PARLIAMENT.

New Zealand Herald, Volume XII, Issue 4289, 12 August 1875, Page 3

PARLIAMENT.

fTKOM OOK-ePKIAL CORRESPONDED.] GOVT.RXME.NT BUILDINGS Wkiiisutos, Wednesday, S p.m. Mf=krs Rfvpep. Wood and Thompson are "having made the most pertinent «£cbcs last night. Bcm-eu is the only «ther Minister who intend, to speak, neither Mr. Reyu° W3 nor Mn Klchardson havin g is not likely to be very important. It will include Messrs. O'Conor, MeGillivray, Cuthbertson, Bunny, and a few others. The latter will iihew, by tables, that the Wellington Road Boards will get less under the Abolition proposals thin they receive. The Immigration Statement is not likely to be made until the estima'cs of the department come on in supply. The Mayor has called a meeting for toni"ht to consider the Abolition proposals. A°the notice was only advertised this morning, the meeting is regarded as a dodge to try to obtain a decision favourable to the ■ Government proposals. This, however, will be strongly resisted, and evnuudments moved in favour of appealing to the country. 1 here will probably l.e a lively meeting. .Sir Geor-e Grey has given notice of motion for the names of all persons to whom money was paid out of the North Island Land Purchase Fund, and amounts in each case. The Government will probably resist the motion, as prejudicial to the public ii.terest \fter to morrow all other business will probably be suspended, to allow of the Abolition debate to be carried on in the afternoons as well as in tho evenings. Shepherd's Goldfields Water Pollution Bill, of 2 clauses, being deemed by the Goldfields Committee insiillicient to effect its object, was referred to the Solicitor-General, who drafted a new bill of 10 clauses, which provides for compensation to owners of riparian rights. It embodies recommendations of the Otaso Provincial Council Goldfields Committee, who unanimously approved of it, and it is likely to pass both Houses. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES. [WIESS AGENCY.] Wellington, Wednesday. ABOLITION DEBATE. The following is the continuation of last night's debate on the abolition question: — Mr. Header Wood, in continuing his remarks, criticised the high-handed manner of the Government in faying the measure was good, whether constitutional or not. But if the Act was disallowed by her Majesty's advisers, who would bear the reproach"? The hon. member reviewed the financial statements of last session, when Mr. Vogel said they would have plenty in the treasury to meet everything required for the next" year, but when he got home he found lie had to raise three millions at once. That was deception, anil clearly indicated disaster looming a-head. Last year he expressed certain views on abolition. Had the bill been at all in conformity with them he would vote for it. The hon. member then proceeded to state in reply to the taunts that the financial state of Auckland was a scandal to the coleny, that with all her poverty, great as it was, she owed not a shilling. There was not one unliquidated debt against her, —simply because when the real state of their purse was ascertained, they resolutely declined to incur liabilities they could not meet, and if Auckland was embarrassed, it was alone the fault of the House it was so. If they passed the Abolition BUI in its present form it would plunge the colony into a Maelstrom of financial difficulties. It was ill to call this an Abolition Bill. It was merely substituting another name —that of Provincial Districts. The stereotyped form of laws was still retained. It was true they would not have Superintendents, but they would have satraps in their place, nominees of the General Government. He could not disguise from himself that the real object of the bill was to cover an enormous delicic-Dcy in the revenue, and that to pass it would throw the finance of the colony into inextricable confusion.

Mr. Pyke regretted that eloquence was not always a convincing argument. It was so that evening. With all the eloquence displayed nothing had been said to influence a single vote in favour of the existing institutions. The position is exactly what it had been described to be years :igo by the honorable member, namely, that the whole country was over-governed, ami a radical change was required. Still, with all the necessity for change, he contended that as they bore the burden of Provincialism for twenty years, they could s-taud it six monthe longer, so as to have the unmistakable voice of the people with them on so momentous a question. He urged them not to be hasty if not afraid of the verdict of the country. Why not wait for it ? He hoped the Government would do this. "Whatever good Provincial Institutions •worked once, they had latterly altogether ■failed to do, and degenerated into Centralism ■of the worst kind. As an instance, gold was ■discovered in Gabriel's Gully iu ISGI, and it was 1874 before the main road to that place ■was completed. As for all the clap-trap they beard about sweeping away the Constitution, it was simply making fetish of it. Ajs for a Superintendent representing a large number of the people, he had only one vote in the Executive Council, and was no more than a member representing oaly a few electors. In fact, he vraa simply Chairman of the Kxeoutive Council. He ridiculed the idea of the New Zealand colonists being a downtrodden lot. One of the chief reasons which made him support the Bill was the clauses relating to the land fund. Without those provisions he would oppose it tooth and nail. To do otherwise would be aiding repudiation. Doubtless the compact had been broken in many essential poinis, but the last stand must now be made to preserve the honor and credit of the colony. lie trusted every member of the House, including Sir George, would assist in making the Bill a complete and beneficial measure

Mr. Thomson, in a long speech, strongly opposed the Bill, which he said should have been brought down by the member for Timaru. The Ministry ooght to have resigned and allowed Mr. Stafford to form a new Ministry and introduce a BilL He "twitted" the Government with having originally taken office as Conservore of Provincialism ; now they bad change:! their and coolly asked the rest of the TTo: -ie to change their rninde also aul follow V I" 1 " The hon. gentleman condemned the cJSSfagement of the public works, of liuance, and of the way Ministers neglected their official duties, and generally reiterj.ted the leading arguments used again*t the Bill by the Opposition members. Mr. O'Conor moved the of the House at 12.26. AFTERNOON BITTISG. AUCKLAND PETITIONS. Mr. W. Kelly presented a petition from Tauranga, against the law of allowir g Maoris •to vote for Europeans, and not allowing Europeans to vote for Maoris. Sir George Grey gave notice to ask for a return giving the names of European* to whum compensation wae paid for land out of the £750,000 set apart for purchasing native lands. He also presented a petition from certain natives of Uauraki, complaining of restrictions as to the sale of native :an/ls, and complaining that the Mioris are not allowed to serve upon juries. Mr. Reader Wood gave notice to move for a return of the estimated amount of land fund received from each provincial district from November, 1875, to June, IS7D. INTEREST OK RAILWAYS. Mr. Montgomery asked how much of the £127,520 for which credit had been taken in the estimates of way* and means under the htad contributions from land fund was for hiterest on railways. Major Atkinson said the return would probably be prepared this afternoon. In reply to Mr. Von der Heyde's question why a railway wharf, costing £35,0C0 should Dβ built for Wellington oat of colonial funds

whilet -the Auckland Harbour Board had to provide their own -wharf accommodation out of money raieed under the Harbour Board Act"! Mr. Richardson said if the General Government had not found funds directly for the Auckland Harbour Board, they had at least found the endowmeuts for that body. There was no Harbour Board in Wellington. MECRANT CLAIM. . . Mr. Swanson asked as to the position of the Meurant claim for compensation . Major Atkinson said Judge Fenton had been asked to report upon it, and the report would be before the House as soon as possible.

BILLS. The following bills were introduced and read a first time :—Christchureh District Draiuace Bill, Incorporation of Wellington Athcuxuui Bill, Oainaru Waterworks Borrowing Bill, Bills for the Election of Mayor of Blenheim and the Election of Mayor of Auckland by the Ratepayers. FRIENDLY SOCIETIES ACT. Mr. Rolleston moved, "That it is desirable the provisions of the Friendly Societies Act, ISO 7, -which require action on the part of the Colonial Government, and which hitherto remained to a largo extent inoperative, should receive the immediate attention of the Government, and that further provision is required to enable several societies more effectively to manage their own affairs, especially in respect of registration, regulation of tables of contributions, periodical valuation of liabilities, efficient system of audit, and security of proper responsibility of their officers in respect of funds or property entrusted to them ; that in order to secure such provision, and fully to ascertain the requirements of the several societies, a draft bill is to be prepared and circulated among the friendly societies, iuvitiug their suggestions and concurrence prior to the next session of Parliament, and that such bill should be then submitted to Parliament." To shew the importance of friendly societies, he need only say that in the United Kingdom there arc 32,000 friendly societies, enrolling four millions of paying members, from which they nii/jht fairly conclude that eight millions of English people were interested in their good working. The amount of funds fu the hands of these societies is about £11,000,000, and it was found that they relieved the poor rates of the country some two millions. From what he had seen and learned in other ways, he considered no organisations were more powerful for exciting and keeping in play the beet sympathies of the people. It had been found that the growth ef theso societies had been too rapid for their financial arrangements, aud they, therefore, required the aid of legislation, in order to regulate their administration, so as to secure their solvency. The question was of great importance, too, if taken in connection with the system of Government Insurance. What the societies want is the power of governing themselves, and that Government should give them every assistance in the preparation of any tables required by the societies. Mr. J. Shepherd said there was a general feeling throughout the colony, similar to the feelings given expression to by the hon. member for Avon. The good these societies had done to the country were incalculable, and it was most desirous that such valuable societies should be placed on as sound a basis as possible. Mr. Bowen said the Government would have great pleasure in acceding to the motion. The question was one of immense importance to the societies generally, and their effect was on all hands admitted to be beneficial, and they were a strict example of the business qualities of the Euglish race. Still, the question -was a delicate one, inasmuch as it raised the question of how far Government should go in these matters. There was no question, however, that the importance of these societies fully justilied them in expecting any assistance the Government could render to place them upon a secure basis. The Government intended to consider the propriety of taking action hi the direction indicated by the resolution, but it might not be advisable to introduce any measure at next session, as there was a bill now before the Imperial Parliament, and as it was a question whether the bill would become law before the next session of Parliament. Considering the very large amount of experience of the Imperial Parliament, he doubted the propriety of cur going in advance of them. It seemed to be better to take advantage of their experience. The Government, however, were prepared to bring down a short measure to meet the immediate necessities of the case.

NEW ZEALAND SETTLEMENTS ACTS. Mr. I'eevos moved for a return shewing in detail the lands disposed of under the >ew Zealand Settlements Acts, and the regulations issued thereunder, shewing iu each case the date and terms of disposal, the names of the purchasers, the consideration given, thu extent and locaJity of the land disposed of, and date of the authority or regulations under which the disposal was made ; also, shewing the public reserves made of such lands, and the objects for which such reserves were made. In the financial statement he found the statement that the "time has arrived, I believe, when the committee will agree with me that these confiscated lands should be regulated by ordinary land laws." The system which it was stated necessary to change had been in existence eight years, but the public were utterly ignorant of what had taken place under the laws regulating confiscated lands. When, some thirteen or fourteen years ago, some millions of money were raised for the purposes of settlement of confiscated lands, it was thought then the whole or greater part of the sum raised would be sooner or later repaid out of the proceeds of the sale of these confiscated lands, and that, moreover, these lands would be settled on terms advantageous to the colony at large. The result was fully believed in by the Middle Island people, but not the slightest information on the subject was obtainable. From what he had learnt, however, he believed that largo estates out of these lands had been disposed of contrary to the powers entrusted to the hands of the Government. There was one case he had information of which deserved the attention of the House. There is a large swamp in the centre of the Waikato district of about SO, 000 acres of most valuable laud. This was, in contravention of the law, disposed of to a company of capitalists at 2s Od an acre, insteadT of ss. The company were Messrs. Thomas Russell aud Co. This was a very grave charge against the Government, in whose -hands the land had been placed for seven or eight years. Why should the Government dispose of the land for a mere song when peace had been secured, and when it was kuowu that a railway was to run through it or go close to it ? Why, even, could not Government improve this land, if they were so anxious to settle people upon it ? Why, he would ask, could not roads have been made through this swamp, out of funds voted for Public Works in the North Island ? Why not employ our demilitarised constabulary in their formation 7 There was no earthly reason why the public estate should have been dissipated in the way thie had been, for at least half-a-inillion of money had been thrown iuto the hands of the gentlemen composing this company. Such au act as this could not have been done in any Provincial Council. They administered laid laws in accordance with the laws of land. It would have been impossible for any capitalist in some back parlour to make sueh a bargain. Had any Provincial Government dared to sanction such a thing it would have been called a gigantic job, and the perpetrators would have been ousted from ollice immediately. It was explained in the Hansard that the hon. gentleman leading the Government, in referring to the charge, was "inaudible in the gallery." Perhaps that was the way to treat the House. At any rate, it was an instance of bad, very bad administration, to say the least of it, on the part of the Government.

Sir Donald McLean said the return would be prepared and laid upon tho table. He could inform hon. members that it was their intention to place confiscated lands under the ordinary land lawi of the colony.

Hβ wae free to admit that the original «x----nectations regarding theso lands had not been realised, and tho three millions had never been repaid to the Colonial Treasury, as was first expected. With reference totho particular transaction instanced, he might state frankly the circumstances of the case, and with tho full knowledge of these he was prepared to say the transaction had been completed upon the grounds of good aound public policy. Application was made on behalf of a public company by Mr. Thomas Russell to the Government to purchase the land. He insisted upon the upset price (five shillings per acre) being paid. There were other lands in the Waikato district for which they could get no application whatever, and at that time these lands were not considered worth five shillings an acre, and after the purchase a very large outlay was required to make the land available, and the land was sold upon the condition that of tho 5s per acre 2s (3d was to be spent in making a road through the swamp, and it was tho general opinion of tho people in that district that the making of that road and the expenditure of the company hail been of much more benefit to the settlers than to the company. If a railway was to be made it was to be made by the company themselves. The company had made a road through this swamp, and they subsequently converted it into a tramway, and all their experience had shewn that the offer of Mr. Thomas Russell was the best that could be got at the time. Motion agreed to.

CONFISCATED LAND. Mr. Creighton moved: (1) Fora return, shewiug the area of land within the conhscated boundary in each province, and the approximate number of Europeans located thereon. (2.) The area of the confiscated lauds granted to the military settlers and others. (3.) The area of confiscated land sold, and tho amount in cash or scrip received for tho same. (4) Tho area of confiscated laud now available for settlement in each province respectively. He held that the three million loan had not been entirely unproductive, in fact, taking all the circumstances into consideration, he thought tho confiscated lands were returning at least 5 per cent, on the amount of money invested in them. Sir Donald McLean said the return should be prepared and laid upon the table. Sir George Grey asked whether the sale of confiscated laud referred to had been by tho eanction of any law, or withont any legal Donald McLean replied that in making the sales the Government had acted under the power conferred by the Confiscated Lands Act; but there were certain Maori claims still to be settled in connection with the block, aud the necessary Order in Council had not yet been gazetted. GOLDMELDS ACT AMENDMENT BILL NO. 2. This was read a second time. WAiID AND CHAPMAN CASH. Sir Cracroft Wilson moved for all papers and evidence connected with the amendment of the late Colonial Treasurer, dated 27th August, 1874, to the effect, "That evidence of Ward and Chapman's case bo referred to the Government to take such action as they may consider desirable therein, bo laid on tho table of the Honse." Mr. Kollestou asked what was the meaning of the letter he had seen, which stated that it was the express wish of tho Government that the judges should be removed. Mr. Bowen said the Government had not been able up to the present time to obtain any further information, or any trace of such further information, and had therefore not thought it advisable to open any further inquiry. Mr. Eollestoa asked that the Commissioner of Customs should afford the information asked for. Mr. Reid hoped the Government would adhere to the decision they had come to, and decline to stir up any further the disagreeable matter giving food for scandalmongers. The matter had created sulficieut ill-feeling. Mr. Reynolds said he had nothing to explain. If the hon. member wanted some particular information not called for in the motion under discussion, he should move for it in the ordinary way. Mr. Bowen, in replying to the remark about punishment, said there had been certain irregularities, and these had been punished. CAVEUSHAM SEAT. The Speaker announced the writ for Cavergham, and it was made returnable in seven days from the currency of the writ, and the Registration Officers had been instructed by telegram to lose no time. NEW ItIVEK HAHBOI'R HOARD. On the motion for the New River Harbour Board l>aud Bill, considerable discussion ensued, Mr. Murray taking great objection to the making of any distinction between two bills of precisely the same nature—namely, the bill under discussion and the Clutha River Bill.

Mr. Reid complained of the action in the matter, and attributed it to the fact that Government supporters were always more successful in getting through their measures than the Opposition aiembers. Mr. George McLean pointed out that there was a serious difference between both bills. The New Iliver Bill related to a few sections of land along the bank of the river as endowments to the Harbour Board, while the Clutha Bill referred to the endorsement ot fifty thousand acres, and he maintained that all such]grants of land should be amenable to the Waste Land Laws of the colony. Mr. Atkinson also explained that the bills were widely different, aud could not be dealt with similarly. HILLS. The luvercargill Gas Loan Amendment Bill and the Taranaki Waste Lands Act Amendment Bill, were read a second time. The House rose at 5.10 a. in.