LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL.

Otago Daily Times, Issue 15826, 26 July 1913, Page 4

LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL.

THE REFORM BILL.

SECOND READING DEBATE,

(Per United Press Association-.)

WELLINGTON, July 25. The second-reading debate on the Legislative Council Bill was resumed to-day uy ttie Hon. Mr Oarncross. He 6aid the subject was one that no reasonable man could approach light-heartedly. Their clear duty was to endeavour tp arrive at a conclusion which was in the best interests 01 the dominion. Ho believed the Government was sincere in presenting its Bill, but it was sincerity in an unworthy cause. The charges of insincerity made against the Government were, however, tue iirst indications of that party spirit which must prevail if the Chamber were made an deceive- one. He differed from the Hon. Mr Sinclair in so far as he could see no mid. course, as that gentleman evidently did. Either tne Uouncil must be an elective chamber or a nominative one. The partial election and partial nomination would raise a barrier of casto between members, and that "was a position in which he would not care to be a participant, 'there was caste in the Council now, but it was nothing to what would prevail if the system advocated by Mr Sinclair ever became a reality. It would be impossible for men elected and men nominated to the Chamber to regard themselves as equal. If, therefore, they proposed to elect half the Council, why not elect the whole? His position was "clear cut. He was no believer in two elective Houses. He was in favour of the nominative system, and, therefore, much a 6 he might like to do it, ho could not vote for the Bill. He quoted from accepted authorities to show that in no country was a second chamber elected on tho basis proposed in this Bill. An elective chamber would not furnish better men to the Legislative Council, because the best, ablest, and noblest men of the country would not consent to go through the mud and mire of an election. Tho Government had not yet shown in what respect tile Council was lacking in merit that its constitution 6hould be thus altered. He doctoral that there was no better system for the purpose of constituting a second chamber than tho'nominative system. He stood iirm on that point. Ho condemned the bitterness of party elections, and assured members that if they passed the Bill they would only revive in every district the bitterness that had been seen in tho Grey electorate during the past week. They might not think so, but that was what would happen. He denied that there was any party in the Council at present, and claimed that the legislation of the Government had received the fairest treatment. There had been no obstruction, and ho censured the Minister for implying last year that he anticipated obstruction. The question of an elective Council was never seriously before the country. It was. not this proposal that brought the Reform party into power. It had won on the freehold, and on that alone. He objected to the Government's attempt to experiment with proportional representation on the Council, It might be applied to the other House if it was a good thing. ' The Council was being thrown to the wolves. The Government was "trying it on the dog." The Minister might succeed in making the Chamber an elective one, but in doing it he would destroy tho constitution under which it had done such faithful work in the dominion.

The Hon. Mr George deprecated haste in dealing with the most important measure thai the Council had ever had to deliberate upon. The delay of one year had enabled the Minister to so improve his Bill that if another year was given him he would be able to still further im- [ prove it. Although he was a believer in I the nominative system he had come to the conclusion that democratic communities such as we wore favoured an elective Upper House, and he was prepared to give way to that extent; but ho would not vote for a second chamber electod on the same basis as the popular chamber. The Bill proposed largo districts, and tlie reault would ho that every member of the Upper House would represent larger territory and more people than the members of the Lower House, and it followed that the Upper House must become the stronger. He favoured a property qualification as the basis of its franchise, and he was against proportional representation. To ask tho ordinary elector to make a preference, out of perha.ps 50 candidates was absurd. It meant that the "ticket" system would prevail, and the towns would swamp the country. Men would therefore be elected by cliques and. not because of their representative qualifications. '• The expense of elections would be ruinous. Tho ballot-paper would be obscure and complicated. The Reform Government was Still perpetuating the special representation of the Maoris, although it professed anxiety to have one law for the Maoris and pakeha, as far as the land was concerned. He adversely criticised the provision for dealing with Bills rejected by one Houso and passed by the other, declaring the whole thing to be the setting up of a single chamber with all the expense of a bi-cameral one: He intended to vote for the second reading, in the hope that a committee would knock the Bill into shape. He would, however, never vote for a second chamber elected on the same franchise as was used for the Lower House.

The. debato was adjourned on the motion of Mr Eanrehaw.