D.M. Luckie, Esq., Nelson.

Nelson Examiner and New Zealand Chronicle, Volume XXX, Issue 76, 20 January 1872, Page 9

D. M. Luckie, Esq., Nelson.

Resolutions of public meetings in favour of the Fox-hill Hmlw ay would much strengthen the hands of the members promoting it. Liglitband lukewarm, if not hostile. No time should be lost.

Oswald Curtis, Wellington, 30th October, 1871. Superintendent. That was the view he took of the matter at that time, and the letter by Mr. Lightband, notwithstanding his speaking and voting in favour of the line after the meeting had been held in Nelson, bore out all that he (Mr. Curtis) said in the telegram. [Applause.] He was not contending that any man was not entitled to oppose any measure in the House he thought proper. Should his opposition be unsatisfactory to his constituents it might be his duty to consult those con-" stituents, and if they did not; agree with the action he had taken, and ho still maintained the position he took up, then it might be for him to tender his resignation to them. [No, no.] Well, he might think it his duty to hold his seat, notwithstanding his differing with those who elected him ; and if he did think so, then it would be his duty to continue to oppose the measure as he had done before. But after having given his support to this railway, as Mr. Lightband did in the House, he maintained that he was wrong in writing this extraordinary letter, throwing considerable obstacles in the way of carrying out the line. [Applause]. If Mr. Lightband had written this letter as a private individual, he should not have taken the trouble or occupied their time in saying a word about it j but Mr. Lightband was one of the members for the city, he (Mr. Curl is) being the other. One member supporting the railway, and Mr. Lightband, the otlier, strongly opposing and censuring it. Government, on seeing this letter, and perhaps not knowing the feelings of the people, might be justified in supposing that the constituency waa equally divided, one-half one way and the other half the other ; and it was possible the action he had taken may, even now, unless it were counter* acted, do considerable mischief. [Hear, hear]. Mr. Lightband says that the money might be diverted to other works in the province, but he ought to know that if this were done it would delay any works being undertaken for twelve months. [Mr. Eowell : That's Nelson all over. Hear, hear, and laughter]. It was not in the power of the Government to divert the money ; it could not be diverted without a new bill. Mr. Lightband speaks of wooden tramways as if he had discovered something new, but these have been in existence for years in the province. Nearly every saw-mill in the country has a wooden tramway, which is very useful for temporary purposes ; but it very soon wears out, and the universal opinion of those who know anything of the matter is, that for permanent purposes iron rails inußt be used. The very saw-mill at Havelock, referred to by Mr. Lightband, is an instance of this, for the proprietor is about to remove the wooden rails, and put down iron ones, which are now on their way from England* Mr. Lightbaiid also speaks of two wooden tramways on the West Coast, upon which he ha 9 travelled. Now the proprietors of these, he was informed upon good authority, have also decided to introduce a locomotive and iron rails. Mr. Lightband's instances really answer themselves. [Hear, hear.] As for the communication between Nelson and the Inangahua reefs, he feared until they had an iron railway to Greymouth and Westport, Nelson would never participate in the trade of the Inanaghua, however great that might be. Let us suppose that we hud a wooden tramway from the end of the dray-road now existing. We should have to follow the dray-road sixty miles into the interior ; there would then be sixty miles of tramway, from the end of that road to the junction of the Inangahua and the Buller, and twenty-five miles more to the reefs. Now look at Wesfport; it is only thirty miles distant, and boats are going up the river every day ; so that we should have 120 miles, one half dray road and the other half tramwny, against the thirty miles of river carriage from Westport. What prospect was there then of entering into a successful competition with the West Coast port without a railway. If we had a railway, our port, at all times accessible to large ships as compared with the bar harbours of the West Coast, would be able, notwithstanding the greater distance, to fairly compete with them. It was with the view of ultimately carrying out that line that he had been such an earnest advocate for the Fox-hill railway. If the line was once made as far as Fox-hill, and Public Works going on, he was confident there would

ba no great difficulty in getting it as far as the Buller, and then onwards to the Grey ; but if •we did not begin now, there was very little hope of seeing the through railway accomplished for many years to come. [Hear, and applause].' Mr. J. C^ Richmond, when Provincial Secretary in 1863, proposed ihe construction of a wooden tramway to the Four Rivers Plain, Upper Buller. Mr. Richmond estimated, and he was perfeotly competent to make an estimate of the kind, that it would cost £120,000 to make 75 miles of a wooden tramway, which was an average of £1,600 per mile. He also made an estimate for an iron railway for locomotives, showing a cost of £180,000, or only half ns much again as was required for a wooden tramway. Kb proper comparison could be made between a temporary wooden tramway, such as was employed for a saw-mill, with its level road, and simple, easy, and cheap construction, and an iron line through a country where cuttings, blasting of rocks, and other expensive labour ■was required ; and as the iron line cost only half as much again as the wooden tramway, there could be no possible doubt that it was far better to have something permanent. [Applause.] When speaking of the distance to the Inangahua, it would be well to mention that Greymouth was placed in almost an equally favourable position* as Westport with respect to the reefs there ; and the Provincial Government had recommended to the General Government, out of the £24,000 set apart for West Coast purposes, to construct roada to connect Greymouth and Westport with tho reefs, which would enable these places to compete in the trade of the district. He had also recommended an expenditure on tho roads in tho Upper Bulley Valley, which would give this town a chance of supplying tho njiners there, but it would be a small chauce, which would never bo properly available until the through railway was aotually made. The next subject he would apeak of was the proposed Annexation of the southern side of the Grey Valley to Nelson. The Provincial Council had expressed a willingness to annex to this province the country extending from the Grey to the Teremakau river. There were many reasons why the Grey Valley should be under one Government j and one special reason was, that while the line of railway from the Brunner coal-mine would run down the Westland side of the river, the coal mine waß on the Nelson side. If the proposals of the measure had gone no further than the annexation of the district, and the taking over with it the portion of Westland debt properly belonging to it, be should have been prepared to support the scheme. But the measure which the Government introduced went still further, and proposed to take from Nelson all the lands connected with the West Coast of the province, including the South-west Gold-fields, and all the agricultural land lying within these fields, thus taking away the great support which we derive from our minerals. It proposed also to establish a new Waste Lands Board, with a new Crown Lands Commissioner — no doubt with a handsome salary ; and it also proposed tho formation of new Road. Boards, and to apportion to them certain parts of the Road Board grants. Had this been done, it would not have left Nelson the money necessary to support the hospitals, the police, the courts of law, and other requisite departments ; and the Government was informed that he and the Nelson members would oppose the measure in every way ; that they would divide the House on each clause ; and so, after some difficulty, the bill was dropped. Mr. Curtis said he had only one more subject to speak upon, and that was the constitution of the Upper House of the Legislature. When the Colonial Treasurer intimated his intention of introducing next session a measure for effecting large constitutional changes, it was generally believed that it was to refer only to Provincial Institutions, but he (Mr. Curtis) believed that it was his intention to deal also with the Upper House which, as ut present constituted, was unsatisfactory to itself and to the public, as it was by no means independent, the Government having it in their power at any time to nominate additional members and so secure a majority for themselves. The Upper House of Victoria was an elective body based upon a property qualification, but the possession of property as a qualification, although it might answer in England, where as a rule the propertied classes ■were, and had been for a long series of years, specially educated with a view to taking part In the legislation of the country, would not answer here where such a qualification would often mean that the legislator was in possession of a certain sum of money and nothing more. He suggested for consideration, the plan adopted in the Kingdom of Norway, where there were two Houses, whose 150 members were all elected at once on the same basis. After the elections had taken place, the members, met and out of their number selected fifty to form tho Upper House. If any measure ■was sent from the Lower House to the Upper, and rejected by it, the measure was sent a second time, and if again rejected, the two Houses met and discussed the matter, and the decision of two-thirds of tho members settled the question. By this means any deadlock was impossible, and differences were certain to be settled. It had, however, its disadvantages, as it might chance that either the fifty best or fifty worst men were elected to the Upper House ; and in either case the result would be objectionable. Still he thought the matter wo rtliy of consideration. In concluding, Mr. Curtis said that in justice to Mr. Shephard, ho wus bound to state that he had received his hoarty co-operation in the question of the railway, as also in protecting the interest of the province in all matters of financial importance. He would now be ready to reply to any questions that might be put to him. [Great applauso.] Mr. Barnes complained of what he styled an attack made by Mr. Curtis on Mr. Lightband in his absence. He thought Mr. Lightband the best member tho province possessed. He would ask Mr. Curtis how it was that he opposed Mr. Macandrew's motion for tho reduction of all alaries above £400 by twenty-five per cent ?

Mr. CtJBTIS replied, that it did not by any means follow that because an officer was in receipt of £400 a year or over, that he was overpaid. He believed that in some instances an individual receiving only £100 a-year was, for the amount of work he did, far more overpaid than others who were, in receipt of £600. [Hear, hear.] Take tlie"Judges, for instance, who receive from £800 to £1,500 a-year. It must be remembered that at the time of their accepting office they were probably in receipt of much larger professional incomes than they received as Judges, and it would be manifestly unfair to reduce their salaries. Of course they had not such an amount of hard work to go through as a lawyer in full practice, but they had entered upon their office with the full understanding that they were securing a position for life, or so long as they performed their duties satisfactorily. In filling a vacancy, the salary nrghfc be reconsidered, but this could not fairly be done with those already in office. He never could understand why the limit at which the reduction of salaries was to commence should be fixed at £400, or, indeed, at any stated sum. The proper way to reduce our departmental expenditure was by the amalgamation of offices. Mr. Barnes asked Mr. Curtis to justify his own and Mr. Shephard's absence from their duties in the province during the sitting of the Assembly. Mr. Curtis said he would speak for himself. He believed it to be absolutely necessary for the welfare of any province that its Superintendent should be in the House to defend its intereets. None could so thoroughly understand its wants as he, as it was his business to make himself acquainted with them. He wished to say that he should have been very glad if Mr. Lightband had been present that evening, and, if possible, he would have put off the meeting until the return of that gentleman from the West Coast, but he did not like to delay it any longer. In saying what he had about him, he had simply confined himself to facts, and to stating an opinion that the letter he had written might probably be productive of a considerable amount of mischief to the province. Mr. Bubn asked whether the Province of Nelson was to participate in the scheme of immigration. Mr. Cuetis stated that, some time ago, ho had been consulted on this subject, and had replied that at present he thought there was no room for immigrants, but if public works were undertaken that would open up the country for settlement, a judicious stream of immigration might bo of advantage to the province. He should prefer that the large bulk of the immigrants introduced should be from the British Isles, but had no objection to a slight infusion of foreign blood, as the Germans now here had proved themselves to be a moat useful class of settlers. Mr. Haddow asked Mr. Cutris why he supported the Stamp Act ? Mr. Cuetis said that he had voted for the inincreased Stamp Duties as a whole, because, as he had before stated, the party to which he belonged were of opinion that the revenue and expenditure should be balanced, and the Government having declined to reduce the latter, the former of necessity had to be raised. Mr. Haddow said that the new Stamp Act was the most unpopular of all the Acts passed in the late session, and was one at which all classes grumbled. It was clear that the legislation of the colony was running in a wrong groove, and it was high time that the people acted in concert in preventing these burdens being imposed. What he wanted was to Bee direct taxation, such as a property and income tax, not such methods of raising revenue as Stamp duties, or protection, the latter of which he looked upon as highly objectionable. These increased Stamp duties had the effect of inducing the people to endeavor to evade them in every possible manner, and nothing could be more detrimental to good Government than the passing of unpopular laws that gave rise to all sorts of schemes for their evasion. He concluded by proposing a resolution condemnatory of the Act. Mr Atkinson fully agreed with much that had fallen from Mr. Haddow with regard to the Stamp duties, some of which were impolitic as well as oppressive, but it should be remembered that one of the duties was on the appointment of Governnent officers, and as there appeared to be a probability of half the population shortly ranking as such, it was open to question whether this was not rather a desirable tax than otherwise. Some discussion ensued upon the undesirability of hurriedly passing such a resolution, and Mr. Haddow subsequently withdrew it on the understanding that he should bring it forward again at Mr. Lightband 's meeting. Mr. Wtlie inquired of Mr. Curtis, how it was that the honorarium to members had been increased. Mr. Cuetis stated that the question had been referred to a Select Committee, who reported in favour of a fixed sum of £105 to each member, instead of a payment of £1 a day during the session. The Committee also recommended that payment should bo made to all the members, including those resident in Wellington, which he considered objectionable. Mr. D. Macgregob wished to know whether Mr. Curtis or any of the members had attempted to devise any means for making both ends meet ? He also asked, how it was that Mr. Curtis had opposed Mr Macandrew's resolution referring to tho amalgamation of offices? Ho spoke also against the excessive borrowing of the Government. Mr. Curtis said that he had supported a resolution to tho effect that tho amount of expenditure should be reduced by £50,000, half of which sura he thought might be struck off tho subsidy paid for tho Californian mail service, and the other £25,000 be saved by the amalgamation of offices. This, however, had been treated by the Government as a vote of want of confidence, and they had got off by promising to look into the matter and see what could be done prior to the next meeting of the Assembly. With regard to

Mr. Macandrew's resolution, he did not remember the exact wording of it, and probably it had contained some provision for the amalgamation of offices, but its principal object was the reduction of salaries over £400 a year, and against that, as he had said before, he had voted. Mr. Webb then briefly proposed :—: — 1. "That the special thanks of this meeting be accorded to his Honour for the support he has given to the railway scheme of the colony, and especially to the line from Nolson to Fox-hill." He thought that we all had cause to be grateful to Mr. Curtis for his incessant exertions in the direction of opening up the country by railroads. Mr. D. Buens seconded the resolution. Sir D. Monro said, before the meeting carae to any vote upon the resolution before them, he would like to direct their attention a little more closely than had been done to its exact meaning. They were called upon by the resolution to declare their approval of the railway scheme of the j colony. Now, for his part, all he could say wus, that he did not know what or where the scheme was, and upon this point Mr. Webb, who tabled the resolution, had been extremely reticent. [Laughter]. If the schcrno in question was to be taken to signify all the railways that a Parliament, led by the present Ministry, might propose to execute with borrowed money, he thought that there were many persons in the room who like himself would hesitate to commit themselves to any such declaration of approval. [Cheers], He would ask them, moreover, to consider what position this would place their member, Mr. Curtis, in. Mr. Curtis had told them that he was one of the Opposition ; that he regarded the schemes of the Colonial Treasurer with distrust as being too large for the colony, and altogether too costly. He did not say that he had subsequently changed his mind. He was of the same opinion still, and therefore if they passed this resolution, it would be an instruction to him to abandon all those principles of prudent dealing by which he had been hitherto guided, and to adopt tho speculative recklessness of the Colonial Treasurer and his obedient followers. He trusted, therefore, that Mr. Webb would yet let them hear what he meant exactly by the scheme that he wished the meeting to approve of. [Hear, hear]. For his part, he could not see in the action taken by Ministers during last session any scheme at all — unless indeed they were to include under that term the very strong desire exhibited by Ministers to keep themselves in their places, and the very equivocal proceedings which they had recourse to to accomplish that object. [Cheers.] When the great railway policy was first announced, there was, it is true, some talk of a railway scheme ; and of main lines of railway to run throughout tho country from North to South. But that, like many other things, had subsequently been given up ; and iv point of fact, tho original views of the Ministry, in so far as they might be supposed to have had any views at all, were undergoing so many metamorphoses, that it was quite impossible to say what shape the proposals of 1870 might assume at no very distant date. [Cheer 3.] The session of 1871 might very briefly, and with perfect truth, be described as a scramble for money for railways. [Hear, hear.] That at all events was its leading, and probably its most interesting feature. A scramble of this sort had been strongly deprecated by the less adventurous of the Ministerial team. But what else could they expect^? [Cheers.] If Ministers would put a large sum of money upon the table of the Legislature, and tell members that it was for the purpose of making railways, did they expect there would be no scramble ? [Laughter.] And if these members represented separate communities and political units, could anything be expected but combinations and rolling of logs, iv which the interests of localities would be consulted ; but the colony, as a whole, would be nowhere ? They were in the habit of considering themselves much wiser and more statesmanlike than their neighbours in Victoria. But how did they proceed in Victoria ? Did they bring the thing on as a surprise, as was done in this colony in 1870 ? Certainly not. The country was advertised of the proposed measures. The whole thing was canvassed by the public and the press of Victoria in the fullest manner. Tho bearings of railways upon public interests, their cost, their mode of construction, tho revenue to be expected from them — these and all similar questions were carefully considered and reported on by committees of the Legislature. And then as the result of all this preliminary investigation, it was decided that certain lines of railways should be made. That resolution having been come to, and the objects strictly defined, the Victorian Legislature proceeded to raise the money. That surely was a more sensible course to take than the one which our Government had rushed into of borrowing large sums, and then asking Parliament to say what was to bo done with the money. Could any sane man expect anything but a scramble under those circumstances ? [Cheers.] There was one thing that pleased him very much about the Colonial Treasurer's schemes, and that was that he had come out in the character of a prophet. [Laughter]. Prophecy was a dangerous thing, and a careful man would be very Bhy about committing himself; but the Colonial Treasurer was a bold man, and neither afraid of prophecy or anything else. [Cheers]. It was extremely satisfactory' to a man of a logical mind to have to deal with prophets. [Laughter.] You could always bring them to book by results and thus ascertain their value. If some one, for instance, were to pretend that he could foretell the weather, and were to predict a wet week, and if that wet did not come, the conclusion would be inevitable that the prophet was out in his prophecy ; either his itstruments wore out of order, or his calculation erroneous, or iv all probability ho himself an imposter. [Laughter.] When Dr. Cumming prophesied that the world would come to an end on a certain year, and the world nevertheless went on, Dr. Cumming suffered in reputation. Now we were fortunately able to test Mr. Vogel's value as a prophet. If gentlemen present would take the trouble to look at

the Financial Statement of 1870, of which therewere a great many copies knocking aboub in the place, they would find in it a wholebroadside of prophecies, and as the time within which some of these were to be fulfilled had passed by, and with regard to others was drawing close at hand, he thought it could not fail to be instructive to inquire how far Mr. Vogel had been successful in his vaticinations. [Cheers.] On the subject of the annual income of the railways, he found that Mr. Vogel estimated that he would receive for the first year £5,000 from railway estate, and £40,000 from stamp duties. How stood that prophecy ? Of the £5,000 anticipated, he did not believe that Mr. Vogel received one penny. As to the half of the stamp duties, they knew to their cost that they were levied, and of course that amount was taken. But Mr. Vogel reckoned to get £40,000' from that source, and all he has got is the half of £55,000. Then as to another prophecy. Mr. Vogel foretold that in the third year of his scheme, his railways would pay £10,000 over and above their working expenses. How did that prophecy stand for its fulfilment ? They were now in the second half of the second year, and if the railways were to earn anything in the third year, they must commence working very shortly. And how many of them did they think would be at work within six months, or within the next year? He did not believe a single one would be at work, unless they reckoned as such the line between Lyttelton and the Selwyn, which has been at work now for some years. The fact was, that the grand railway idea of 1870 was projected by a man who knew very little about either the construction, or the political economy of railways ; and the consequence was, that he was now brought up by all sorts of difficulties, which a proper preliminary inquiry into the subject would have avoided. [Hear, hear ] It was r ; extremely doleful, as to be almost amusing '•> hear the lamentations of the newly-appointed Minister for Public Works, Mr. Reeves. [Laughter.] There was a difficulty, it seemed, in getting the rails brought out from England. Each mile of railway required, according to Mr. Eeeves, 100' tons of dead weight of iron ; and a ship of 1,000 tons did not care to carry more than 150 tons of such dead weight. If one ship a month arrived at Lyttelton, that would give them no more than 1,800 tons, or rails enough for eighteen miles of railway. But the vote of the Parliament of last session was for 150 miles of railway in the Privince of Canterbury, to be made of course as quickly as possible. [Hear, hear.] Between the difficulty of getting rails, and the impatience of the public to ride in railway carriages, poor Mr. Reeves was placed in a position extremely painful to a man of his susceptibilities. [Cheers.] He was curious to see how the difficulty would be overcome. But he had no doubt the Colonial Treasurer would be prepared with a suggestion. He was a gentleman of much fertility of invention, of much intellectual activity — and not easily frightened by difficulties. These were not bad qualities in a colony, when tempered by caution, which that honourable gentleman was entirely deficient in. He expected to see some special tonnage taken up to bring out the rails for the railways, and to hear of a fresh loan for borrowing the necessary money. (Laughter.] And now that he had mentioned the word borrowing, he would like to say a few words on the subject. But before he expressed his own views, he wished to say that he "was sorry that his friend MrCurtis had, unintentionally he had no doubt, omitted from his speech the subject of finance. To him (Sir D. Monro) it appeared the question of the day. [Cheers.] He had heard some very judicious remarks made upon the platform on the subject of taxation and salaries. There was no doubt that the cost of their Governmental machinery was very great. [Hear, hear.] They were over-governed, and provided with officials to a perfectly ridiculous extent. But the increasing liabilities of New Zealand — its rapidlyincreasing debt and increasing taxation — were not to be ascribed so much to the salaries of officials as to the enormous amount of the permanent charges, consisting chiefly of interest upon money that had been borrowed. He believed that at the present moment their indebtedness could not be much less than about nine millions — a sum, in proportion to their numbers, greater than any national debt in the world ! He had no faith whatever in the schemes for developing the country, and reducing taxation by extending the basis on which it was to bear. All experience wa3 against the success of schemes of that sort. They had already tried it themselves, and had most signally failed. But it seemed as if they were incapable of taking a lesson. [Hear, hear.] No true colonist — no colonist of ordinary common sense — could object ro public works within prudent and reasonable bounds. Without Immigration and Public Works there was no progress. But there was the widest possible difference between a prudent expenditure upon these objects, and a reckless acceptance of enormous burdens, which he held to be out of all relation to the resources of the community. [Hear, hear.] For his part, he deeply regretted the present position of the colony. It seemed to him to be entirely demoralized ; and considering the action of the Government, he could not express any surprise at it. There was a recklessness abroad which was entirely incompatible with any considerations of prudence or economy, and wheih he witnessed with the greatest possible apprehension. He felt himself compelled to take a very gloomy view of the future. Without their consent having been asked, they were dragged into a gigantic scheme of a speculative character, and their properties, whether they liked it or not, were staked upon the issue. If it did not pay (and where was the man that believed it would ?) let them ask themselves what taxes they would have to contribute, and what would be the value of those properties which they had made out of the wilderness at the cost of thirty years of hard work and privation ? Who was going to buy land in a country which produced taxes faster than any thing else ? Sir D. Monro concluded by moving, aa an amend-

merit, the omission of the words signifying approval of the Q-overnraent railway policy, and resumed bis seat amid loud cheers. Mr. Webb having agreed to this amendment, the resolution was carried unanimously. Mr. Luckie rose to give an explanation of the part he had taken in sending the tellegram read by Mr. Curtis. He said there were one or two points in Sir David Monro's speach that he wished to notice. With reference to the expendieure of the colony, the salaries, as Sir David Monro had said, formed but a comparatively email item, while the permameut charges in the Bhape .of interest formed our most grievous burden* But to whom was this enormous charge owing ? [Sir David Monro :To Mr. Fox.] To the Maori war and the Government who allowed it to bo commenced. Had the much ridiculed sugar and flour policy been adopted in the first instance this huge drain upon our resources would never have existed. Tile members of the present Government deserved the greatest credit for having terminated as he believed they had done, the Maori war. They had fairly conquered peace by a system that both humanity and wisdom dictated as the proper one, and which formed the brightest feather in their poliicy. The natives in the province of Wellington were dying off like rotten sheep, and every day was showing the wisdom of the course pursued by the Government. Had the present policy been been adopted years ago, there would have been no such vast charges for interest to meet as was now the case. Mr. Atkinson wished, as a North Island settler, to state that if Mr. Luckie's ideas about the Maori war were not replied to now, it was not because they were unanswerable. To reply to them satisfactorily would occupy half the night, but, already his arguments had been rebutted a hundred-and-fii'ty times, and Mr. Luckie merely showed that he was obstinately determined not to be convinced. Mr. Rout proposed, and Mr. Thornton seconded — 2. " That this meeting being strongly impressed with the importance and value to this province of the Fox-hill railway, as an instalment of the line to connect us with the Southern Provinces of this Island, express an earnest hope that the Colonial Government will proceed with this promised line without further delay." Carried unanimously. Mr. R. Burn moved, 3. " That his Honour the Superintendent be respectfully requested to forward the resolutions just agreed to with respect to the Fox-hiil railway, to the Hon. the Colonial Secretary in Wellington." This was duly seconded, and carried. A vote of thanks to Mr. Curtis was then unanimously carried, as also one to the Chairman, when the meeting broke up.