankers to publish regularly a statement of the balances of their customers. . He thought it quite as important that these balances should be known as that there should be freedom, to hunt through all bills of sale and mortgages. 1 Major Brown thought that what worked well in other countries would work we.l in New Zealand. If a merchant was obliged to ask a customer whether he had given a bill of sale over his stock or property, it would not be placing the merchant in a fair position; but the combinations amongst merchants, in England, certainly, to obtain such information ■ generally as to their customers, were fair, and he believed that they worked well. He saw no objection to the proposed Bill. To talk of publishing the amounts of balances at the banks was a totally different thing ; for if a man got into difficulties, any balance at his banker's became an asset, and belonged, to his creditors,

Mr Dillon Bell said that the honourable member who had just spoken seemed to have lost sight of the true principle whioh was involved. What, undoubtedly, a merchant was entitled to, was, that the law - should give him the greatest security possible that, if he was trading with A, he should be able to discover whether A had taken him out of the position he would otherwise be in with other creditors, by giving a prior security over his property to anybody else. That, a" merohant was not only entitled to, but he now had it. But that a merohant should obtain such information with regard to people with whom he had no trading relation whatever, and should he enabled to make public statements of people's affairs with whom he had nothing to do, appeared to him (Mr Bell) to be essentially unjust Not only so, but as a matter of security to i merohants, in their commercial transactions, !it would t-e infiuitely better to be able to ascertain the weekly fttate of the bank discounts. Without mentioning the names of places, persons, or banks he cou'd itato that he had heard of an instance in which discount to the extent of 160,000, and an open overdraft to the extent of JA^MO, were allowed to the same person. These were matters; far more important to be known to merchants than bills of sale and mortgages. The metohant'a busineia dearly was, to ascertain whether a proposed customer was in suffioitnt credit to enable him to think that he oould safely trustthat customer ; but that, as had been said, a merchant was now enabled to do. Jn England, where tho members of a Trade Protection Society distributed amongst themselves a weakly oiroular, by which every r>il of exohanga that had been dishonoured, and every bill of sale or mortgage that had been registered during the week, were made known, it was well understood that if a member of such a society allowed the information to go beyond himself, ke washable to an action for damages, for destroying or hurting the oredifc of the peraon whose affairs ho thus published. If the honourable) member for Dnnedin proposed that the* power of search for whioh ho now asked should be surrounded with safeguard* against being used by persons who wereinfluenced only by curiosity or by som* improper motive, the proposition would be a different one. But as he now understood the views of the honoura le member, though he (Mr Bell) would not oppose tho Bill heing brought in, he would give mo«t strenuous opposition to its panting its second reading.

Mr Reynolds: Unless the honourable, member finds that he approves of it. Mr Bkll was speaking from what lie ai present understood to bo the principle of theBilL He invited tho honourable member tolimit his Bill to giving ample security to themerohant for tho fulieat enquiry into the condition of evory person with whom he had the intention to trad*.

Mr RicvNOLpa-, Tha* is what tho Bill i» intended to do.

Mr Bku. \ Very well. II tho honourable membor wants to go beyond that, I shall oppose him.

Major Hkawv, V.0., thought that while there should bo tho fullest freedom toinrpccb any partionhr registration of a bill of cofo or mortgasOt there should be lomo tax in the nature of a fee placed upon such inspection,, so that those only who had a real ncootsityv and tot thono actuated >y idle curiosity a» to tho oommorcial position of men in tho> community amongst which they reside, should got the information afforded by tnclk registers. Tho omo eoetnod to him to bo very similar to that of. the inspection of wills. It nri«ht be very interesting to many poopla in England to know how property bad been loft amongst their friends or n«i«hbours ; but to> searoh a will, it was necessary to go to> Doctor's Commons, to pay a fee, and to sp«nd time. Knowledge as to the provisions of » will wm not denied, but it could only b» acquired undw oradittot which opiated if

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a bar to persona who were^merely ourioixa or inquisitive on suoh matters. So here,} ac thought that ft person really interested w knowing whether A had in any way conveyed away his property should, on the payment of a email lee, be able to ascertain what was the f aot as to that property j but he objected to any person, on the payment or a single fee, being able to make a general or cursory inspection of all the bills of sale and the mortgages in the office of a Registrar. Mr Boni/ASB said that the practice, at present, was thia : If a member of the legal profession, or a person otherwise known to a Registrar, wanted to know whether in'partionlar person had made a bill of sale, he had only to go to the office, ask the question, and p» a shilling, and he could see the ill, if there was one. Was not that all that could possibly be required ? Of course the Registrar, in Wellington for instance, would not allow any idle loafer on the beach to see any deed or dooument relating to property ; but any member of the profession, or known person, could do as he (Mr Borlase) had now stated to the House. He would suggest that all the New Zealand Acts as to bills o£ sale and mortgages should be consolidated. At present they might be said to travel through the Statute Book, almost. Lawyers, of course, were bound to know what Acts there were on the subject, and where to find them j but any one not a lawyer, but who might still be greatly inter4 «sted as to the law on the subject, would assuredly be greatly puzzled amongst a ots. Amendment Acts, and even Amendment Aot Amendment Acts. A very short Act, xf the Government were disposed to introduce it mightconsolidatethewhole of the Acta. He had come to the conclusion that bills of sale were a mistake and a delusion, and in the oreatmajorityofcaaestheywereonlyamedium of fraud. He should like to see the whole system of bills of sale on personal property done away with— he did not allude to great transactions in flocks of sheep and cattle, but to bills of sale on furniture and personal property. Bills of sale were frequently given according to the stock a man might possess in the future. The person giving the goods on credit obtained a bill of sale over them, and hy-and-by the debtor obtained goods on credit from another man, and although he had sold the goods received from the person to whom he had given the first bill of sale, and had realined the money upon them, yet the holder of the bill of Bale came down upon the property. He should, therefore, hke honourable members to hear in mind whether it was right to have bills of sale, unless against cattle and stock. Mr Bevnolds was astonished to hear the opinions entertained by some honourable members as to the real question before the House. It seemed to be the opinion of the Government that the Bill did not provide for general searches 5 while it was the opinion of a large section of the community well a'->le to judge on the matter, that toe Bill did provide for general searohes. He thoueht the proper time to discuss the ±SilJ -would be upon the second reading, as, until the Bill was printed, and in the hands of honourable members, it would be impossible for them to judge as to the merits of it. The honourable member for Hoathcote, although he had not aoen the Bill, objected to it on the ground that it would enable people to pry Into the affairs of others simply out of mere idle curiosity. He did not think that any one, out of mere idle curiosity, would pay 2s for every bill of sale registered. The honourable Lmber for Parnell .aid that it would be well to have a fee charged upon each bill of sale rogistored; but that had been the cose prior to the time of tho Kogistrar's attention having been called to tlie fact that the law would not permit of a general search. His honourable friend, the member for WclUogton City, was not oorrcct in stating that the sum to be paid wai only Is for examining c*ch bill of sale. The Act distinctly stated thnt 2s had to bo pttd for every search, and ho did think, when an honourab'e tnomber of tho legal profession spoke upon a. legal question, he Bhouldatany rate be prepared to state tho ex.cb fws vhvoh were chargeable by tho Court. Ho trusted tho House wouH not rofuso pcrrnis•ion to iutroduoo tha Bill, and would defer tho discussion opon it until tho woond reading. , , >f . Leavo wan granted. Mr "Reynolds and Mr Waring Taylor wero ordered to prepare the Bill, which was brought in. rexd a first t>mr, ordered to b* printed, and tho second reading fixed for Wcdnenday.

(Juno 23rd. } <:urnu rirrmoK.

Mr DIM.ON Biu.i* wi»hcd to ink the Spoftkflr to bo kind enotitrh to my whether no coold civo notice of motion that tho evidence appended to the report of tho Clntha Comrow •lon, with rcspeot to which tho Government hud riven an anewcr <vo. • previous <Uy, ■hould bo printed boforo the report waa laid on tho table. It wan an nnwmnl oourw. but the honourable members on tho Waal* Lands Committee woro enßMted in a matter on which tho report would ibortly b» brought tin and thia evidonoo would b« mort mate, rial. It would save time it thii motioa oould to anted to. . ... , ThoSwuKKn: Do I nmijwUnrt tho non<rarab<« momW to rof«r to tho nrfmtt of a Cotm»>ttcft which hat already reported? Mr Dim-os Bku.i No; tlioCommtwion on the Cluth* petition •ppofntedliytba Gjvernor.the report of whtah vrould boleM «m«ntty <m the table, and whioh, h« pre«m«d, would be ordered to be printed. Mr Bt*T»W wid, m it ««Uww gjj, tfceOovwnmtntwonldfrt it plated. Wrth

regard^ to ' the question whioh had Veen incidentally raised, honourable members iwere" aware that when papers were" laid on the table they could at once be ordered, to be" printed. This had been the practice for many years, and if so, it ought to be in the power of the Souse to order, on a subsequent day, that papers should be printed without notice of motion being given. He made these remarka because he was anxious to move that the report of the "Oyster Fisheries Commission should be printed, and' he omitted to do so when he laid the papers on the table. Mr Reynolds said the evidence referred to was very voluminous, and he believed a great portion of it would be of little or no service. It would be well if the evidence were on the table, and then it might be considered whether it should be printed. Mr Lublam said the delay of printing the report till it was brought up would be serious. There were several petitions before \ the Waste Lands Committee, and it would | be wrong to consider them before the report of the Commission was before the Committee, although much of the evidence might be irrelevant. It would be well if the evidenoe and the report itself were before the Committee before they considered those petitions. Mr Dillon Bell : Is the report in the hands of the Government? ]

Mr Stafford : No. Mr Dillon Bell said the reason why the Committee -were anxious to see the report of the Commission was, th*t charges were made as to the maladministration of the waste lands, where the interests of thousands were affected, and the Committee were in i complete iguorance of the evidence whioh was taken on the subjeot.

{Hansard— June 15th.) In his speeoh on the Want of Confidence motion, Mr Fox read out a singular letter, auppoaed to have been written by Tito Kowarn to King Tawhiao. It is evidently a political squib. Mr Fox commenced by saying : — We will look atthismatter through another eye-glass than that of Colonel Whitmore. Somebody, on his own account or on the account of the Government— l really don't know which— has lately been holding communications with King Tawhiao. Mr Firth, who waa once a member of this House— l don't know what house he may have been in since then, but I think I know some houses he ought to have been in— has been placing himself in communication with Tawhiao. Whether he has done that by the authority of the Government, or with their collusion, or permission, or knowledge, I do not know. Mr Davis and Mr Preece have been concerned, and I am sorry to Bay that my respected friend, Sir William Martin, has got mixed up in the affair. They have been carrying on negotiations, authorized or unauthorized, OB to peace, and the terms of it. The point to which I wish to allude particularly, is this. I observed in the report of what passed the other day, that; these gen* tlemen were exceedingly anxious to get a sight of a letter written by a certain party to King Tawhiao. and they left no means untried in order to succeed. But they did not succeed. King Tawhiao and hi» allies would not produce the letter. There are other people, Sir, who may have taken upon themselves— who may have had the boldness or the audacity— to have held communication with King Tawhiao ; they may have been more iucceasful in their endea. ▼ours to obtain a sight of his official oorre. spondence— it is just possible they may have got » sight of it— it is within the limits of possibility that they might have been permittad to look at, and even take notes of, the official correspondence of Tito Kowaru to King Tawbiao. I should not wonder that the documents are to be got. I have seen a dooument whioh purports to be Tito Kowaru's despatch to Tawhiao, giving him nn account of the late oampaign on the West Coast. I am not a oritooal judge of Maori composition, and not able to put mytelf into tho Maori mind, like that gentleI man in tho Native Office, who writ** de•patches from the Governor to tho King. I believe that the document I hold in my hand, such as it i«, ropretenU the Maori mind. It boaro upon tho face of it the ordinary mark*, the internal marks, of being an authentic lotter from Tito Kowaru. Of oourao Ido not guarantee its authenticity, but if he did not write tho letter to tho King, of whioh thU professes to bo a translation, it certainly doe* give, a* olotolv *s noiiiblo, what ho would have taid oa that ooowion. I will, aubjootto the powibto proo* that may hereafter bo adduced that the letter it not really a genuine one, retwl it to the House, an it convoy* to my mind, apartfrom any polittoal considerations, a very important and interesting account of tte SmpSln «m the West Coast by Tito Kownru. Wo have got Colonel Whitmore'e account of it ; now wo will we what Tito Kowaru may wy of it wwx historian. TWa U tho lottor :— , . _, * Tina rakoo I ■alutetioni to yon, 0 King TnwhUo, and to your doadJ Tbw w my letter to yoa. from mo the man witn. one eye, who kept hie eye open when the two evo» of the Pakeha wero atleep. IMen, 0, Tawhiao, te what I hare done. " After General CUute, the Qucon'« Gene* t§L had destroyed aU the pahs of tho Ngatt. nwaui, the Pakehat took all the land from Waitotara to Ngutu ote-Menu. Then the Qnoen'a toldier* went away to Auckland, to WcHn*t<ra, many o< them went bwk to Ebblmul; but the Pekohaa who «row*>»i »J keep ebeep and oattle, cawo «ad Uved <m that Und~they oame with their wivt* and children. They bad W wldiw» w\\\

tafem-^only a few of the men they call oonatsi&les.v These constables had guns, but 'they did nothing— oioly 1 they were very fond of rum;; After two yeaw it Beemed to me that'the time had come to retake that land, and to avenge the losses inflicted on me by the Queen's troops. We began by stealing the horses of the Pakeha. Great was the folly of the Kaiwakawa— of the man Booth. He came to look for the thieves and for the horses j but he took the wrong horses and the wrong men, and he had to let them go again: Then the wrong doing of the Pakeha was clear to all the tribes. We began by murdering the men who were living on the land. We killed quietly one, two, three of those Pakehas. Then we attacked the constables who were in the redoubt at Waihi. We killed a great many of them— not one of my young men waa hit. The Pakehas were asleep in their beds. Before their eyes were open that work was done, and my men had returned to the bush j then I heard that McDonnell was coming with many constables, so 1 1 made myself strong at Ngutu-o-te-Manu, for I knew that McDonnell was a brave man. But the God of the Hauhaus blinded his eyes. He fell into my trap ; two thousand of the Pakehas were killed on that occasion." (Tito says 2,000; the real number was much less, but it seems impossible even for a native to write military despatches without enormous exaggerations.) '• Two thousand of the Pakehas were killed, my young men were weary with swinging the tomahawks— very few of the Pakehas escaped. This indeed was a great viotory. '•After that Haultain oame. He is the great head of the Fakeha's soldiers, the right hand of the Governor in fighting. He did not come to Ngutu«o-te-Manu, for he was afraid of my young men. We saw only his back, his face we did not see. Then he gave up all that country, and all the pahs of the white men) he did not fight for one of them. No ; he took the soldiers quite away, to Nukumaru— to Weraroa— to Wanganui. Only a few were left at Patea. His retrea* was forty miles— so great was his fear of the Hauhaus.

14 Then Whitmore came. He was the new General. His jumping about was very quick, he was like a flea. One day he jumped with all his soldier* to Patea. Great was the folly of that jumping. I advanoed past his soldiers and went straight to Moturoa. That was his folly. Why did he not stay in front of me at Weraroa— at Nukumaru ? Then he might have protected all that country. When he found I had got to b» rear, he came back again. He attacked me at Moturoa. That wan not a strong place, only a few sticks. He fired at t» all day, but we beat him off ; many of the Pakehas were killed, very few of my men. Then he retreated to Patea. That was the wrong way altogether. He should have held Weraroa ; that was the key of the whole country. A few of the Pakehas only were left at Weraroa, and my young men attacked that pah, but it was very strong ; we did not succeed. I could never have taken that pah but for the jumpings of Whitmore, for the day after my men had tried to take it, when the Pakehas were dancing for joy that they had beaten off my young^ men, Whitmore came and took his ooldiere away. He burned down his own tents and house*, his strong houses of wood. He destroyed also all the food, and he jumped away again very ■wif tly. Great indeed waa the folly of that jumpintr. I then advanced to Nakumaru and Weraroa. 1 built a strong pah at Turangahik*. All the time I was building it the Pakeha left me alone ; he never attacked me. There I lived necare, while my young men destroyed all the houses of the Pakeha that wore in all that oountry, and their cattle, and their sheep, and their horses. We killed one hundred thousaud cattle, also one hundred and fifty thousaud sheep, and took horsca without number. Also we burned down five hundred houses ; preat houses, like the houee of tho Governor, all full of silver and gold. Very grent indeed was the plunder of those housos. Thore was much food in some of them; also clothes, and mats, and wonderful things that tho Pakehao «R9.

11 Wo remained hero quiet for many weeks, for all the eummor, only my young men went out to dentroy houses and catch straggling Pakehas. We killed many of them from time to time, perhaps a hundred ; some woro gathering petchet, sorno wcro riding about as soldier* on their horsct. I ihould havo attack od Wangexmi, but thero wore some of the Qucon'a soldier* thoro, to I did not do «o. By and-by perhaps boo will take them awas , then I will oat up Wanganui as I have eaten op all tho otoor placet of tho Pakchas. " At latt we haA oontumed aU tho food of that country : there wore no moro cows, nor theep, nor pigs ; nothing was left but fern root. So my young men doternnncd to go home each to his own kainga. This wm dotermined on : tho noxt day thoy would have fane, when, behold, Whitmore wat soon with is soldiers to bo approaching Tnranganika. He cmqo right on In front. Ho had very many toldlort with him. Ho had •both* I ig guns, and the oohorni which roake their •hot to jump over the fenoe*. (If ho had had thoee thingn at Moturoa, 1 oould not have •tayed thero. I ahoald have been killed altogether.) When we »aw him coming on right In front, my young men i*id * now it i* (fclmft tor u« to go homo/ So, in tho night they tUpped away quietly into the both, Fn the moraine the/ wero all gone. They left no track; bnt ovory #a» went tohw own kainga. That ooming on \n front of Whitmore, vith h\s jruut and hi* oohornt, wm not wtas. He ihoutd have oome allly. He ehotdd have got *ome of bie men roood to the bebfc of the pah, that would hare been •My; tieo, wbjm he flrtd hU big gum I*

front, perhaps my young men would haye 1 tried to, escape at the, back, and he would have caught them. But this ia the way of the Pakeha, he has- no sense.

"After this 1 went alone to Waitarai Only the women were with me. Whitmore followed me to Te Ngaire, but he was lost there among the swamps. I saw no more of him. Perhaps the eels have eaten him. Perhaps he has jumped away to some other place. " Now, 0 Tawhiao, I have something to ask of you. I am not going to aak what the Pakeha generate ask of their Queen— that you would give me a name of honour —that I should be called Lord Tito Kowaru, of Ngutu-o-te-Manu ; nor Sir Tito Kowaru, of Turangahika; nor General Tito Kowaru, C. B. I have made a name for myself ; at the name of Tito Kowaru all the Pakehas tremble. That name is known in Australia ; it has been, heard even in England, and before the throne of Queen Victoria. You can add nothing to my name to make it greater. Neither am I going to ask you for money. If I were a Pakeha perhaps I should ask for LIO.OOO for fighting the battles of the Hauhaus. Bub I aßk not for money, I have my reward. I have fed my grudge against the Pakeha. I have aveDged myself upon him. I have taken his land ; I have burned ; I have ravaged ; I have destroyed. The very slaves of my tribe, and the old women without teeth, are gorged with the flesh of the white man ; his bones I have burned on the altar of the god of the Hauhaus. I have nothing to ask in the way of reward. I am not a Pakeha. I fight not for money ; neither for a name of honour j nor for a fine suit of clothes, nor for a Btar, nor for a medal, like some of the Pakeha soldiers, whose coats are worn by my young men who have slain them. What 1 have to ask, O Tawhiao, is that, when the winter is over and the fighting time is come again, when food iB plenti« ftil, and the eyes of the Pakeha are again closed in sleep, you will send your soldiers to help me. Send a thousand ; send them with their guns and their powder ; send all the bravest ot the young men. Then I will again begin my fighting. This time I will destroy Watganui. Whitmore's jumping shall be to Manawatu, to Otaki, to Porirua, to Wellington. Then we will drive him and all those Pakeh'ns into the sea, and New Zealand again shall be for the New Zealanders. That is my word, 0 Tawhiao. Heoi auo. na hoa aroha. Trro Kowaru."

(June 18fch.)

Mr Rolleston spoke as follows :— Sir— l rise under circumstances of some difficulty to explain the considerations whioh influence vie in the course whioh I propose to take in reference to the motion now before the House, During the last session I consistently voted agninnt the Government, because I had no confidence in them. Mv opinion is not changed. I felt then, Sir, in regard to their Native policy, that tho conflict of authority between the Defence and Native Departments, the nondesoript character of the Armed Constabulary Force, and other causes, could not but result in the consequences which have since verified the predictions of many members in this House during the last session, 1 felt, with re. gard to their policy in Tespect to tho Provinces, that they wore unable to propose and to stand by any [definite line of policy, and, in the absence of that policy, to refrain from tho moat mischievous meddling, whioh has had tho effect of fostering disunion and discontent, and paralyzing all healthy action in the provinces, in a manner whioh was ruinous to tho political peace of the Middle Mand. I wocild that I could now hope that there was any assurance to this Houne and to tho country that they will not in future, as in the c&so of tho Public Debts Act, reverse their policy and abjure their principles in complianco with pressure from without ; that thoy will not, to meet political exigencies, "sell the truth to servo tho hour," aud ttiko that miserable compromising conrso whioh they took in respect to tho Princes atrcefc Itesorvo, tho Mauawatu Block, and tho Otago Snperintoudency. Sir, during last session the Premier enmo down -with a Bill to secure tho purity of thU House. I allude to tho Pis. qualification Bill. Ono of his firnt acts whon tho Houso had risen won, in my opinion, most inconsistent with tho couruo ho took on that occasion. I refer to a wellknown appointment in tho Defence Office I do not canvass tho inorits of tlio individual, \ but I s*y that if this appointment woro foli lowed up by others of a similar character, I tho result would bo ruin to tho woll-being of the Civil Service of tho country. I feel ntrongly upon this point. It is ono on which I should fool I wm not doing my duty to tho country, and to the Borvico for which, from old association*. I lmvo a great regard, if I did not speak m tho strongest terms. No Minittiy that «cU in that way oould over havo my oonfldonoe or support in thw Houio. That it but one among many inttanow in whioh the honourable member at the head of the Govornmout has laid down prinoip«ea and aoted oatirely contrary to them. In tho worde of Mr Uwo, ■peaking of Mr Dwraeli :— "Ho h«» had tho tatwUctioa of throwing attdo evory principle that ho wer profeawd, of burning everything that ho adored, and adoriofl everything that ho would have burned" And, Sir. Ido not hwiUte to tay that the oourao whioh ho ba« tokon in rela« tion to the Govornment of the Colony hM been one which hiw prepared for the Govern, ment of whioh he in tho head, and for the country, a position the mo«t oalamitont that any Govornment or any country c*a be placed In— the position of a Government ruling on mifieranoe, protracting » wretched exjtteaee in spite «f tb« lon of thttr principle, of

Ml

i.

their "own self-'res^eotVaM^ftKrres'p'eot^f 1 the oountry at larße.> There' was one point ia the speech' of the honourable, member at the head, of the Government, the other night, which I cannot suffer to pass unchallenged, as no other member h»s alluded to it. Bis argument in defence of the Government was this, that they had been required to meet an unparalleled crisis with small means ; that the circumstances were special; that other Governments had' not been restricted as they had been, in their aotion. I think the honourable gentleman for- j got the course he adopted when he took office in 1865. There was at that time— and I am very glad now to be able to bring this up, because* it has been so constantly ignored by him and his colleagues— a vote taken by the Ministry he turned out of office, of L6o,oooforthe Armed Constabulary for six months, whioh was reported to the House, and only required to be placed in the Appropriatioa Act. There was at the same time a vote of L 58.000 for Native purposes, which he cut down in a fit of eoonomy to L 33,000, to carry out his boasted promise of a saving of L 240.000. I see the Hon. the Defence Minister shakes his head, but I have the facts before me in the Journals of the Souse. The reduction made by the Hon, the Premier was from L 85,000 to L 25,000 in that year for internal defence. The Hon. the late Postmaster. General, in referring the other night to what happened in the year 186G, and the way the Government had then been refused the supplies they asked for, spoke in a manner that threw a slur on the action of the House. This House had, under the invitation of the honourable member at the head of the Government, consented to cut down its own votes. He had asked them to relinquish them, and they had done so ; was it any wonder that the House should in the next year decline to give them what they had themselves thrown over?

Mr Hall : The troops had left in the meantime.

Mr Rolleston : I am surprised to hear the hon. the ex- Postmaster- General bring forward that argument, Was it not known that the troops were going ? Was it not part of the self-reliant policy to provide distinctly for that ? Does not the honourable member at the head of the Government now come forward as the ahampion of self-reliance ? I should like to know in what light he does come forward? 1 speak on this occasion with considerable pain. There are among the Ministry individual members for whom I have the highest respect, apart from the personal friendship which has obtained, aud I trust will continue to obtain, between me and them. There ia no one who is acquainted with the hon. the Premier who would think for a moment that there is an absence of ability and administrative experience ou tboso benches. There is no one but recognizes the earnestness and conscientiousness of tho Commissioner of Customs and the PostmasterGeneral — no one but sees and admires the indefatigable industry of the Defence Minister — no one who has watched the Hon the Colonial Treasurer— but recognises that there is not wanting on those benches, I will not say political craft, but the diplomacy which isjnecessary for political lif o. But these qualities, as it appears to me, have never been so blended as to produce any harmonious result. Instead of that, we have had the speohcle of a powerful machinery working oat of gear. Tho wrong and unconstitutional ccurse taken hy the Premier on his accession to office in 1866— the unnatural combination subsequently made with tho men who had turned him out, has had, I venture to think, a Mightinginfluonceonall the actions of the Ministry throughout their career. I foul myself therefore in the position of being unable to give a vote asserting or implying confidonce in the Ministry. At tho^ same time I must say that it is a most serious mat tor for me' or for any member of this House having tho interest of the oountry at heart, to vote for a motion the obvious result of whioh will be, if successful, to displaco a Ministry in favour ofonewhoseplans, atatimeof extreme difficulty in the colony, arenotplaoed bofore this Houso, and tho views of whoso party, so far as they are known now to thin House, arevorystronglyopposod to theviowßof many who will vote against the Ministry on this occasion. I felt it to be a position of groat difficulty. And one which I think myaelf nnd other members of this Houso should not have boon placed in. I havo thought vory anxiously ovor tho course that I ought to take at this time, and I havo made up my mind as to that course I had intended to havo moved an amendment on the resolution of the honourable member, but I found tint thoro were difficulties in the way of such a plan, which to my mind are insuperable, md 1 done so, tho object wo all have in viow —tho cloaring ftway of the mist, and arriving at some plain conclusion— would not havo boon gained. 1 found, first of all, that tho way in whioh tho motion would be pot to thin Houso, in aocordanoo with tho Standing Orders, is snob, as would uot fairly represent my intentions, and would simply end in prolonging tho difficulty. Again. Sir, I feol that tho time has eerUinJy como when tho Houso, and <vhen tho Colony must rooognite that it is impossible for tho oountry to be governed, unless wo finally, onoe and for all, determine that wo havo confidence in a Ministry, and that wo will unite to sustain that Ministry in oarrying out » polioy of whioh we approve, I think that Ministers would be in a wrong position at tho present time, if they at all shrank — and I am hound to nay that they have given no indication of a desire to shrink-- from meeting toe vote of waat of ooufid«uo4. Let us

this House who, as a Ministry, would .oojol* mand greater confidence < thau, is manded by the present Ministers.' ' X do not say that there are.t I have opokenso far, Sir, upon the motion now before the House. I think that I am bound to state; briefly, my own general view of the present position of affairs. It will only be by bringing together the result of our common thoughts, for what they may be worth, that we shall win our way

Through the long gorge to the far light.

Whatever may be the result of this motion, I shall look upon it as a termination of party strife. I trust, with the Commissioner of Customs, that we shall, when this motion has been disposed of, sink all party considerations and unite for the good of the country. It seercs to me that what we should first do is. to divest the problem before us of all which we consider to be impossible. The proposition that seems to be prominent in the minds of many members of this House is, the calling in of Imperial aid. I feel very strongly on that subject. I believe that such aid is not to be calculated upon, even if we appealed for it. I believe that we should be doing ourselves a wrong by cringing for such aid ; and if it could be got by any suoh a course, I for one would not consent to it upon any other terms than the supension of the Constitution so far as concerns this island. The other plan, that which seems to find favour on the Ministerial Benches, is that of obtaining a loan, either with the Imperial guarantee, or, if that is not to be had, without it. I think that the question whether we should get that guarantee is pretty well determined already, and that we should not get it. That being the case, 1 thiDk it is plain that we cannot raise a loan, while the war lasts, except at a ruinous sacrifice, We could not raise suoh a loan except at such a rate of discount as would make it most unwise for us to put the loan upon market at this time, and the .value of our existing seouritieH at home would be most materially impaired.

Mr Stafford : They never were higher. By the lasb advices received from home, our securities were higher than ever they were before.

Mr Rollbston : But a new loan is not yet in the market. Ido not dose my eyes to the fact that there are now very heavy liabilities on us which have been contracted by thiß Ministry, and which rausli be met whether this Ministry remains in offioo or a new one is formed. As a Middle Island man, I will not go, as the Hon. the Premier went, into the question of the Middle Island against the North Island — of our- interests as against theirs. I fully recognise the fact that we are one colony, and must remain so : that the ruin of the North is our ruin. Apart from that, we who have been more favoured in tho Middle Island, even upon what may be called the ground of sentiment, are nob prepared to see our fellow-settlers ruined and murdered. My idea with regard to a loan, judging from past experience, is thie : Loans and war act and react upon each other. The great principle which we have now to keep before us, and the necessity of which we must realise, is that of bringing the war upon the revenue. I do not say that that is possible at the present moment. We are in the midst of great difficulties which must be met; but any policy which will command the confidence of the country at large, must have as its koynoto to put the war upon the revenue. The honourable member for Nelson City, speaking last night, said that our course was to call in the doctor, and to think about paying tho bill afterwards. 1 must say that I think that a most foolhardy course. We must., Sir, adapt our operations to our moans. Holding the view I do. that the war would have ceased long ago if the means of keeping it up had been wanting, I say th»t we must at once set ourselves to roduco the softie of our operations. The manner in whioh we have carried out the soheme of military settlements, has, to my mind been productive of war. I would not throw any slight, nor will T speak disparagingly of the military settlers— but human nature is human nature, in military ecttlomants an elsewhere; and if you have a body of men whoso livelihood ia dependent upon kcopfcg up w»r, you will have war. I hold very strongly that tho»o is another principle which we nrust at onco establish. Our aefenco must not bo connected with our land, [f we aro to adapt our operations to our moans, it will follow, as a natural eonse* quonce, that (we must withdraw from such settlements at are merely for the purposes of holdioß territory— which we cannot profit»bly occupy. Tho effect of this withdrawal will depend very much npon those into whose hands falls the duty of doing it, and tho w*y in whioh it is done, Ido not say that [w« ought to withdraw in the face of an onomy ; but I do contond that there have been opportunities— thero were such two years am— in whioh we might fairly have said to tho Natives, " These lands are our* by right of conquest. You know that you havo been beaten upon them, and havo lost thorn. It does not unit us, at present, to occupy them ; »>ut wo will oooupy thorn in our own good time " Such opportunities will ocour to us again, and aU suoh opportunities must bo soizod. Our prinoiplo must distinctly be not to oooupy more than we o*n oocupy profitably and well. Thore it another point whioh, I think, should bo insisted upon by this Hooso at once, and that is the abandonment of the fruitless pur. »nit of tho enemy through tho country. 1 do not boo what can be looked for from suoh it oourto, except tho expenditure of large sums of money without any adequate [rwult. It *pt>«ara to m* that two y#w

I believe that the policy of another great general of the time to which I have referred, who is spoken of as the man "quinobis ounctando restituit rem," is that whioh we must pursue if we are to meet our difficulties successfully. I have said, Sir, that defence in connection with land must cease if we are to have peace. It is quite clear tb.at_ we must have come force in a country like this. Ido not suppose that we _ can do away with all defence, and all military equipments, and live as a happy family, for years to come. I believe that the great evil in connection with our present systamhas been that there hasbeennosecurity for keeping up a thoroughly well-organized and efficient force. We must, I believe, have a small colonial force of well-trained soldiers. I oan see no possible good that; is to come from such a force as we have now, which is really a military force under the name but without the character of constabulary. The maintenance of peace, as against local insurrections or local disturbances, must rest with the inhabit mts of each distriot : any offensive operations that become necessary from the position into which we may be brought, at any particular spot, with the Natives, must be undertaken by the colony. For such operations we must have a standing force belonging to the Colony as a whole. It seems to mo that the firat question to be determined is one which I do nob feel competent to determine, or to express an opinion upon, namely, what is the full extent to whioh our means will enable us to go without prejudicing ourselves in the homo market in respect to our loans, and what are the means that can be provided to meet our circumstances ? That being determined, we should know how to shape our operations according to our means. It is madness to hope to continue, without a defined system, and with no definite end before us, a course of reckless expenditure. We are not fighting with the Maori nation as a whole, but with insignificant men, whose names were unknown two years ago, who are the leaders of insignificant bodies of natives.

Mr Bolleston : I hope we never shall have. It will be the result of our own mismanagement, or a want of confidence on the part of the. Natives in the Government, if we have such an experience. Ido not think that that confidence now prevails that might prevail. The hon. the Commissioner of Customs has spoken as to how far we are acting justly with the Natives. I think, Sir, notwithstanding the sneer of the honourable momber as to the late member fer Newtcn, that we have acted far from justly, in many respects, towards tho Natives — that there are constant sores kept open on all sides, which prevent our making any approach to their confidence. I think that no one can come into tho Heads of Wellington, and enquiro about the position in which the various reserves in this Province that lie boforo him now are, without feeling that tho natives have a too good ground of complaint against us. There aro oomplaints existing on other parts of these coasts, which at any moment, through want of proper management, might bo fanned into flames that would drivetheuettlers from their homes. If the natives felt that confidence in tho Government which they ought to fool, that they could at any timo como and have thoir real wrongs redressed, things would bo in a position very different from that in whioh they now are. It is not, Sir, for us to extond our sphere of operations, and to do what is called by Ministers "grappling with tho whole of tho groat difficulty," by promoting a war throughout tho oountry. We shall be driven from too island if wo do j any suoh thing. What we want ia time. I< am not one of those who look with deipondonov to tho future. I see] in tho Auckland goldfields the beacon of what may, and I hope, and trust, and believe, will be, a solution of tho difficulty, if wo oan only rest on our oars. It will be by biding our time, us tuning a dofonsivo attitude, and so gaining time, that we shall roftlly meet the difficulty. I havo, Sir, made those observations, not with any wish to insist or even to imply, that I havo givon what can be called a complcto aohomo tor dealing with the present otnorgency. I know, Sir, that wo must — as tho Hon. tho Commissioner of Customs has said— modify our particular views, and moot eaoh other with concessions on all bands, before we oan arrive at any satisfactory oonolusion ; hut Ido say that unless, lof ore we loave this House, wo lay down definite principles on which wo will not, there it no hope for peace in this land iv our time.

(Jlantanl— Juno lCth.) TITO KOWARV AND T» KOOTI.

If r CnxionTON said th»t ho would endoa. your tobtu brief •• possible in moving the jttoltttlon standing is hi* name. Honourable

members would see that the motion was divided into two parts ; the first asking for any correspondence, proclamations, notices, or letters which might have been written by any member of the Government, authorising or promising the payment of a reward for the bodies of Tito Kowaru and other natives in arms against na ; and the second asking for a return of any sums of money paid in pursuance of any such notice or proclamation. He regretted that it should have been necessary For any member of the House to put such a notice on the paper, because on looking over the despatches from the Secretary of Sbate for the Colonies, he found that the attention of the Government had been called very pointedly, by Earl Granville, to the rumours on this subject, which his lordship had seen in the New Zealand papers ; and he (Mr Greighton) had hoped that the Government would have taken the hint, and have placed sufficient information before the House, although they might not have felt it to be their duty to inform the Imperial GoTJrnment of the steps that had » een taken in this matter. In the despatch, No. 35, of date the 25th February, Earl Granville wrote : —

•'Lastly, I see it stated in the newspapers that you have offered a reward of LIOOO for the person of the Maori chief Tito Kowaru — I infer alive or dead — and L 5 for the person of every Maori rebel brought in alive. Ido not pronounce any opinion at present as to the propriety of these steps ; but I must ob* serve that they are so much at variance with the usual laws of war, and appear at first sight so much calculated to exasperate and extend hostilities, that they ought to have been reported to me by you officially, with the requisite explanation, which 1 should now be glad to receive."

The honourable gentlemen at the head of the Government had written a memorandum, under date the 21st May last, and addressed to the Governor, in which he alluded to the passage of Lord Granville's despatch whioh had just been read to the House. The honourable gentleman wrote :—: —

" Earl Granville asks for information respecting an alleged offer of a reward of LI 000 lor the capture of the chief Tito Kowaru. The report which has reached the Colonial Office is exactly true, as also the inference drawn by his Lordship, that it was implied in the offer that the reward would bo given for the body of Tito Kowaru alive or dead. Ministers regret if this otfer has not been reported in the copious minutes of evouts furnished to His Excellency for transmission by every mail. It ia right now to add that a similiar reward on the same terms has been offered for the body of Te Kooti tho leader in the outrages on tho East Coast." — (Hear, hear.)

Perhaps, when the terms of the reward had been placed lie'oro the House, honourable members would not care to cheer as they had just done. Tho honourable member at the head of the Government proceeded to draw historical parallels, by way of illustrating tho conduct of the Government. He supposed that the honourable gentleman argued that, as His Excellency was ia the habit of referring to events that had t.iken place in other countries by way of illustrating the social and political phenomena of New Zealand, it would be a very propor way in which he himself miyht oxprosx hta opinion on this subject. Ho could not, hownver, congratulate the honourable gentleman on tho manner in which he had made his comparisono. Tho honourable gentleman wrote :—: — " Carl Granville suspends his judgmeut m to the propriety of these stops on tho ground that they are * much at variance with the usual laws of war.' When his Lordship shall have had leisure to consider tho details of the acts of Tito Kowaru and To Kooti, he will perhaps como to the conclusion that their atrocities are happily as exceptional as the course adopted with a view to their punishment. But tho offers in question are not without precedent in the history of tho mutiny in India, and even of the Fenian outrages within the heart of tho United Kingdom. Evory atrocity of the Sonoy rebellion has been paralleled and outdono in the raids, burnings, violations, tortures, murder*, and cannibalism of tho last nine months in New Zoaland, and with less provocation or excuse."

Ho entirely doniod that the proceedings of oven the last nine months, on the i>-<rt of Tito Kowaru or To Kooti, are at all on » parallel, or to bo placed in comparison, with tho atrocities committed by the Bengal Bopoys during tho Indian mutiny. Tho Sopoys were disciplined mon — mon in tho p*y of toe Government, commanded by officers holding Her Majosty's commission, and had been for years, and thon wore, aubjcot to military discipline They wore men who, whon they mutinied, slaughtered their officers, luid committed those othor atrocities of whioh all had read, well knowing that if thoy were defeated by tho British power they would suffer tho punishment of death for aots of military insubordination. Tho Now Zoalandors, so far at least as concerned thoto of them under arms against tho Crown, hud novor owned allegiance to tho British power. We might say that thoy wore British subjects ; but nt all evonts, they had novor been disciplined or brought under tho subjection of law. Although wo might regret tho atrocities committod by Tito Kowaru and his followers, and however repugnant suoh deeds might be to our fooling*, they were not at all udubual in Maori warfure. During the first few y»«ars of th»ir strugglo with tho British »rms, the Maoris did not commit atrocities of this kiud. But ho maintained that th •> Maori had been driven almost to desperation l*y tha long continued straggle in whioh he had «»• gaged with our forces— a struggle whioh the.

hence we shall find ourselves in muoh the same position as we are now in, with this difference— that we shall have thrown away thousands of pounds : indeed I fear that our expenditure will not be limited to thousands, if we are to continue our present system. We have heard, and we have had the papers laid before us, as to expeditions to Taupo and to Waikaremoana. I have no doubt that those expeditions were instituted with the very best intentions ; but I also think that it is the want of keeping some general prin ciple before us which renders these little spasmodic attempts futile and useless. The Honourable the Commissioner of Customs has quoted very aptly; and I hope that I may be permitted to make a quotation iv the words put in the mouth of one of the greatest genera's of anoient times :—: —

Cervi htporum pnocla rapocium Sectftmnrultroqnes op'mug Fullerti et eflngore osfc triumplina.

Maori himself must see to be ; and it was only the outcome of the nature of savage men that led them to commit the atrocities whioh we all deplored. He regretted, therefore, that the honourable gentlemen at the head of the Government should nave drawn the historical parallels he had drawn, in justification of what, perhaps, might have been justified on other and sufficient grounds. He did not think that the allusion made by the honourable gentleman to - the rewards offered for the apprehension of Fenian leaders in Ireland, was at all justified by anything like paralMism with the present case ; but he need not pursue that part of the sublet further. He found, on referring to the newspapers, that a reward was offered, on the 27th February last, of LIOOO for Tito Kowaru, dead or alive, with thia condition, to which— not to the reward— he entirely objected, the condition being that the money should be paid only if Tito Kowaru was captured or kUled in any other way than in an open encasement. He maintained that that was a clear inducement to craft and ambush, and by foul or fair means to deprive Tito Kowaru of his life. He did not stand there as the apologist of any rebel ; but he could not forget that we were civilised men and Chrißtians, and that we were at least not aetting that example to the Natives m this warfare that we ought to set them. He repeated that he thought the Government ought to have laid before the House the papers for which he was bow asking. He might explain that he had appended tho second part of the motion, because he had seen it mentioned in the newapapers that the Hon. tne Native Minister had authorised the payment of LSO to some person who reported, or who proved, the death of Nikora, who he (Mr Ci-eighton) believed was one of the ohiefa killed at the capture of Ngatapa. Motion made, and question proposed, «' For copies of all Proclamations or JNotioea offering rewards for the capture of Tito Kowaru and Te Kooti, or other Natives in arms against tho Government, and Correspondence relating thereto ; also, a Return of the Amounts of Money paid in pursuance of such Proclamations or Notices, to whom paid, and for what consideration. — (Mr Creighton. ) Mr Hall Baid that the Government had no objection to the production of the documents moved for. He thought he might congratulate the House on the fact that the honourable member who had just spoken, and who had taken the seat of the late member for Newton, had also adopted the mantle of that gentleman, so that the poor, oppressed, injured, long-Buffering rebel Maori would not be without a champion on the floor of this House. The Government waß not at all dia posed to agree that the offer of a reward for tho capture of Te Kooti or Tito Kowaru was open to the ol>jectiona stated by the honourable member The honourable member in criticising a memorandum I y the Colonial Secretary, which compared tbo atrocities committed by the Hauhaus with those of the Sepoys, said that there was no parallel between the two. A summary of the speech of the honourable member amounted to no more than this : '• These atrocities are natural to Mnoris. They are what we might expect Maoris to commit ; therefore they are excusable, and not eventß ftt which we should be aurprised " In reply he (Mr Hall) woiild s»y, when two sets of men were carrying on war, ono of whom refas.-d to recognise— did noB. in fict. know anything about— the usages of aviliaed warfare, nnd when the tw ■ were evenly matched, so that one could not afford to give away any advantage, it waa »n absurdity to talk of ouo of the parties consenting to have his hands tied by customs and usages which tho other could not and never did reoogoise as part of its system of warfare. The honourable member had said that there was more excuse for tho S-po\s, because they had placed themselves in ouch a position that, if they wero uot conquerers, thoy knew that their lives would bo forfeited. Mr Orkiuhtou : No ; I did not say that that was miy excuse for tho Sepoys. On the contrnry, I said that the Sepoys, being disciplined men, bad no excuse whatever, and that tho severities exercised towards them, when the mutiny was suppressed, were Bimply a Kiting *ff ot to thu rules of tho service which those men had transgressed .

Mr Halo ne©U not go further into that point. Ho would, in the general oourso or w*rlare between Kur jpean and Natives of tbi» island, bo ono of th« lost to approve of suoh extreme measures as tho Government had felt bound to adopt in this instance. But whon such Mxocitios woro committed »s the mansaoro at Poverty Bay, in which unoffending persons, living on laad that never was conti*oat«d, but was occupied by consent of Nativo owners, woro attacked in tho dead of tho night, and mon, women, and helpless babos at tho breast, wero murdorod in cold Mood, and ovory concciva 1 lo kmd of atrocity waa committed, in such a oaeo wo must oonoludo that tho dovil bad Ukon posiojsion of these fanatics in such a way that thorp was no uso m holding out to them any idea of moroy or of life. Tho honourable gentleman had stated that thoro was somo excuse for tho»o rebels ; but what woro tho facts ? Thono very mon wore takon with arms in thoir hands, at Omwanui-thoy were takon red-handed; and, quito contrary to th« courso whioh thoy would have adopted with European prisoners, all thmr livmi were spared. Tho men were s«nt to tho Chatham Islands, and wero exoeodlngly well treated th-re. What was the return they made to u»? The Poverty Bay massacro— massacres in every othor place wbero they could take unoffending settlers by surprise— massacres in which not ago, nor sex, nor anything clso, was nwpcotod. Those wcro tho returns whinh men, whoss lives were lorfwUd by

'thflirownlawsaswelLas ours, made to us, for sparing their lives. Their case was worse than that of the Sepoys. The honourable member had said that we ought to Bet these men an example. That example we had set them at Omaranui. It had failed to have the effect we might have hoped it would have. Granted, the extreme measures which h»d been adopted were such aa no Government should adopt except under the preasure of very extreme circumstances ; but he said that, in the eyes of this country, and, he believed, of the civilized world, the Government would be held justified in the course it had adopted. Major Bbown said that, while listening to the honouraMe member for Newton, he almost thought that he was listening again ! to a friendly native whom he knew. That native, named Sam Peke, on the occasion of a sortie being made, said to him (Major Brown), that the Queen's soldiers ought to 111 1 c ashamed to do anything of the kind, because they knew better; but the poor Maoris did not know better, and that, therefore, they could not be found fault with if they laid ambushes and carried out surprises. Mr H. S. Harrison waa sorry when he saw thiß motion tabled. Although he should much regret to see the Maori rebels or any enemieß against the Crown fought by means of proclamations and rewards such as those referred to in the motion, yet, when such ogres, such obscene beasts of prey, as Tito Kowaru and Te Kooti appeared, he thought the Government wob imperatively called upon to adopt such a course of action, and that the less said about it the better. He not only regretted that the motion had been tabled, but he hoped that none of the information asked for would be supplied by the Government. Mr Dillon Bell was glad to hear most of the remarks made by the member of the Government who had spoken ; but if he (Mr Bell) were the Government, he would refuse to assent to the motion now before the House. The Government had taken a perfectly right course in offering rewards for these men whether taken alive or dead. The gratitude of the House was due to the Government for the manner in which it had resented the interference of the Imperial Government in this matter. The Imperial Government had acted towards us in a most unfeeling way, and had, by this despatch of Lord Granville's, added gratuitous impertinence : and the Colonial Secretary's memorandum on that despatch deserved the entire approval and defence of the House. When men rose in the House and attempted to excuse such atrocities &a had been committed, the Government should stand upon its dignity, and refuse to give any information. | Mr Ormosd atpreed generally with the honourable member for Mataura. He thought, however, the Government should give some information as to the position in which they would be, nnd the aoti. n they would take, if the reported HI ing of Te Kooti turned out to ie true. Th-jre were outatandmg rewards for the murderers of Mr Volkner and others, and it did not appoar from any action on the part of the Natives, that the> would act so as to secure those rewards. As to Te Kooti, there was perhaps, a reasonable probability in the conclusion that he was ki led in the attack nn Mohaka. He did not wish to lead the House to think that he believed Te Kooti was so killed, but he did think that tho evidence was very strong in its favour. If it should prove that To Kooti was killed at Mohaka, he thought the Government would strengthen their hands in dealing with Native matters, and would produce an effent which might poßsibly havo a good result hereafter, by saying that the reward that hvl been offered should be paid to the Mohaka people. Tno resistance made by those people was, as tho House was aware, of tho moat gallant character. They wero almost ! dcßtroved as a tribe, and aa allies they stood out preeminent at tho present time, so as to di>s- rye the utmost consideration on tho part of tho Government.

Mr Carlktox entirely agreod with tho honourable member for Mataura It was worao than absurd that we should hitter ourselves with tho conventionalities of European warfare, whon oontending with those who would observe no conventionalities at aIL Tho first thing to bo thought of in warfare was, how to win Wo wero not Isound, and,wo had no right, to place ourselves at any disadvantage. At tho sumo time, ho fully nlmittcd that if oonv nttonahties oould be introduced wbioh would be observed on both sides, and which would lessen the horrors of warfare, such conventionalities should bo held to be binding. But tho Maoris' idota of war and our ideas were diamotrioally opposed. Tho Maori mado war to kill, and for nothing else ; ho reckoned tho Joxtent of his victory by the number of his cnemici ho had killed. Whereas, with us, whon a small hamlfnl of uooonquered men stood on tho top of tho Hill of Albnera, wo olaimod a victory because they so stood ; tho Maori would bavo said that wo lost tb© battle, booause wo had too many of our men killed, and that so much uiu, that is, payment, would havo to be taken to balanoo tho loss As within his own knowledge, ho oou d state to the Honao that when the Maori* in tho North hoard that the Government was de■irons of taking Tito Kowaru alive, •• What do you want to tako him alive for ?" th^y aikod, "are you going to tortura him?" That was tho Unit idea that ooourod to tho Maori mind In oonncotlon with tho otpturo of TitoKowam. If we were placed nponan equality withthe Maoriinalt raattersof thin tort, he <Mr Cadeton) would t>© perfectly content ; but ht wm not oonWut, that w» should

He thought it' was Sir Walter Scott who told a story of a ' oouple of men who went out to fight a duel". Ono of them had only a rapier, and he complained that his antagonist had a rapier and a dagger. "We came here to fight, not to talk," said the other, "draw, and defend thyeelf." It was pretty well known that he had been one of the first in the House, upon all occasions, to endeavour ?to secure fair play towards the Natives ; but no sentimental grievance, such as the one indicated, would ever have his support.

Mr Kelly was astonished at tho words which bad fallen from the honourable member for Newton. The sentiments expressed by him showed that he was not an out-aetcler of the North laland ; they were not the sentiments of the settlers of the North Island. He approved of the action taken by the Government in referenceto that matter, and his only regret was that it had nob been carried further. No action was taken by the Government to drive the Ngatimaniapotoa to commit the outrages at the White Cliffs. They had not been interfered with by the Government. The rebels had come from their fastnesses and attacked the settlers without any provocation whatever. In fact, their object waa to bring on a war. They had been entirely unprovoked, and he was quite astonished that the honourable member should sympathise with those Natives.

Mr Fox felt that he ought not to give a silent vote on the present occasion : he thought it waa the duty of every prominent member of the Houae, on an oooasion of that land, to express his opinion. He felt bound, on the present ocoasion, to support the Government as far as he was acquainted with the action they had taken in that matter ; at the same time he was anxious that they should not refuse to give the information that had been asked. He thought the wise course would be to give the fullest possible information to the House, so that the House, the Imperial Government, and the world should judge of the course they had pursued. He believed the Government had done nothing and offered nothing which they could not fully justify in the eyes of humanity. No one could deprecate more than he would the holding out inducements to inflict any cruelty or unnecessary hardship on the enemy beyond that of their simply losing their lives in the cause which they advocated. In reference to the Sepoys, the officers of the Indian army were charged with having gone out and inflicted moral, mental, and personal torture upon rebels taken in anas during the mutiny. If that waa the case, it was justly calculated to provoke the indignation of the people of the Christian country in the army of which the officers were aorving. He was not aware that the Government had held out any reward calculated to induce persona to adopt such a course of proceeding towards the rebel Natives. After the events which had taken place, and the great atrocities whioh the rebels had committed, every friendly Maori and European was con* stituted ipso facto a policeman, and it was their duty to capture the rebels if they oonld. Where such frightful atrocities had teen committed, it was his duty to constitute himaelf a publio executioner in the same way aa if ho waa appointed a hangman. The Government had invited theadoption of straightforward means, and even lying in ambush would have been a lawful way of capturing the enemy If they had invited the Europeans and friendly Natives to bring in the rebels dead or altvo they would not have exceeded the duty they were bound to fulfil. He felt bound to support the conduct of the Government, but he hoped they would not consent to the advico given to withhold the information, but that they would give the fullest information as to the course thoyhad pursued and intended to pursue to tho House.

Mr Stafford said the Government was prepared to giv« every informat on on the Bubject. The Government felt justified in writing the memorandum in reference to Lord Granville's despatch. Although their having done so had the misfortune to come under tbo censure of the honourable mombor for Norton, yet the expression of opinion given by the House generally showed that tho honourable inembr stood alone in his o -inion on tho tuhject. Believing that he was justified in using tho languago th&t had used in the memorandum in question, ho should be prepared to repeat it if a similar imputation were made on the Colony by the Imperial Government. So long as ho acted in any ' pnblio capacity, whether aa a memtar of the Legislature or of the Government, he would not stand idly by when nujust imputations were made that affooted their sinoerity or humanity. Ho might say that the particular* of tho oases wore very fow ; tho publio were familiar with thorn, but suoh as they wsro they would be given. He was happy to assure tho honourable member for Rangittkei that no suoh suggestions as he had r0 » flr " !d to hud beon inado by the Governmont Th« Government had dono what they had thought right i they never thought it right to acquiesoe in any treaohorous modo of prooodure. Ho did not think the subject required any further discussion They weuld offer no opposition to th» production of the papers, if the House wished for them, »nd they woro quite in tho hands of the Houie in tho matter.

Mr Crkioiitoh wished merely to say a word in reply to what had fallen from honourable members. He was latiilled with tho promiao given by the Government that they would placo the information before too publio. H« would say again th»t he regretted that tht Qoveramsat had not placed that intoraation fully Jwforo ths House, and

so hare prevented any honourable member asking in this way for it. He was quite aware, when he put the motion on the Notice Paper, that he would likely be censured by honourable members on both sides of the House. In doing so, j however, he had done what he simply considered to be his duty, and he had merely expressed the views which he conscientiously held. If he had formed a wrong impression from the* terms o! the letter of the Government, the fault did not rest with him. The ambiguity was in the language of the document, and the misapprehension, be believed, would be moßt natural to the mind of any unbiassed person in reading that letter. The terms of the proclamation were, that a sum of LI, 000 was to be paid for Tito Kowaru, whether brought in dead or alive, but it was not to be paid if he were killed in any general engagement, The inference to be drawn from that was fairly what he had stated. He was happy to hear from the honourable member at the head of the Government the statement that such a thing was not intended. It was another proof of the necessity of the Government dealing candidly with the House, and not leave honourable members to eke out the information in bits and scraps from time to time. He did not think that anything that had fallen from the honourable member from Mataura required any comment from him. He was not a Maori worshipper, and never had been, and he was quite prepared to abide by the judgment of the Houßeand the rublic in any comparisons in that respect that might be instituted between his conduct and the conduct and antecedents of that honourable member. He was perfectly satisfied with the information given by the Government, and he had no doubt the papers when placed before the House would justify them in the course they had taken. Motion put and negatived.