THE SECOND BALLOT

New Zealand Times, Volume XXX, Issue 6623, 12 September 1908, Page 9

THE SECOND BALLOT

legislative council debate CRITICISM OF THE "GAG" CLAUSE. ATTORKEY-G MNERAL’S DEFENCE. Tiro Legislative Council had. under consideration yesterday tho Second Ballot Bill introduced to the Lower House by the Premier, and.sent on for the concurrence of tho Upper House. MAJORITY EEI'KESENTATION. Tlie second reading of Uio Bill was moved by the A tlu. lo y-Conei al, w*o said it would be generally conceded tuat the fumlam. ntai principle of democracy was government iiy majority. No ctliei governnieiit liuu any chance of permaji<ney in the world to-day. It they could bv alteration of the elects red system ■secure a clearer and better representation of the majority, it was U‘ suable. Jlu did not say that a minority should not have representation, but it would he idle to miggest Hint any such principle i,B the .11. are system would bp acceptable to the men ami women ot the Dominion to-day. Under tho existing law a majority could have a policy and man torced upon it to which it was adverse. Tlie tendency was towards xninority election increasing. Out ot .b European members of the J louse of Lcpiceviitativtvi, onc-lifth of them were there by minority representation. Die Hare system was too complicated for tlie muss of the people. Had the- absolute majority system, as tried in Queensland, b‘‘di oven partially sucoCrtMuJ, tho OovoniimnL would havo chosen it in prfitvreuco. It appeared to have advanta^.« ovor thu proponed, but, alter a trial of save-ntecu years, it had failed. 'The papular had pass-.d the repeal of tlie ny.-lom. but it had nob been allowed bv tho higher chamber. It it ' wa*s a failure there, it wan just us feasible- to suppose that it would bo a failure here. An electoral system could not be U'.sU/i in theory, and as practical men they should adopt Uio system would produce Uio bent ri.yults. ihe Council hud hud an experience of tho second ballot system in the election ot u .Speaker, so that tho actual practice of it was not new to -New Zealand. Tno Ambassador at JJrusseib, writing of its operation on tho Continent, had declared that so loa." as there were only Iwo main parties, tue s(‘cond ballot system worked well, ami bettor and more fairly than tho one in vogue in the United Kingdom—which was tho same as in Now Zealand to-day. They could not havo a better field in tho world tor tho trial of tho second ballot system than New Zealand, where there was only tho two-party system, ilo had gone through a largo number of figures relating to Germany to sco whether there was a large falling-off—as was claimed by many—in the number who voted at the second ballot, ana ho hud found that it was only M per cent, ilo did not think it would bci nearly ai> much as this in New Zealand. THE "GAG" CLAUSE. 110 asked Councillors to bo seriously on thoir guard against sinister inUuenccs — although unconscious—of tho gentlemen of the public press, Ko doubt self-in-terests had been responsible for their outburst of indignation at the clause referred to as the clause. Thero was reason for preventing further discussion in tho press between the first and second ballot. If they were going to allow a second ballot campaign they would bo playing iuto tlie hands of tho wealthy man. In tho interests of justice and fair play they should not give any advantage to tho man with tho long purse. They either had to have a campaign or not. Which, did they want? Tho Jlon. Mr Rigg: Allow it. Voices : No, no.

The Attorney-General; The hon. gentleman stands very much alone in that selection. Ho expressed his surprise at this, as it would prejudicially affect the interests of tho classes whom tho hon. gentleman, and his confreres were there to protect. Ho considered that a good many of tho critics who had called tho clause the "gag clause - ’* hod not shown a great deal of intelligence. He submitted that under tho clause there was no gag, as it permitted fair discussion on general questions of policy, and any question of administration by the Government could bo alluded to. What would be debarred would be observations of a personal nature ns to the candidates* fitness. If there was a determined contest lx «t wren two men, and newspaper support was required—and ho said it with all duo respect —that support was more easily obtained by tho. man with tho long purse than the man with nothing but his hondsty. Tho Hon. Mr Carnoroee: That's not very generous. Tho Hon. G. Jones: Does that apply to all newspapers? Tho Attorney-General: I did not say that at all. Ho know very well that in saying what he was ho would hear about it from the papers, but he was not going to bo debarred from saying what he thought—either in tho Council or elsewhere—by the newspapers. It would bo idle to assort that, speaking generally, the press of New Zealand was superior to any other section of tho community. It was possessed of all the weaknesses inost other pursuits had. There were exceptions—notable exceptions—but if there was a contest between two men, the support of tho press would probably go to the rich man and not to the poor.

SUBTLE FLATTERY. The Council had been accused by the press of a lack of independence, which was not creditable. Lately tho press had discovered by ft kind of vision that thd Council possessed considerable independence, and had been invited to exercise it by throwing tho Bill out of the Council. They recognised the talk of the sochictivo flatterer in this reference. This was tho skilful way ip which the press would achieve its own end—by appealing to their susceptibilities. It was very much to the interests of the newspapers to do so. and he did not blame thorn. Ho asked Councillors if they wero going to listen to tho tender solicitation of the press, and show thoir independence by throwing tho Bl’l out. If they were to remember thoir traditions and tho courtesy duo by one Chamber to another, they should proceed on an entirely different assumption. (Hoar, hear.) The Bill was merely making provision for electoral machinery which in no way affected tho Upper Chamber. It had been passed by a large > majority in another place, who were directly concerned and touched by tho change, and when such was tho case he considered they should agree with tho decision of the other place. NOT FOR PARTY PURPOSES. Tho Hon. Thorne George, who seconded tho motion, said ho intended to vote for the Bill, not only because ho agreed with it, but because it was a matter which had 'been passed by persons in another place whom it largely affected. He considered tho statements that the Bill had boon introduced by the Government for party purposes as absurd. Ho threw out tho suggestion that, in order to got tho people to tho second poll, the first vote taken on the local option question should bo declared void. This would ensure a large poll. He intended to give an outline of a system of voting which would simplify the system of election, Tno Hon. G. Jones: Then wo might abolish the Council.

Tho Hon. Thorne, George; I do not know that that might do much harm. Ho advocated a system of voting by letter, which would bo more satisfactory and observe tho secrecy of the ballot. Ho urged that the Bill should be amended to more completely effect its object. On that ground tho fiUO majority clause should bo deleted. In this connection with tho 500 majority clause, tho Opposi-

tion candidate for Wellington Last might be returned witii 500 more votes than either of the two Liberal candidate*, wiio-e poll would be marly equal. AN 01'FL> v UN' r - Tho Hon. J. T. Haul ft aid the Hill was a hybrid Hill. It set out to do what it did not do. lie coiadd«. - 'red ihe Hill was one lor the abolition of public meeting, freedom of specca, and ireedom of Ixie prct-i-s. \V hilo agreeing that majority rule was llio fuuaameulal pr'iricipio of democracy, it was an undemocratic principle to give representation to the majority only, as wound Go done under the HilJ. The nroposed system was a flagrant disgrace to au educated democracy, ami should not bo adopted. He was more concerned in opposing the .second ballot system than introducing a system of proportional represeutation, but he proierrcd tlie absolute, majority to that proposed. Tho second ballot would open tho way to abuses, vVLid lie had not much to thank tho proKA for, tho Now' Zealand press compared favourably with that of \ ictoria. On coming to New Zealand from that State he had been amazed at the fairness of the reports, which were never “cooked/' as was invariably Urn case in Victoria.

Tim Hon. G. McLean ; Why should you gag everybody else and leave the press Tho Hon. Mr I'aul: I say you should gag nobody. The candidates should be perfectly free to hold meetings. He considered that candidates and newspapers could find a way to evade tho Act bctvvdon the first ami second ballot. The Government had an opportunity of put-, ting on the Statute Hook a system of voting worthy of itri tradition. At present Harliamcnt was largely a roads and bridge Parliament, and a system which allowed members to remain simply because of .success in obtaining roads and bridges was not a good system. He advocatoa a system of proportional representation. and said he intended to offer the m*mt opposition he could to tlie Hill.

The- Hon. Wi I-’oo thought the Bill had been introduced at tho wish of many candidates who had been defeated in the pant. The Hill did not aliect the Upper Chamber. Ho was not going to oppose it. Tim Hou. AV. \V. McCardle contended tlie "gag" clause had been inserted in the interests of the country districts, where candidates could not possibly canvass the voters in tho interval between tho first and .second ballot. The new system would give tho electors a right to select thoir canundutes in a way they never had before, as it would 2 >l,evol d the interference of party interests between the first and second ballots. Ho thought the Government was doing tho right thing The Hon. J. Rigg said ho did not feci strongly with regard to the Hill as to whether it should be accepted or rejected. V, ith certain modifications he considered he would be j ustified in supporting it. \t hen two candidates of the some party went to the second ballot the one elected would bo tho representative of the minority. Here was where the danger to the Government come in. Ho regarded tho experiment from tho point of view of the Government as a very dangerous one, although ho gave (hem credit for the best motives. It had been suggested that the measure was intended to crush the Independent Labour Party. Ho did not believe this, and, oven if it were the case, the effort would fail. The 500 majority provision destroyed altogether tho principle of the Hill. He was opposed to tho "gag" clause and expressed his clctenninatfion of doing all ho could to knock it out while in committee. The Bill was democratic in principle, well intended, and he was going to vote for it as being a good experiment. The Hons. R. A. Loughnan, Carncross, Macdonald, and Luke supported the Bill but opposed tho "gag" clause. The Hon. J. E. Jenkinson was antagonistic to the Bill.

Other members having spoken tho At-torney-General in replying strongly defended the "gag" clause. It -was no abuse of the cardinal principles of onr liberty to impose silence on tho press during tho period between the first and second elections. The second reading was agreed to on tho voices, tho committal being set down for Tuesday, the Council adjourning at 1(».30 pm.