BUDGET DEBATE

New Zealand Times, Volume XLIX, Issue 11303, 31 August 1922, Page 3

BUDGET DEBATE

CONTINUED IN HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES “ GLASS CLEAVAGE AND PARTY SPIRIT ” LABOUR PARTY’S LOYALTY QUESTIONED

In ths House of Representatives, which' met ai 2.30 p.m. yesterday, the preliminary business was completed shortly after fi.so p.m., and the debate on the Financial Statement was then resumed by Mr T. D. Burnett (Temuka). It was, stated the lion, member, a great feat to raise twenty-eight millions in that Budget, especially in view of the nost-war psychology of the people of New Zealand. Few ppople realised how great was the task of raising so large a sum from little more than a million and a quarter 01 people, particularly in a time of severe financial stress, and balancing the accounts of t'he Dominion within some .£300,000. He feared that the conditions of an advanced democracy might sap the fibre and the vigour of the people, and that they might be tempted to look rather to political than to individual effort to solve the difficulties that confronted them. There- was a need for a higher standard of work and efficiency; a need for each individual to work as if the welfare and prosperity of the Dominion depended upon him alone There was also a need for greater efficiency and higher ideals of service on th© part of the civil servants. INDUSTRIAL INDEPENDENCE. .So far, he 'held, ive had only catered for enabling the country people to become independent workers on the land; but he hoped that, with the 'hydro-elec-tric development of the Dominion, encouragement would be igiven. to townworkers to co-operate in the establishment of independent industrial concernIf this could be done, it would iucreasa the number of those who stood for stable Government, and would net as a bulwark against impracticable socialism. This Encouragement of our secondary industries should go 'hand in hand with closer landsettlement. He confidently looked to the Heat Control Board, to stabilise to a large extent the conditions of our promary industries. He understood that the board would shortly be making arrange ments with associations of consumers, so that they might he supplied directly, and thus benefit by the activities of the board. He hoped to see similar control established in regard to other primary products, such as wheat and dairy produce—a board to say how great an area should he sown in wheat, and to control the marketing of wheat, and a pool in connection with dairy produce. He predicted that, if foresight, was not exorcised and the necessary steps taken, within two years from now there would, not be enough beef produced in New Zealand to meet the needs of the Dominion. He depilated the tendency to a cleavage ot classes and to too erreat a development of party spirit. He came from the backblocks, where they might not have the .polish of the town-dwellers, but they knew a man when they saw one. 1 knew ability when they saw it, and they were convinced that there was only one man capable of steering the . country safely through the difficulties -.and the dangers of the post-war period; and that was the Prime Minister. (Hear, hear.; NO POLICY BUT VAGUE HINTS. Mr F. N. Bartram (Grey Lynn) congratulated the previous speaker on 'his excellent speech. Mr Burnett had said that he came from the backblocks; he (Mr Bartram) was certain that he had only to spend a few months in. the towns fco become a full-blown Socialist. (Hear, hear, and laughter.) A Reform member: You don t know the man. (Laughter.) Mr Bartram contended that the Financial debate showed how out-of-date the standing orders of the House were. It was, for example, a. sheer waste of time and of physical energy for the Prime Minister to have to spend 2J hours in reading the Financial Statement, which was a printed document, and all hon. members were dupable of reading and studying it for themselves. The Budget speech, ho considered, should be explanatory in character. It should set forth clearly and plainly the policy of the Government, and be something more than a recital of alleged economies interspersed with vague and mysterious hint 9. (Hear, hear, and laughter.) The immigration policy of the Government and its retrenchment policy had been aimed at reducing the wages and the standard of living of the workers; hut the Government had shown, on the other hand, an unwarrantable tenderness to the big landlords and the big capitalists, reducing their taxation by some JJ47i>,ooo through the 10 per cent, rebate on the land tax and the 5 per cent, rebate on tho income tax. "A COMMON FOB.” In Auckland he had come across .out of-work returned soldiers in Auckland competing for jobs with the British exservice men that the Government had brought out to this country. These men had been comrades in France fighting against, a common -foe. Now, however, they were ''fighting like hell” against one another in New Zealand for a job. But, make no mistake about it, they would be comrades again, fighting against a common foe, the Government on the Treasury Benches. He charged that the Government knew that a period of unemployment was coming, that it engineered it, and that it failed to make adequfaiij© provision, against it, though the Government was well able to do so. In a recent speech the Mayor of Wellington (Mr R. A. Wright, M.P.) had said that never before, though a native of the soil, had he known so largo a num ber of men willing and able to work yet unable to find work to do. That was not the statement of a complacent M.P. defending his Government, but a plain statement of fact; and it did not go to support the assertion of the 'hon. member for Waitemata (M r A. Harris) and tbo Minister for Education (the Hon. C. J. Parr) that tho talk about the unemployment problem was "reatly exaggerated. That problem would never be solved so long as gambling jn land was allowed to continue; and tho policy of the Labour Party would put an end to land speculation and lift the burden of mortgage from the shoulders of the workin" tarrners. He denounced tho inactivity of the Government in face of the housing problem, and the nuito nnnecessnriiv high oriecs of timber, cement, and other building materials. At such a time n* this, it was not the duty of tho Government to threw men \ out of work, cut down wages, and eronk pessimism. It ought to provide more employment, nnc! keen the home fires burning. (Hoar, hear.) SHORTER SPEECHES URGED AN OPINION FROM WALLA ( 'LL Air A. Hamilton (Wallace') s;r<] that in his opinion the cuHing down expenses should begin ot homo, in the House itself. Their debate* cost tho country a pound a minute; and lie thought they might well cut down the time limit of their speeches. Ho maintained that no Government had ever dono more- for the unemployed than the present Government, and that men had quite as good a chance in. taking up land io-day as they had forty years As

for gambling in land, it brought about its own cure. The present state of affairs had put an end to land speculation; and it was an economic Jaw that boom times would be righted by what followed them. Mr W. E. Perry (Auckland Central): Who said that? Mr Hamilton: I say it. He held that it was a time for moderation today—a time for opposing all extremes, whether it were Conservative, extreme Radicalism, < r extreme Labour. .Ho maintained that the Government was steering a good middle course; and that the people would recognise that at the forthcoming election as they had at the last election. The position of the country, he was convinced, was a sound one; but it was necessary to keep it sound. The Government might win popularity for itself by borrowing largely to ease the present position. But the Govern rnent knew that that would not be a wise policy, that it would not he in. the long run in the best interests of the people. The Government knew that it was -wiser, as it were, to keep ourselves poor, and adjust after-war conditions by strict economy and by increased production. Referring to the Government's immigration policy, he reminded the Labour Party that we had lost 17,000 of out best men during the war, that some 17,000 more were incapacitated, and that immigration up to the present had fallen far short of making up the deficiency. THEi REBATE POLICY. He defended the land tax and income tax rebates; but held that they should not have been called rebates, but reductions in war taxation. That relief, he maintained, was fully due; and further reductions in taxation must be made. In 1914 the income tax realised J8554.0CK) only, but last year it yielded <£5,444,000, an increase of 982 per cent. In the previous year tho income tax yielded over eight millions, an increase of- 1400 per cent. The land tax, again, realised £767,000 in 1914. while in 1921-2 it realised <£1,635,000; or an increase of 113 per cent. During the last ten years the Government had collected «£63,000,000 additional in taxation and had raised eomo ninety millions in loans; and that, ho claimed, had not only been a great financial feat, but had tended to Keep down speculation. The Labour Party held that Socialism was the solution of all our difficulties, but he held that it was far better to retain the system under which the individual had the hope of gain by reason of any extra effort. Mr H. E. Holland (Bullerl: The individual carries a mortgage to-day. Mr Hamilton : He is quite happy with his mortgage. Ho would rather have it than Socialism. (Hear, hear, and laughter.) He urged the need for an increased output of our primary products; and, to that end, tho need for putting our agricultural and pastoral industries on a thoroughly sound basis and improving the marketing conditions for our produce. Combined selling was necessary to combat effectively the combined buyers in tho Old Country. At the samo time they must .reduce their working costs —not so much by reducing wage£, as so many advocated, but by increasing the efficiency of labour, by reducing the taxation which was eo great an item in working costs to-day, and by the profit-makers taking less. The capitalists, as well as the workers, must play; the game. In fact only oy every ■section of the community playing the game, could we hone to pull through safely. Be urged tne Finance Minister to reduce the taxation on mortgages on country land to the same as the income tax on city debentures. The high taxation on incomes from interest on, mortgages was driving capital into the towns to-day, with the result that the farming community übs starving for want of mortgage money. a labour view. Mr W. Parry (Auckland Central) said that the Government used the surplus at tho last election for party purposes, and tho only reason he could give for their holding on to the surplus now was to use it at the next election. The Budget revealed that the conditions of the country were deplorable. When the Government found itself face to face with, a slump they should have kept their own people in their own country in employment. When a Government had millions of money in its treasury It was a strange thing to have hundreds of people out of work. ; HON. W. DOWNIE STEWART r, VERY UNFAIR," The Hon. W. Downie Stewart said the Ministry had been accused by tbo Liberals of being extravagant and of having effected no Teal economy, and accused by I/abour of parsimony, callous treatment of the unemployed and hardhearted treatment of civil servants. These were quite mistaken views. The Leader of the Opposition, stated Mr Stewart, 'had spent most of his lime ditring his speech on the report of the Auditor-General on stores control. But he liad quoted the statements in the report as to the deficiencies in tho stores control system, but had left out the qualifying remarks, which was very unfair. Mr R. Masters (Stratford): Read the whole of the last paragraph. Mr Stewart: You read that; ana you read a number of other paragraphs without the qualifying sfentjbnoee. I was surprised to see you following your leader in that. Mr Masters: Read last year's report. Another Liberal’ member: Or *ny year's! Mr Stewart remarked that the Reform Government had taken the matter in hand; but its predecessor had done noMr Masters: How long have you been there ? Ten years. Mr Massey: There were six years of war. Mr W. A. Veitcli (Wanganui): You do not debit yourself with stores at tho beaming of the year; but you credit yourself with them at the end of the year. AGAINST STATE BANK. The Minister denied that the Government ridiculed the idea of a Slate bank. He. at least, had never "done so. All he had done was to argue that New Zealand would benefit by nationalising the Bank of New Zealand. The Government was in an exceptionally good position in. regard to the Bank ofTNew Zealand, he contendod. It had four out of the six directors on the hoard, and derived ,; rom the bank half a million or more of taxrevenue besides the Government's share of the dividends. As for the agricultural hanks, the intention was to establish them on the guarantee system. Mr M. J. Savage (Auckland West): And if the bottom falls out of the agricultural hank, tho Government will Lke it up. (Laughter.) Mr Stewart: Not this Government. Mr Savage: It won't he there. (Laughtor.) Tho Minister added that it would cost the Government millions to nationalise the Bonk of Nrw Zealand. Air Parry : It didn't cost Australia millions to set up the Commonwealth Bank. No. replied the Minister, but the Gov, eminent 'had an interest to tho extent of H millions in an existing institution, and could not afford to lose that. Labour members objected that, the people had helped the bunk, but the bank dul not help the. people. Tlio Minister stated that during the

financial stringency the deposits in the banks in New Zealand fell by thirteen millions; but, in spite of that, the banks to help their cusec.raers, increased their advances by 5$ millions. New Zealand and South Australia were the only two countries in Australasia which showed an excess of advances over deposits; end the difference between the two was much bigger in New Zealand than in South Australia. Dealing generally with the he said that he did not know of another Treasurer in the world, who, like Mr Massey, had not a. fall in revenue of six millions and had yet balanced the nation’s accounts, and had made provision to meet a further fall of two millions in revenue in the current year. He must say that the Liberal press in New Zealand had been much more just and generous to the Budget than the Liberal and Labour members of the House or even the Reform press. m E. J. HOWARD "THE CUPBOARD WAS BARE.” Mr E. J. Howard (Christchurch Souths said that the previous speaker had followed on the same lines as Sir Francis Bell when he was Acting-Finance Minister. He had told the House that the Treasury was empty. When he'got there the cupboard was bare, And so the poor unemployed got none. He contended that on June 80th last a. balance of some .£4,819,000 was available for expenditure to relieve the t-n----employed; besides a large s\im that vas ear-marked for railway expenditure, and the spending of which would also find work for many unemployed. In previous years, the Government had worked on much smaller balances than it was working on to-day—balances of .£4.00,000 or «£7CO,(KX), in place of balances of four millions to seven millions or more. This, though every year, the city councils of the Dominion were' in the habit of working on an overdraft until their rates came in. He pointed out that the law in this country prevented the trade unions building up, os the unions had done in the Oid Country, a special fund to deal with the unemployed problem. Ho commented on the fact that tb.9 Dominion had borrowed 0045,008,000 since 1919: and said that it should not take much statesmanship to run a little country of 1£ millions of people on such a borrowing policy as that. He twitted the Prime Minister on his optimism at Foxton as compared with bis pessimism in the House, remarking that "no doubt the condition of the country did look rosiei through the bottom of a 'dass,” than in Parliament with cool critics in front of him. (Laughter.) So at Foxton, the Prime Minister said that he thought we had the corner: and thereat, like a do* chasing its own tail and catching sight of it, he seemed very happy. And at the elections the accumulated surplus would again score its purpose. He did not say that it would be used for any improper purposes, but the Minister would throw out his chest, point to the surplus, claim that his finance was fully justified, and that as he had predicted the country had turned the corner again. (Laughter.) He declared that the Government, in its rapid deflation of monev, had lent itself to the interests of the moneyed people of the country at the expense of the industrial workers and the working farmer*. It had shifted taxation off those who held the land and the money of the country, and had put a million on the mass of the people by way of Customs taxation; while the 5s a week taken off the wages of the workers had reduced their purchasing-power by two millions a year, and a further 14 millions had been taken off the wages and salaries of the Public Service. It paid these moneyed people to have unemployed, because it meant deflation by reducing wages. Thet wanted low wages and low prices, because that meant that their monev went further. But he believed in high prices and high wages for a young country like this. If such tactics were continued they must result in industrial trouble: and he urged the Government: to muzzle the Welfare league and the Farmers’ Unions, otherwise their pinpricking of the workers must result in trouble. The Rhir> of State wa« likely to run on the rocks foT the lack of a helmsman who understood navigation—for lack of a Minister who understood economics.

“DYING ON ITS FEET” MR JONES ON THE LIBERAL PARTY. Mr. D. Jon«s (Kaiapoi) said that the liberal Party was dying on ita feet, because it was clinging to the carcase of a dead policy. What principles would four-fifths of the members on the Liberal benches have to change if they crossed over to the Reform benches ? Mr W./A. Veitch: They would have to give up all they hare. Mir Jones: And that would not be much. He stated that under the Liberal Government the unemployment in the country had been eo bad that the liberal Prime Minister could hardly get a steamer to take him out of the country. He claimed that the publio servants and the workers generally were better off under the present Government than under the Liberal Party, and that the Reform Party was the real Labouu Party, though it was not generally recognised as such. He charged that the Liberal Leader had been prepared to buy thousands of Labour votes, and the Labour Leader had been prepared to buy thousands of Liberal votes at the forthcoming general election. That was the contract of purchase and sale that they had been prepared to enter into. And what was the consideration to be? It was stated to be proportional representation; but ho claimed that it was not that, but one year of Liberal-Labour government. That was the inducement; but the whole scheme was upset because would-be Labour candidates refused to accept a policy that would prevent them fighting the Liberal seats they wanted to fight. He denied that the Government had engineered unemployment in order to force down wages, and charged the Liberal and Labour Parties with playing up to the disoontent in the Public Service for electioneering purposes. Denouncing the Labour Party’s policy of socialising all tho means of production, distribution, and exchange, he declared that Labour stood for the doctrines of Karl Marx, the doctrines of a German Jew. Mr Parry: A German Jew is as good as a Welshman. Mr Jones: Yes; I know the hon. gentleman would stick up for a German Jew before an Englishman. (Laughter.) Mr P. Fraser (Wellington Central): You will have to wipe out Buckingham Palace if you want to get rid of Germans. (’"Oh!”) Mr Jones declared that Marxianism could only be brought into being as it had been in Russia; and at Palmerston North Mr Fraser had said that the Labour movement wag part and parcel of the Labour movement in Russia. Mr Fraser: I never said it. It is quite incorrect. Mr Jones: At a)? events, it has been repeatedly stated l by tho party in this House. He declared that when he was in New South Wales, it was almost impossible 16 get' near a Minister, because the Minister’s rooms wore full of unemployed who were cursing the Labour Government. In New South Wales he had seen in thnee days more unemployed than you could find in tho whole length and breadth of New Zealand; and that was under a Labour Government with a big wheal harvest in front of them The greatest enemy the workers had got fn New Zealand to-day. he maintained, was the Labour Party as constituted in the House. The members of the Labour Party wore the greatest capitalists in the country. If ever a question come up on which the Labour PaTty could talk for two days, it took advantage of it to make capital for tho elections. That wne its capitalistic spirit. (Laughter.) The Labour Party in tho House was deliberately and carefully trying to cover its policy up, to deceive the public servants and the workers generally. „ Mr Parry: are they gerrymandering?

Mr Jones : I maintain that the worst gerrymandering that has over taken place in this country was when the Liberal and the Labour leaders met to offer to buy and sell thousands of votes. (Labour laughter.) . CHALLENGE TO LABOUR PARTY. Mr Jones: The Labour laughter is very hollow. (Hear, hear and laughter.) Was the Labour Party, ho asked, prepared to 6tate definitely that it believed in the Crown, th© constitution, and the Empire, publicly state it throughout New Zealand, and publish it in the columns of tho "Maoruand Worker” within tho next three months? Mr Holland requested that the hon. member be asked to withdraw the statement or suggestion that any member ; of the House was against the Crown, the constitution, and the Empire. The Speaker said that if the bon. member had said that .with reference to any member of the House, he must withdraw it. Mr Jones denied that he had done so. Mr Holland : He distinctly referred to the Labour Party in the House. Mr Jones repeated his challenge; and declared that if the party would not take it up he must recognise that the Labour Party stood for disloyalty. Mr V. H. Potter (Roskill): So they do! * Mr Jones: And I come to that for a definite purpose. It is time that the point was cleared up in justice to our Hmpire and to our constituents, the people of this country. Mr Holland: Who are you referring to? Mr Jones: We have a right to know; and if the declaration is not made in this House, then we have a right to assume that it is kept back for a purpose. Mr Holland: By whom? Mr Speaker: The hon. member’s time is up. (Laughter.) MR HOLLAND’S DISCLAIMER. Mr Holland denied that he had ever at any lime been willing to eell Labour ‘ votes. The only statement he had made was that he would be willing to ; argue before a Labour conference on behalf of an agreement to carry proportional representation and immediately afterwards appeal to the country. With reference to the point as to loyalty, along with the other Labour members he had taken the oath of loyalty on ! entering the House, and by so doing they had pronounced to the people where they stood; and it was impertinence for any hon. member to question their loyalty after that. The standing orders of the House, he contended, did not allow hon. members to attack other hon. members under a thinly-veiled reference to the party to which they belonged. Mr R. F. Bollard (Raglan) moved the adjournment of the debate, and at 11.30 the House adjourned till 2.30 this afternoon.