AUCKLAND PROVINCIAL COUNCIL.

New Zealand Herald, Volume III, Issue 721, 7 March 1866, Page 5

AUCKLAND PROVINCIAL COUNCIL.

I TtTi£ST)AY, STARCH P. Tlio Speaker took the chair at 3 o'clock. Tho Clerk read the minutes of the preceding sitting, which were confirmed. EXEXIPBIOK rSOII TOLLS.. Mr. Evbut Mo Leak asked the Provincial Secretary, " Whether it ia the intention of tho Government, on leasing the tolls of Panmuro bridgo, to provide for minister* of tho different religious denominations from payment af tolls levied there. The PjtoviNciAL iiEcitETAuy said thero was no power given in tho Tamaki .Bridge Act to provide for tho exemption referred to. THE LAND DILL, 18GC.—ADJOUKN'ED DEBATE. Major Co or Ki: said that this bill was of so vague a nature, that unless it was to go before a seloot committee it ought not to puss. Tlio Lands Commissioner said the bill provided for a difficulty which had frequently occurred. It was impossible to aay just then what regulations th« Qovarnment would adopt; but there would no doubt bo a limit to its operation. The intention was to take tho second reading of the bill, and then rotor it to the committee of the whole Council. The Land Cojimissionek said that tho Government had endeavoured to give all the information in its power in respect to the three classes ofland which would coino within its administration. Tho object [ of tho present bill woo to give power over lands which would probably come into tho bauds of tho Government, under the Native Lands Purchase Act. When that would happen it would be in tho power of the Superintendent to dispose of such land in a way that might appear most con'lueive to the interests of the Province. There had already been projected settlements, which appeared to possess many advantages. Tho preposition had already been made for the deferred payment of lands by that largo corporation known as tho Odd Association. Another class of cases had arison. There was a disposition 011 the part of thoso who lind suffered by tho Waikato disturbances to take lauds na compensation instead of money. There were propoaals to send out a number of Germans, if th« encouragement wore sufficient. If tho Council would inako no objection to tho second reading it wna his intention to movo that its operation should bo limited to thn close- of next session of the Provincial Council. 'ihe object of tho Act was solely to apply to tueh land as the Superintendent might arquire from the native?, so as to securo their beneficial occupation. There was another representation which had been made by the natives, viz., that thev were willing to sell land, provided the Government would seeure their beimr oeeupied. Many of the natives said "do net lot. the land go waste, send pakehas to live upon tho land, and we will Bell you land."

The bill was read a second time, and was considered in committee. Mr. Coolmiax thought that the secord clause gave power to the Superintendent, which no Superintendent should have. Mr. May said lie could not support the clause in its present fchape, lie would men e an amendment which would have the effect of keeping control with the Council. Mr. Swanson" proposed to substitute the word " Provineia'" for " Executive " Council, but as the aniendraont was substantially the same as that proposed by Mr. May, it whs ruled that it could not be put. Mr. May's amendment was lost, and the clauso through committee. Major Cooper moved •' That a fair proportion, not less'than one-third, should ho expended on roads and bridges, and that tho sums voted by tho Council should bo deemed a first charge upon the revenue. 'I ho T.and.s Commissio.skr (.1 the Government would have no objection to the addition. Mr. Mir thought tho addition would do raoro harm than good. The Council divided and Major Cooper's amendment was carried. The Lands Commissioner said the Government had voted for tho amendment, recognising tho principle that money derired from lands should be in part expended upon tnose lauds. Mr. Mix said tho nmen tment of Major Cooper applied to money already voted. It was understood that tho bill should be ro-eommitted.

The Lands Commissioner moved that tho bill should become law at the end of the present fossion, and remain in forco until tho end of the next session of the Provincial Council. The word " temporary," on the motion of tho Lands Commissioner, was added to tho title. Tho bill was reported with amendment-', and the third reading made an order of the day for tomorrow (this day). ESTIMATES. The estimates were further considered in committee. 'J ho Lands Commissioner explained that it was the intention of the Government, in coiisequence of the largo accession to tho Provincial estate by the Waikato lands and tho Kast C.iabt, to appoint diatrir:t surveyors —one for tho Northern district, one, probably, to reside at Ngaruawahia, Tauranga, and Opotiki. Tho rapidity with which claims for land would be made, and other contingencies in respect to transfer# of land that might arise, would male this courso necessary. Tho following items wero passed : — District Surveyor, J- tOO ; Contract Surveys, £4000 ; Contingencies, £ 100 ; Draftsman, £1G8; Engrossing, £300 ; Contingencies, Parchment Books, £00. Total for Waste Lands Office and Northern Division. £8178. Tho following items wero voted without discussion : Speaker, £300 ; Clerk and Librarian, £250; Messenger, £100; contingencies, printing, &c., £750. I'IULIC WORKS DEPARTMENT. Item—Provincial L'lit/iiiccr. This item being moved by the PaoyiNciAi, Skcretahy, Mr. Carleton, said it would be remombered that the lato Superintendent advertised for a competent ong?neor, stating the salary £800 a year, and tho present Provincial Engineer submitted his testimonials and finally accepted tta appointment. Besides this ho was under a double ongngement, both to tho Superintendent find the Provincial Council. It was not to be supposed that a gentleman of high abilities would abandon a stable position in a neighbouring colony to come to Auckland for one [year's Bervico. Ho submitted tho item before the Council with great confidence.

Mr. Sbeeiian thought tho office ought to be dono away with altogether, thore was not a shilling fur public works. All the works would be confined to Auckland. What wan wanted with an Jengineoi J? All that was wanted was a competent Clerk of "Works.

The Provincial Sechetaey Baid the only complaint ho had against the Engineer-in-Chief wa3 that he did too much work, and that he had in his zeal outran tho vote. A very largo sun V.had beon fchown to bo available for public works, eomewhero about £160,000. Works already engaged for, amounted to £17,974; under tho Loans Act, £9,379; under tho Appropriation Act, local contributions, £4000; harbour works, £1050 ; Britomart works, £4000.

Mr Sheehan inquired why fo high a salary should be paid when tho office could bo done without. Tho retrenchment of the Government was on the poor hard working man, who had a large family and was cut down £60 a year. The Engineor-in-Ghief had done tho Colonies good service in aendiug for iron and timber out of Auckland.

Mr. Cadman : This item, if struck out, ho would Tote for it. It was an ollice useless in every point of view. There was not a single work named for which the services of the Engineers were required. r iho The only works were the wharf, a bit jof stone work. The services of such a gentlemen were not required. The Engineer-in-Chief had not abandonod any position to come to Auckland. Ho was in Sydney, out of employment, when he came to Auckland. Ho hud pitched down n few stones in the wharf, and hehad constructed the Panmure bridge, but anybody could have done that at £17.000. His estimate was £12,000 It cost over £17,000. It was said tlin bottom was bad ; it was not bad, and if tlio piles had been driven sullic'ently deep there would bo no proond of complaint. Any per.-on of competent ability eould have done all the Engineer-in-<-hisf had dono. There was not a shilling on the estimates for public works which required his services. For the Supremo Court thero was au architect, so there was an architect, for tliu Lnhatio Asylum, as also for tbo Post Olßee, with none of whom he interfered. Was he to be retained to spread stones on the Great South Road. There was a sum which might bo savad to tho Pvovinco. If the Council were disposed to give away £800, lot it bo done as a gift. If ho was wanted for tho Waikato, let the money bo taken out of that fund. Xh«s had b«sn a document showing

tow cheaply work had been done. But the person wio laid do,vii tho water pipes had been in his office, li ere ware persons who had been employed as doing labourers work, in doing work which did not appear. He did not think that the reuorfc gave a true statement. Where wore the public works to employ an -Gnginoor-in-ChUf. If it was told the Council that ho was to superintendent tho Customhouse or any named public work, then (here would be soma renson for retaining his services, but- thero was nothing ol thckind indicated. Ho (Mr. Cadmau) repeated that a poison ol very ordinary capacity would do all the nork that was required, and thero was no reason to put tho Province to this expense. Mr. Mclieou said that sonic explanation was pro- /!• , re Tr l to %v "hat was said about the office, he did not see any reason for disparaging the Engineer-in-Chief. If the office were to bo übolis,iod, well and good: but thero was hardly any use in decrying tho oScers themselves.

Mr. McLean siid that whoro there was a large sum of money to be spent, it was cheapest to have a professional talent. As to the Tamaki Bridge, the original estimate of Mr. Weaver was £15,000." Tho contract was .-£ 12,500, and it was the opinion of many that tho contractor must have lo.'fc money by it. Tho foundation was bad. Ho (Mr. McLean) had otren seen tho Engineer-in-Chief at five o'clock in tho morning superintending tho work. The Council had taken a good deal of important work out" of the hands of tho engineer, who ought to have tho .supervision of the railway.

Air. C'aiimajt : Mr. "Weaver knew th»t the money r *ed for the bridge was £15,000. In all his (Jlr. Oilman's) experience ho had never met a man so thoroughly ignorant of his professsion as tho ITngi-ncer-in-Chiof. He knew absolutely nothing of the works which, in nvmy, cuses, he lud to execute. Ho knew no moro when ho called for tenders what ho was doing. He (Mr. Cadman) hat been to his ofiice, and tho engineer could not or would not give him any information. ITe strengthened his bridge in every way ; made alterations in every conceivable way to save himself from professional ruin. He (Sir. Cadmanj went on one occasion to his ollico, end asked for information. "Oh ! " sr.id this gentleman, " there arc the plans." Then lie said, " Xhe Superintendent wants mc." Tno observation was reasonable, and off he went. When he eamo back, ho put oil his hat and said, "On ! il is dinner time." That was tho way this gentleman treated tho people of the place. No doubt Mr. Weaver had had his eve on a misfit in Sydney. Put if (hero were these great public works, then this public servant should 'ike every other public • prvanf in times of depression submit to reduction of his sidarv.

I\lv. Kvuuy McLean- suid'sn for from the swivel of the Tamaki Bridge being a misfit, it appeared to him the mo.-t beautiful p:cce of mechanism lie had eTer Teen. lie had seen a vessel iu full sail pass through it, ho had ridden acvoss it several times. It. wis worked by one man.

Colonel Praccke f ; "id that if the vague charges made by Mr. Cadman wrro true, the proper course would have been to ask for a committee of inquiry. It was improper that these sweeping charges should be undo. There should bo something specific stated, and ifstnted, proved. 'The most important ofiicer in the Province was the Provincial Hdgineer. There was said to be a lack ot money, and therefore the Provincial Engineer was not wanted. That argumont was fallacious, and if it were i.et, it was not reasonable nor economical to turn away a man until he had been proved to bo untrustworthy. And oven if no public works were to bo carried out during one year, was the whole constructive genius of the country to go to sleep ? Wero tho cannon and baggage to bo thrown into tlie sea whon they wero of no immediate use ? Ho (Col. Peacocke) would as soon think of throwing his clothes out of the window every time he went to bed as to say that bcause public works were not to be carried on one year, the abiliiy to construct them should bo turned out of tho Province. Ho would support the item. Mr. Siikhhan said the question was not as to the qualifications of the engineer, the question was entirely as to the necessity for his services. Mr. Coot.Ahan thought that there was to littlo money to be expended in public works, that tho Province could not afl'ord the money for the engineer's salary. Mr. Albvn Martin said that lie would vote for tho item, becauso he thought the oflico was necessary, and Mr. Weaver was equal to tho otliee. Ho (Mr. Martini had had some experience, and lie knew that a great improvement had taken place sinco lie came. Some might think that clever men were wanted, who would see into things. It was very nccessiry to havo such people. He (Mr. Martin) deprec itad the personalities that had been .lispluyed.

Mr. Cadman said that talent was exactly what was required, iio did not blame tho gentlemen of the Tamaki for fighting for the engineer. They had obtained a very good bridge. Ho (Mr. Cadman) did not find fau't with them, but the Council should look at the schedule that had been sent to the Council. Where were the public works ? It was said things were done better by tho present Engineer. It should be. observed hovr imieh more money the present Engineer had to do better with than the former one. What iiocessity was there for an officer of that description when there was- no public work proposed on tho estimates ? v -'a3 it necessary when there was a desire for the strictest economy ?

Major Cooi'KK deprecated anything like psrsonality. Mr. Maci.ean- said that he did not (bank Mr. Weaver for the Panmuro Bridge. Ho begged to thank tho linn, gentleman (Mr. ''.'adman) for the Tanialii Bridge, and Mr. Weaver for the manner in wliirh it was constructed. There had, previously to Mr. Weaver coming to the Province, been a diiliculty in getting an estimate for a bridge over the TamaUi. Mr. C'aiiman appealed to an lion, member of the Council (hat a plan just as good as (hat of Mr. Weaver's had been furnished, and the estimate only £7,000. Mr. O'Neux said it wa3 to bo regretted that tho pers.mal merits or qualifications of the holders of tho oUlcc should be considered. Ho (Mr. O'Kcill) was not disposed to do any injustice to the Engineer. He would placo him in tho same category as other heads of departments. Ho (Mr? O'Neill had been on tho Grand Jury a few dura previously, and the Jury-room wa? flooded. That wa" one of Mr. Weaver's works. Tho Provincial Engineer was not moro valuable than the Provincial Secretary, or tho Provincial Surgeon. He (Mr. O'Neill) would vote that the salary uhould be redured to .-C-1-00. Tho Provincial Becketahy said that the servico of tho Engineer waß wortli ten of l>imself, .just :<b a professional man was worth more than one who scribbled letters. Besides, tbo works already mentioned, there would bo £20,000 to bo expended in the Waikato. It was possible abo that the Engm.ier-m-Chief would have to undertake tho supervision of the railway. There would be a much greater amount spent on public works than had been libual. Mr. May said the ofl'ico originated just before he 1- ft for "England. Ho thought tho objection to the gentleman had been a personal matter. If contractors in Auckland complained against tho Engineer who would not givo them information, then there should have been inquiry, for the matter would come beforo the Council. He (Mr. Slay would be most sovera against any public officer who would treat tho public so, or the member of tho Norther Division. Ho (Mr. May) thought tho oflica was necessary. If money had been expended unpr"fitably. that should aljO be inquired into. He (Mr. May) had been satisfied with what had been do;: 0 during hiß absence. Mr. SWAXpon said that ho had not intended to ;iy a "word on tho subjcct boforo tho Council. h»n. oocnfcion to ask was a certain job finished ? By one of these jobs ships' rigging were endangered, and by an alteration thero wan dungor of their bottoms boing knocked in. A good job was mitde of it, but after ft pood many alterations. Another inistako had been made in reaped to the sower which, was compared to the great eea serpent that ate the copper of th« ships bottoms. Those two jobs were badly done. He (Mr. Swanson) did not think that Mr. Weaver excelled as a worker of wood. Then tho wharf cranes as tools were b«d tools. Mr. "Weaver might be a good engineer to construct canals, but as a worker in wood lie had not impressed him with a favourable opinion. As to the wood which had been brought into the Province from Hobart Town, it was not anything like aa good aa kauri. Still if within the terms of the contract the contractor could buy cheapei any where else, he (Mr. Swanson) did not blame lul * He (Mr. Swanson) only Bpoke of what he lnm*elt knew, but from what he had seen Mr. Weaver was not the man for his money.

Major Cooper thought that there were branches of work in engineeiing departments which had special qualifications. One engineer was chosen in one department, another in another, and bo on. Mr. Cai m.\N drow the attention of the Council to a resolution passed in session 17, explaining the pr«ei«» footing of thi engagement £ the Bngiasef •

in-Chief. That resolution was that the itsm was only voted to enable th's Superintendent to 1u '• competent" engineer, and positively put it on the record tbut the resolution then pas?ed was not- to bind any future Council. Theei'oro there could be no breach of faith in dismissing him or reducing hii salary. If Mr. Weaver were to bo employed on tho Hail way let tho Railway pay him. Mr. McLko!) thought that i'or the sake of Mr. Weaver himself there ought to bo a committee of inquiry into thes,) matters. Thero had been a great mistake in tho " Gore-street Jolty." He >llr. MuLeod) fpolco to the engineer on the subject. The engineer said that he was not responsible for that, as during his absence tho Provincial Government had given the work to another man, they also accepted another plan; Some of the works, ho thought, wero creditable to the engineer. The Tnmaki bridge was a good work, and spoke for itself. The supervisor of works had informed him (.Mr. Mctaod) that a great deal of difficulty l*ud to bo contended with. It were as reasonable to have a ship without a skilful captain as public works without a professional engineer. Mo did not see why tho salary of the Waste Lands Commi-isioner should not bo on a par with that of tho engineer, and vice versa. An assistant engineer was alao necessarv.

The Lakds < 'oMjirgsioxEK deprecated the comparison between skilled etlicers iu the employment of the Government, smcl tlioso who administered public affairs. Tho latter was an honorary oißce to v.'liich those who hold them aspired as an honor and a distinction. On the other hnncl skilled officers spent tlieir wholo lives in obtniuine tho knowledge aud skill which they possessed. There wad therefore no analogy. The comparison could not establish any point. Tho Prime Minister of England's salary was lower than any of the professional r.tlicers employod by thy Groverniriont. Jt' the member for the city supposed the Government paid £SOO a year for an Engineer without having emplojmcnt for him, they wero inuoh mistaken. It was possible that some very important works v/ould be carried on :11, the Manukau and in other places. Tf there were not a sufficient reason for putting tlii.- i;t:11 on the ictimates tho Government would ri"! have put it on. There was no bonus intended for an i'tlo man. Tho Superintendent hud confidence in him ns a inau of skill. x\s to SJ"-. Weaver being idle in Sydney, he (Mr. Williamson) hail evidence of the incorrect mis-s of that statement. Fe '.vns employed in the practice of a lucrative profession. Ho resolved f-i come to New Zealand, his henlth 1;' -i ' 1 (fronical cbters and laughter.)

Mr. Wu.LiAjrso: Does any hon. member deny the word of tho geiitlomen ? I think it is not proper to sneer in this manner. 11. h the privilege and tho duty of tho Council to have an inquiry if anything has been done wroig ; but it. is wrong to sneer and jeer at a public otlieer engaged in the practice of his profession. At tho Bame time, tho Government would not have pu> tho item on tho es invite- if there was not work for him to do. li 'hey were to do so, they would not be worthy tho confidence of the Council. Mr. R. Riding-s said tlmt if hon. gentlemen had adhere"! to what they at first proposed, namely, kept the office and tho person ili = ii■.c':. it would have saved n great deal of very tiro-omo talii and controversy. If the work of the r rovince was to bo properly done, there would be a profoisional engineer required. The cha ges made had been very unjust, and if there hnd been any foundation for them, then an inquiry Bliould be made. Ho thought it would bo unwise to get rid of this oflicer.

Mr. ('adman withdrew his motion for striking the item out of the estimates.

Tho Council divided on Mr. O'Neill's amendment tl at the salary of the engineer bo £JOO a year, with tho following result :

Ayes, 8: Messrs. Ciidman, Coolahan, Cooper, O'Korkc, Pheohan, Swanson, O'Neill (teller.)

fToes, 13: Messrs. B iin, Piguan, Martin, May, McLean, MeLeod, Hidings, Taylor, Webster, Williamson, Col. I'eacocke, Col. De (iuiucey, Mr. Carleton (toller.)

Mr. Swanson said he would movo that tho salary be £000. He (Mr. Swanson) had imported no personality into the debate. Ho only spoke of work of which lie himself was a judge. He (Mr. Swanson) had hhown tho most miserable ub rtiona of work, even to the Provincial .Secretary, The fault of which lie complained was ac'-nowledged and remedied. Whoever devised tho Gore-street jetty did not knoiv tho very iiivt thing that was ■wanting for Auckland harbor. It was lit for nothing else but drying sails or tarring a tarpaulin, for which it was sometimes used, until too people wero compelled to take their Grewood on to it. Had it beui placed out at Freeman's Bay, it would have been an immonse advantage to that side of the city. £500 a year was quite enough salary for work such as he (Mr. Swanson) had seen. Tamaki bridge stood alono ;it was a good job. Had the engineer b.ien able to advise with the Executive, and consult as to canal?, railways, works of various kinds, could ho say at a word, this must be done or that might be dyne, and everybody acknowledged what he advised was what ought to be done —such a man as that would be a treasure. But what works of great magnitude had this engineer supervised ? what remained of ' he works he had performed ? There was was nothing but. the Tamaki bridge, and it was said that in that work there had'been several alterations, whica had of courso increased cost. He would move that £500 a year bo tho salary ot tho Provincial I'lngiucer. The Pkovixci'.l Securtaky reminded the Council that what tho (Superintendent wanted was £800 for an engineer. It was not stipulated that Mr. Weaver should be engineer. 1 f any lion, gentleman would malrc a charge against the Provincial Engineer, and put it in writing, ho (Mr. Caih-ton) would guarantee that the matter would be inquired into, and il tho chrtrgo were substantiated, then the Government would do without the pervicos of Mr. Weaver. Tho cliargo should be specific. Mr. Cabman said that the speech of the Waste Lands Commissioner put the matter on tho basis suggested by Mr. Micawber, as if the Government wero waitiug f"r something to " turn up." There was nothing to answer the question. "Was the Province in a position to pay £800 a year, when there was not a singlo shilling in the scliedulo for public works. Question put, the House divided, npon Mr. Swanson'fl amendment, with tho following result: Ayes, B—Messrs.8 —Messrs. Cadman, Coolahan, Major Cooper, Hunter, O'Neill, O'Rorkc, Slieohan, fcwanson (teller.) Noes, 12—Colonel Do Quincey, Messrs. Dignan, Martin, May, M'Lcan, Colonel Peacock, Hidings, Taylor, Webster, Williamson, Carleton (teller.) 'Tho original motion was then put and carried. MESSAGES. Sevoral messages were roceived from hi 3 Honor enclosing Superintendent's Salary Amendment Act, which was read a tirst time; also a bill for the dis-

couragement of the giowth of noxious thistles; abo returns of tho costs of public 'buildings and works in Auckland, in compliance with the requeft contained, in nn address sent up to his Honor by the Council. The Council adjourned at twenty minutes to 9 o'clock. Keti.'bn. of cost of building tho Post Office and Custom JJouae. Original contract £21,651 IT.B.—This includes completely finishing the building in every respect. It is possible there may be ii small extra on the foundations; but it will probably not exceed £300. Return' of cost of Imiloing tlie New Supreme Court. Original contract £23,777 Eoatimated cost of finishing tho buildit g, including extra foundations 5,000 £28,777 NVB.—Tho origin ill contract did not include the plasterers' and joiners' work, and finishing inside. (Signed) Edward Hams ay, Architect.

Auckland, March Stli, 18GB. Keturn of the cost of the Breakwater at Point Britomait. Original Contract £8150 0 0 Cost of timber-facing and other additional works 3000 0 0 Total cc at of Breakwater 11,150 0 0 Estimated cost of road to connect Breakwater with Custom House-street 2000 0 0 Ketubit of cost of G-ore-street Jetty. Total Coßt £4,193 13 10 (Signed,) "Wjc. Whavbii, Feb. 24th, 1866. Engineer,