PARLIAMENT.

New Zealand Herald, Volume XXV, Issue 9112, 21 July 1888, Page 6

PARLIAMENT.

[BY TELEGRAPH. —PEESS ASSOCIATION.} LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL. Friday. The Speaker took his seat at half-past two p.m. THE GISBORNE HARBOUR LOAN. The Gisborne Harbour Loan Committee, in their report, recommend that the sinking fund should be invested in debentures of the colony. THE EDUCATION ACT. The Attorney-General, in answer to Sir George Whitmore, said that so far as the Education Department was aware, there were no children attending the State schools below five years of age, nor had the Act been contravened. PROGRESS OF BILLS. The following Bills were read a first time : —Mount Somers Road Board ; Oamaru Education Reserves, and Timaru Harbour Board Loan. The following were read a second time : —Counties Act Amendment, Regulation of Local Elections, Puhoi Settlers, and Volunteer Drill-sheds and Lands, Wellington Asylum Home. The Hospital and Orphanage Reserves Bill was committed and reported with amendments. EXTENSION OF TELEGRAPH. In connection with the adjourned debate on the extension of the telegraph from Tologa Bay to Awanui, the motion was agreed to on a division by 18 to 9. THE TOTALISATOR. The debate on the totalisator question was continued, and disposed of by Mr. Swanson moving the previous question, both the motion and the amendment being thus thrown out. The Council rose at 4.20 p.m. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES. Friday. The House met at half-past two p.m. ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS. Replying to questions, it was stated that the contract for the Midland Railway had not yet been signed, and was awaiting a few slight amendments, but the Government would take care that no unnecessary delay would take place in the signing of the contract; that it was clear from the Customs Duties Bill the primage duty of one per cent, should be charged on the nett invoice price of goods plus ten per cent. THE LEGISLATIVE ESTIMATES. Sir H. Atkinson moved that the House do forthwith resolve itself into a Committee of the Whole, to consider the following resolution, " That this House is of opinion that the Government should be responsible for the Legislative Estimates." Agreed to, and the House went into t committee. Sir H. Atkinson said it appeared to the Government that this was the most convenient way of dealing with this matter. He contended that no undue power would be given to the Government by putting the salaries of those officers under their control, and that no possible harm could come of it. He wished the question to be considered altogether apart from party feelLogs. Mr. Downie Stewart opposed the motion at some length, and moved as an amendment, " That the House and Speaker should continue responsible for the, Legislative estimates." Mr. Barron supported the motion, and quoted from the evidence given before the select committee by Major Campbell, the present Clerk of Parliaments, in which he read letters from Sir Erskine May to the effect that the legislative officers of the Imperial Parliament were under the control of the Government. Sir M. O'Rorke said Sir Erskine May had never published that letter. He warmly opposed the motion brought down by the Premier, and contended that the Ealaries of the legislative officers should be left in his (the Speaker's) hands, as had been the custom for many years past. He regretted that the question was brought forward by the present Premier, for he suspected the reason was because of the pensions to which two officers of the House were entitled. He appealed to the House to keep this matter under its own control, and not relegate it to a foreign body. He complained that neither himself nor the other Speaker had been asked to give evidence before the committee on, legislative expenditure in 1886. After a careful search of the records of the other colonies, he had been unable to find a single instance in which legislative officers were not under control of Parliament. The present movement was, he felt, unconstitutional, and an unwarrantable attempt to interfere with the privileges of the Speaker of the House. ■ Mr. O'Conor defended the action he had formerly taken, and strongly supported the motion.

The Premier said he had heard the Speaker's remarks with extreme regret, for they amounted to a distinct charge of corruption against the Government, inasmuch as he distinctly stated their whole object was to drive two officers entitled to pensions out of their posts, in order that the Government might save the filling up of their places. He repudiated any such intention. His whole object was to secure the services of the legislative jfficers during the time the House was not sitting. At present they drew high salaries, and did nothing for many months of the year. He believed his proposals were reasonable, and in accordance with the wishes of > the House. If not they had only to say so, for tha Government had no strong feeling in the matter. Mr. Downie Stewart implored the House not to infringe the great principle which had ruled it so long by taking control of these officers out of the Speaker's hands. Mr. Ballanck thought the proceedings of Mr. O'Connor 8 committee proved that these salaries should not be put under the control of the Government. He did not see any necessity for the action of the Government. There had been more debates over these legislative salaries than anything else on the Estimates, and there had been no want of revision by the House. If once these salaries were reduced they would be beyond the control of the House, who would have no power of raising them, and in effect the House would be parting with its undoubted privileges. Mr. Hislop condemned the tone of Mr. Ballance's remarks. He seemed to think the Government were not fit to be entrusted with the payment of these officers. How was it he had never taken any action in the matter before, and how was it the conclusions of Mr. O'Connor's committee were endorsed by Mr. Ballance's own Premier. How could the Speaker be more competent to fill up these offices than the Government, with all their facilities for getting information ? He felt sure the resolution would have no such dangerous effect as anticipated. Mr. Walker attacked Mr. Hislop, whose speech he considered a most unwarrantable aggression on the member for Wanganui. He strongly opposed the resolution, and warned the House not to let their privileges be swept away by the Government. The debate was interrupted at half-past five. At half-past seven, Mr. Peacock continued the debate. It was a glaring anomaly that the Government should bring down Estimates they were not responsible for, and he hoped the House would agree to the resolution. Mr. Moss spoke in favour of the Speaker's views. Sir G. Gret said that all his sympathies were with the Ministry on this occasion. He entered into an exhaustive criticism of the Civil Service at large, which he said ought to be protected from the interference of individuals. The Premier quoted from correspondence in 1868 between the Speaker and Mr. Stafford, to show that it was then the practice for the Government to control all legislative estimates at that time. The present system did not come into vogue for years afterwards. Sir M. O'Rorke quoted a letter of Sir David Munro's, in which he expressed a most decided opposition to having the control of the legislative officers taken from him, as unconstitutional and improper. The Premier said that was the year before the passage he had quoted, and the house, having all that had been written before it, declined to accede to the Speaker's proposition. Mr. Reeves (Sb. Albans) defended the attitude of the Speaker. They knew the Premier's opinion of civil servants. He tad told them many were not worth as muchl or more useful, chan ordinary mechanics, yet he wanted to use the officers of the House as common quill-drivers. Still, he did not see why the House ehould not reduce the Estimates prepared by the

Speaker if it were considered necessary—in fact it would be much easier to cut down bis estimates than the Government's. Mr. Fergus said there was no question of civil service in it at all. It was simply who should have control of the funds devoted to the purpose. He deprecated the personal feeling that had been imported into the debate, and begged the members to lay aside recrimination, and come to vote, which, even if adverse to the Government, would be quite pleasantly accepted. feir J. Hall did not see any change was needed. If the reductions were requisite they could be more readily made in the Estimates framed by the Speaker than by the Government. It might be said the legislative officers only had to work a few months in the year, but they must not forget what sort of work it was. He must vote against the resolution. Mr. Scobie Mackenzie said his sympathies went with the Speaker, and his judgment with the resolution. He admitted there was nothing to find fault with in the way the Speaker liad discharged his duties, but when it came to a question of one man against the Cabinet he unhesitatingly preferred the responsibility should devolve on the latter. Messrs. Menteath, Hutchison, and Hodgkinson supported the Speaker's claim; Messrs. Fish and Whyte took ths Government side. Mr. Taiwhanga thought the Speaker should be upheld, and Dr. Fitchett said the resolution really amounted to a vote of want of confidence in the Speaker, and until some reason was shown he could not vote for it. Mr. Fclton was of opinion it would do the officers themselves good to be made really civil servants. Mr. Duncan and Mr. Turnbull agreed with Sir J. Hall, who had put the case accurately and dispassionately. Mr. O'Callaghan pointed out that the House for years had scrutinised the Legislative estimates most carefully. He, himself, had been active in getting all attempts at increases thwarted. There was nothing to fear in leaving them, as hitherto, in the Speaker's hands. Mr. Cowan supported the resolution. Mr. Levestam warmly opposed the resolution. Mr. O'Conoe objected to the way in which he had been attacked throughout the debate, as the Chairmanof the Committee which, in 1886, investigated the salaries of the Legislative Department. Though never formally adopted by the Houeie, threefourths of its recommendations had been

carried out since. He strongly deprecated the mean and unfair way in which that report had been used to throw ridicule upon him. He was proud of the part he had taken on that committee, which had aimed at removing some of the abuses which notoriously existed. The House divided on Mr. Stewart's amendment, which was carried by 39 to 25. The motion ae amended was then agreed to. The Premier said the Government after this vote would refer the legislative estimates to the Speakers of the two Houses, and consequently they would have to be withdrawn for the present. The question would also have to be decided as to whether Parliamentary Buildings should be placed under control of the Speaker. The Government would now consider themselves absolved from all responsibility for the legislative estimates. Mr. Fish said the House had deliberately taken out of its own hands control over these salaries, which the Speaker could now increase at his own pleasure. The result would be to bring the Speaker into direct conflict with members of the House. The hon. gentleman proceeded amid considerable interruption to make a personal explanation of his reasons for joining the Government party, which were that the Premier had brought in a policy he had pledged himself to nis constituents to support. After some remarks from Mr. Kerr, in reply to Mr. Fish, The House adjourned at five minutes to twelve.