TAWA FLAT DEVIATION

New Zealand Times, Volume L, Issue 11659, 25 October 1923, Page 9

TAWA FLAT DEVIATION

I.P/8 WANT MONEY SPENT THIS YEAH “ NOT A BUNCH OF CARROTS ! ” SAYS MR WRIOHT BUT WHAT ROUTE WILL BE FOLLOWED? MINISTER’S NON-COMMITTAL REPLY A deputation of Wellington City members of Parliament, together with Mr W. H. Field, M.P., representing Otaki, waited upon the Minister for Public Works a*hd Railways (the Hon. J. G. Coates) yesterday morning to discuss the question of the proposed deviation of the Manawatu line via Tawa Flat.

The deputation was headed by the Mayor of Wellington (Mr R. A. Wright, M.P., Wellington Suburbs), the other city representatives present being Sir John Luke (Wellington North), Messrs P. Fraser (Wellington Central), A. L. Monte;th (Wellington East), R. McKeen (Wellington South), and the Hon. Dr Newman, M.L.C.

The position was fully discussed. Mr Wright made it clear that the deputation was out to spend the money —-to snend it as soon as possible—and that they did not accept the vote as a bunch of carrots to be dangled before the members and the public to keep them quiet.

Sir John Luke urged an early commencement with the work, and Hon. Dr Newman said “ditto” in fervent tone, and a good deal more, while Mr Field added his voice to the plaint.

The Minister, in his reply, said that Dr Newman had introduced quite a lot of controversial matter, to some of which Mr Coates referred at length. Regarding railway requirements, he said he was trying to get down to what were the most urgent works—those that would save most. They asked him to make a start—but how many undertakings had been started and then stopped? The Mungaroa-Cross Creek route (Mr Furkert’s) had been decided on, and it would, cost a million to get out to the other side ; and the question of finance and other details had to be arranged. He thought it would be better for him to have the whole position in regard to the most important and urgent railway works in front of him before coming to any final decision on the matter.

HELP OFFERED

TO SPEND THE MONEY “NOT A BUNCH OF CARROTS.” The Minister, said Mr Wright, had been good enough to place on the Estimates last session a vote for £IO,OOO for the work in question, and the members of Parliament present were simply anxious to help him to expend it as quickly: as he could.- It had happened in the past sometimes —he did not sav with this Government—that votes find Bimiply been like a bunch of carrots dangled before members and the public to keep them quiet, nothing being done, though the vote was kept on the Estimates year after year. The deputation desired to know whether the Minister could see his way to spend the £IO,OOO this financial year on the work in some way, either by way of a survey, iu order that the actual work might be started as soon as possible, or by making a commencement with the work itself. “A PAYING PROPOSITION.” Rooking at it as a business proposition, it seemed to him that it would pay the Railway Department, as a commercial transaction, to proceed with the work and complete it without delay. As far as he could work it out in his own way, it seemed to him that to enable all the heavy traffic, the goods trains and the expresses, to avoid the heavy haulage up the hills to Paekakariki would save the interest and sinking fund on the money invested; besides giving inuoh better access to the city. The land up to Tawa Flat, and perhaps ais far as Plimmerton, would in the near future be closely occupied by a suburban papulation. Already it was known that there were a thousand people in Wellington anxious to build, or already building, at Tawa Flat and in the near vicinity. So that the present line would be still further congested by simply suburban traffic; and in the future it must become simply a suburban line, which, if electrified, should pay very well indeed. The spending of the £IO,OOO, he urged, would find work for a number of people needing it. He was glad to say that there were not many unemployed about Wellington now; but still there were some, and people came here from ail parts, thinking that there was a better opportunity for getting work here. He thought, therefore, that it would be an excellent thing if the Minister could spend that £IO,OOO on that route in this financial year. Then, after it was spent, perhaps further steps would be taken to carry on the work. Wellington was growing very rapidly, and was destined to he a very big city. The city engineers believed that inside of twenty years it would have double itß present population ; and the city was now providing for that with a water supply scheme adequate for a population of a quarter of a million. A QUESTION OF GAUGE. Sir John Luke said that the Mayoi had covered the position very fully, and he endorsed ail he had said. He strongly urged the Minister to makiu an early start with the work. One could vision New Zealand with a considerable population—some said twenty millions, and he believed quite twenty millions—and our railway system in the future; in fact, in the near future, would become very much congested. Whether wo would adhere to the 3ft 6in railway gauge, he could not say. But, seeing that the tunnel which was to be constructed on this new route would be tbe commencement of the Main Trunk line that was to stand for all time, he was wondering whether the Government would adopt the Esiglish system, and go in for the 4}ft gauge. He asked the Minister to give an expression of opinion whether that would ever obtain in New Zealand; borause, so. provision .should be made for it sv making tbe tunnel wide enough, flic grade would be about 1 in 30, and

;b ' tunnel was tbe most important I consideration. He fully believed that I illlower cost, of haulage alone would j pav inn interest and sinking fund iden-'es on the emt ns the undertaking In view of ill" i avid increase in the ~ 'e.,lation of the >ilv tbai was looked ’or !'"• t: ri-o-uioent should not hold l")"k ibis c. or!:

"COMPARISONS ARE ODIOUS.” The Hon. Dr. Newman «,aid that we had considerable experience in Wellington of votes being on the Estimates and nothing being done. He had tried hard to get a jpost office at Hataitai; and for years there wan £SOO on the Estimates for it, but nothing was done. The .Minister had put £BOO on the Estimates for it for 'him, but still nothing waa done; and he supposed Mr Monteith would get £IOOO on the Estimates before long, (Laughter.) He did not think they were at all unreasonable in asking the Minister to epend the £2.0,000 mis financial ' year, in view of the great amount of "; work that was being done in the 4north. The Government had 1526 men building railways in the Auckland province, and not one in the Wellington province. Some £787,000 had been voted for railways in the Auckland province, and the work was being very actively carried on ; and only £20,000 had been voted for railways in the. Wellington province. “AUCKLAND 40 TO WELLINGTON’S ONE.*' So that Auckland got nearly forty to Wellington’s one. Work was going on on eleven railways in the Auckland province at the present time; and the Government, in addition, was calling for tenders for the contract for a twelfth railway. He asked, therefore, that this one little ewe lamb of Wellington’s should have money spent on it. The Minister: You have two little ewe lambs—Rimutaka, as well as Tawa Flat. Dr. Newman: We are talking about one. We were tired, he said, of going through some thirteen tunnels and being hauled over 1100 feet in the air between here and Pae'kakariki. The position was much the same in regard to roads, he added. There wefe thirty-five pages in the Public Work* Estimates for roads in the Auckland province, and only five for roads in the Wellington province. The votes for expenditure on roads were £BII,OOO for the Auckland province, and £109,000 for Wellington. In the Auckland provincial district there were_ 490 men at work on the roads, as against 22 only in the Wellington provincial district. The Minister: You have got more men working on the roads in Wellington than in Auckland. "GOVERNMENT’S OWN FIGURES.” Dr. Newman: I am taking the Government’s own figures. The Minister: What about the Paekakariki, Horokiwi. and Rimutaka roads, and so on. There are more than 22 men there. You mean 122. Dr. Newman: No; twenty-two. There had been, he maintained, not a penny spent on railway construction in W oiiington province .for ten or twelve years past ; and, in view of the figures he had quoted, he thought that they could very fairly ask that the £IO,OOO should be spent tifis financial year. The Minister said that the department’s returns showed that there were 275 men on roads, in Wellington, as against 208 in Auckland; while on buildings there were 105 men employed in Wellington, and only 82 in Auckland. That was an injustice to Auckland ; but he did not think they could take such considerations a a much reason for spending money in any particular direction. Dr. Newman: AM I can say is that I got these figures from the Government’s journals last night, and worked them all out. I won’t keop yon any longer, but it is a matter of great importance that something should bo done. I was the moans of getting a survey of this line ten or twelve years ago, but nothing has been done yet. OTHER SPEECHES. Mr Fraser endorsed what the previous speakers had said, and contended that a case had been made out for putting the work in hand, and taking the preliminary steps towards it this year. 'Hie Public Works Department, the Railway IX’parimont, and nil the crtisidns of Wolli'tigton were agreed that this work should go on; and it ought to go on. While unemployment had been reduced from wluit it was in the winter, still they know that, there would be a recurrence vf it next winter; and, if the survey was put. in operation as soon as possible, probably next winter they would he able tu' go on with the actual work and absorb all the unemployed, if not on ilii-. one job/ then on tin. Rimutaka deviation too.

Mr Field said that he had veiy little to-add. but ho wai* very deeply interested in the matter as representing Uw* ?. I a.:*;) ,\ii Lu district, t/enorullv. A

deputation waited upon the Minister stme time ago in regard to the extension of workers’ tickets to PliiiMUCtton and Paekakariki, and the Minister now had that under consideration. iie hoped that the Minister would be able to tel! him that this tunnel and Iho work generally would ho proceeded with at an early date. Some of then, wore getting pretty old, the question had been under discussion n gieat many years, and they would like to see the work completed in their lifetime. (Laughter). He asked the. Minister for a definite statement as to wherethe deviation was to be and when it was to be proceeded with. He was also greatly interested in the Riniutaka deviation; and, though that was not so important from a national point of view, it would enormously reuuce the working expenses on the Wairarapa line, the use of the Fell engines, and so on. Given a fair service from Wellington to Paekakariki, they would have the place smothered with happy homes right along the line from JoxinEcnvill© to Pukeroa. Mr Monteith also strongly support ed the prayer of the deputation. He had been very much struck, attending a place of amusement the other day, when a humourist—a man from outside, who evidently realised the position—said that Wellington had the best railway station in the world. (Laughter). MINISTER IN REPLY SUBURBAN TRAFFIC DIFFICULTIES. “RAILWAYS ASKED TO DO THE IMPOSSIBLE.” In reply, the Hon. J. G. Coates, eaid that Dr. Newman had. raised a whole lot of controversial matter as to the amount of railway and roadwork being done in the Auckland and the Wellington districts; and as to the number of men employed on publio works in each province. But he thought he had overlooked the fact that over 500 men were employed on the Maugahao scheme alone, and that over 200 men were employed on the roads in Wellington alone. But the Stratford engineering district and the Hawke’s Bay engineering district both overlapped into "Wellington province; so that if they reckoned in the number of men employed there also, it would bring up the Wellington figures very considerably. -So far as railways were concerned, wo had got two railways running out of Wellington already; and, owing to the development going ou and the great increase of population up north, he contended that the railway work there was justified. Between three and four hundred miles of railway would he thrown on to the railway system; and, though most of this waj in the Auckland Province, it affected Wellington as well. The bringing in of all the country' between Ohura and the Main Trunk line was hound to benefit Wellington: and the same applied to the East Coast and tKe Napier lines. They would all tend to bring more traffic this way. In regard to the three largest cities in the Dominion, the railways to-day were being asked to do the impossible. At certain, hours on the Wellington suburban lines it would be impossible to put on another train. Dr. Newman: On both lines?

The Minister: Yes: but more especially on the line out to the Manawatu. Wo could not fit in another train st the rush hours. .Mr Monteith: That is because of the single line. NEED FOR CONCENTRATION.

The Minister: Not altogether; but on account of the nature of the country—the time that it takes to go up and down. The Government, added the Minister.. was with the need for concentrating on the works that were most necessary, instead of frittering away money and effort here, thero, and everywhere. What he was trying to do was to get down on the book of an envelope —if ho might put it that way—what were the most important and urgent works in New Zealand from a strictly railway point of view; and the developmental side of the question had to be considered also. They had Mr Hiley'a scheme, and various other schemes; and they had been progressing. He would not say at what pace they might have been progressing; he did not know. Rut the department was doing the best it could with the finances at its disposal. The time might nome when they might have to stop the lot, and that would, not be satisfactory. He -was trying to get down what were the most urgent works those that would save most. Obviously, if they could save 20 per cent, by carrying out one work, and only 10 i>er cent, by carrying out another, they would take the 20 per cent, one from the railway point of view. But the developmental aspect had to he taken into account as well—the movement of population, and the need for providing op portunity for people to get homes out in the country and still work in tbe cities. After all those necessary particulars had been collected, he proposed to state his opinion—it might he wrong, of counsie—where they would, start; placing the different works, 1,2, 3,4, 5,6, in order of importance and urgency. Then he would have to arrange the finance and do the work. Ho was trying not to undertake too muwi at once ;and he believed that if a good, businesslike proposal was put up to Parliament —lie had to work with the members in these matters—Parliament would adopt it, sinking proposals about little railway stations in particular districts, and no on. Mr Monteith: We haven’t got on*. SETTING SURVEY PARTIES TO WORK. The Minister remarked that until the Thorndon reclamation work was completed the central station project could not bo dealt with. They were asking him to spend tho £IO,OOO. But, what for, and how far would it go? I)r. Newman; We want you to make a start. ’The Minister: But, how many undertakings have been started and then •stopped? It was better, he urged, not to atari until they were prepared to go right through with the work. As a matter of fact, however, instead of going to tho races, on Monday, thy head of the department had spent hie time walking out over the hills to en deavoTif to net hi» survey parties to work. The department had not lost sight either of the Rimutaka deviation. Further consideration had suggested Lho possibility of improvement even on the Mungaroa-Cross Crook route, which Mr Furkert had suggested—a route with a more level grade. Mr Field: That is the route decided upon 5 The Minister: Yes; .Mr Furkert\s route

Sir John Luke: Not tho Wnimn-o mala route?

WOULD COST £900,000 ODD

Tho Minister: No; the figures given by Mr Furkert had shown that the other was much tho hotter route. The £IO,OOO vote, he added, would nm, go very lur so far as the Tawa Flat, deviation vac concerned. R was going t<. cost £900,000 to a million tv* get light out to the other side; and he hud got to make provision for finance lor all necessary works, and sny what worko diould he undertaken, and in what order. He thought, therefore, that it was better to have the whole position in regard to the* most. important and umem, railway works in 'front- of him

before coming to any decision in the matter.

In Auckland, he observed, the potsition in regard to suburban traffic was very much worse than here, diving to the very much heavier train-borne population ; and they could not- push .another train in. The position in Wellington and Christchurch was also bad enough. The lines were inadquato to meet present-day demands—let alone the demands of tho future—and it was all a question of liow far they should go to meet future requirements. Air Fraser remarked that in hie Statement the Minister had already classified the Tawa Flat deviation as one of the three most important improvements in the whole Dominion. OTHER ASPECTS. The Minister: Yes, but there are other aspects of the matter which have to be decided by Parliament. There was, for example, the Rimutaka deviation. The present system of going over the top of the hill could never be satisfactory to the people of the Wairarapa district; but, on the other hand, the plant there was equal to handling double the existing traffic. Some works, by the expenditure of a million would show a saving of 10 per cent, only, while others would show a saving of 20, or even 25 per cent-., on haulage alone. The department had gone into every aspect of the question in regard ‘to the Tawa Flat deviation; and, of course, it was a very important hne. But he thought it was best to arrange their plans well ahead, and not to start till they were ready.

Mr Monteitih : Then, what is the reason for the £IO,OOO on the Estimates?

The Minister: To provide for preliminary surveys, and so on. Without a vote we could not provide for them. NOT TO APPEASE MULTITUDE. Mr Wright: It is not just to appease the multitude? (Laughter.) The Minister: No; the multitude did not -ask for the vote. It was the Minister for Public Works who put it there.

Mr Wright: You could not say whether the work is on the favoured list of six ?

The Minister: There may be more than six. We want to leave the railway track and walk for miles to get down to tin-tacks as to what the work will cost. It may be necessary to ease off development works in the backblocks and clean up some of the very urgent work necessary to give better access to the cities. We might knock off one job, say, and save £250,000 on development work and clean up tbo congestion in one particular area, transferring the money from development account to railway improvement account. That was what might have to be done, if the Government got stuck for finance m regard to railway improvement. ■Sir John Luke asked whether the 4ft 6in gauge was contemplated.

The Minister: That is a railway matter. The Public Works Department proposes to put in a double tunnel, in case of duplication being necessary. So that would allow room.

Sir John: This tunnel, when built, will stand for all time, won’t it? The Minister: We hope so. I hope that no earthquake will shift it. (Laughter.) We have already done a trial survey, and are now going to work out an engineering survey. It was not a question of the number of men employed or unemployed in one town or another, he added, but a question of the development of the whole country—a much bigger question. Tho alternative of the policy of concentration he had outlined was the spending of small sums here, there, and everywhere.

Mr Wright: Patchwork! Mr Fraser: Taking fifty years to complete works! Sir John Luke remarked that twenty yearn had already been spent on the Stratford route. They were of opinion that he ought to complete the works as lie went along.

The Minister said that that was his aim and object. His endeavour wa%* to arrange works as far as nossible, so that all the heavy expenditure came in tho last year. That was the most economical way.

.Sir John Luke: What we want to know is the exact deviation for Tawa Flat. The people of Wellington will be very grateful if you will let them know that. NO BATTLE OF ROUTES.

Mr Wright: Is there any danger of a battle ot the routes for Tawa Flat? The Minister: No; I think that battles of routes are gradually dying out all over the country. The people think that they should trust to the engineers. They know best. Mr Wright thanked the Minister for his courteous reception of the deputation.