DEPUTATIONS TO THE HON. E. MITCHELSON.

New Zealand Herald, Volume XXV, Issue 9161, 17 September 1888, Page 3

DEPUTATIONS TO THE HON. E. MITCHELSON.

A deputation, consisting of Messrs. C. B. Stone, R. Fry, and W. Spragg, representing: the New Zealand Dairy Association, waited on the Hon. E. Mitchelson, Minister for Public Works, by appointment, on Saturday.

Mr. Spragg said their object in waiting on him was to ask that a concession might be made in the railway rates charged on bringing cream to Auckland, and also for bringing milk to the various creameries established by the Association. Their reason for asking this concession was that the trade was languishing, owing to the small price which the Association was able to give for the milk, and as they desired to increase the price to the fanners, they asked this concession in the charge for bringing cream to the central station, so that the butter might be made here. It made a very great difference in the manufacture of butter, as in hot weather the farmers would bo unable to handle it, but here in Auckland, at their central establishment, they had cool appliances, and they asked, not as a concession to themselves, but as public policy, that a portion of the charge for freight might be remitted. If this was obtained, they would at once transfer it to the settlers by giving them an increased price for their milk. It would not add to the profits of the Association, but it would enable the settlers to keep on and foster the industry of dairy produce. Mr. Mitchelson : What you ask is that the railways should carry the cream at a loss for the benefit of the settlers.

Mr. Spragg : Well, yes, virtually. The colony is composed of the settlers in it. Mr. Mitchelson : But we have to look at it from a revenue point of view. Mr. Spragg said he knew the Government was desirous for the prosperity of this business. The price which the Association was able to pay the farmers, 2£d per gallon, was not sufficient to enable them to live, and if it could not be increased, the trade must languish.

Mr. Mitchelson* said it would be absurd to expect that they could carry milk and cream at the same price as butter. Mr. Spragg replied yes, but it was equally absurd to appoint teachers to educate the people. It was a matter of policy. Mr. Mitchelson' said the difference was this, that the people were willing to tax themselves for education, but they expected the railways to pay something. Mr. Stone said they did not ask for the concessions for themselves alone, but for all engaged in the trade. Mr. Fry thought they might ask the Government to look on the concession in the light of a bonus. Mr. Mitchelson : We cannot look at it so from a railway point of view, and if you want a bonus you must ask the Government for it.

Mr. Spragg repeated that they intended to give the settlers all the benefit of it, and Mr. Stone reminded the Minister that the railways belonged to the people. Mr. Mitch : Yes, but. the people expect the Government to conserve their interests.

Mr. Spragg asked him to consider the matter as a Government question, not merely from a railway point of view. They considered the settlers had a claim on the Government to foster this business, and that warranted them in asking for some concession.

Mr. Mitchelson said it would be very easy for him to say the matter would be considered, but it was useless for him to tell them so unless the Government considered the question with a view to giving some relief. The railways of New Zealand were not returning as much as people expected, and the Government was endeavouring to obtain revenue from them without, pressing unduly on those who used them, but, they could not expect that 301b of milk could be carried for the same price as the pounds of butter it. would produce. Mr. SrRAGO acknowledged that, viewed from the revenue standpoint, they were out of court, but, they only approached him as a member of the Government, to ask for this concession to foster the industry, and asked him not to view it merely from a railway point of view. In the course of further conversation, reference was made to the Gore cheese factory, the success of which Mr. Mitchelson referred to, also to the Taranaki dairy factories, and also to the fact that the dairy tins were carried for nothing. In reference to the latter, Mr. Spragg said they almost paid freight for these in the loss of tins. Mr. Hudson asked whether any complaint had been made regarding the loss of tins.

Mr. SPF.AGG replied no ; that, as the tins were carried for nothing, they had no right to complain, or give trouble. Mr. HtTDSON said that had any complaint been made, enquiries would have been instituted.

Mr. Mitchelson said the Government was very desirous of fostering the cheese and butter industries of the colony, so much so that they had sent to England for a first-class expert, who would probably leave for New Zealand next month. If the deputation put their statement in writing he would lay it before the Government, but he could give no hope that the reductions asked for could be granted. Mr. Si'kaoo said although the guarantees had been signed to supply milk at 2W, the Association proposed to increase this price, and they asked the Government to assist them in doing so. Mr. Mitchelson said when the rates on produce were reduced throughout the colony, it was on the representation and in the expectation of the traffic being increased, but they had found that instead of increasing it decreased. Mr. Spkagg pointed out that the rate per ton was very much greater for cream than for butter. heir object was not for their own benefit but that of the settler, who would get back directly all that would be derived from the concession. Indirectly, of course, the Association would be benefited by obtaining a larger supply of milk, as if the settlers got a paying price they would increase their dairy stock ; but they were prepared rather to make a loss this year, in order to foster the industry and prevent it from being starved out before next year. Mr. MITCHEI..SON repeated that if they put their request in writing he would lay it before the Government, but he could hold out no hope that it would be granted. The deputation thanked Mr. Mitchelson and retired.

THE SITE FOR THE REFUGES. Mr. Oliver May*, Colonel Haultain, Messrs. J. B. Russell, C. C. Fleming, W. F. Buckland, A. Bell, W. T. J. Bell, and Sturgcs, waited as a deputation on the Hon! E. Mitchelson, at the Railway Manager's office, in regard to the proposal to erect the new Old People's Refuges on the Hospital site. Mr. E. Cooper, chairman of tin; Hospital and Charitable Aid Board, and Mr. W. Crowther, a member of the Board, were also present. Mr. O. Mays, who acted as spokesman, said that with the exception of Mr. Cooper and Mr. Crowther, who had come without invitation, they had come to him as a deputation as the Charitable Aid Board had invoked the assistance of the Government in order to have: the new Refuges erected on the Hospital site. There was a very strong feeling against this proposal, so strong indeed that two members of the Board had resigned as a protest, and now the Government was asked that the Public Trustee should give permission for the erection of the Refuges on the Hospital site. The solicitor of the Board had advised that the consent of the Public Trustee would be required before any portion of the Hospital site could be diverted to this purpose, and he (Mr. Mays) understood that legislative action would also be required. The deputation, and a very large number of others, considered it very undesirable to alienate any portion of the Hospital site. It contained 12 acres, but only half of that was available for buildings. The site was already too small, and other adjuncts for the Hospital would be required in a short time. If they had no other site or funds there might bo some excuse for encumbering the Hospital site, but they had two suitable sites already, one at Ellerslie and one at Epsom, and in the face of these facte it was certainly undesirable to encumber the Hospital site by erecting Refuges on it. The Refuge would have to be more used than it had been. There were many old people who were now unprovided for, and thera were, he was informed, many in the Asylum who could be equally well cared for in an imbecile ward in the Refuge, but it was very undesirable to have these people in close proximity to the Hospital.

The only argument put forward in favour of erecting the Refuges on the Hospital site was that they would be under medical supervision, but they had two medical officers in the Hospital, and a large medical staff, and one of thesis might go every to the Refuges, and with the telephone there would be no hardship or difficulty, for these old people did not require close medical supervision. Further additions, as he already stated, would be required to the Hospital to provide a maternity ward, a school of anatomy, and a medical officer's residence, for they could not always expect to retain a single man in charge of the Hospital. These were the main points which presented themselves to his mind, and he was sorry that the matter had not been arranged amicably without appealing to the Government. He reminded the Minister that an election of members of the Board would take place in six weeks, and the fact that so much interest was felt in this matter would make it a test question of the election, and as the interval was so short, they asked the Government to stay their hands and ask the Public Trustee to taken no action until after the election.

Colonel Haultain said Mr, Mays had cited every argument why the Hospital site should not be interfered With, and he should not, therefore, speak to that. Of course tho old people desired to be near town, so as to be within reach of their friends and visitors, but that was a very small matter in comparison to having the Refuges on tho Hospital site, and the advantages which tho old people would have if more distant from town and removed from its temptations, which materially interfered with the discipline of the present Refuges. In otli«r colonies the Refuges are not as a rule close to the towns. One of the most important and, he believed, the best-regulated Refuges in the world, and which contained 700 inmates, was situated 20 miles from Sydney, in Liverpool. There they required no outside assistance, all the work of the institution being done by the old people themselves. They made their own boots, and clothes, did their own gardening, and provided their own ..vegetables, and the only outside assistance they had was a baker, as they had not a qualified baker amongst the inmates, and the whole institution was superintended by one woman, assisted by her daughter, and a medical man resident in the district attended daily. The average cost was only £15 per head. The great advantages of this system were that all the old people were occupied, and removed from temptation and from publichouses. Either of the sites named by Mr. Mays was not so far removed from town as to prohibit friends from visiting them. Mr. MITCHELSON said they would bo nearer to public-houses at either the Ellerslie or One-tree Hill sites than at the Hospital. Mr. Buckland endorsed the views expressed by the previous speakers, and said if the Refuges Mere put on the hospital site they would prove an eyesore to the city, and in years to come they would be looked upon as lunatics for putting them there. Tho Refuges ought to be outside the city, and the Hospital grounds made as ornamental as possible. It appeared to him that Auckland wanted everything within its own boundaries, and he thought in a packed Board in favour of keeping the Refuges there and possibly of saving some of the city rates, they would succeed in their obj':>ct. Mi. A. Bell said he could fully endorse the views of the other speakers, as, having lived near the present Refuges, he could state that it would be a grave mistake to erect the new Refuges on the Hospital ground. They should look at this matter from the broadest point of view as regarded mendicancy, and his opinion was that the Refuges should be some way out on the Kaipara railway, away altogether from the city. The strongest objection was that tho present Hospital site was already too limited, and too close to the city.

Mr. J. B. Russeix said he had no interest to serve, and was entirely free from any influence in the matter, and he looked at, the question as a resident of the city. Their present Hospital site was where the centre of the city eventually would be, and that being when the city expanded, there would be no necessity for a second hospital. The area was quite small enough for hospital purposes ; and if they looked to the future they must see that there was only space enough for hospital services. In this country, with its warm climate, they should not crowd up their houses, and while they had ample space, it surely was not, thenduty to cram a great number of people into a small space. It was said by those who desired the Refuges to be erected on the Hospital site, that it was only intended to use them temporarily, and that when required they would he altered so as to become a part, of the Hospital, but if once they created a vested interest, it would be very difficult to remove it. When he was a member of the Domain Board it was proposed to lease a fringe of the Domain facing Carlton Gore Road for building sites, in. order to obtain revenue ; but he said then and since that he would rather see the fences all down, and cattle grazing through the Domain, until such time as they became ashamed of its state, rather than consent to any portion of it being diverted from its purpose. What they had to look to was not a mere matter of sentiment, but to find out what was in the best interests of the people to be benefited, and he held that those people had no right to dictate as to where the refuges should be erected, as he understood they had clone by petition. When they looked forward to what Auckland would be in the future, when the city increased, they should see to it that they had sufficient area for the Refuges, even if they had to go to Henderson's Mill for it, so that they might surround the inmates with the comforts of a rural home, but let them not crowd up the Hospital site. It was the duty of the Government, if necessary, to provide a site for the Refuges, but they should not have a workhouse — paupershop—the most prominent object in the city. The inmates of these Refuges should be under control, und there should be a large fence enclosing the Refuges, and he objected to having an unsightly fence on the most prominent portion of the city. The inmates of the Hospital were there because of sickness or disability, and through no fault of their own, but the inmates of the Refuges were there through their own faults and improvident habits, for in this country no person had a right to be poor, and it would be wrong to have them placed alongside the Hospital.

Mr. Mitchelson thought it was a great pity that this matter should not have been settled by the Charitable Aid Board without the intervention of the Government. He had visited the various sites at the request of the Colonial Secretary, in whose department the matter was, and as far as he was in a position to judge, the Hospital site was the most suitable in many respects. Being so near the city, the friends of the inmates could pay them periodical visits, and being in close proximity to the Hospital, where they would receive the attention of the Hospital surgeon and the medical staff. For sanitary reasons also it was preferable, for at both Ellerslie and One-tree Hill the drainage was bad, and there was also the absence of water, so that he was inclined to think, notwithstanding what had been said about the smallness of the site, that it was the most suitable. Besides, the buildings, if put up there, would only be used temporarily until required for Hospital purposes, and instead of dormitories there would bo large wards. The Colonial Secretary, however, would have all the information, and neither he nor the Government wished to erect buildings where they would be undesirable, but he would carefully weigh the evidence placed before him. So far as the consent of the Public Trustee was concerned, he had, he understood, already consented to allow the refuges to be erected on the Hospital site. •■ He (Mr. Mitchelson) would carefully lay before the Colonial Secretary the statements which had been made, and would not in any way attempt to influence his decision. Mr. Mays said, in justice to Mr. Crowther, he had to state that he was not aware that it was at the desire of the Colonial Secretary that Mr. Cooper and Mr. Crowther had waited on Mr. Mitchelson.

Mr. Mitchelson said that neither Mr. Cooper nor Mr. Crowther had attempted to influence him in any way. Mr. Mackechnie, who was opposed to the erection of the buildings on the Hospital site, had waited on him, but he told him it was not in his department. What he (Mr. Mitchelson) had done was solely for the Colonial Secretary, and Mr. Crowther was perfectly innocent of any attempt to influence him in any way, Mr. Mays said the main question was to hold over the whole matter' until after tha election of the new Board.

Mr. Ckowther said that he considered Mr. Mays' statements were very onesided. The four city members were unanimously in favour of erecting the refuges on the Hospital site, so also were Mr. Niccol, the Mayor of Devonport, and Mr. Ambury, Mayor ,of Newton, and he did not think the election could be in any way affected by the question, as the members were elected by the Councils, and they had consulted and conferred together, and were acting accordingly. He hoped the time would never come when, as indicated by Mr. Russell, they would require to build a stockade for their poor, and place a stockman in charge of them with a stockwhip to drive them about. Mr. Russell angrily retorted that nothing of the kind was said by him, and it was a piece of gross impertinence on Mr. Crowther's part to suggest such a thing. That was, he supposed, the way in which Mr. Crowther acted in his stables.

Mr. Crowther said he paid his men like gentlemen, and treated them properly, and some of them had been in his service for twenty years. Mr. Russell said it was no use bandying words. Mr. Crowther should not have made statements of that kind, which were grossly false. He never said anything about herding the old people in a stockyard, with a stockman to look after them. Mr. Crowther said that was the effect, or a fair inference from what he said. Mr. Russell reiterated that he never said so.

The deputation thanked the Hon. Mr. Mifcchelson, and withdrew. MIRANDA COAL AND IRON CO.

COST OF A RAILWAY SIDING. Messrs. R. C. Barstow, D. Fallon, and P. Lanigan waited as a deputation from the Miranda Coal and Iron Company on the Hon. the Minister of Public Works in regard to the rent charged for a siding, and other matters. Mr. Hudson, district railway manager, was also present. Mr. Barstow, addressing the Minister, said that the company had to pay £100 a year rent for the siding to their mine, which had been constructed by the Government at the cost of the company, and which, with derricks and wharf, which they had to erect, cost the company £2300. They had paid If years' rent tor the siding. From the Ist June to the Bth September they had forwarded 1742 tons of coal, at a charge of 5s per ton, and seeing that they were paying such a large rate he did not think theirs should be treated as an ordinary siding, as the revenue from the company contributed through railway charges amounted to over £2000 a-year, and as two other mines on the line paid no siding fees.

Mr. Hudson said the Taupiri reserve had only a loop, whereas that of the Miranda company was a private siding. Mr. Bakstow said that they had only a loop, and he could sec no difference. Their line was a private one, the same as the Taupiri extended, and they delivered all their traffic on the loop by means of horses instead of an engine. No engine ran on their siding. Mr. Mitchelsox said he did not think it was a reasonable charge unless the Government stock was used on the siding. That he understood was what the charge was made for.

Mr. Hudson said that what was charged for was the right of access to the Government railway, and such a charge was made all over the colony. In the c;ise of the Taupiri Extended, it was a branch line, and the Miranda Company's was only a siding off the loop. Mr. Barstow thought it was an anomoly that four other mines on the line should be charged nothing, and that they should be charged £100 a year rent. They were bound by the letter from the Public Works Department to allow all traffic over their line.

Mr. Mitchelson said he would look into the matter when he returned to Wellington, and he asked Mr. Barstow to furnish him with the letter from the Public Works Department which he had referred to. Mr. Barstow promised to do so. There was another matter he desired to refer to. They wanted to get accommodation for a coal shed. They were about to get a site on the Freezing Company's reclamation, but they found that a charge of Is per ton would be made for all coal placed on it, and of course that was prohibitive. Mr. Hudson, in answer to the Minister. said that all the sites on the main road and at the old station were taken up ; but the reclamation near the booms, beyond the old jetty, was to be set apart for this purpose, and a site might be procured there. He pointed out the place on the plans. On the suggestion of the Hon. Mr. Mitchelson, the deputation accompanied him to the place indicated, and it was arranged that they should visit it again this morning.