PROVINCIAL COUNCIL.

New Zealand Herald, Volume IV, Issue 1128, 26 June 1867, Page 5

PROVINCIAL COUNCIL.

■ TUESDAY, JUNE 25. iliE Spcakor took the chair at 3 o'clock. The Clerk to the Council read the minutes of the preceding sitting, which were confirmed. PETITIONS. • SEl i ll P res °ntcd four petitions from the inhabitants of Auckland, relating to Mr. Busby's claim ; also from certain inhabitants of the Bay of Islands on tho same subject. The several petitions were ordered to bo received. Mr. Newman presented a petition from Mr. Clias. Jiaseldcn, late an officer employed for distributing tho fund for tho relief of the biek and destitute and Emigration Agent. Petition received. Mr. Wx.xn brought up tho report of the Select Committee on tho petition of Mr. Peter Grace. The committee s report is, that they cannot recommend tho Council to interforo in tho matter. Mr. A. Clakk brought up the report of tho Select Committee on the claims of Mr. Busby. manwAxs act. In reply to a question of Mr. A. Martin aB to tho lands near Auckland being placed under tho Highways Act, Tho Provincial Secuetaey said that ho could not answer tho question at that moment whether thoy had. Mr. Eowe said that it was the intention of tho Government to bring every inch of land near and about Auckland under tho Highways Act. ERIIATU.M. Sir. Wynn inquired whether a passage in the published roport of the financial statement in the Council were correct, viz., " Provincial Solicitor, reduced .CIO." Tlic learned gentleman proceeded to read au struct. Ho (Mr. Wynn) had been informed that tho report was in tho main correct. Tho Provincial Secretart said that it was a mistako or a misprint. It should have been " Provincial Lands District Surveyor." Tho report was therefore inaccurate. TAUIIANOA. Tho Phovincial Secretary moved, That an address bo presented to His Honor the Superintendent, requesting him to mako application to the General Government for that portion of the foro shore of the harbour of Tauranga extending from high-water mark to a I distanco of twenty chains towards tho middle of the harbour from the several shores, respectively, as the samo appears on plan A attached. Agreed to. I MB. BUSBY'S PETITION. Mr. A. Claiik movod tho suspension of tho Standing Orders, in order to enable tho Council to adopt tho roport of the select committee in this case. Tho committeo recommended that the petition, with tho evidence, in a printed form, Bhould be transmitted to the General "Assembly, there to bo dealt with by the Legislature as thoy in their judgment may see fit. ORDER 01? THE DAY.—ESTIMATES. The Provincial Treasurer moved, That tho following resolution bo further considered in committeo : —That tho committee, having hoard the statement of tho Provincial Troasurer, approves of the reductions already mado in tho expenditure of the Provincial Government, and those proposed to bo mado for tho half-yoar commencing on tho Ist July proximo. Mr. J. O'Neill was called to the chair. Mr. Newjian said that, in his opinion, the estimated revenue would not bear out the sanguine expectation of the Provincial Treasurer. As to Customs, £58,500 on the year, the amount received for five months was £20,454 12s. 3d. There was a falling market and falling trade, and the Customs could not be estimated at the same ratio for the next seven montli3 that it was at during tho past five months. There would bo a loss on this item of probably £5000, so that the ratio of the last five months was not a safe guido. Tho land revenue was £11,000, but nothing had been received on this account, probably because thero was a vast quantity of scrip in the market, and on this there would probably bo a deficit, of £11,000. Then thero were the harbour pilotago, as to which tho want of shipping would of course have the same influence, and tend to create a deficit in those items. It was probablo, when the Council met again, thoy would bo £20,000 in debt. The paltry reduction of £2000 odd did not meet the case at all. Tho hon. gentleman would say, in that caso, that ho had laid the whole subject before tho committco, with papers and documents, u.irl it had olutcd that tho Government were prepared to accept any further deductions mado by tho Council, consistent with the effiriencyof the public service. Under these circumstances, tho Council, as honest men, should bo prepared to meet tlio difficulty at once. Ho had an amendment to move, which he was sorry to bo obliged to move. Ho was glad to see the gentlemen who occupied the opposite benches alivo to the necessity of the reduction of the expenditure. But the Council were not to go on bearing the burtbon, to their conscience, of knowing the real state of things—something must bo done that was adequate to the nature of tho case. Ho moved tho amendment, That the deficiency in the revenue of the province should bo met by a corresponding reduction in tho expenditure. Mr. Ai.nvN Mailtyn thought the question came to this, if thero was a deficiency of revenue, expenditure must ceaso ; and if thoy were to keep themselves from the ellect they must expect more taxation. Mr. Eowe said that when his hon. friend (Mr. Newman) was in office, ho had the pleasant task of increasing salaries and expenditure. The truth was, that the difficulties of theprovinco arose not so much from anything that tho Couucil had done as from 1 tho charges imposed by tho General Government. Survej's had been made by the General Government, which wore charged to tho province. Was tho hon. gentleman opposito (Mr. Newman) prepared to roduce tho expenditure £20,000 ; how would he do it ? Would he go down to the Commissioner of Police and tell him to dismiss his men ? Where would he begin ? Certainly, if something were not done to keep expenditure within income thoy would have to go to the General Government, and thoy knew what that involved. As for ' the hon. member for tho Bay of Islands (Mr. Carleton), he was for doing away with Provincial Governments. Ho was consistent, but that was not the feeling of tho people of the province. He bolieved that the people would do all in their power to preserve provincial institutions. There was no proceeding more painful than reducing salaries. Ho (Mr. Kowe) liad as much nerve as most men, but that was an alternative which was most painful. He believed that it would be necessary to have a cominision to enquire into the nature and extent of the reductions that would be-practicable. No doubt there might bo a groat—a wholesale reduction of the police force, but it must be by every man becoming a special constable ; but was that to be done without inquiry P All that could be done was merely a drop in tho bucket. But every expedient should be adopted to improve the condition of the province. Thoro should be a removal of every kind of restriction to the investment of capital in the province. He did not wish to embarrass hon. gentlemen about to proceed to Wellington, but he did say that if only a portion of the money expended by the General Government in native affairs, in sending out expeditions from Tauranga, the position of affairs would be very different. These expeditions were not characterised by a great deal of wisdom. Unless thero was some revival of immigration or other chango, thero was every probability that the customs would decrease. Mr. Carleton s .id that what had fallen from the hon. gentleman (Mr. Eowe) did not convince him that the committee should agree to the resolution placed before tlio Council. He thought the Executive ought not to ask for the approval of the Council before thoy had done something which would earn it. The resolution was premature. If the Council agreed to this resolution they would commit themselves to this—they would say that they were satisfied that these reductions were sufficient. The Council had a right to expect that the Executive would have taken tho bull by the horns. He was opposed to miserable cheeso parings and candla-end economy. Then they should not begin at the lower end of the scale, but proceed from above. There were many excellent servants who were compelled to live On from hand to mouth on a small sum, and ho had a great objection that those miserable salaries should bo the first to be reduced. There were many excellent servants in this lower scale ; but there were some otherß—ho (Mr. Carleton) would rather not say more than was necessary on this subject. He should have thought that in any scheme of retrenchment, the Waste Lands would be subject to reduction. They might propuso to got rid of the Waste Lands Office, and get rid of land jobbing altogether. Let it be done. There had been something said about ! a commission'; if that were thought to be necessary then why did the hon. member of tho Execu- > tive (Mr. Bowe) ask the Council to commit • itself to a complete and perfoct satisfaction in these miserable candle-end and chceßo paring

retrenchments. Why did the Executive, who had all the knowledge on the subject, ask the Council to commit itself to an expression of satisfaction. The hon. gentleman (Mr. Eowe) had in a.forrrer session been an advocate for reduction, and pushed himself forward in order to reduce one salary; but when he failed in that, lie himself caused the other sums reduced to be put on again. (Mr. Howe : No, no.) He _ (Mr. Carleton) was not willing to attribute motives. Well, tho mountain had brought forth a mouse. He insisted again .that the motion was promature. lie begged to say that if there was any clmnco, of its being carried he ■would move the addition of the words " as far as they extend but Bkould that resolution as amended pass, then he would feel it his duty to vote against the whole. That was a. course that it was competent for him in strict Parliamentary practice to adopt to prevent himself being entirely outvoted. Mr. Wynn agreed with a good deal that had fallen from the hon. gentleman, the member for the Bay of Islands, and dissented also from a good deal of what he had stated. In the first place as to the conduct and tho motives of the hon. member (Mr. Eowe) on the Executive bench. He (Mr. Wynn) was a good deal in consultation with that hon. gentleman during the last session of the Council. There was at that timo proposed, not the reduction of particular salaries, but the wholo system, and they, began even with the Speaker of the Provincial Council. But thoy failed on the salary of tho Engineer-in-Chief, thoy failed absolutely, and in consequence of that failure the whole thing was abandoned. He quite agreed witli the hon. gentleman (Mr. Carleton) that the Council should not have been asked for its approval until they (the Executive) had shown that they had done all that they could in the way of reduction. Why was tho Council asked to pay £400 for a department which could be conducted by deputy, which was a perfect Augean stable of waste and rubbish to be cleaned out. He knew the difficulties, and Mr. Ball (the hon. member for Mongonui) could say more about it, of getting Crown, grants. He would vote for the amended resolution, although ho would wish that the hon. member for the Bay of Islands had been somewhat more perspicuous. Mr. it owe said that ho wished to offer a few words to tho Council, more especially in respect to what had fallen from the memberfor the Bay of Islands, and also as the hon. gentleman opposite (Mr. Creigliton) cheered the statement. As to motives, he (Mr. Eowe) could not conceive what the hon. gentleman meant. As stated, tho reductions proposed last session were not aimed at any public officer, for they began with the Speaker, including the provincial solicitor, and tho only thing was when it was found that the Council would not consent to the reduction of the Engineer-in-Cliief's Balary, it was considered that it would be useless going any further. As to motives of any kind, there was no pretence for the statement. Mr. Ckbightoh said that he had not cheered in the sense misapprehended by tbe hon. gentloman. He would put the Council in recollection of what really did occur last session. It appeared that a few hon. members proposed—not a comprehensive scheme of retrenchment but merely resorted to the expedient of reducing salaries. Told those gentlemen how by doing away with needless portions of departments, they might really have commenced a comprehensive scheme of retrenchment, but thoy would not agree to any such proposal, and if they had done so they might have saved £20,000 to the province. If they had then tackled the waste lands and the police departments they might have made a saving, and if they could or would tackle those departments there would be sufficient saved he would say to the extent of £15,000. If there were one or two efficient men to makeout Crown grants then they might do away with the first department altogether. He would dismiss those surveyors. What was wanted with surveyois when there was no land to be surveyed ? Then ho would extend the city boundaries, in which he would include his own district of Newton which would come within the rating. He would propose a corporation, so that tho city could be able to support its own police. In this way they might create a saving, but not by hon. gentlemen coming down to tho Council and trying to get up a character as a Provincial Joe Hume by taking £200 a year off the salary of Provincial officers. They should take the bull by the horns. Mr. Bain' : Which is the bull? (Loud laughter.) Mr. CeelGUtox : It was only a figure or speech. But there was anothor matter. Tho orphan was amply provided for by public endowment, but he contended that tho denominations should support themselves and let those go to the orphans. As to the relief of the poor it was a question whether that should bo a local charge. He thought it should he a local charge. But t ere was an ample public estate to support all the orphans in the province. There was another proposal which might be sujjwested, namely, that a fund might bo raised for the hospital by obtaining from many who would be glad to take tho benefit of its advantages. In this way something might be effected. But in the question of these trusts £2000 hud been paid to the trustees for children maintained in the various institutions. Mr. Kowe wished to say that he had the fullest authority to say that in one instance with which lie was acquainted not one farthing of these trusts had been misapplied. Mr. CiißiGiiTON said he would do what Mr. Fox proposed to do in a similar case—ho challenged those trustees to come into the Supreme Court and try the question there. Mr. Swakson wished to say something of these reductions. In his opinion, when a man was hungry a little cheese paring ought not to be thrown away, and when a.man wanted a light, a candle end was not to bo despised. Mr. Carleton : When nothing better was to be had. Mr. Swaxsox : At all events, as these were to be had, it was well to use them lest thoy might not got better. He did not see why a great many of the salaries which had escaped should not Buffer from reduction as well as others loss in amount. He would call upon the heads of departments in this matter to set an example and submit to a reduction. It was clear to his mind that a man at£3oo a-year could afford more than a man at £200. A man at £100 a-year could afford nothing. The only thing to be done with him was to dismiss him, but if a man of £200 a-year could give something, a man with £300 could give more; a man with £500 could give more, and so on up the scale. As to the Land Department, he would do away with it, and ho hoped the Government would do away with land jobbing altogether. message so. 3. The Speaker read the following message from his Honor, enclosing the opinion of Mr. Gillies upon the bill brought in and passed by Mr. Wynn, to amend tho City Board Act, 1867, as follows :— " The City Board Act Amendment Act, recently passed by tho Provincial Council, having been presented to the Superintendent for his assent, on behalf of the Governor, has been transmitted in the usual course, for examination by the Provincial Solicitor, and has been returned with the following memorandum. " 1 1 know of no legal objection to the Superintendent assenting to this Act. At the same time I would remark that it would have been well had one or two verbal inaccuracies been corrected, before the Act finally passed the Council, and also that the Act does not appear to me to accomplish, what was, no doubt, intended by the framers, namely, to enable the City Board to pay costs out of the rates, in cases where they had exceeded their powers; but in the bona Jide belief that they were acting within them. "'This \ct gives the City Board no power that they do not already, in my opinion, clearly possess.' " Che Superintendent desires to have an expression of opinion by the Council as to whether any amendment is desired to be made in the bill before it be assented to. "J. Williamson, " Superintendent." The Council adjourned for an hour. On the House re-assembling, Mr. Wynn moved that the Council do consider his Honor's Message No. 3. He said that although not concurring in the objection, whatever it might have been, entertained to termß of the clauses, still he would move that the Council agree to the following resolution, viz.—That in reply to his Honor's Message No. 3, the Council do resolve as follows : —That in deference to the opinion of the Provincial Solicitor upon the following amendment: —That it shall be lawful for the City Board of Commissioners to pay out of the rates all costs of any suit inlaw or equity, that they may be, or have been liable to pay, or account of works or acta done by them in the bona fidt belief that such acts or works were done in pursuance of the said Act. Tho motion was agreed to. debate on estimates resumed. Captain Cooper thought that the hon. membe: for the Bay of Islands hardly dealt fairly by th< exeoutive, in referring to the mode proposed in thi last session of the Council, to bring about retrench ; ment. Neither did he think that the suggestion 0

Mr. Creighton should be acceded to in respect to tha waste lands, for in his opinion there Was a very wide field 1 of work open to that department. As to tha Custodier of Plans, tho holder of that office was unfortunate in having a small office tacked on to the office which he held. A great dtal had been said by the hon. member for the Bay of It lands about cheese-paring and candle-ends, and that ha would advocate a comprehensive scheme of reduction, but had he been inclined that way ha might have done so in the previous session. But he refused to do so—(Mr. Carleton : No!) —and certainly he did not exhibit in himself very much anxiety for reduction, of any kind. (Hear.) As to the police, there was au intention on the part of the General Government to bring in a bill to give Auckland City a corporation, and that would be a favourable opportunity of revising the scale of police salaries. As to the Northern District surveyor, he was useful in many ways, and it would be exceedingly invidious to disturb his salary. As to the Waste Lands Commissioner, it was a new office, and perhaps the fact that the present holder being a member of the Legislative Council, was con-. Bidered an advantage sufficient to make it desirabla that he should continue to hold it. Mr. Cahletox said that his conduct in respect to reduction had been consistent throughout. Under Superintendent Graham ho had proposed reduction. Be had told tho Council under Superintendent Wliitaker upon the estimates, that he (Mr. Carleton), was not responsible for them, as they were none of his. Ho (Mr. Carleton) did his duty in passing them through the Council in the best way he could. But he would again inform the Council that he had alwayß been for a reduction, but a reduction consistent with the good of the public service.- If means were not found to carry on the Government, they would have to go to the General Government and have the affairs of the province wound uo. I£ consignments did not come from home, how was it possible for the revenue to increase.' It had been said that he (Mr. Carleton) would be glad to see tha province so wound up. No, centralist he was; his centralism did not eventuate in such a disaster as that—that the province of Auckland should be a mart for laughter, for derision, and contempt. He would never wish for such a catastrophe as that. If tha . Executive would show a desire to retrench in proportion to the public need, then they might go to the public with some fruit o£ their deliberations; then there would be reason to approve their acts ; but, if this were all that was to be done, then they would be regarded with scorn. There was do longer any divided responsibility, and he hoped that in the very firßt session in which they had taken responsibility " they should not make themselves a laughing stock to the whole community. Mr. Np.wnAN" said that, in opening the debate, he did not point out particularly where reductions were to be made, as that task more properly fell upon the hon. members of the Executive. As to a commission, it was the first time he (Mr. Newman) had heard of a commission to reduce salaries. A commission was very well where there was money to spend. But the members of the Executive were really the commission, bo far &b the matter under discussion was concerned. As to the Waste Lands Office, if a scientific man had been appointed—one whose adaptability was recognised—there would bo some reason; but the duties could be done by the Deputy Waste Lands Commissioner, and why £4.00 a-year should have been given under such a set of circumstances manifested a singular perversity, and anything but retrenchment. The conclusion ha (Mr. Newman) had arrived at was that they were really prepared to make a further expenditure rather than to reduce it. Now, h9 would stipulate that the commi tee should not be understood as admitting any responsibility on account of these estimates. It should be understood at the outset that the committee did not agree in these estimates. He (Mr. Newman) regretted that the hon. gentleman (the Provincial Secretary) had not had more time to consider these estimates. He believed the hon. members on tha executive benches, when they again come before tha Council, they would come with Eorrowful faces. Ha had no doubt in the future prosperity of the Province. It would get over tho present as it had got over former difficulties. He believed (he did not mention it as a fact) that there was £9000 which should have been invested, and that there was a balance of £5000 in the bank. That £9000 was not invested, and he believed if the figures were worked out properly they were really insolvent. He thought that there might bo a little sweeping reduction in the Police force. Tho diminished population, the departure of the military had decreased the bustle, diminished the dissipation, which originated crime, and consequently crime itself. Then, rentals were not one half; provisions were very much cheaper. As to the Public Works department, several members of the Council could not forget the threats of resignation and the other artifices amounting to almost intimidation, by which the salaries were maintained—certainly by some in the Public Works Department. Now, if there was so small a deficiency as some £1,300, then there could bo no great difficulty in the hon. gentleman (Mr. Eowe) coming over to the other side of the question, and make further reduction —that was to say if he had any faith in his own estimates. It followed if trade was paralysed, the employment of the people was lessened, and in proportion, the employment of the public offices would be diminished. He thought that the officeß could be maintained, and yet a very . much greater reduction in th'a expenditure. But he would hold the hon. gentlemen opposite responsible if the Council should be in debt at the next session, Mr. Howe : How can the hon. gentleman hold us responsible for estimates made by Mr. Whitaker's Government now that half-year of the year is passed away. There had been a great deal said by the hon. member for the Bay of Islands (Mr. Carleton), and the lion, gentleman Mr. Newman had talked about holding the Executive responsible for this and that and the other; why, what was the fact ? It was this, thot part of the difficulty in which the province found itself that day was because some ot those gentlemen who preceded the?present Government in office, had spent thousands upon thousands of pounds for which the Council never voted, but which had to be paid. He (Mr. Eowe) was afraid that he could not command the ability necessary to tho great exigency of the case, but he would continue to do his duty, and the only consolation ho could feol was in doing his duty faithfully in a timo of difficulty and crisis. As to the hon.gentleman opposite, there was no doubt about the fact that he was one of those who passed the last estimates through the House, and could not escape from that. Mr. Keiir asked whether the committee could reduce the salaries of the Waste Lands and Police departments and other departments. Mr. Rows: No, they must take the recommendations as a whole. Mr. Dicnax said the real question was not the framing of estimates, but the reduction of expenditure ; those reductions must be effected with a view to what could legally be done. An Hon* Member : Take the bull by tho horns. ; Mr. Dignax : It was possible, in answer to that gentleman, and using another equally old illustration, that if they were to catch the bull by the hornß tliey might happen to catch the bow by the wrong ear. (Loud laughter.) Hon ■ gentlemen should recollect that the difficulties in the way of such, a sweeping reduction as they advised could only be met by perhaps coming down with a bill of indemnity now and again, and the announcement of actions and legal proceedings. As to the Waste Lands Office, where was information to be had of land in the Waikato, Bay of Islands, or the remote parts of the province. Were they to go for it to the Southern Cross. Mr. Carleton : The survey office, whioh I propose to retain. Mr. Dignan : Then why did not the hon. gentleman make the reduction when he was in office. Iha Executive ought to have fair play, and if at the end of the year they did not make ends meet, then they would place themselves in the hands of the Council. Mr. Carlbtox : Because I was not my own master. Those hon. gentlemen are their own masters and only amenable to an adverse vote of tha Council. He (Mr. Carleton) had always been opposed to land jobbing, but in the matter referred to he had to carry out the views of others. He saw that great discontent would arise out of doors if the Council passed these resolutions, and separated without doing anything—indeed doing worse than nothing at all. The Pnovrxcuu. Treasurer narrated the various interpellations which had taken place in the Council relative to the intentions of the Government upon the matter of retrenchment. The Government undertook to do this—not frame new estimates, or to repeal the Appropriation Act, but place before ' the Council what reductions were practicable in the 1 present circumstances. It might be thought by ' some that the Government had not gone far enough, and others that they had gone too far ; but if the t Government had taken the medium. course, they bftd

probably taken the most desirable course. The truth \yas, that no other course was open to the Executive than that which they had taken. As to withdrawing the resolution, what would be the effect P It would be simply to lea to things as they were. What other could the Executivo liavo done than make tho five months of the year past tho basis of a calculation to guide them a 9 to the results of the remaining seven months. If tho Council approved the reductions why should not fhoy 6ay so ? If thev did not approve of them they had the powor to say so. TTa (the Provincial Trcasuror)liad no objection to tho adoption by tho Executive of the words suggested by the lion o member for the Biy of Islands, "so far as they extend." It should be considered by the Council that there had been no time to instituto those searching inquiring which would enable them to• make any radical or organic changes. Mr. Ball said thero was another kind of centralism besides that which had been spoken of. Nearly the whole of the half-n.illion loan had been expended within a limited radius round Auckland. Instead of the Government retrenching they had fixed two excrescences on tho bod}' corporate. Mr. Sows: I wish "the hon. gentleman distinctly to understand that the present Government aro not responsible for a single one of thoso appointments or estimates.

Mr. Ball withdrew the expression. At all events the reductions were not in accordance either with the reduced rates of living, the necessities of the province, nor in accordance with the exigencies of the time. I Col. Peacocke said that he had absented himself for a considerable time from the Council chamber, as he felt the debate was taking a turn somewhat personal to himself. He would take the opportunity of Baying a few words in vindication of himself, and the department which had been placed under his charge. Ee could assure the Council that every person in that office was employed for the full hours—even under the recent extension —and sometimes they had to take papers home and work upon them far into the night. "When he (Col. Peacocke) had recently to accompany the Superintendent into the Waikato, he waa absent for four days, and upon his return he found work accumulated to that extent that it took him ten days to overtake so as to be in the position in which he was at his departure, He should inform the Council that he had not sought the appointment, the appointment had sought him, and when the Government, gave it to him they were perfectly disinterested, for he was not aware that he could gire to it any very distinguished support, otherwise than being able to offer a few suggestions in. council whenever questions were raised in which principles were involved. Several things had been imputed to the department, such as slovenliness, but he thought tho hon. gentleman (Mr. Creighton) must have made the imputation .from hearsay. For himself he had been employed every hour of the day in writing, and it was necessary to write with care, and put the subject in a consecutive form, to be submitted, probably, to a sharp-eyed lawyer. The hon. gentleman went at some length iutc the history of the waste lands department. As to going down to "Wellington, he was not bound to go down to Wellington, but in underlying the department he (Col. Peacocke) felt that he was undertaking a public duty. The Superintendent had informed him that he would desire him to be in Wellington to take charge of measures which he should bring into the General Assembly (the House of Representatives). In consequence he (Colonel Peacocke) had removed his family into the Waikato —not on land acquired from the province, for he was not indebted to the province for a single acre. As for being pushed from " pillar to post," slovenliness, negligence, &c., he repudiated those charges. They were charges calculated to have a serious effect if left uncontradicted. If those gentlemen who uttered those charges came to the office they ■would find out their mistake. The tendency of Provincial Councils was diverging towards Town Councils. If that were desired by those gentlemen let it be so ; but he felt it his duty to defend a number of men who were doing their duty diligently and faithfully to the public. Mr. Creighton said if the Council could not say yea or nay to the particular items, then it was surplusage to ask the approval of the Council. That being so, the Executive might withdraw their resolution, and the Council would leave them independent to act as they thought fit. As to the speech of Colonel Peacocke, he proved that " too many cooks spoiled the broth." It appeared to him that that department could not compile a map of the parishes, and such a map could not be had; that the maps were overlapped and overlain with rubbish, and justified his charge that the business of the department Was conducted in a slovenly manner. Mr. Carlbtoh gave notice that in the event of the amendment being negatived he would move the following amendment, "That it is the duty of the Government to inform the Council before the prorogation that they are prepared to equalise the income and expenditure of the province." Mr. Kerb felt that the members of the Executive had not had a fair trial. He waa disposed, on full consideration of all that he heard, to vote with the Government. They had a difficult task before them, and the Council should be prepared to concede something to their knowledge of all the facts, and their deßire to bring the expenditure within income by the end of the year. Mr. May could not approve of the reductions, because they were only partial. As to combining and giving rertain officers several duties, it did not follow that the work was effectively done. He thought that if a reduction was to be made it ought to have been general, beginning with the heads downwards. Mr. SwansOx was of opinion that the £7,000 voted for the Waste Lands department was a total loss to the Province. It seemed a nice little nest. He thought that some departments had escaped which ought to have undergone some lopping. At the same time he felt- disposed to vote with tho Government. One of the members liad distinctly stated that he believed that the expenditure and income might be brought to balance at the close of the year, and he was inclined to give them a full opportunity of doing their be3t to that end. Mr. Sheehan thought, as the Government had promised not only those reductions, but as far as possible other reductions, the Council ought to take them at their word. He felt that it would be wise to support the Government. Mr. Hows said it was the int> n' ion of tho Government to resist the amendment, but they were willing to add the following words —" as far as they extend, and is of opinion that still further reductions should be made, should the state of the revenue render it necessary, and with due regard to the efficiency of the public service." As to Mr. Carleton's amendment, the Government had stated that they would endeavour to equalise income and expenditure. Mr. Newman's amendment, " That the deficiency in the revenue of the province should be met by a corresponding reduction in expenditure," was negatived. Mr. Carleton's amendment was put and negatived. The resolution of the Government as amended was about to be put, Mr. May moved that words be also added to the effect, "Thit all salaries above £250 a-year be reduced by 20 per cent., viz., at the same rate as already made." Mr. Rowe objected to Mr. May's addition being allowed to bo tacked to the Government resolution. Mr. Oreigjiton said that in allowing £4-00 a-year unreduced salaries to the Commissioner of Police and Colonel Peacocke, was equivalent to paying those two gentlemen £160 a-year for those services which were quite as well done by Mr. Carlecon and Mr. Beckham for nothing. Mr. Dignan said it should be understood the Commissioner of Police was left unreduced, for, it should be recollected, that in order to perform the duties of Commissioner and Visiting Justice, it was necessary that he should have a horse. In a previous session his salary had been decreased. At a time when the gaol was in a state of mutiny, and when it was a question whether or not the military ought to be sent for, the gentleman referred to went to the gaol, and his interference waa attended with the best results. The Government could not with anything like fairness reduce his salary at the present time. Mr. Cheighton : The Commissioner of Police was a visiting justice when there was a mutiny in the gaol. Why was he to be paid £80 a year for doing what was then his duty, and for which he was paid ? Mr. Dignan : Let the hon. member recollect that he himself voted the salary of £iOO a year. Mr. Creighton* : And would again. But what I object to is that when the Government propose reductions in salaries, they reduce some and leave others antonched. He was willing that the Government should go to his own constituents of Newton and the suburbs, and say, " Gentlemen, if you want policemen, you are at liberty to have them by submitting to a rate for their maintenance." Thus there might be an efficient police force, under a muni-"-cipal body for £800 or £1000 a year.

Sir. SwANsox said that tho service alluded to as performed by tho Commissioner was cleariy within the line of his duty. He thought the principle of Mr. May's proposition tho right one, and that, if carried, it would rather strengthen the hands of the Government. If tho public revenue demanded retrenchment, then let it go through the whole of tho service. Mr. Bowe said tho Government would not object to Mr. May's amendment, put as a substantive motion, and if carried tho Government would abide by it. Question put, that the words proposed by -Mr. May to bo added to the resolution bo so added. The motion was negatived. A division was demanded for Mr. May's additions, with tho following result: —Ayes, 9 ; Noes, 10. Mr. Dignan said that tho Government had giveu assurance to the Council that they would effect ovory reduction that was possiblo. If they did not bcliovo tlio Government they might take tho matter into their own hands. Tlio' Government resolution, with tho accepted amendments, was put and carried. FRBE TRADE IN LAND. Mr. Geetgiitoh thought that one of the objects of the Council would bo lost sight of if the Council separated without coming to somo determination as to free trado in land. Tho motion he felt inclined to propose wont to tho root of tho matter, whether tho Government should charge some 30 per cent in fees. The resolution be had to propose would raise no question. The resolution was—" That in the opinion of this Council the duties and fees proposed by the Native Lands Act, 18G5, and tho Nativo Lauds Amendment Act, iB6O, upon the disposal of native lands and' the issue of Crown grants to nntivoß, are injudicious and oppressive, and calculated to dofeat the better objects of tho original Act, 1862." Mr. A. Martyn seconded tho resolution. Mr. DionaN said tho would accept the resolution as an expression of opinion, and would recommend his Honor to give to it all possiblo effect in tho General Assembly. Agreed to. ME. BUSBY'S CASE. Mr. A. Clakk. moved tho adoption of the report of the select committee. Mr. Rows wished to make one or two observations on this case. Regretted that there was so little time allowed to consider this matter. He bolieved that Mr. Busby had made a great mistake, the consequences of which ho was suffering. The province had not benefitted ono sixpence by the lands referred to. The committea had sent that gentleman to the General Assembly. Feared much he would be referred back to the Provincial Council. Others had accepted conditions from the province which Mr. Busby refused. Ho (Mr. Kowe) feared that Mr. ' Busby's case had arrived at a stage when ho could receivo very little redress. Had Mr. Busby accepted the propositions made by the Government, he would at that moment have no reason to complain. Mr. J. O'Neill was sorry to hear the statement of | the hon. gentleman (Mr. Rowe.) Although Mr. Busby had stood in his own light by not accepting less land with a marketable title, that was no reason why the Government should stand in his way. Believed that the province had derived advantage, inasmuch as tho land was more easily acquired by the province by having been previously purchased. He thought if tho Council were unanimous, such a decision would have a good effect with tho General Government. At all events it was a very bad case. Captain Cooper supported the motion. Mr. Staek: said the claim of Mr. Busby was one for the Imperial Government. Colonel Peacocks said the colony ought to hold good to Mr. Busby the claim to his property, which was a just claim. The motion was unanimously adopted. On the motion that the evidence and statement of Mr. Busby be printed, Mr. Howe said he would resist the motion. Mr. Creighton thought the cost would not be great, and that the paper ought to bo printed as a public record. Mr. J. O'Neill thought the Council ought not to be arked to be at the expense of printing. Mr. Cauletox said if it wa.3 meant to have any impression on the General Assembly, it mUBt be distributed among the members. He thought this was a public matter, and involved tho honor and integrity of the province. He thought if tho Council did anything to assist Mr. Busby, it ought to do its best. The motion was agreed to. The Council adjourned at a quarter to twelve o'clock.