PROVINCIAL COUNCIL

Otago Daily Times, Issue 1690, 31 May 1867, Page 5

PROVINCIAL COUNCIL

THUBSDAY, May 30th. Tljo Spoakur (Mr W. H. Reynolds) took his* &Qui at two o'clock. ms-:s.-uo; ciiA.LMi:im imovHsn-?. MrMrniiiskcd tho IVovindal TivaBtwsr, *' if Uw fino of LSOD ia«|x>j»c<l *nt Mnsurs C'Jtalmvrs JJnithtre, in tho KcsiI dent MK^atmtc's Curt. Lawrcsnco, hus jwwi puul ] and if »,rt. wlt: t t actioa do tha fJovcrumt-nt intend' to taku in tho matter •" Mfl^UilNS (in ih<: abseiicL" d die Truasurw) .said that, sr. far !W | v . hu<KtaUM>d, tho nuaWr \v;w- onv w)ii»;h luul been ban'lk.;l uhont h\nn uw, ;;u]ioij<,»c to another., ami Jj.-ul not kkm Keidotl yet HAKiMIt OKI'AItT'.fHN'T. On the motion of Mr TII^MSONT, i}n } . House went into Ooinmiih'o- (r» con-iider fho resolutions of the Seluei Connuitko on thu Harbor Department. Mr TITOJVLS< »N, in moving the adoption of the resolutions, said, that when ha moved for tlie Couuuil&ee, und laid tin* report of that Coiumitk'tfon the iabli', he luul noithou-jht the i(u<>>tlion would hava attained to such lar:je c!hue?!?>ion.s aa it ha<t since a-tsumod. The n-soluticuiß which ha now proposed wore the n,'solutiuna formally adopted by the Coinmitiee, jutd us Chaiiitnui of tlr.it CommHteu it fell in him "to support them. The Committee eon-side-red that the Harbor Department would be much more «(h"eiently mamvedt under a Board. That hud bcett the conclusion of a Committee which had Hat last session,- .-uul they h;ul precedents for its adoption ia the existence «>f lioiwl Uoard-s, Educatioa Boards, and othci-H. If rtot by a Board1, the Harbor would have U> bo managed by i tho Executive, and Executives were too | ephemeral and transient in their character- | to deal with harbor matters oiHciently. Capt. ThoniHoii recommended that tho whole of tho harbors of Otago should btt under one Board, but the Select Committee did not go that length, considering the management of the una harboc enough for a single Board. The first resolution implied that, by such means, the department might be made eHicienfe and self-supporting. Ho wihhed to say nothing regarding its ellieiency ; he did not «:iy that any one connected with tho department was inefficient ; but it vcjh found that, in thu department there was a> want of organisation, one witmv.<i having; said that lie did not know what rehitioit he b<Jiv either to the Harbor Master or to thu Pilot Hoard—-or, in oth«r wurds, tSmfc he did not know v.ho was his master. As to its being Helf-supporting, it would certainly by a vory good thing if it could bo managed, ;lh he believed it could. Th<> Chamber of Commeivo, whidi t:il«ed a grutit deal, and was full of .suggoiilions, suggested that the p<^j t should be free*. There wh.'i no doiilit (hat >>cop]e did nofc c;nt; about being taxed, and if we could, without money, do tho work of providing roads and bridge;*, buoys ;md beacons, itc, we should have a free harbor, ami no taxes of any account. But ):e thought that iho;-!e who used the harbor and tha facilities provided for navigation kliouM, iv ihe same way ;u> th«.-«e who u:-;od roads, pay for them. Oihorvvisc, fn»m what somvi; eouJd tln.'y dej'ive tlieir reWMiuo, f Tlie (yi(ininiiit:i) had. not gun<; speeiiically into detaihs, but they thought that Captain Thomson hud made out a very good eiise, and orse which was worthy o£ consideration. What ihe Committee proposed, therefore, a.s thy lirst resolution was, " That the Covcrmuyut l>ure<jue.sted to introduce a Bill this Session, in terms <f the Final Report of .Select Comuiitte<3 (>i Provincial Count-il, Session 22, with tic: view of promoting the efficiency of~ the Harltor Dt:jiartment; ;.' ■■"ii{ making tho de{.«:alu»ent sclf-s'.n>porting.?' Tise second. resolution \v;is, "That all correspondence* lietws.-ou tho Government a;;«:l ofiicvrH ul the Harbor Dupartim-nt should bu conducted through the Harbor Master and! Mavim; J'oard, when formed." He did not mean to refer to the matters alluded to here ; he wo:ild only Kay tSjat the Com-mu-ti-'C thought it very inconvenient that inferior ofiicurs should communicate witlu. the (Government, or the (Jovenunynt witli. it/S inferior oHieeivs. TJie third re^oluliou wa:i, "That all Reports laid on tho tabhj «h«;uld be sul mitted without mutilation." Tiio word " mutilated" was not his selection, but it was found thai an important clause had been struck out of theHarbor Master's report. He did nob. mean to say that the Government should print every report ;uj it was brought up, but, if there were anything objectionable in a report, the Government might refeie back a report to any of their oiiieera, and, it ho wen; pleased to adopt their suggestion;*, good and well. Tito effect otherwise might be, that tho Council would bis misled. He had been blamed for moving; iv the matter ; but, hud the report been. , printed in full, there was scarcely any [ lion, member who would not have movoit for in<juii*y into the department. Tho fourth resolution wan, "That tho (Jo- | vcrmnont should rccogniso the recom* , mendation of ihe Harbor Master in tins I appointment or dismissal of his subordi- \ nate officers." The Committee cousiderecE. that the Boanl should*have the power o£ saying to thy Harbor Master that he was* , to have, a cci"tain number of mo?i io do j his work, and that he ahould; |>y responsible ; that, in short, the Harbor Master r should have; the power of recommending; _ that certaith mpn should be appointed oe disfnissed,, tcitliout which power his ser~ [ vices might l>e disperaed with altogothcr. 5 Be moycTd the adoption of'tho resolutions as.awhoito. I Mr X&YIjFM said that,, in, tluj report i of the. Coramittee, from beginning to end, - there was.a «oriea"of errors and. aissrepre-' f sensations. He-liad al»o. to. coiitplaiii of , certain features of its proceedings. Firife 1 <£ .all, he coMMered tiie- Opnunitteo had - h&m r mjudicioaaly «ckcted, for there vtan n on it one ixmn who knew, nothing of th** c vorking o£ tho harbor j-'njwl, .-in thos 6 second placo, although he, had been contl nected vtiih the harbor f,or tin,© last ninei teea yeara, b«i evident was not' takea y until a letter had Wji »ont to th& y ChnUwan; ajni the 'evtiU#ice of Caph. il M tKinnon l unQthern\e]nWx"of tho Pilot Boai-d, and, represontativq of ihe pilots* [r liJulnofbo«ii'tjA«Miat*Ul lleferrbiij to thoTC}>cttin]p]i whicjj th^o resolutiona ie had beta* "basket, ho found it stated that y t the powars of tho Pilot Boawl had nota bean clearly d<tftn<scl. Bo considered that t» tliey were, and he Ime* tt»ai tjo onljr g* xamon that they were not «»{«»« that a3l the I^srers vestidia meOovwiWß

had not been delegated to the Superintendent, so tjiafc they emild be by him redelegaied to the Board, 'Another as»ertion was that one of tho position* iakcn by the Board wf»s that they hud %ha power to appoint or disraiss subordinate officers of the.* Pilot etj.fiC He -altogether denied that the* Board had ever on any occasion appointed or dismissed pi)ot« or boatmen. All they did was to recommend to the Government. On one occasion when they flic! m t they were asked to roeon«ider 'their recommendation ; they did so, and came to the same conclusion as at first ; and tho p»rti»*» — boatmen tat tho fiwuh, — were di&mi»K<;d. Another portion of the report—-Unit relating to the late \ retirement- of a pilot—\vm entire!) con- j trary to j:ie fact. Wi'.h other members of the- Bo;ir*J, he had preferred leaving it to. the .'Harbor Mniitor to suggest who should rolirc from tlm fwrvicv. Tho Harbor Mash:!* su ;,'#'!* ted (Japt. Seoonts. He (Mr T&yler) did not agree with that suggestion, because tlu'.i pilot was a senior pilot, whose efJkieney was unquestionable, and against whom no mistakes in the fulfilment of hb duties could be charged. Two other members of fho Board—Capt. M'Kinnon and (Japt, Robertson---joined with him in thinking tliat he wan not the mnn who should be selected, and it was deckled -by tho majority, that the junior j>ilot (Captain Bain) should retire. Captain Thomson, -with whom Mr Reynolds joined, was highly indignant, and hence the report. The pilot whom the Harbor Master sought to diseluu'ge was not only tho senior and had snet with no accident*, but the other pilot was the junior, and had met with accidents ; and tJio ]>rinciple upon which the : selection of the Board vrm founded, he contended, was thoroughly right. He would not have referred to the'matter, had there not been ko muchmade of tho clause in the Harbor Masters report, and had he not felt it -necessary'to. do so hi justification of his assertion that .tho Committee's report contained miarepresentation of fact. [The lion, member referred to gome correspondence, and at greater length to the proceedings of the Board, in support of luh statements.] As to other recommendations' of the Committee, ho would ask what could he the use of the Board if it were Jo be subject to the caprice or the whims of the Harbor Master? Properly, tho Harbor Master should be supervised by, and responsible to, the Board, who should he responsible to the Government or the public. Bo it was with the Education Board--it was not the Secretary, but fhu Board itself, who were directly refcponiiible to the public ; and so it should be with the Murbor JJoaid—the public would not look either to tho Harbor M.-istcr or any other o!)i •(,»•. The present Harbor Muster mi;>ht bo the best mnn who hud over lived, but a very deferent man ini^ht ho appointed tomorrow, uiid v;i'ji htr to have tho iudi.scrintinateajipointtnuiit or dismissal vi ofiicers, at the risk of injustice being done either to men whom he did not choose to appoint, or Ut wen who. at his pleasure alone, mi^ht bo dismissed ? lit? (Mr Taylor) would give this power—that any recommendation the 1 iarbor Master mijjht make would have givui, weight with tho Board; but beyond fhut he would not go. Ho was quite of opinion th;tt correspondence- on mrit-ters re-luting to tho department should p^s through the legitimate and recognised channel, but tlie rale was not without exceptions, and it was out of the question to say that the Superintendent \v;uj to buaitogether prevented from communicating with subordinate oflk-cra orany member of thu public service. He onsidered that, the Superintendent or the Executive should have full liberty to eonnnnnici'.'e with, any public aurvaut, in whatever capacity lie miyht be, if they thought proper to do so. Ah to the avowed object of tho resolutions, otherwise—jaaking tho Hnrbor Department self-supporting— he -did not doubt its feasibility ; but it win an obpet which might be gained at tho cost of one «oction of tlie community, and with the result of driving slapping away from the porfc. Mr M'INDOIS s,iid the Committee mi^ht have taken great pains in investigating tho matters connected with the Harbor; but. it was evident that, in the course of their irm-.-itigHtioiiK, tliey had entirely hub sightuf the subject in hand. If the resolutions proposed were adopted, tho C«»xincil would ho led into contusion from "vliicli it would take wise heads to remove them. By the ■ recommendations of the Committee of last session, it was proposed to vent in a Harbor Board, not only the powers vested in the Superintendent, hut all ■ the powers which, the Governor might grant. With such a Board erected—with all the powers which tlie Superintendent or the Council might now have transferred to a Board—what, in tho world, , had the Council to do v.ith passing resolutions that all correspondence from liavbor. officials should pans through • the Harbor Master and Marino Board ? Tlie Iklarine Board v/ould be an independent body, altogether irresponsible to the Superintendent or tho Council. That, aud nothing else, would bo tlie effect of such a Bill {is that which was proposed, and he anticipated that such was neither tho wish nor the intention of the Council. They were told tiiat, by some arrangement o£ the kind, the Harbor Department would bo made Holf-supporting. How would it be so ? By tho imposition of dues on shipping—dues which it ought to-bo a primary object with the Council to make as light as possible. There could bo notliing more suicidal than to'entertain such a proposition. If the Council were appointing a Pilot Board, to continue and assist the Harbor if as tor, as had been done, he could understand ifc. The H<uv>or Master might find himself in diiEcultics in which he might require advice, and he might be disposed to seek the assistance of the Pilot Board, but the idea of vesting in ■Marine., Board such powers that they should be beyond the control of the Government, was .-a conception the utility or propriety o£ which lie could not appreciate. Altogether, the resol Ations were a cpnfvisod lot. If the^rst were' passed, the second, third, and fourth, would be simply ridiculous. What purpose could tho third resolution sot.ye ? The Marino Board would ;not lay any report on the table of that House, So with the fourth resolution :;ifce Government would haveno ppwer to interfere with the ■ mentor "diamiasal ofoffieers. The sunple (effect of all would t<3 to' "htaid away the t power tho and the Council

now had to an irrespomrible body. A great cry bad been .made-about depriving the Superintendent of his pyw^m over the Golclfields, but by these resolutions the Council was asked to do a thing which was exactly analogous. Thn Council would, in effect, affirm tfent they were not fit to -take charge of this Departmeni He would most strongly oppose the resolutions.' Mr KErSTOLDS said the fimt stoto-.-ment of the report was that the Harbor could be made self-supporting, and he maintained that it could, with a reduction, j instead of an increase -of taxation ou slu'p- j ping. When the Pilot Board was established, pilotage was not compulsory, and an arrangement was made by which pilots were ninde euro of an income of L2Q per month, the receipts from pilotage falling short of that amount. Since then, pilotage was made compulsory ; and, as soon as compulsory pilotage came in force, the amount of income to each pilot, after deducting expenses, became LSO 3Oh in a month. His own opinion waa, that tho pilot staff could be reduced to three pilots and the apprentice pilots, re that a great saving might be effected. By that saving, they would be able to reduce the pilot dues, and harbor dues nikht be imposed. It was certainly not right that vessels should come here and take advantage of buoys and beacons without contributing to their cost and maintenance. Bo believed the Treasurer had some •idea of making the port a- free port, but, us long act they were to charge, let suiffeient be charged to cover expenses. Tfie Committee were not at all respomible for what Capfc. TJiomson made out in his report. All they said was' that the Harbor could- be ma<le self-supporting, and without raising the dues on shipping. One part of tho Committee's report was intende<l more particularly to show that the Harbor Master's report was not kid on the table as it had been given in j and he held that no language used could be too severe, if such a thing were to be continued. He did not blame the Government ; ho believed it was done without a I thought? but, in any other case, let the reports be laid upon tho tablo as a whole, or not at all. With regard to the complaints of Mr Tayler, the Committee was chosen by ballot,, and he (Mr Reynolds) had mentioned to him that his evidence would he required, but that, as ho was in tho House, ho could be procured at any time. It was not thought necessary to trouble Capt. M'Kinnon, because the evidence of three of the members of the Board, who were unanimous, had, already been taken, ** Mr THOMSON explained that previous to the receipt of the letter referred, to by Mr Taylor, he, as Chairman of the Committee, had sent a note to the hon. member requesting his attendance, Mr REYNOLDS [after referring to poi+ions of Mr Tayler's evidence] said ho couHidered that the report of the Comnrittue had been hilly borne out by facts, and among other evidence by that of the hon, member. Tlie member for Caversham was altogether wrong in. his conclusions about tho appointment or constitution ni tlie Harbor Board proposed in the report of the Committee of kj»t scsniou ; it was not intended that it should 'be anything else than responsible to the .Superintendent, and appointed or removed by him. Reviewing the resolutions briefly, he thought he had clearly shown that the Harbor might ho made self-supporting. As to the Hccond, lie thought no one could deny that it was desirable that all correspondence should bg conducted through the Harbor Master and the Marine Board, and that it was undesirable that tho Government should correspond with any subordinate officer in the Dopartnuint. If they referred to tho Gaol Report, they would find a very similar complaint; and if they referred to the : matter of the Chitha bridge, it would be ; seen that there h;wl been an interference ! which would, perhaps, cost the country JLIO,OOO or 112,000. And he believed that similar reporte might be made more or less in connection with all the departments. With regard to the fourth resolution, he considered tlie Harbor Master's recommendation should bo taken 'in every case, unless it was found that his recommendation was really unjust; if he were not lit to be trusted to that extent, he should at once be dismissed. The resolutions as a whole, he felt perfectly convinced, would be adopted by the Committee, notwithstanding all the strength and all the talent that were to be brought against them. The TREASURER did not think the hon, member had at all gone into the question. Ho had taken it for granted that he had succeeded in showing that the Hnrbor Department could be made selfsaporting..^ They were quite aware that by a tax in any department it might be made self-supporting, but the hon, member had most discreetly abstained from showing upon what basis it could-bo satisfactorily done, and had not, in any one point, condescended to details. On the contrary, he repudiated Capt. Thomson's proposition, and, without that witness, he did not know where was the evidence upon which the conclusions of tho Committee could be based. The fact.was that the appointment of this Committee and "these resolutions had arisen from nothing more nor less than this—the hon. member was a member of the Pilot Beard ; so long as he was in the majority everything was right, but the moment he was in. the minority, there was* no effort too great to upset the Board ;"and as the Government'could not'be got to support tho minority, this Committee had been obtained, and deceived into proposing these resolutions. Mr REYNOLDS denied that he was in a minority, or that there was any ground I fo: the Treasurer's statement .Th-j TREASURER said tho whole re-* | port of the Select Committee was really an attack, not so much upon the Government as upon the Chief Officer of the Province, and an indirect means of having a vote of censure passed upon-him ; and it was due to the reputation and honor of tlie House that all the facts should be placod before it. There were four points of complaiiit—that there had been direct communication with Captain John Robertson- and Captain Lowden, that the 'Harbor Master's recommendation with reference to Captain. Seweil had not been -.taken, this question■'v.of v mangling* reports, and the qtiestioriof not vetoing the' recommendation of the Pilot Board when Mr Reynolds and 9?!*^ Thomson yrfin in the minority. [The Treasurer. ex-

plained^ in detail, the circiunstances in each case.] In reference to the complaint of direct communication with Obtain Robertson, the whole aSairwas this-: The Council had, last session, passed a vote for an astronomical clock and time-ball at Port Chalmers; on the 17th December the Treasurer applied to Capt. Thomson to have effect given to it. j two-months afterwards, after communicating to Melbourne, Capt. Thomson advised t3iat the instruments should be obtained from England ; a deputation waited upon the Superintendent; and informed him that if Capfc. Robertson waa communicated with j he would obtain the apparatus at once ; \ the Superintendent sent a minute to the j effect that, unless Capt. Robertson were communicated with directly, there would be li fct le chance of any effect beinggiven to it ; he (the Treasurer) did what he thought was right, by communicating with Capt. Robertson ;■ the clock was obtained at very much less expense than Oapfc. Thomson said it-would cost j and the ball was erected. It might not be well, as a rule, to communicate directly with subordinate ofiicers; but a considerable amount of discretionary power had to be given to a Government; but, where a communication had been made to the Superintendent, ho thought the Government were perfectly justified in doing as they had done, and they had been justified by tho result. Tho whole affair was an exceedingly paltry one ; but it was really part of the grounds of what was simply and solely an attack upon the Chief Officer of the Province. It was the same with respect to the matter with Capt. Louden, He ifad waited upon the Superintendent; the Superintendent told him to write his complaint; bnt he neglected to say that he should send it through tno proper channel; proceedings followed in the Pilot Board; but the Superintendent took the whole blame upon his own shoulders. The whole affair was paltry in the extreme, and rather seemed to illustrate how bad such a Board as was proposed would work. [Tho Treasurer detailed also the circumstances connected with Capt, Sewell's resignation and re-appointment at Oamaru, and some steps taken in connection with the matter by Capt. Thomson.] Tho" muti- | lation'* of a report ho knew nothing of personally, but it was simply the exclusion from the report of a paragraph which was nothing more nor less than a piece of insubordination. The political heads of departments, according to his view, were responsible for the reports ; if that were not the view held, it would be better that the reporte should bo put in possession of the House directly through the Speaker. It was through such trivial matters as he , had described in connection with the pilot ; service, that this report and these resolutions had been brought about; and the whole inquiry showed that Capt. Thomson, although he might be a very excellent man, was a man of little judgment for the head of a department, and a man who was apparently actuated Iby strong personal feelings. As to i the general question involved in the | first ...resolution, he had no objections to a reduction of the pilot fees, provided such could be made in good faith, and without affecting the arrangement or the interests of tho pi hit staff; nor did ho wish otherwise than that every weight and consideration should he given to tho recommendations of the i Harbor Master ; but the appointment of a Board having the charge of tlie whole seabord of the Province was tantamount to reducing ifc, so far as the Government was concerned, to the condition of an inland Province ; and the appointment of a distinct board for Dunedin Harbor would only be a precedent for the inHti- | tution of similar Boards and separate ; staffs at every other port on the coast. ! -Mr JULIUS confirmed what had been said by the Treasurer, as to Capt. Sewell ; and he denied > that the Harbor Master, whoever lie might be, oitght to sit as a member of tho Pilot Board. Mr REYNOLDS gave long, detailed explanations, in reply to the Treasurer. ,He contended that, in regard to Pilot Louden, .tins Board had simply done its duty; and that all the Treasurer's references to Oamaru were cunning rather than applicable to the question, as all the recommendations of the Committee of last session had reference only to Dunedin. Tho CHAIRMAN, on a point of order, said that he believed tlie discussion for the last two hours to have nothing, or very little indeed, to do with the question before the Committee. Mr REYNOLDS again spoke, amidst cries of "Divide." ' The SOLICITOR assured the Committee that the discussion, which had lasted three hours, could be of no effect, for if tho resolutions were passed they would be without power. Under the Marine Act, the power relating-to every important point iuvolved in the resolutions, belonged to the Governor, or to his delegate, who, in this- case, was the Collector of Customs. '"The .proposed legislation by the Council must be entirely unavailing, ? Capt. MACKENZIE regretted that the Solicitor had not given his legal opinion earlier, and so prevented a great waste of time. To prevent a further waste, ho (Capt. '.'Mackenzie) would move that a division ho now taken. After a short discussion, as to what would be the effect of an honorable member speaking until half-past five, so that tho question could not be put before the Chairman left the chair, the question. '••That a division be now takes," was put, and was affirmed. Tlie first motion of the four was put, and there voted-— Ayes, 12: Messrs Barr, Clark, Green, ; M'Dermid, Mitchell, Muir, Murray, Reid, Reynoldsj Seaton, Sibbad, Thomi'son. ■-.-•■' ..-•■■• ■■'.■.-.-■ I Noes, 1&: Messrs Burns, Driver, ! Duncan^ France, Fraser, Haggitt, Hay, ! Hughes, Huteheson, Julius, | M'lndoe, Millar, Mollison, Robertson, Shand, Tavler, VogeL The motion was, therefore, negatived. The Chairman left the chair. The Speaker took the chair shortly after seven o'clock. The question having been raised as to the business to be proceeded with, Mr HAXJGHTON called attention to the fact that there> was not a quorum. There beirrg but eleven members present, the Speaker declared the House to stand adjourned until two o'clock to-day (Friday).;"'; ' ;-: ■-■': ::'-\'.- '■' '- y:K \ .:■";. j"Near the • end of yestenlay's report, an opinion of 5 Mr Speaker wa^ not correctly

stated. The Speaker held-that if the adjourntoent of "the House" (not of the debate) was carried as an amendmeat against the motion for the second reading of the Loan Bill, the Bill could not be proceeded with during the sti&sion. The report correctly stated that -Copt. Mackensae'a proi>osaf, which was before the Honse at the time, was that the House do adjourn,]