GENERAL ASSEMBLY.

Otago Daily Times, Issue 7637, 10 August 1886, Page 2

GENERAL ASSEMBLY.

LEGISLATIVE COU-NCJL. Monday, August 9. The Council met at 2.30 p.m. TIIK LOAN 11II.L.

Sir F. WHITAKER brought up the report of the Scloet Committee/appointed to inquire into the allocation to certain railways of portions of the loan proposed to he raised by authority of tlie House ot R_prc.Tetitalives. Tho following is tho substance of the report:—" (1.) That all the railways iuthe schedule appear to havo been specially authorised by act with tho exception of the 'Helensville lino extendiug northwards. Only four miles, however, of the proposed extension has been authorised. The extension proposed is from Helensville to Omapero Lako. (2.) The committee is of opinion that a separate act of authorisation should precede every grant of money, otherwise the appropriation would be nugatory. According to the evidence of the Uiieler-secretary of Public Works, a bill has been presented to the House of Representatives, to authorisesuch extension of the Helensville line to Omapere. (3.) By the same bill it was proposed to authorise a line to the Oamaru breakwater. No sum appeared in the schedule for this line. (4.) The object of the bill appeared to be to authorise another railway, and make good the land taken for another work. (5.) The names in the schedule are not the same as those in the authorising acts, and a question would arise as to whether a Hue could be identified. It might become a question to decide in the Supreme Court if anyone should take the trouble to raise the question as to the identification of such lines. ,£150,000 of the sum proposed to bo raised would be for sidings anil not for construction of main lines. It was proposed to uso as far as possible materials already in hand for the construction of scheduled lines. The function of the committee was entirely to determine whether the law had been complied with, which was a function entirely apart from consideration of a money bill; and the Council would not be doing its duty by voting for a work which was not properly authorised by law." The report was adopted and ordered to be printed.

The Hon. Mr REYNOLDS moved that the bill be committed presently, although not on the Order Paper. In committee the report could be discussed. He would not move the third reading till tho following day, and believed that under the .circumstances, anel as the session was so far advanced, added to the additional fact that the Californian mail would leave on Saturday next, he hoped tho motion would be agreed to. The SPEAKER intimated that, under the circumstances, there was no reason why the motion should not be agreed to. The bill was ordered to be committed presently. OTIU.E HILLS. The Government Loans to Local Bodies Bill (No. 2) was committed, reported, read a third time, and passed. The House considered the amendments in tho Sheep Act. The amendments in tho bill wero agreed to by the Council. The Mining Bill was further considered iv committee, and reported with amendment.The Registration of Deeds and Instruments Bill was committed, progress reported; and leave given to sit again. The Hon. Mr BUCKLEY moved the third reading of the Public Bodies' Leaseholds Bill. Sir F. WHITAKER objected to the bill, as it sought to make a number of changes in the existing aot, [without (giving anything as au equivalent for. it. The debate was interrupted at 5 o'clock.

{Evening Sitting. ' The Couucil resumed at 7,30 p.m. bills dealt with.

The debate on third reading of the Public Bodies' Leaseholds Bill was continued.

The Hon. Mr BUCKLEY trusted the third reading would be agreed to, as it was a measure which he felt assured would provide for the benefit of public bodies and the public at large.

The Hon. Dr POLLEN intended to oppose the third reading. What he objected to in the bill was that exceptional advantages to tenants of public bodies would not be extended to Crowu pastoral tenants. .The Hon. Mr M'LEAN, whilst admitting that many persons who ought to be relieved from their liabilities had been badly treated, objected to the bill as it sought to give relief to shameless persons who, instead of trying to get rid of their liabilities by making use of their leases, availed themselves of lobbying members in order to get the Government to bring in a public bill for their own private relief. The Hon. Mr REYNOLDS did not like the bill as it had been introduced into the Council, and therefore he had refrained from taking any part in the previous discussion on it. However, he felt convinced that if the bill did not become law, many of the public bodies would lose Government tenants and the latter would be ruined. He would not object to the bill beiug recommitted with a view to' being amended, but rather than ihe bill should be lost he would vote for the third reading. After further discussion, tbe amendment was lost on the voices, anel motion for the third reading was carried by 16 to 14, and the bill passed. The SPEAKER ruled that, taking for his precedent Standing Order of the House of Lords passed in 1849, a mouey bill could where it related to offenders be amended, aud for tbis reason he gave his ruling. The Beer Duty Bill was committed, reported with verbal amendment, and read a third time and passed. The Government Life Insurance Bill, Local Bodies' Finance Bill, and Hospital and Charitable Amendment Bill were received from the House and read a first time.

The Otago Harbour Leasing Bill was further considered in committee and reported with amendments.

The New Zealand Loan Bill was committed and was reported for the following day. The Council agreed with certain verbal amendments in the Coal Mines Bill.

The Council adjourned at 10.5 till the following day.

HOUSE OP KEPBESENTATIVES,

Monday, August 9. Tho House met at 2.30 p.m. THIRD HEADING.

The Local Bodies' Finance and Powers Bill was read a third time and passed.

CIVIL SERVICE REFORM BILL

Sir R. STOUT said he did uot quito agree with the amendments made by the Legislative Council in the Civil Servico Reform Bill as to nomination of cadets. The Council had altered the bill in that respeot, and instead of making appointments by members of the House a provision was inserted for appointments by competitive examination. He would move that the amendments be agreed to, although he did not altogether agree with them. Yet, considering tbe late stage of the ses-ion, he thought it better than to abandon the bill altogether.

Mr ROLLESTON said the bill was altogether a now bill by the amendments made in it. Ho suggested it should be withdrawn. Mr DOWNTE STEWART hoped the bill would be withdrawn, as there was very little of the original bill left. Major ATKINSON took a similar view of the matter. He hoped the Premier would tell the Houie whether the bill in its present shape would carry out his promise to make a saving of £25,000 or £30,000.

Sir R. STOUT thought it better to accept the bill in its present form than to have no bill at all. As to tho saving he had spoken of, the clause he relied onto effect that saving—namely, the one for the appointment of a commissioner to report on the cost of living—had been struck out. With respect to competitive examinations, he should take care that boys from countiy schools would have the same advantage as those from other schools. Tho only important amendment made in the bill was the one relating to thoso examinations. He hoped the House would agree to amendments made by the Council.

The amendments were thou agreed to, THE OOLD DUTY BILL.

The Hon. Mr LA.RNACH brought up tho report of the Privilege Committee on tho rejection of the Gold Export Duty Abolition Bill by the Council, recommending that all financial measures should be conjoined in one bill.

The report was ordered to be considered on Wednesday next.

NOTICE,

Mr O'CONOR gave notice to ask the Government if they would consider the advisability of consulting M. Pasteur, tho French scientist, on the question of dealing with the rabbit and small bird pests by inoculation with virus.

HOSI'ITALS AND CHAUITAULE INSTITUTIONS HILL

Mr R. STOUT moved that the Hospitals Charitable Institutions Bill be recommitted for consideration of clauses 3 and 4.

Mr BUCHANAN nioved as an addition— " That the clause relating to the separation of Wairarapa from Wellington be also considered." Mr WHYTE moved—" That the question of separating Piako from the Thames district and adding it to Waikato be considered." Mr WALKER moved—"That sub-section of sectiou 34 be also reconsidered."

Sir R. STOUT said he could not accept any of tho amouelments proposed; if the bill wero split up in this manner he should be compelled to drop it. Mr Buchanan's amendment was carricel by 32 to 30.

On Mr Whyto's amendment being put, Sir R. STOUT moved that the debate be adjourned, as ho did not want the bill to be destroyed. Mr WHYTE denied that the bill would be destroyed by the separation of those districts. Mr TAYLOR objected to the alterations proposed to be made in the bill, and said Sir Geo. Grey had voted for its recommittal against the interests of tho people.

Major ATKINSON hoped the Premier would endeavour to meet the wishes of representatives of country districts in this matter, who were only doing their duty. He hoped tho debate would be adjourned, and that by next day the Premier would see his way to agreeing to the proposed amendments.

After further discussion,

Sir R. STOUT said he found there was no such clause in tho bill as that proposed to be. recommitted by Mr Buchanan, and thereforo withdrew his motion for the adjournment of the debate.

Mr BUCHANAN then said.witb the Speaker's permission, he would movo to recommit the bill for consideration of a new clause.—Lost by 29 to 27.

Mr WHYTE said as the House was evidently against him, ho would withdraw his amendment.

Mr WALKER also withdrew his amendment.

Tho bill was then recommitted for consideration of the clauses proposed by the Premier,

who moved an amendment making subsidies on contributions from local authorities pound for pound.—Agreed to. The bill was reported with amendments, read a third time, and passed.

OOVERNMENT INSURANCE ASSOCIATION UU.L. On tho ihotion for the third reading of tho Government Lifo Insuranco Bill,

Mr HATCH moved that tho bill bo recommitted for consideration of a new clause providing that agencies may be established _in the United Kingdom for the sale of annuities for life and for thu appropriation of money for that purpose. Sir J. VOGEL had no doubt tbis proposal would bo a profltablo 0110 for the Insurance department. When Mr Hatch had consulted him 011 tho su'jeet ho informed him that owing to tho circumstances under which tho department wns being taken over by the Government, ho did not think tho House would be propared to accept a proposal to extoud the business in tho direction indicated, although it might bu desirable to havo the matter ventilated. He thought, however, they would not bo justified in going into it tbis session. Ho should nelviso Mr Hatch to be content with getting the matter discussed, anel that it should then stand over, at any rate, till next session, by which time it Could be more fully considered. Major ATKINSON said ho should havo to voto against thu new clauses, although he had very little doubt that the department would eventually extend its operations in that direction, which he admitted would be n profitable uudortaking. Ho was of opinion, however, tbat a proposal of this nature should come from the Government, anel only after mature consideration. After further discussion, tho amendment was lost and tho bill was read a third time and passed, Sir J ULIUS VOGEL moved the second reading of tho Stamp Act Amendment Bill, which was to remedy some mistake in the existing act relating to miners' rights and also to give relief to those acquiring Nativo lands, by which certain deeds would not be liable to a penalty.—Agreed to. The House went into committeo on the bill. The discission on tho new clause proposed y Mr WI PERE was not concluded at the 5.30 adjournment. Evening Sitting. The House resumed at 7.30 p.m. in committee. The Stamp Act Ameuelinent Bill was further considered in committeo. Sir JULIUS VOGEL moved tho following new clause in respect of laud for which title is obtained uuder or by virtue of tho 21th aud 25th sectious of " The Native Lauds Administration Act ISSfi " :—" Tho several duties chargeallo under ' The Stamp Act 1832 Amendment Act ISSS' shnll be due and payable as soon as tho land becomes vesteel by conveyance on sale or by lease in the purchase or lease respectively, aud section -10 of ' Tho Stamp Act IS32' shall apply thereto accordingly. Nothing in the section contained shall establish any claim to a refund of any stamp duties of penalties already paid."—Carried. The bill was reported as amended.

NEW BILL. The Railway Authorisation Bill was brought down by message from the Governor and read a first tiins.

REPORTS.

The committeo appointed to tlraw up reasons for dealing with the Council's amendments in the Harbour Bill brought up their report. After some discussion, the reasous for disagreeing with the ameudments were agreed to. The Joint Library Committee's report was ordered to bo considered next sitting day. DISAGREEING WITH TUE COUNCIL. The amendments made by the Legislative Council lii the Counties and Municipal Corporations Acts Amendment Bills were considered. Several ameudments were disagreed with, and conlraittecs were appointed to draw up reasons for the disagreement. representation aill. Sir R. STOUT moved the second reading of the Representation Bill. He said the principle of tho bill had previously been affirmed in this House—viz., the automatic readjustment of representation by a hoard. lie regretted that the bill of 1879 had not been passed into law. The two main principles of the bill were—lst, the population basis; 2nd, the appointment of a board. Ho did not believe that thero coulel he iitiy satisfactory basis of representation except the ■ one of Jlopuliition, aud he honed this principle would be affirmed as a guido to all future distribution of representation. He hoped the House would look beyond the narrow limits of their own districts, and deal with the large question of principle. As to the constitution of tho board thero might be a diffierence of opinion, but he had chosen one which would be impartial. He, however, left that to the House as an open question, and would be satisfied with the affirmation of the principle. He though it was right to provide that the three unofficial members should not bo eligle for ■ election to Parliment for a certain period. This would prevent any accusation of bias against the board. As to the question of city electorates, ho had always disapproved of single city constituencies. Their need not be any uneasiness as to a session next year, as the Government would call the session together as early as practicable. Major ATKINSON congratulated the Premier on his determination to go on with the bill this session. He agreed to the two main principles of the bill, and saw a great difficulty in devising any other basis of reprpscntation than that of population. There was the leaving out a minority unrepresented, but he thought it would be better to have some proportionate S3'stem than to go on with the present single constituencies. He hoped the principle of the bill would be affirmetl without much talk, and thon it could be amended. He thought the country should have equal representation with towns. There would be a conflict between the time of tho existence of parliament and tho census unless there was a return to a quinquennial parliament, ant T.he confessed that the triennial parliaments had proved to be too short. As to the board, he would prefer to have it limited to the two official members. He thought it was decidedly desirable to havo electorates with moro than one member. He would like to see a varioty in our electorates, but that would entail a great deal of discussion. He thought the bill ought to be passeel this session without elealing with city electorates, leaviug that for noxt session.

Mr PEACOCK agreed with the principle of the bill. As to the number of members, he would be satisfied to see it reduced, but the colony was progressing, and the present number would not in a short time be more than sufficient. He would like to see in this bill some provision whereby minorities would not be swamped. He believed a radical change in our present system of representation ought to be made, but he thought the question of city electorates might be left till the other question was disposed of satisfactorily. Mr MOSS thought the question was one which should be most carefully considered. He agreed with almost every proposal contained in the bill. He was in ■ favour of the number of members being reduced if all the local works were got rid of, but until that was done ho was rather in favour of increasing the number to 100. As soon as the local works wero got rid of he would favour a reduction in the number of members to 50. He agreed with triennial parliaments, and had fought to have parliaments made twoyearly. Members ought to be turned out at least every three years. He did not at all believe in minority representation, because if the miuority was a good one it would soon produce a majority. He would not say anything about the board, but would leave that to be decided in committee. As to the district?, it would be desirable to mako them coterminous with counties, so that the same electoral rolls could be used for both. This would tend to simplify elections very materially. Mr J. M'KENZIE agreed with the principles of the bill, but objected to the amalgamation of city electorates. When in committee he intended to move that the number of members be reduced to 75, which he considered would conduce to economy. Dr NEWMAN paid he congratulated the Premier on bringing in so excellent a measure. He would like to point out that in clause 3 there was no hint thrown out that members of either House of Parliament could not sit on the board, He agreed with the population basis as being the best that could be devised. He also agreed with the proposal to amalgamate city electorates and hoped it would be adopted. He would like to see the Southern Maori electorate amalgamated with some of thfi districts around Cook Strait, as the Northern [Maori members represented over 13,000 electors each, against 1200 odd electors represented by the Southern Maori members. Mr WAKEFIELD objected to goiug back to double and tiiplo electorates, unless they had aelifierent system of voting to that which now existed. He would liko to see all plumping done away with, and each elector compelled to vote for as many members as were required. This system had worked satisfactorily in New South Wales. Colouel TRIMBLE objected to the amalgamation of city electorates. If it was right to amalgamate the cities, then it was illogical to say they should be limited to four members if their population entitled them to more.

Mr SCOBIE MACKENZIE said there was considerable distinction to be drawn between town and country representation. The towns kid much better means of organisation than country districts, and therefore some sort of allowance should be maele, as was done in ISBI for country constituencies. Population, he held ,_ should be tho main basis, but not the solo basis. It was not tho sole basis in any part of the world. He approved of the board, as it was likely to get riel of a goocl deal of acrimonious discussion in the House. . . ~,,,■ Mr LEVESTAM was of opinion that the population basis should not be the sole basis of representatiou, although ho admitted it should be an important factor in it. He would be quite agreeable to have the number of members reduced provided they were taken away from the cities. It was very easy for the towns to have their wants made known, but tho same facilities'wero not found in country districts. He thought if the number of members was reduced it would givo the Government of tho day an over-balancing power. Two representatives for a city were quite sufficient for all purposes; but it was very different in tho country, as it took iv some cases many weeks before a country member could go amongst ail his constituents. He was quite convinced that the bill would pass its second reading, but that it would go no further as there were already signs of dissension on certain points. If the Government were sincere in the passing of the bill tliey would have brought it down at an earlier period of the sesuion. He would not consent to any reduction of members unless the reduction wore made from the cities

RUSSELL objected to the bill because it made population the solo basis ot representation. Ho objected also to the amalgamation of city electorates proposed in tho bill, and be- _ cause it did not provide for special representation for tbo Maori people. Ho conteudeil that towns were represented in tho House absolutely out of proportion to what thoy were entitled to. Tho members of the Ministry also wero representatives of towu constituencies. Ho thought there was no reason why Maori representation should not be abolished, mid tlio Maoris placed on the same electoral rolls as themselves. Ho bolieved tho Native intorest would bo better served if two or threo gentlemen who understood tho Native language well were to como to tho Houso to represent them. He felt it to bo hopeless to obstruct the second reading of this bill, but the member for Moeraki had his eutire sympathy iv the niotiou he proposed to mako as to reduction. Ho should voto for tho second reading of the bill. Mr TAYLOR objected to the amalgamation of city electorates.

Mr GUINNESS thought it was not necessary to disturb tho wholo of the electorates of tho colony as was proposed by tho bill. He opposed the bill because tbe Premier and Opposition members had declared their intention ol supporting a reduction of members. 110 considered the principle of allowing towns to havo tho same voice as the country would be most unfair.

Mr SEDDON moved tho adjournment of the debato. , , , The Hon. Mr BALLANCE hoped the debate would not bo adjourned. Ho thought there was a general desire on tho part of the Houso against it. The motion was lost by 32 to 21. Mr KERU hoped the House would not pass tho bill, anel thought it would bo doing a wise action lv postponing it for a year. Mr GORE saw no necessity for forcing tlm bill through this session, as it was a bill that required to be thoroughly discussed. Ho would therefore move that tbo Houso should adjourn. Major ATKINSON suggested that as the session was so near its close they might affirm the priuciplo of the bill by reading it a second time, and those members who wished to speak ou it coulel do so on tho motion for committal of the bill.

MrW. F. BUCKLAND said it was evident that many hon. members in tho House were determined to kill tbis bill, and woro olso determined that the North Island should not have equal justico with the South Island, He was altogether Opposed to the amalgamation of city electorates, and he also thought the country should have a larger representation than towns. Mr HURSTHOUSE regretted that Mr Bucklaud had infused au angry spirit betiVeen the North and South iv this debate. Ho had always opposed representation according to population, and should always do so because it was wrong in principle. The motion for adjournment was lost. . Mr ROSS moved the adjournment of the de-" bate.

The Hon. Mr BALLANCE said he understood a great many members wished to speak on tho bill, and as it was evident no further business coulel be clone that night he should not object to the atljotlniment. The House roso at 1.20 a.m.