PROVINCIAL COUNCIL

Otago Daily Times, Issue 2005, 3 June 1868, Page 5

PROVINCIAL COUNCIL

TUESDAY, June 2nd

Tho Speaker took tho chair at seven o'clock.

SUPPLY.

The House went into Committee of Supply ; Mr Haughton in the chair.

Mr REYNOLDS said that havinc? had no opportunity of stating whether ho was a supporter of tho present Government or not, ho took ihia opportunity of declaring that he was a (supporter of the Government—(laughter)—and he would give his reasons for doing so. Ho knew that it was the opinion of some hon. members that, as Speaker, ho should tako no part at all in questions before the House.—(No, no.) In the chair, he had always endeavoured to deal wii.li thorough fairness to all parties. But he demurred altogether to the idea that, because he occupied the chair, ho was to be precluded from giving full and fair expression to his political opinions. He represented the largest constituency in tho Province—ho might say the largest and wealthiest constituency in tho Colony.—("Hear, hear,'* "No, no," and " Question.") Honorable members might have their own opinions, but ho could prove it. Not even for tho honor of holding tho position which he did, could he consent to deprive his constituency of his services. His constituency had reposed confidence in him for a period of fourteen or fifteen years—a fact of which he was proud, for that trust had been reposed in him without any solicitation on his part to secure their votes at the time of election. Ho had left it entirely to the constituency, and they always did him the honor of placing him in a good position—at the top of the poll.—("Hear, hear," and laughter.^ He considered that it would bo gross ingratitude on his part were he to neglect their interests, and the interests of the whole Province; for the interests of Dunedin were bound up with the interests of tho Province generally, and ho was astonished that hon. members had such contracted ideas as to believe that the interests of all parts of the Province wero not identical. Vs Speaker, he had heard all the debates, and from those debates ho was enabled to judge as to the real position of parties ; and he had no hesitation in declaring that, bo far as he could see, the j Opposition had been a factious Opposition. —-(Oh, oh-) He had taken a few notes I of tho arguments adduced—if arguments they could be called—by the parties in opposition to the policy of the present Government, or the Government which came down to the House. On the motion of want of confidence in the Government, tho hon. member for tho Chitha (Mr Thomson) made the charge that the Government granted tho oaatoralleases under tho Waste Lands Act, 1866. The hon. member, if he had taken the trouble to inform himself, would have found that those leases were nofe granted by this Government, but by a previous Council, and Superintendent, and before the present Council and Superintendent wgr§

elccte<i>.Consequently, the remarks of the luspjtinQmber did not apply. Tho hon. meicljlilffllao accused the Executive of Isetting asMa the old system of Hundreds. So far as ho could see, that charge! was without foundation. Tho Government had,_ on tho very lirst day o£ tho session, proposed a Select Committee to inquirajß to where Hundreds should be proclaimed. Tho Opposition objected to tho appointment of this Select Committee. —[Mr Broww : Its composition. 1 If that was, tho objection, an amendment substituting certain names for others could, very simply, have been proposed. But the hon. member for tho Taieri (Mr Reid) who took a conspicuous part as tho Mvocate of tho Hundreds system, when named as a member of tho Select Committee, refused to act ; and Mr Thomson, who was then appointed, was certainly very lukewarm as a member of that Committee. He wan not at all anxious to proceed with the duties entrusted to hirr.—-(Oh, oh!) jln f:ut, tho Committee, although mo.it of its members had declared themselves in favor of Hundreds, could only bo got together with tho greatest difficulty ; and had it not been for tho appointment of Mr Sibbald and Mr Hntcheson, who had attended to their duties, the report would not havo been brought up so early as it had been. The hon. member for tho Taieri had blamed tho Government for selling land in blocks, outside of Hundreds. Those blocks of land were selected under tho Waste Lands Act.—[Mr Kkto : What clause of tho Act?] The''B3rd clause. With regard to tho objections of the hon. member for the Clutlia to the Government " thru&ting into the market" bush, cattle, and sheep reserves, and the remainder'^f old Hundreds, he (Mr 'Reynolds) Wi»»gpt it was the duty of the Government to' Carry out tho Waste Lands Act fairly ; and, if those reserves were unnecessary for public purposes, tho Government was bound to soil them. On bush reserves, ho had already Mated bin views, and, as to tho remainder of old Hundreds, ho thought it waa full time they wore offered.for jmle. If anyone wan to blame, it was a previous Council, and tho honorablo^meinbor had y&t&M, boon a party to passing tho Land-figgjlfii-,. tions of 18C6. No doubt, tho reser-^pfjad been useful to sottlcrij ; but it wmj'tho duty of tho Government not t&'giVo advantages to individuals, btifc to-provide money for public purposes. to* tho complaint of lapsed votes, anctroUia which, it was asserted, would have been better unexpended, the Government wore'bound to exercise their judgment, and to' be guided by information received from the various heads of departments. Tho vote for tho breakwater at Oamaru was an instance, and there were others aa objectionable. As to the complaint on the 'Bul>ject of tho estimated rovdhuo and ex"penditure, ho thought theme had been sufficiently explained away in tho Financial Statement. Tho appropriations last session were, no doubt, heavy ; but who vvas to blame 7 The Committee itself, by insisting upon thousands of pounds under tho Supplementary Estimates ; and Jie hoped that, with past experience, tho GrA vernment would, this session, inakoastand against any Supplementary Estimates. On tho resolution of tho honorable member for tho Taieri (Mr Reid) against the financial proposals of tho Government, tho "lnnorablo .member for the Clutha (Mr Thomson) reiterated that he opposed and would oppose tho Government; and ho made financial statements himself, which an examination of the Balance Sheet showed to bo unfounded. Tho honorable member for Waikouaiti (Mr Mitchell) opposed tho Government mainly (in hia own words) because, before tho session was commenced, ho was charged by his constituents to endeavor to put another Government into office. But no member had a right to take such instructions from his constituents, who could not bo proper judges of what had occurred during the recess. A member's duty was to como down to tho House to gain information as to what hod passed; thereupon to come to a judgment whether of not tho Government had been doing justice to tho Province as a whole ; and then to take action as a result of such judgment. The honorable member for tho Clutha (Mr Henderson) strongly condemned tho Government because they, at tho close of tho last session, plainly told the Council that they could not recommend tho declaration of certain Hundreds. Certainly, though, the Government was to bo praised for plainly stating what would be their policy. The honorable meniber complained, also, as to the West Coast Expedition ; but he should remember that tho Council last session resolved that steps should be taken to open up the West Coaat. Whether tho steps taken by the Government were judicious, or not, might appear from explanations and discussions hereafter. [Mr Reynolds commented on speeches by Messrs Mouat, Mosley, M'lndoe, Haughton, and other members.] The honorable member for tho Taieri (Mr Reid), when ho proposed his motion against the Government, argued that the Estimates for tho present year were framed in a spirit of reckless extravagance — that there was no probability of tho sums pat down as revenue being realised—and that the estimates of expenditure followed tho fallacious estimate of revenue. He (Mr Reynolds) would agree that the Estimates ■were *' framed in a spirit of reckless extravagance," if the honorable member for the Taieri waa to have liis own way in locking up the land, and generally crippling the revenue. Tho honora lo member complained that it was inteii'led to "squeeze the Land Revenue." lint it was right and necessary that thore should bo public works—and they could not bo carried out without revenue. The honorable member charged the Goi vernment with using the 83rd section of the Land Act in a way it w:va not inI tended to be used. The honornblo member was entitled to state such, an opinion as his own ; but before he could state it as a fact, he would have to ascertain the views of the metal* era of tho Council who passed the Land Resolutions of 1800, and of the members of the Assembly who took part in passing the Land Act He (Mr | Reynolds) knew throughout what would be the effect of the 83rd clause, and. he could not say that the Government htul. used tho clause in any way otb.ee than, was intended. It was becaiuo he believed that-of all the objections ur^d against theGovcrnment,there was not one valid one, that he was inchicccl to adhere to support of the Government. To give oih&v honorable members*an. opportunity

of speaking, he would move, j>ro forma, that the Chairman report progress, and ask leave to sit again. Sir THOMSON thought tho exhibition by tho honorable member for Dunedin was one of the strangest ho had witnessed in the House. When the honorable member charged tho Opposition with being " factious," it was to bo supposed ho j meant, that it had been opposition for the Bake of opposition. Ho (Air Thomson) denied that such an interpretation applied to him. Ho had opposed the Government because he did not believe in them—because he did not believe in their policy—because he believed that their policy was not at ail suited to colonise this Province. As to the honorable member's contention, that tho P;istoral Leases were granted by a previous Council and Government, he (Mr Thomson) recollected th.it the present Treasurer was Treasuier in that Government; ho believed that tho Treasurer was, in effect, the Executive; and, therefore, he thought he was justified in using the argument ho had used. The honorable member complained of his (Mr Thomson's) charge, that the Government were " /linginjc aside the whole system of Hundreds." Was not the cliargo justified, when, since the Laud Act was parsed, there had been sold 262,000 acres within Hundreds, and the Government had.taken no stops towards proclaiming fresh Hundreds? He denied the charge of.lukcwarmness on the Committee on Hundreds— nave only as far as ho was prevented from freedom of action, through the honorable memlier for Dunedin (Mr Haggitt) not keeping hin promise aa to getting together tho witnesses, and in other ways assisting the Chairman. The address of the honorable member (Mr Reynolds) was altogether so extraordinary, that it was not worth -*-hilo wasting time by further re- | ferring to it.—(Jlear t hear.) Mr REID hoped that tho honorable member (Mr Reynolds) w*»uld not suppose that anybody imagined ho hod not been impartial in his duties an Speaker : of course, nobody could suspect tho honorable member of partiality. Indeed, it waa satisfactory that tho honorable member had' so plainly stated his views ; for there had been something like doubt heretofore, as to which side,, in the late' discussions, tho• honorable" member had sympathised with. ' irtib'i|f<»iiorable member had r,ead sli^fi! e)ttractt from' the speeches of sevo.rai'pLo»or;ibl6'toeTn.lx!rs, and ho had said thai tltdso <Mm' not satisfy him as to why the Government should be opposed. The honorable member was entitled to his own opinion : but the honorable momborrnnst not suppose that ho liad used any argument in support of his opinion. He (Mr Reid) had not heard anything like argument. As to the use made of the 83rd section of the Land Act, he declined to ask any member of the late Council, or of the present Assembly, what that clause meant He would go fo the A«:t ; and instead of reading tho 83rd section, ho would read the index words to the clause. They were, "Lands in pastoral licenses not to be opentidior sale, unless same included in Hundreds.'' That was an explicit condemnation of tho Laud Policy of tho Government. Messrs Mitchell, Hutcheson, Shophord, and Reynolds, addressed the Committee. - The -jura forma motion to report progress was negatived. ~ I SoPKniNTKNUKNT*HDEI*AIUrM.BST, LI 550. On the item—Superintendent, LI2OO. Mr HAY moved that it stand at LI 000. He had every reason to believe that the Superintendent thoroughly performed the duties of hia office; but the country demanded that there should be retrench^ meut^ and these salaries were far too high—far too high, altogether. He though that LIOOO was a really yery large sum of money to. pay for this office ; and. on looking to tho other Provinces, it would bo found that, after the proposed reduction, the salary would, comparatively, bo a very high one. Tho PROVINCIAL SECRETARY (Mr J. Vogei) said that, at tho commencement of tho period of office, the Committee resolved to fix the salary at LI2OO. There was nothing in tho tjccessitica of the country which called for the proposed reduction ; and, out of doors, it might appear that a reduction was proposed bocause of something which had occurred recently.—(No, no.) It would be an exceedingly ill-advised proceeding, unless there waa some very strong reason, to be continually altering the Superintendent's salary. It would bo a far preferable course, to fix the salary by law, instead of taking a yearly vote. In Wellington, last session, it was found desirable to vote a permanent salary for the Speaker of the House of Representatives, and tho Chairman of Committees. Mr MITCHELL supported thoamend-. merit. Mr SHEPHERD reminded the Committee that, last scasion, tho salary was rained L3OO ; so that, a fter the proposed reduction, there would be an increase..of LI 00, as compared with the amount of the salary when the present Superintendent wa3 elected. Mr HUTCHESON said that nobody knew better than h«j knew, that the duties of tho office could not be better attended to than they wore by tho present Superintendent. He denied that the ■ proposed reduction could appear, outside, !to have been made. becanso the Coinmitf tee were not satisfied with the SupevinI tendont : the proposal des&rved support, in his (Mr Hiitchcson's) view, bceaiiso he believed that LIOOO a year w:ia a sufficient salary in tho present state of the Province. Mr MUIR moved that tho itera stand at L'JOO. Ho thought thai the increase made last year onghi not to have "been made. Aftor n. discussion, Mr Muh»*n nmcnrlment was put, and; waa negatived, by -1? votes-to 2. Mr Hay'ft amendment was. affirmed, thoro voting— Ayes, 14 : Messrs Barr, Brown, Clark, JVaser, Green, fay, Henderson, Mitchell, Mitir, Murray, Reid, Shcphcj.d, Thomson, Tuvnbull. Noes, 11: Messrs Bitrn.3, Driver, Dancan, Haggitt, Main, "M'DcrmM, M'lndoo, Mollison, Shand, Tayler, "Vojrol. Paiw : For, Mr Uvitohcson ; against, Mr France. Mr MITCHELL called attention to-*ho fact that tho honorable mem ex for V,raikari (Mr Driver) ha 4 voted, tho.ttjrh, hg had paired with, the honorable menoToei- f o y tlus Gold fields (Mr Motiat). Mr PBIVER adjected that he had

voted, but it was wholly fxoni thoughtlesanesss. The CHAIRMAN was Biiro that tho explanation would bo accepted—(hear, hear) ; and as tho vote had not aflbcted tho division, ho thought it would not be necessary further to notice the matter. Secretary to Superintendent, and Storekeeper, liiSO, was agreed to. Executive Council : Provincial Secretary and Treasurer, I^Boo. The PROVINCIAL SECRETARY, in proposing tho item, said that, with reference to tho salary of tho Provincial ! Secretary ami Treasurer, and of tho .Secretary for Land and Works, it had been intimated to tho Retrenchment Committee, that if reduction wero rccommonded by them, the Government would ho prepared to make it. Both ho and Mb colleague had the strongest objection to raise any question on the items ; and if any amendments wero proposed, they would take no part in tho division. Mr HAY proposed, as an amendment, that tho item l>o LOOO. Mr SHEPHERD and Mr MUTR supported tho amendment. Mr REYNOLDS supported the motion. Mr TURNIJULL, while holding that there should be a distinction between tho political and official heads of departments, concurred in the view that, a reduction should i o made, and intimated that, in tho event of the amendment being lost, he would propose, as an amendment, tho reduction of the item to L7OO.

t Mr FR.ASER was prepared to support v such mi amendment, if it were proposed. L: Mr MITCHELL objected to high '- salaries beinjj hc!d out as :% premium. >- to hon. members ambitious of oflico. 1 Mr REYNOLDS know that, in.-.tead of " being gainers by office, hem. meuiUtir|s,ion fcho Govcrment benches wljfejWoviUbly o losers; and ho w;is prepared'to-stato that - the hon. mem'en? who now held oflico as t .Provincial Secretary and Secretary for '- Land and WoxkH, had both been serious 0 losers. ' Mr BURNS, from his experience as a 3 member of tho Executive, could assert ■ that the exertions of the two hon. momfc bora referred to had been of a value far s beyond the nalary they received; and tho r country could woli alfonl to reward fairly - sucli public servants.-. 3 Mr REID supported tho amendment. {;, There had never boon any dilliculty in J obtaining tlto best men in the Council to accept oflico, acd hta anticipated no auch ! * difficulty now. Mr BURNS know tliat tho fact was j quite otherwise. Many honorable mem* \ bers, who would have been most eligible for oflicc, had declined oflico, simply on j account of tho business loan which it in- .. volvcd. ■ t ~ Tliere was some further dutcnsniim. On a division, theret was a tio ; the f voting benig— 1 Ayes, 12 : Messrs Uarr, Urown, Clark, Green, Hay, Henderson, Mitchell, Muir, j Murray, Reid, Shepherd, Thomson. , Nobs, 12 : Messrs Burns, FraHcr, Ha-^ifct, Main, M'Dermid,. M'Jndoo, Mollison, Reynolds, Seaton, Hhund, T-iyler, Turnbull. The CHAIRMAN: Tho ayes are 12, and the noea are 12. I give my voicowith 3 tho ayes.—(Applause) Secretary for Land and Worltß, LBOO. ftfr HAY moved to reduco tho sum to LC<)O. Mr RE YNOLDS did not know why tho 3 two honorable mnmbcrs (the. Provincial i Secretary and the Secretary for Land and j Works) should not* liavo voted! It was - really a vote for an oflico, and not for the > holder of it. Evidently^ there would bo 3 no good, in-discussing.tha- matter further, i if tho two honorable- members meant . again to go out of the House when a vote t was taken.—(A: Mkmdkr: They showed 1 good taste.) Mr TURNBOLL. agreed-tritli hia colleague (Mr-Reynolds)... r The . PROVINCIAL. SECRETARY presumed that the vote just taken had to 3 somo extent nettled tho question. He 2 felt more at liberty, to spoak now, than lie B did before ;.and ho wished to say that, • whenever he was out of oflice, ho should • support tho • larger saint; of LBOO. Ho " should do so, tecatiso ho thought there • should be a sensible diflorence between " the aalariea of official members of the 5 Government.and those of heads of departa mentii : becanso- he thought the salary s should be giveni to the office, and 3 not to tho individual; and because f he thought that oflico should bo > open to members,, whether resident in s in the country or Duncdin. Ho had 6 heard a great dtai about tho greatness and '" the yorgeousnesa. of tho salary ; but ho thought that some members would not -. find it to bo so, and: that it would be found that fixing the s&liiry at I*ooo would be . the means of precluding members from. 3 taking oOico, ualcaa they resided in Dun? I edin. f Upon a, division, there was again a tio > —12 for and 12: against tho amendment^ t . The CHALRMA-N : 1 give my voice wsth tho Ayes. I wish, to explain that,, t in these capß, I thifJc it my duty to »iyo 3 my vottj wiiTa the lower sum proposed in r Committee.—(Hear, hear.) t Provincial Solicitor, LOOO ; was agreed c to. Three Non-Ofiicifd Members, LGOO. > Mr liJ/IID moved that the item stand— t . Two -OflicLillMembcra, T//JO. :., Tho 'PROVINCIAL SECRijTARY said o that tho que/ition of having a. third. [- non-official niumbcr, had aot even been. c mooted in thfc Government.; but he would raiae the fji'.«»tion whether tho amende ,j ment could'ba accepted, r/ter a vote come . c to earlier in tho session, [on the Exqcnn tive Conncil Ordinruico Amendment Ordinance]. He did; not in any way pledge himsoH that tUc G«vcmmant would m not, during tho i-eaesa, appoint a third non-offioiai. lnomb^r, if the item, as it y stood wa!» voted, and' if tho Govcramoiit ' ssiw that h third member could bo woll , eniploy<vL .' After disciujsion, the amendment was put, and was, negatived, there votinx-^- - Aybs, 9 : Messrs Bair, Brown, Clark, Greon, Mjyr, Mitir, J^id, Shepherd, a- 'fjjjDdjjon^ °» Nubs, 10: Messrs Bnrna, Duncan, Fr--«s!\ Main, M'lndoe, llcynolds, !t» Soatoß, Shand, Taylor, Voi'olPvuns : For, Mc»9r» Hutchcson, ho S Murray, M«u*t; Against, Mtasrs Franca, n- Driver. *>9 Mr SHKPHERO proposed, as an >«* amendnieni, that flui amount stand a.% L 403, Bo tnc*sit V»y the amendment tq a 4 ?/JJ«ft tj>af. Jfto GfOTCrnment soould

/ BWt of not moro than five members, two of them being non-oflicial.

The- PROVINCIAL SECRETARY" ' subimftbd that it had been decided that Threo non-oflicial members" should stand. If tho nmn now proposed was adoptcd,andthcrewerconlytwotion.(iflki:il members, they would not take the whola amount voted. It would bo rational, if the honorable member would pror-osu to increase the ualurica; for tho honorary members did much, and most valuable work. Air REYNOLDS agreed with the Provincial Secretary as to ''Threo NonOliicinl Member.}" having been affirmed. The CHAIRMAN held to the contrary What had been done Bad been to negatiso,. " Two non-official members, LloO.'* Monitors could goon moving amendments in the amount: the question was one of salary, not of number of non-oflicial members. A division took pl:ico.. and tho amendment, was nflirmed, there voting— Ayes, 10 : Messrs Uarr, Brown, Clark, Green, Hay, Mitchell, Muir, Reid, Shepherd, Thomson. I Xous, 9 : Messrs Burns, Duncan, Maiw^M'lmW, Iloyuolds, Seaton,Shaud, Tayteit? Vogol. Pacts .' For, Messrs Ilntcheaon, Murray, 'Mouat; against, Messrs France, Mollison, Driver. Secretary, LSOO ; Chief Clerk, L2BO ; Cler I*,1*, L 2-10 ; Contingencies, L 125. Phovin<;iai. CofNcjiL : Salaries, L 1023 ; Contingencies, L 2075. The following: wero agreed to:— Speaker, L2OO • Chairman of Committees, LIOO ; Clerk and Librarian, L 35 0; AusistantClerk, L 175. Sergeant at Arms, LIOO. Mr MUIR moved that the item stand, LSO. Tho amendment was negatived, ly 10 votes to 4 ; and tho item as printed was agreed to. Messenger, LtOO, was agreed to. Expenses of Country Members, LllOCh • The PROVINCIAL SECRETARY explained that it. would ho necessnry to put a considerable addition upon tho Supplementary Estimates, in consequence of tlio length of tho HCKsi'in. Probably, tho amount would havo to Imj increased to L2OOO or L 2200 in all. Tho item was agreed to as printed ; as •were also—Council accommodation, and expenses of Select Committees, I«!0t) ; Printing and Stationery, Lt>o(> ; incidental expenses, L2fi. Provincial Solicitor—Clerk, L2BO ; incidental, &c, L2OO. Pouch : Salaries, LM,U3 17» 0d ; contingencies, L2(ili>. Tho PROVINCIAL SECRETARY urged that tho itonis fslmuld bo passed without discussion. Tho force was not only a credit to the Provinco, but was th» envy of all the other Provinces. Them was no other head of a department who did bo much work as tho Commissioner of Police. He had no regular hours, and ho had recently undertaken tho duties of Inspector in Duncdin—a Raving: being thus effected. Tho expenditure had been year by year reduced - the cmountH being (in, round numbers) — 180IM, L 18,000 ; 1804-5, L3!>,000 • 1805-G, L 20.000 ; 1800-7, LIB,OOO ; 1.807-8, LI 7,000; JB6B-0, Llo,ooo~the reduction being nearly LI 200, an compared with last year. Ho hoped thera would bo nothing liko- a repetition oE language, which had had' boon used earlier in tho session, and which had, most naturally, caused annoyance to the Commissioner—an officer whom it would bo a. great loss to the Provinso to lose. Ho (tho . Secretary) would; move—Salaries, L 14.413 17s M. Mr MUIR- moved an amendment on. tho first item: that-LfiOO, after " Commissioner," stand at L'soo. Affcr discusflion, tho amendment waa negatived without a.diviaion. Tho other itoma. wero agreed to as printed. Ehcoht : Salaries,. 1*1385 10s; contingencies, Lif»so. H AHHoit Pri'AJitmbwt-.- Salaries, L4OOG; contingencies, lAi'dl' 1 Is. Oaot,.— Salaries, L 4121 10s; rations and contingencje.'), L'l7'.)o. I'KOYINIJiAjr. TIIEAKtntKR'H Dkl'AKTmext : Salaries, LllfiO; contingencies*, L 250. CoauKtrno's ov-Jhttst T)ukh : Salaries, L7oo>; contingcncicß, L 170... At iivo miaatea lwfore one o'clock, progress was reported, and leave obtained ta sifc ngain.' niSOLAIMED LAND. Tho SEORKTARY for LAND anil WORKS laid on the ta'ile tho Harbor Reclamation .Land Leasing and Sales Bill, 1808. ' The Bill was read a first time and ordered t0..b0 printed; and tho second reading'was.inado an Order of the Day for Friday. . "Tho-" Houbo was, shortly after one o'clock, adjourned until two o'clock, p.m.