PAINFUL SCENE IN THE HOUSE.

Otago Daily Times, Issue 11506, 19 August 1899, Page 5

PAINFUL SCENE IN THE HOUSE.

THE RUSSELL LAND GRANT.

A HEATED DEBATE.

(Fitou Our Own Coehesfondejtt.l

WELLINGTON, August 18.

The financial debate dragged slowly and smoothly along till this evening;, when a very exciting incident occurred.

Mr Carson, in the course of his speech, referred at some length to Sir Carroll's speech at Wanganui, in the course of which the Minister brought up what is known as tho Russell' land grant, and compared it with the Wrigg decoration, . saying people living in glass houses should not throw stones. Mr Carson stated that Mr Carroll dared not during his speech on the Financial Statement refer to the matter in Captain Kussell's presence. After Mr Carson sat down, Mr Carroll rose :'to make :i personal explanation. Captain ilussoll wanted to know how far the explanation was going. They had better set apart a time and let the whole matter be gone into. On Mr Carroll again rising, Captain Russell once more rose to a point of order. The Speaker, however, stated that Mr Carroll was entitled to a personal explanation. Captain Russell once mdVe rose, and contended that the Standing Orders were being violated. Tho Sieaker said he could not have his ruling challenged, and Mr Carroll, amid numerous interruptions, proceeded with a lengthy explanation of what led him to refer to the Russell land grant. Mr Carson, in reply,' contended that he had in no way misrepresented Mr Carroll. Captain Russell then rose and asked what was his position? Tho Speaker said he could make a personal cxnlanation. Captain Russell said something about a violation of the Standing Orders, and then dramatically tin-owing the book of Standing Orders, from which he was quoting, on to the table, he added, with emphasis:-—"Then I will say something." Speaking with intense feeling, he said ho thought Ministers had degraded public- life by making , statements about, him which they knew to be absolutely contrary to fact. Mr Carroll here got up, and said: "He has charged us with absolutely degrading public life."—(Hear, hear.) However, as Captain Russell had not finished, he sat down again. Captain Russell again stated that Ministers had degraded political life by tho charges they had made about himself and family. Tho honourable member ("honourable," forsooth) compared his (Captain Russell's) action in endeavouring to get that which ho was justly entitled to with tho conduct of the Government in bestowing a military decoration without rhvmo or reason. Ministers had.stated as a fact that which, if they bad read tho papers, tho must have known to be untrue. They knew it was untrue when they said it. The Speaker said ho would not allow Captain Russoll to use these words. Captain Russell then said they deliberately stated what they knew was not a fact. This also was disallowed by the Chair. Captain Russell went on to say that they knew full well that the bill dealing with the land grant was introduced by Sir Donald M'Lean, therefore- the statement that it was introduced by his (Captain Russell's) own father was absolutely without foundation, and they know it to be without foundation when they stated it. Could anything, he asked, be more contemptible? At this stage Mr Seddon, who had been absent from the Chamber when tho scene commenced, arrived.

Captain Russell, pointing to Messrs Seddon, Carroll, and Hall-Jones, said: " They have degraded public life, those, three Ministers sitting in a row. The leader of the Opposition continued speaking forcibly and with great emotion. He charged Ministers with baying repeatedly tried in a contemptible manner to wound him and hit at him through his own old father. That was contemptible. There could be nothing more disgraceful to public life than things of that sort. Here Mr Hall-Jones went over to the Premier, and engaged him in conversation. Tina made Captain Russell pause in the thread of his remarks, and address himself to Mr Hall-Jones, who was interrupting:1 "Will you be good enough not to talk in front of me, sir?" Mr Hall-Jones not sitting down, Captain Russoll added, with emphasis, " Will you sit down and got out of the way. Mr Kail-Jones, apparently somewhat discomfited, promptly retired to his own seat, remarking to Captain Russell, " Your not m the '""cTritain Russell: No. but the lion. Minister for Public Works would bo kept in order in a very short time if ho ever got into the army.—(Hear, hoar.) Air Soddon here rose and complained that there should be ibis objection to Ministers conversing when there was no interruption. Captain Russell: Put you did interrupt

Mr Seddon: I beg the lion, member's par don. There was no interruption.

The Speaker here interposed. He said the lion, member for Hawke's Bay had had a great deal of provocation—(hoar, hear) —in regard to statements made about certain transactions that had taken place some years ago. He asked that the conversation with the Premier should cease, and said the, lion, member for Hawke's Bay would be allowed to proceed.

Captain Russell then^yent into the question at some length, explaining fully the facts in regard to tho land grant as already stated by him several times on the public platform. He said that Ministers in stating- on the public platform that he got what he was not entitled to, and that it was through a. bill introduced by his father, were stating what they knew at the time to be directly contrary to fact. These Ministers, he added with considerable

heat, were attacking a man through his dead father about a transaction that took place in 1863, 31 year.- ago, lons before he (Captain Russell) entered public life. He said it was contemptibly mean. Mr Monk: They're very badly off. Captain Russell: Well, I don't rare.twopence about that, but it is disgraceful when they have to grovel in the very mud to endeavour to injure a political opponent. I am always charged with not being rough enough in debate. Heaven save us for coming now to such a, state of things as will destroy our public- life, when Minister.-! will, out of puro vindictive spite, stoop to strike a man through hir.. family connection*. Parliament lias changed altogether if things lika that wereallowed to happen. He challenged the Hon. Mr Carroll to refer the whole question of the land grant to any tl-rea honourable men out of the Mouse, and it these men found that he (Captain Russell) had acted m any way dishonourable or discreditable, he would give his word to retire from Parliament, and if ho was found' not to have done anything dishonourable, the Eon.. Mr Carroll should retire from public life.—(Opposition " Hear, hear*,' and a Voice: "That's a challenge.' The Hou. Mr Carroll, however, remained silent, and the challenge, went unaccepted). Captain Jaisseil continued that if the t,lron S esr language that jt was possible to use could bo used against tnose gentlemen opposite, it would fail to give expression to what an honourable man would have a right to feel about them.—(Hear, hear. Jlr Seddon here rose, but the Speaker said it was now near the supper adjournment, and as there had been a good deal of foeling and heat, he would leave the chair and givo hon. members affected a chance of speaking. On the Hou=e resuming, he hoped by that time the feeling that had been engendered would have cooled down. After the supper adjournment tbe Premier rose, and, in answer to several challenges, ho explained that he was speaking with the consent of the Speaker. He said Captain Russell was guilty of rudeness in the way ho had spoken to Mr Hall-Jones while the latter was speaking to him (the Premier). Captain Russell: I was speaking of and to the hon. °-entleman, and he deliberately turned his 'back on me, and if that is not rudeness I don't know what is. . Tho Premier went, on to say that_ lie, too, had been attacked through his relatives, and would preserve his honour just as well as Captain Russell. Members on the Ministerial side of the House had even been compared with murderers. Things were coming to such a pass in tho House that one result would bo that members would have to protect themselves in the good old English fashion that never failed.—(Laughter.) Mr Crowther: You mean tho shillelagh.— (Moro laughter.) ~,,-, The Premier wont on to state that he had never brought Captain Russell's . honour m question. Mr Buchanan: You have; I have heard you over and over again myself. Mr Seddon went, ou to read from Hansard certain matters connected with the passing of the bill. His explanation of the circumstances was continually challenged. He said that after carefully going into tho whole circumstances one could only come to one. conclusion—"spoils to the victors." Captain Russell, he said, was a very fortunate man. He again proceeded to justify the' action of Ivlr Carroll in contrasting the Russell grant with the granting of the New Zealand Cross to Wrigg. Things had not occurred in Now Zealand Parliament that occurred in other Parliaments. New Zealand still hold the first place, and he hoped the leader of the Opposition would co-operative wih him in maintaining the dignity of Parliament. The Hon. Mr Hull-Jones followed with another personal explanation, and declared that whatever he had said in regard to tho Russell land grant was said under the greatest! provocation. He declared that if a committee of the House decided that Captain Russell was entitled to a single acre of the grant he (Mr Hall-Jones) would resign his seat if Captain Russell would do so if. the committee decided he was not so entitled. That was a 1 challenge. Captain Russell, referring to quotations made from Hansard by Ministers, said their strict desire for party honour might have led them to quote both sices of the case, and ho proceeded to read. extracts from speeches on the other side, quoting from Mr Domett. Captain Russell said: "It was in any case only a question of technical limit of time for qualification, and not a question of immorality or dishonour at all. It had been said that the bill had been carried on the casting vote of his father, whereas as a matter of fact it was carried 'in the Council by. a majority of 2 to 1, having passed the Lower House without opposition. Ministers had said he had got 800 acres. He believed what ho got was actually 117 acres. He had got a man to search the records in Hawke's Bay, with that result, but he did not want to hide the fact that he got £500 worth. Captain Russell added that Mr Hall-,Jones had also stated that his (Captaiu Russell's) father was a Minister when the act was passed. This was not correct. Mr Carroll said it was true he had referred to. the Russell military grant, but he had never done so in a personally offensive way. He had used it as a personal argument. Was Captain Russell's challenge as to one or other going out of Parliament if he could or could not prove certain facts? Captain Russell: No. If you could show that I did anything dishonourable. Mr Carroll said ho did not say tho hon. sentlr 'an had .done anything dishonourable. He exonerated the hon. gentleman altogether from that, but under political influence he maintained he got more land than he was entitled to. ' ■ Mr Rolleston: No; not more than he was entitled to. The matter was then allowed to.drop, ana soon after midnight the House rose.