HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES.

New Zealand Mail, Issue 1748, 6 September 1905, Page 19

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES.

TUESDAY, AUGUST 29. The House met at 2.30 p.m. NEW BILL. The Industrial Conciliation and Arbitration Acts Compilation Bill (Mr Seddan) was read a first time. IMPREST SUPPLY. On a motion hv the Premier that the House go into Committee of Supply, Mr HERDMAN moved an amendment that with a view to securing economy and purity of administration in the State departments, the House was of opinion that the public servants of the colony should be managed by a PubKc Service Board. They could get no information from Ministers regarding the State departments-, everything was wrapped up in obscurity, and everything done was with a view to wrapping up things. On a former occasion the Premier did his level best to block bis (Mr Herdman’s) Public Service Board Bdl, and the principles of the measure which he had introduced were never properly discussed by the House. On all hands the Government was setting up inquiries into the working of the public service. There were instances of political corruption in the police fen ce; the State Coal-mines Department was not being managed on .business lines; the administration of the Lands Department was so absolutely weak that it was necessary to refer, the whole question to- a Royal Commission. All these - Commissions showed there was something radically wrong in the control of' these departments. During the regime of the present Government the number of departments bad increased—they had expanded enormously. “We sell coal, we are fire and life insurance agents, we have State Forest- Departments, we deal in industries,and commerce, we are tourist agents, land speculators, and money-lenders.” The bill that he had submitted to the House last session was framed on the New South Wales Act, and tlie leading principles of the New South Wales Act had been accepted by the Commonwealth Government and incorporated in an act. He hoped thatsome day we would have a Board similar to that existing in New South Wales. The House adjourned at 5.30. The House resumed at 7.30. Sir JOSEPH WARD said if the system propounded by the member for Mount Ida was in operation in this colony, to.allow members of Parliament the right of entry into the various departments of State without the Minister’s authority, then the responsibility which attached to the position of a Minister, who was responsible for the administration of his department, would be sapped. The logical sequence would be to remove the responsibility from the Minister entirely, and place it upon the permanent head of the department. It was an. unprecedented, dangerous proposal. Take the Public Trust Office. There were placed in the hands of the Public Trustee the private affairs of thousands of people of this country. When they said that- a -member of Parliament should thus have this right to inquire, were they going to exempt the Public Trust Office? If so, why? If not, were the private dispositions of people during their lives accepted by the Public Trustee to administer to be under the surveillance of men -who might be members of Parliament only for one session, and then go away with knowledge of the private affairs of people, and use it in any way they liked from one end of the country to the other? Take the Government Life Insurance Department: Was it to be said that anyone should have the right to go into that office and examine the life policy of a holder, who might for his own private business have mortgaged it? Mr HERDMAN: No one wishes to do anything of the sort. Sir JOSEPH WARD: How are you going to draw the line? If they removed the responsibility from the Minister, then they were going to place the head of a department in the position of discriminating between what was private and what was public business. The more they went into the matter, the more they saw how fragile was the character of the proposal made by the hon member for Mount Ida. Imagine any public company endeavouring to carry on its affairs by allowing, say, its thousand shareholders at their own sweet will to call for papers and documents, which, until a certain position had been reached, might be regarded as confidential, thus giving away perhaps the whole position to enemies of the company. No private company in this

or any other country, apart altogether from public offices, would place itself in any position of the kind. There was no ground for saying that information regarding the public departments . was locked up. Had they not the Financial Statement, reports from every department with tables Of details attached, and information of every oonoeivable kind in the possession of the various departments placed before Parliamentevery session ? If they wanted to go further with their criticism, they could make it in Committee of Supply, or move a vote of no-confidence in the Ministry—in fact-, do anything they wished. Then, in regard to the alleged public insecurity. Was it shown in any decrease of the public revenue, or a falling-off in our stocks on the British market ? Was it shown in any depreciation of the public credit, any - decrease in the national and private wealth of the colony, in our imports and exports, or general prosperity, or in any falling-off in the Post Office Savings Banks or in the position of the other banks? He did not think so. That statement crumbled away the moment they analysed it. On the question of economy, he ventured to say that if they looked up the votes of hon members during a series of Parliaments, they would find that whenever a proposal was made to increase aiiy of the larger salaries, the Opposition voted for it. Hon members: No, no.

Sir JOSEPH WARD: Yes. The Opposition were on the horns of a dilemma. They voted for these increases, and then assumed a virtue, and asked for economy in the administration of the departments. If the Opposition wanted economy, let them set the example, but not give an empty, hollow cry for economy when their votes showed to the contrary. If they took the Civil Service as a whole in this country, it; would compare • favourably with any Civil Service they liked to name. No Minister, however powerful lie might he, could sap the efficiency of the officers of the public service. Mr HERDMAN: What about the State coal-mine ? Sir JOSEPH WARD: Out of thousands of public officers in New Zealand the hon. member had found it necessary to take almost the last department created, as a result of public clamour, and created on behalf of the mass of the people in "the different centres owing to high prices. In a great public service such as this colony possessed, if they were not able to find some men less capable than others, then the colony had arrived at such a stage of perfection as did not obtain in any other country. In regard to the Police Commission, why was not the hon. member fair ? That Commission was appointed at the request of no one, hut as certain things had become a matter of notoriety in Dunedin, the Government had deemed it necessary to set up a Commission, which he ventured to say everyone in the colony would affirm was the right thing to do. Out of 548 appointments made by the Public Service Board of New South Wales, 343 were public school teachers, and three men got £3OOO a year for appointing two hundred people altogether for other services. What was wanted in New Zealand was a proper classification of the Civil Service and a superannuation scheme' for it, and the Government would give members an opportunity of putting upon the statute-book this session proposals to that end. Then they would have something practical before them, as against the theoretical humbug and the generalities of the hon. member for Mount Ida. (Hear, hear.) Mr MASSEY wanted to know if a Civil Service Board was in the best interests of the colony or not? Mr SEDDON: Certainly not. Mr MASSEY: Tha,t was not always the Premier’s opinion. Some day or other the people of this country would put forth its majority in favour of the present Opposition, and when that day came, one of the first acts would be to form a Civil Service Board on lines similar to the Board set up by New South Wales and the Commonwealth. Mr Herdman had been correct in drawing attention to the feeling of insecurity in the country. Large sums of money had been withdrawn from the colony. There was a feeling of hesitation in the investment of money, and good settlers were leaving the colony. (Laughter.) Members might laugh, but be could prove bis statement. Mr WILLIS: You’ve been saying that for the past twelve years. Mr MASSEY hoped the time was not far distant when there would be a Civil Service Board controlling not only appointments to the service, but promotions also. The present, system was demoralising. He would like to see a return showing the number of relatives or connections of members of the House of Parliament who had been appointed to the Civil Service. One member had five of his family in the country’s service. How could such a member be independent^ After further debate-, in which several members took part, Mr SEDDON said day after day and week after weOk the leader of the Opposition and those with him were blocking business on every pretext. He was sorry for the ignorance shown by the member for Mount Ida in asking

for a Civil Service Board. One of the first essentials of a free country Avas. that the Government of the day should be responsible for the administration of the. country. The Civil Service Board in Australia was unpopular, and deservedly so. The service in this country was far superior to that in ‘ Australia, and all visitors admitted this to be so. What brought the present Government into office? Why did the people of the country rebel against the Railway Commissioners? Nothing but mismanagement. And to-day the Opposition, wanted to come back to the Commissioners. Let Parliament and the Ministers be responsible for the management of the business of the country. The Government Avas at the present time following the principle laid down of making appointments to the public service only by competitive examination. Mr AITKEN: Why not take them as they come ?

Mr SEDDON: I challenge the hon member to stand up in Jus place and tell’ me if we have jumped over any who should have been appointed. In some departments we can’t take girls because they are not suitable, but, so far aa males are concerned, I challenge him to point out where we have deviated from the law. There is the challenge to him. Don’t spare me, because I don’t want it If there is anything wrong, let him point it out, and I will very soon see to it. This attempt to set up a Civil Service Board avas a means to an end. The Opposition knew the time was coming when there would have to he a reduction. They feared to take the responsibility ; of making these reductions, and Avanted to-throw it upon a Civil Service Board. He believed that that was what was underlying this movement. It- had occurred in Australia, Avhene Government after Government were afraid of doing their duty, and shirked it.' When the number of employees was reduced they brought insolvency upon the superannuation fund to the extent of a million sterling. They, took Hem out of the service and put them on the superannuation fund. Instead of allowing for- the growth - of population, and weeding out-, there was . a wholesale discharge, and their dismissal resulted in a charge on the State, as he had said, to the extent of a million. He asked both sides of the House, bad he, or any of his colleagues, ever refused to obtain information Lom the heads of departments if it was in the interests of the colony? No answer? Then Avhat was the use of stating hypothetical cases when he asked for facts? Mr JAMES ALLEN: Will you allow - m 9 to consult the actuary on 'the railway superannuation scheme? Mr SEDDON: I do not know any case where I or my colleagues have refused proper information. . Mr DUTHIE denied that the Opposition aa as blocking business. Only three members of the Opposition proper had spoken. In any case, if one bill a week was passed, rtf' would be sufficient for the needs of the country. The Premier complained that there w flS 310 proper classification of the Civil Seryet he had been in power. for twelve years. Was that not sufficient time to make a proper classification? Mr SEDDON: You’re always talking —there is no time given us. Mr DUTHIE maintained necessary returns were unable to be obtained. The public service was a sealed booiic to members of Parliament-, who were treated like a lot of schoolboys. There was no doubt that money was being withdrawn from the country, and the reason was, in his opinion, that there Avas a feeling of disbelief in the permar nenoy of the colony’s prosperity. Mr Herdman’s amendment was lost by 43 votes to 23. WEDNESDAY, AUGUST 30. The House met at 2.30 p.m. NEW BILLS. On the motion of the Hon Mr MoGoAvan, the Mining Acts Compilation Bill and the Coal Mines Acts Compilation Bill were introduced and read a first time. MAORI LAND COUNCILS. Mr Seddon wanted the second reading of this bill carried, and the bill referred to the Native Affairs Com mittee. The intention of the Government was to make the bill merely an extension of office of members of the Maori Councils for a month. In the meantime the House would have a full opportunity to discuss the question of the native land. After several reiterated promises of an opportunity for discussion, the objections raised by the Opposition to the Premier’s proposal were withdrawn-. The bill was read a second tune without discussion, and referred to the Native Affairs Committee. .SHOPS AND OFFICES. The Shops and Offices Act Amendment Bill was taken in committee again. The proceedings are reported in another column. The House rose at 5.30 p.m. The House resumed at 7.30. " i SHOPS AND OFFICER The Shops and Offices Act Amendment Bill Avas in committee all evening. The proceedings are reported in another column. The House rose at 1.35 a.m.

THURSDAY, AUGUST sl. - The House met at 2.30 p.m. QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS. Most of the afternoon was taken up py questions from members and answers by Ministers. ' OAIMARU DRILLSHED. The Oamaru "Volunteer Drillehed Site Bill was read a third time. A WELLINGTON BILL. Mr AITKEN moved the third reading of the Wellington Hospital Contributors and Society for Relief of the Aged Needy Exchange Bill. Mr BARBER objected. Hie said the hill meant more than appeared on its surface. The rea} object was to enable the erection of shelters for incurable consumptives close to the Newtown State School. He moved that the “debate be adjourned, but this was lost by 28 votes to 27 votes, { The third reading was carried on the Voices, OTHER THIRD READINGS. The following local bills were read • third time:—Pet one Corporation [Waterworks, and Masterton Trust Lands Empowering. The House rose at 6.30 p.m. The House resumed at 7.30 p.m. BILLS FROM TEDE COUNCIL. The Taranaki Scholarships Bill, No. 2, was received from the Legislative Council, and read a first time. . The Petone Borough Empowering Bill was received from the Council, and the amendment made in that Chamber to the title was agreed to. LAND DEBATE. The debate on the land resolutions of the Government was commenced, and was continued until the sitting closed. The report on the debate will be found in another column. The House rose at 1.20 a.m. FRIDAY, SEPTEMBER 1. The House met at 2.30 p.m. NEW BILL. The Rabbit Nuisance Bill (Hon Mr Duncan) was a read a first "time. SCHOOL FOR DEAF MUTES. Osn the presentation by the Plremier - of the annual report of the School for Deaf Mutes at Sumner, * s Mr TAYLOR complained of the expenditure of £12,000 on a building which, he said, was badly designed and totally unsuitable for the comfort of the inmates. The dual control (master and matron) that in the past had given such satisfaction had been altered for single control, which had proved, very unsatisfactory. The money spent on this building would have provided for forty a country schools. The institution was altogether too costly j there were twenty teachers and servants to sixty-three • scholars, and they could only house forty of them. He was proceeding to refer to what he termed an injustice to certain Civil servants in Christchurch, when ho was interrupted by the Premier on a point .of order. Mr SEDDON: Is this to go on, for the horn member to repeatedly violate your ruling, sir? It is painful. This ts the third time in this discussion that he has referred to this matter, and ' really setting at naught your ruling. The SPEAKER said it was hardly necessary for him to tell a member of -the experience of the member for Christchurch that he must not refer to this question. , The ruling he had already given was that he could not bring in " matters that were extraneous, and if he continued to violate the ruling he would be liable to be dealt with, and might be named by the Speaker. Mr TAYLOR said he had no desire to transgress the Speaker’s ruling, and would come back to the report, and he proceeded to further criticise the institution. After further discussion the House adourned "at 5.30. The House resumed at 7.30 p.m. A LOCAL BILL. Amendments made in the Eltham Public Hall Bill by the Legislative Counoil were agreed to. LAND DEBATE. The land debate was resumed 1 , and is reported elsewhere. The House rose at 1.15 a.m.