Provincial Council.

Nelson Examiner and New Zealand Chronicle, Volume XVI, Issue XVI, 16 May 1857, Page 2

Provincial Council.

Tuesday, May 12. The Council met at five o'clock ; the Speaker in the chair. All the members present except Messrs. Saxfon, Bush, Fearon, Cautlev, and Baird. PETITIONS. Mr. Wastney presented a petition from j certain inhabitants of the district of Suburban North, expressing themselves in favour of the principle of the present Education Act, andj praying that only such modifications should be made in the details of the x\et as would con- | duceto its more efficient working. The petition (which was signed by about forty persons) was read by the cLi'li, and j ordered to lie on the table. Mr. Parker presented a similar petition, signed by sixty inhabitants of the Motueka district. Petition read and ordered to lie on the table. Mr. Barnicoat presented a similar petition from the inhabitants of the Moutere district ; signed by eighteen persons. Petition read and ordered to lie on the table. 1 Mr. Jacka presented a similar petition from twenty-two inhabitants of the Riwaka district. Petition read and ordered to lie on the table. FERRY OVER THE WAIRAU RITER. Dr. Monro, pursuant to notice, moved that "this Council agree to a respectful address to his Honour the Superintendent, requesting him to place on the Estimates a sufficient sum to establish a ferry over the Wairau liver." The honourable member added that he had not mentioned any sum, as he had no data whereon to found an opinion as to the probable cost of the proposed ferry. Mr. Wells seconded the motion, and censured the Government for not taking more active steps for the establishment of a ferry across so dangerous a river. Mr. Saunders thought it better that some specific sum should be voted, and moved, as an amendment, to insert " £-200 " instead of " a sufficient sum." The honourable member also expressed an opinion in favour of making the proposed ferry almost self-supporting. Mr. Barnicoat seconded the amendment. The Provincial Solicitor thought it better that the Council should fix a specific sum, as, according to the amount voted, the Government would be prepared to judge of the style of simplicity or magnitude on which it was desired that the work should be performed. Mr. Elliott opposed the amendment, and considered that the Council was not competent to pass an opinion as to the amount of expenditure which such a work would require. Mr. Joseph Ward also opposed the amendment, and considered that it was the duty of Government to procure the necessary information from competent persons as to the cost of the work. Dr. Monro, in reply, agreed with Mr. Saunders that the ferry might be made, to a certain extent, self-supporting ; but it would be necessary to vote a sufficient sum for its establishment in the first instance. Mr. Saunders was still in favour of voting a specific sum, observing that, although almost every one knew that the proposed ferry could be established for 5650, every one was equally assured that if it was wanted to spend <£5,000 upon the work it could easily be done. The amendment was put. The Council divided. Ayes, 6. Noes, 11. Mr. Barnicoat Mr. Elliott Mi 1 . Saunders Mr. Wastney Mr. Baigent P/Tr. Wella Mr. Keliing Dr. Monro Mr. Butler Dr. Renwiok Mr. Jacha, Mr. John Ward Mr. Hough Mr. Joseph Ward Mr. Parker The Provincial Solicitor Mr. Mullei*.

j The amendment was lost. The original motion was then put and agreed to. MESSAGES. The following messages from liis Honour the Superintendent were received and read : Message No. 12, transmitting copies of correspondence between the Central Board knd the Nelson School Society, respecting the occupation by the former body of the schools belonging to the Nelson School Society. Message No. 13, transmitting the Estimates of Income and Expenditure for the past year. Message No. 14, transmitting a report by the Commission of Public Works upon the state of the public roads in the province. REPORT ON THE COUNTRY ROADS ACT. Mr. Bauinicoat moved, "that the report of the Country Roads Act Committee be adopted," and said that this report, though short, had been the subject of long and repeated discussion on the part of the committee, who, such was the contrariety of opinions even on this apparently simple subject, had found great difficulty in uniting in any report whatever. The committee had, however, thus far agreed, that it is most essential to our prosperity to preserve in repair at least the trunk roads of the settlement ; that the provincial revenue, from which it was proposed these roads should be maintained, proves at present unequal to the charge ; that, consequently, until some change in this respect takes place, funds for this purpose should be raised by some other means ; that the burden of the whole community should be distributed among the parts of which it is made up; that, in short, the District Boards should take charge of the truuk roads in their respective districts, having at their command the rates raised within such district, and the allotted share of the provincial grant, the judicious division of which would prevent any district being unduly burdened with too large a share in the maintenance of the roads ; that the rates for the trunk roads should be compulsory and uniformly levied at so much in the pound throughout the districts proclaimed under the Country Roads Act — compulsory, because, if any district refused to be rated, as under the present provisions of the act it might, the whole chain of communication might thereby be broken ; and uniform, because in the trunk roads of the province all are uniformly interested. On the subject of the by-roads, he (Mr. Barnicoat) said he could not entirely agree with the report. That the repair or formation of by-roads should be optional with the different localities, he quite agreed ; but he thought that this principle should, if possible, be extended greatly beyond what was contemplated in the report. He would wish to see each by-road stand by itself, and be repaired or otherwise at the sole option of the owners or occupiers of the contiguous land, since they alone were benefited by its good condition or inconvenienced by its neglect. He would wish to see the old subscription system, as it were, legalized and enforced at the wish of the majority of those interested in the condition of any particular road. Each occupier, in point of fact, found himself interested in the first place in the trunk roads of the province, and secondly, in that particular road, and no other, communicating with the trunk road. If ratepayers were rated solely for their own by-road, and not rated in common for all the by-roads of an extensive district, such a rate, self-imposed, would be paid cheerfully ; but the Country Roads Act failed, by uniting persons for one common purpose who were not united by any common interest. Such a plan, if it were possible to give it legislative form (for there is evidently a difficulty here), would operate beneficially and fairly. Every ratepayer would see his own rate economically spent for his own benefit, under his own immediate inspection, and great encouragement would be thus afforded to the formation of good roads ; and those who, having formerly united, perhaps at great cost, for the purpose of making a road to their own neighbourhood, would not, after having made their own road, find themselves called on to assist in making roads for others. The committee would not have suggested any important alteration in the management of the roads at the eve of a dissolution of the Council, but for one consideration, that unless legislative provision is now made for the repair of the trunk roads, they must remain without any efficient repair for two winters more, unless the new Council met at a very much earlier period than this Council has hitherto done. The committee has been induced to propose the alteration in the mode of assessment, on account of the cost with which the usual kind of assessment is supposed to be attended, by some honourable members supposed to be so great as to have frightened them into the absurdity of proposing a uniform acre tax, with a sole view of avoiding this dreaded expense. Mr. Wastney seconded the motion. Mr. John Ward opposed the adoption of the report, on the ground that it created local taxation for general purposes, and because it did not propose to leave the introduction of the act optional with the inhabitants of any district. Dr. Monro observed that while he should vote for the adoption of the present report, he should reserve to himself the right of opposing or approving of any bill which might be founded upon it. Messrs. Wells and Kelling supported the motion. After some remarks from Mr. Barnicoat in reply, The motion was put and agreed to. REPORT ON THE EDUCATION ACT. Mr. Wastney moved, " That the report of the select committee on the Education Act be adopted." The honourable member remarked at some length upon the various resolutions, which he said the committee had unanimously agreed to ; and he expressed a belief that if the principles embodied in the report were added to the present Education Act, it would prove very beneficial to the community. Mr. Wells seconded the motion. Mr. Joseph Ward said : I rise, sir, to oppose the adoption of this report, and I do so because I consider that it conveys a most erroneous impression as to the past working of this measure, and because the improvements and amendments proposed are not such as the public desire, or the exigency of the case requires. We are told, sir, "that considering

the various difficulties the commencement of the measure has had to contend against, your committee consider that the results are highlysatisfactory." I will just remark, in passing, that I feel surprise at finding myself agree with this portion of the report ; that lam compelled to admit that the results attending the attempt to introduce this measure are highly satisfactory. To many, shy the highly satisfactory results have— appeared little short of absolute failure* -, Ftfr full and detailed information we be referred to the two reports of thfc inspector. Now, sir, having been informed that in 'one instance the Inspector's report is quite erroneous (I allude to his report of the number of children attending the school at Richmond), and not having the means of testing it further, I am at a loss to determine its real value, and certainly think that until this matter is fully cleared up the Inspector's report ought to go for very little. But, sir, this does not affect the unjust principle upon which this measure is founded, and upon the ground of that injustice has my opposition to this measure been consistently based. This colony,, sir, was founded on the express understanding that all religious bodies were to stand on a perfect equality. The lands were offered for sale and sold with a condition that a proportion of the purchase-money should be devoted to religious purposes, and divided amongst the various religious bodies applying for the same in proportion to their numbers. This will not be denied. How frequently has the same principle of equality been admitted by gentlemen who are now sitting in this Council. But I am told, sir, that this is purely a question of education, and that it has nothing to do with religion at all. This may be true, so far as it relates to what you call religion. lam prepared to believe your words. But surely, sir, I have also the right to form notions of religion too — the same right as yourselves — and according to my notions it has very much to do with religion, for "to train up a child in the way he should go " is one of the principal duties which religion teaches ; and I say that if you act honestly, consistently with your own principles, the moment it is shown that your plan is conscientiously opposed, unless you are prepared to set up might in the place of right* you must desist. We are told that there is noinjustice, that we are treated the same as other bodies, Chat the majority must make the law, and that we ought to submit to the will of the majority. Will it be maintained, then, that in all cases the majority possesses of right the power to make the laws, and, if so, of course toenforce its- decisions 1 I think not. The fact of declaring all religious bodies to be on a footing of equality at once places some questionsbeyond the jurisdiction of the majority. But there is a higher ground than this. We are taught by an authority that cannot be disputed, that in some cases it is a duty to resist ; that in fact "we ought to obey God rather than man." "There is no injustice in this measure t" I maintain that there is ; and I think I have said enough to support my position.. But further : it gives the control of education to whom it never can of right belong, and is a scheme ia strict accordance with the Protestant principle, and directly opposed to the Catholics. Do as you choose with your own ; I claim no interference ; but do not interfere with mine. Do not attempt to make me work the land that you may reap the harvest. We are divided into two bodies, the Protestant and the Catholic. And let me guard myself against being misunderstood. lam not going to say that one is right, the other wrong. No! thafc is another question, and this is not the place for it. It has been declared that each body has a right to its peculiar principles. Now, how will this measure work ? Religion thrown into the background, almost out of sight ; nothing controversial ,- no history to be taught. You teach a youth to read, and then give him a Bible. He is at once possessed of all themeans for making a Protestant : bishop, priest, and congregation all condensed into one individual. When the Christian religion wasestablished, our Divine Redeemer chose a body of men, whom he commanded to "go and teach all nations." This body of men, in their duly-appointed successors, still exists, and to this body belongs the duty of guidiag education. So believes the Catholic. And yet you tell me that your scheme interferes with no religious principles I lam well .asrare that this view will by some of you he considered a recommendation of your plan ; and I should have little hope were I to consider your decision final in this matter. But I do not ; and whatever your decision may be I shall not be without hope. I shall appeal to my fellowcolonists, feeling sure that, with few exceptions, they are willing " to do to others as they would have others do to them ;" and that ultimately, when our position is fairly understood, justice will be rendered. There are many matters of detail belonging to this measure which appear to me so opposite to the principles of government propounded from time to time in this Council, that, were I to agree in the main principle, it would in my mind render it almost useless. I shall instance only one. Few hours have elapsed since we were eloquently shown how completely this province is dividei by huge physical barriers into several distinct portions (and no one can dispute this), rendering local management almost a necessity. Now look at this measure. The principal power of control and management is given to a Central Board sitting in Nelson. This onesidedness seems peculiar to those who boast so loudly of their unbounded toleration. To say one thing and do another. Look at England ! One moment teaching the kings of the earth the principles of freedom, the next enacting or refusing to repeal a penal statute. Look at Ireland, with its State establishments swallowing up yearly its half million of money ; forty thousand pounds a-year to another sect ; and listen to the howl against the paltry grant to the college of Maynooth. Mr. Barnicoat said he would now call attention to a petition, which he could not present before, along with the other petition in favour of the Education Act, on account of its^ not being addressed to the whole CoupJciJ, Tsut merely to the Waimea-east members: of it. This petition first requested these numbers to vote for the repeal of the present Education Act, but urged upon them to assist^ in the framing another act giving greater pbwers to localities. This memorial came therefore from those friendly to a general system of education,

similar, it would appear, to that already in force, but friendly also to extended powers of local management ; or, according to the verbal explanation of some of the leading memorialists, this memorial originates in the wish to see «ach school, separately, the centre of its own district, and under the management of its own separate committee, instead of being inconveniently united in one management with the several other schools of an educational district. This memorial had 1 12 signatures, 1 10 at least of which are also appended to the petition lying on the table for the unconditional repeal of the Education Act : so that 110 of the names might be fairly struck off this petition and added to those in favour of the Education Act, for the change contended for on the Waimeaeast petition is one of detail, and not of principle. He (Mr. Barnicoat) perfectly agreed ■with the spirit of the first paragraph of the report as to the satisfactory operation of the Education Act. This act had been daily working itself into increased favour, and had met with no more opposition than was to be expected against any other measure of general importance. The public earnestly desired education. A general system had been devised •with the utmost care and consideration, and with the most scrupulous desire to avoid the slightest violation of the rights of conscience. The question now amounted to this : whether the great majority should set aside a system from which they conceived such great benefits were being felt, and still greater likely to ensue, on account of the outcry of a small and noisy minority ? and that, too, on grounds so perfectly unintelligible and untenable as the infringement of religious liberty. If indeed it could be shown that the principles of religious equality were violated by the Education Act, then the people of this province would execrate that act as much as they are now attached to it. But such a charge seems to the majority supporting that act entirely unfounded. The denominational system, which some would substitute for that now in operation, is, on the confession even of its advocates, inapplicable to this province, with the exception of one small portion — the Town of Nelson. "I would propose," says Mr. Weld, in his letter appended to the report of the Education Commission, " to meet the case of country districts, that any denominational school receiving Government aid should impart secular instruction only to any children whose parents might object to their receiving religious instruction ;" a plan very nearly identical with that of the Education Act. As to the proposition contained in the sth paragraph of the report, which has been so strongly excepted against, it is little raace tlian an. ecUo of tiie wishes of the Nelson School Society, from whose published report (published before the passing of the Education Act) it appears that that society "rejoices to learn that a liberal and comprehensive scheme of public education will be proposed for adoption at the next meeting of the Provincial Council," and pledges itself " to do all in its power to forward the passing of the proposed measure, * * and to enter into any proper arrangement for transferring the care and management of their schools to the Central Board of Education/ From the same report it appears that the number of children in the day schools of that society were, at the close of its operations, 316 ; while, from the last report of the Inspector of Schools, the number at present attending the provincial schools are 817: the number attending the evening schools being excluded from calculation in either case. Dr. Renwick had complained of the Central Board of Education, in not accepting an offer of the Nelson School Society ; the pecuniary demand of that society being merely made with a view to liquidating the debt due to its treasurer. Of the extent of that debt the Central Board could obtain no exact information, but as far as can be learnt it must have amounted to about The demand made by the Nelson School Society, with a view of liquidating this debt, amounted to upwards of 56700, as appears from the correspondence now lying on the table; the payment to extend over a period of three years, ,£4OO being paid down, and the remainder in about equal portions. Mr. Ward appears to advocate the division of the proceeds of the education rate into two portions, to be allotted to the Catholic and Protestant sections of the community in proportion to their respective numbers. This division, however, would not meet the religious divisions existing among us, there being very many religious sects among us, all of whom would consider it a violation of the great principle of religious equality to accord to the Roman Catholic sect any privilege not equally accorded to the rest ; and any subdivision of the education fund would of course be destructive of anything like a general system of education. In justice to the authors of the report of the Education Commission, and in illustration of the sagacity and forethought there exhibited, it should" not be forgotten that the suggestions of the report now under consideration are little more than a return to that report, and that the first practical working of the Education Act had shown the advisability of a closer adherence to its recommendations. Dr. Renwick, in explanation, stated that Mr. Barnicoat had altogether misunderstood the correspondence. The £700 included the amount charged for the furniture, books, &c, and three years' rent ; about .£3OO of this amount was for the purpose of meeting the liabilities of the Society, the remainder to be laid out by the Central Board in repairing and improving the properties, so that they should not be deteriorated in value in the event of the Government scheme breaking down, and the Society being obliged to resume operations again. Dr. Monro supported the adoption of the report, although he would have preferred that it had gone further into the question, and especially into the consideration of the recommendation of the Central Board, that their share of the rate should be given back under certain restrictions to dissatisfied minorities, whowere in sufficiently large numbers to support school of their own. The honourable member, in ft' speech of considerable length, criticized Mr. Wards remarks, and discussed the principle of the present Education Act. Dr. Renwick opposed the adoption of the report, and stated that he did so on several grounds. In the first place, he altogether disagreed with the report of the sub-committee of the Central Board of Education, as being un-

necessary, uncalled for, and recommending to this Council a deliberate act of spoliation, which he hardly thought the most despotic power in Europe would venture upon in the present age. Any person reading the report of the sub-committee would suppose that the Nelson School Society had committed some flagrant breach of trust, or done some other act which called for the interference of this Council to deprive them of the properties invested in them, whether they were willing or not. As a member of the Nelson School Society, he (Dr. Ren wick) had yet to learn that any breach of trust had been committed. The conditions of the grant were, to permit the said premises, and all buildings thereon erected, or to be erected, to be for ever hereafter appropriated and used as and for a school for children of all denominations, without the imposition of any sectarian creed, and with power to the trustees for the time being to appoint new trustees, pursuant to the provisions of the Conveyancing Ordinance, Session 11., No. 10. lie believed he was correct in stating that all the school-houses belonging to that society were in the occupation of the Central Board of Education, with the exception of the Nelson School-house, which is at present in occupation as a private day and night school. But there is another class of schools which are still under the management of the society, and in active operation, and to which the society has always attached great importance, viz., the Sunday Schools, and which schools are recognized in the grant. He considered that the Nelson School Society would have committed a breach of trust if they had resigned all their interest in the Nelsou schools without making provision for the continuance of the Sunday Schools. The Nelson School Society had been also accused by the Board of Education of having thrown difficulties in their way. He could safely say, for himself, and he believed for the other members of the committee, that in the various communications that had taken place they were desirous of meeting the views of the Central Board, and made as liberal an offer as they considered themselves justified in doing under the circumstances. The committee considered that before resigning their interest in the schools, they were bound to see the debt due to their treasurer (Mr. Campbell) liquidated, a debt which had been accruing since the foundation of the schools, in 1842; they were also bound to see that the fundamental rules of the society were complied with ; and further, that the property was kept in repair in the event of the Government scheme breaking down, and their being obliged to resume possession of them again. Having these objects ia view, he thought that the society was justified in requiring that the rents should be laid out in repairing and improving the property, after discharging their liabilities. He was not so certain of the success of the Education Act as the supporters of this report would { have us to believe ; and in support of this j view, he would call the attention of" the Council I to a remarkable discrepancy in the statement of the Inspector, as to the pupils formerly attending the schools compared with the present attendance, and the statement con- ! tamed in the last report of the Nelson School j Society, which, instead of giving a balance of i more than 50 per cent, in favour of the Go- j vernment scheme, as stated in the report of the Central Board, reduced it to a very small | number, according to the statement of the Nel- ! son School Society, even leaving out those at- , tending the night schools ; he could not account j for this discrepancy ; but there were the two statements, and any honourable member might judge for himself. He held too high an opinion of the Inspector to suppose for one moment that he would knowingly make a false return, and would claim the same credit for the Nelson School Society. He would also refer to the petition against the Education Act now lying on this table, and signed by, he believed, upwards of five hundred electors — a. majority of the electors of the Province that had at any one" time voted for the Superintendent. He doubted of the success of the scheme in the face of so large an opposition — an opposition which could not be passed over in silence. He also objected to the Report of the Select Committee as making the rate a charge upon the revenue, considering the limited amount of our resources and the burdens already imposed upon our revenue. He was of opinion that this Council had committed an error in passing the Education Act of last session, as it was admitted that any purely Government scheme of education was the most expensive, and therefore not suited to our circumstances. He thought that a scheme similar to that proposed in Auckland, which combined the voluntary system with Government aid and supervision, more suited to our circumstances, far less expensive, and more efficient, inasmuch as he believed it would meet the hearty co-operation of all classes. Mr. Saunders supported the adoption of the report, and contended that the present act was a most remarkable instance of giving in on the part of a majority to the feelings of a \ery small minority. The honourable member alluded to the success which, of his own knowledge had attended theworking of the Education Act at Richmond and Waimea South ; and expressed a belief that the petition lately presented to the Superintendent against the Act, and signed by five hundred persons, had been signed in a great many instances under wrong impressions. The Provincial Solicitor felt sorry that he could not support the adoption of the report, especially as he had been a member of the committee, although unable to attend its meetings. He objected to the proposal of guaranteeing annually from the revenue of the province, and to the recommendation that the rate should be collected by the Go vernment. Mr. Elliott would support the adoption of the report, although by doing so he did not bind himself to support all its details. Whether the large sum of £5,000, for instance, was necessary to provide school-houses, he was in no position to judge; but if it could be shown him that such a sum was necessary to render the working of the Education Act efficient, he would support a loan for that amount, so highly important did he esteem the measure. Although there had been a little carping at the success which had attended the working of the Education Act, there was sufficient evidence, he thought, to prove that the Act had been em.nuitly successful, particularly when thry

considered the novelty of the measure itself, the principle of direct taxation which it had introduced, and the opposition which was raised against it on its introduction. After so short and yet so successful a trial, he thought it would be a pity to attempt any alterations in the Act in the present session beyond those which the short experience which had attended its working pointed out as necessary, and for this reason he would oppose any tinkering with the measure, unless it could be shown that such was absolutely called for. There was, however, one alteration in the Act which he should not regret to see attempted : he meant that which had been referred to by the member for Waimea West, the object of which would be to give to the Roman Catholic schools in the province the amount of the rate contributed by the members of that body and a proportion of any vote in aid passed by that Council. It appeared that the Roman Catholic body felt the Act as it stood to be a cruel grievance — a violation of those principles of religious freedom which he was desirous of seeing not only maintained in this colony, but diffused throughout the world. It was true that, on the passing of the Act, he had thought the Roman Catholics might without difficulty have availed themselves of the schools established under the Act for the use of their children, without infringing in any way their religious scruples, or that even they might under its provisions have set up schools of thenown. This, however, had proved not to be the case ; and so anxious was he *to leave the reliligious scruples of every man free and untouched, that he would consent so far to abandon the uniformity of the scheme of education which the xVct set up, to liberate the Roman Catholics from the thraldom which they considered the Act as it stood inflicted j upon them. Mr. Joseph Ward proposed, as an amendment, "That the further consideration of the | report be postponed till that day week." j Mr. Butler seconded the amendment, and | said that he did so in order to give more time for some arguments to be brought against the | present act. I Mr. John Ward expressed his intention i of voting against the adoption of the report ; he objected especially to that part of it which j proposed to guarantee £3,000 for seven years ' from the revenue of the province. | ! Mr. Parker supported the adoption of the j report, and gave his testimony as to the satisfactory manner in which the Education Act is \ working in the Motueka district. ! Mr. Kelling supported the adoption of! the report, although he did not agree with ' some of its details, which he would like to see • altered when the pyopDSDil amentlwi i>ill was m committee. Mr. Muller expressed his intention of voting for the adoption of the report, without pledging himself to all the details ; and believed that, with a few alterations, the act could be made to work well. After some further remarks from Messrs. Baruicoat, Renwick, Joseph Ward, and Wastney, The amendment was withdrawn. The question "That the report be adopted," was then put. The Council divided :— Ayes, 13. Noes, 1. Mr. Wastney Dr. TCenwick air. Wells " Mr. John Ward Mr. Burnicoat My. Joseph Ward Mr. Saunders The Provincial Solicitor. Mr. Bnigent Mr. lulling Mr. Butler Mr. Hough Mr. Jacka Dr. Monro Mr. Parker Mr. Elliott My. Muller The report was accordingly adopted. PRINTING- VOTES A^ T D PROCEEDINGS. Mr. Muller moved for the appointment of of a select committee to revise and superintend the Printing of the Votes and Proceedings of the Council ; such committee to consist of the Speaker, the Provincial Solicitor, Mr. Elliott, Dr. Renwick, and the mover. Mr. John Ward seconded the motion. : Agreed to. The Council adjourned at a few minutes past nine o'clock, until the following day. Wednesday, May 13. The Council met at five o'clock ; the Speaker in the chair. All the members present except Messrs. Hough, Fearon, Baird, and Cautley. PETITIONS. Dr. Monro presented a petition from certain inhabitants of Waimea-wesr, calling the attention of the Council to the state of the roads in that district, suggesting that a land tax should bo passed for the maintenance of the roads of the province, and praying that some steps might be taken to improve the roads in their own district. The petition was read by the Clerk, and ordered to lie on the table. Mr. Elliott presented the following petition from Thomas Pringle Caldwell : — To the Honourable the Members of tho Provincial Council of Kelson, tlie respectful memorial of Thomas Pringle Ouldwell, humbly showeth — • That on th? 20th day of June, 1855, your petitioner purchased of Mr. Thomas Blackburrow eighty acres of Section No. 101, Takaka, Massacre Bay, for which a Crown Grant was duly registered and delivered, datod 21st September, 1855, the fees being paid. That there was on the property a valuable garden and orchard, laid out by the Messrs. Blackburrow with great skill and taste, together with some acres fenced and laid down in w heat and potatoes, forming a vory desirable property. That having purchased a wooden house ready for erection, besides much valuable property in agricultural implements, bullocks, horses, and other necessary appliances for carrying on farming operations, he was forcibly denied access to possession of the land by a band of Maories, headed by a native named Periku, who had a prior claim to the property. That serious threats of violence and bloodshed were issued against any white man taking possession. And after many ineffectual struggles your petitioner was compelled to relinquish the attempt to occupy his land. That, in the meantime, his family were forced to take refuge in a wretched hovel, exposed to all the severities of tho winter, and in continual dread of a collision with the Maories, which was constantly threatened. That their crops and gardens were destroyed ; their furniture, including valuable books, linen, and wearing apparel, together with china, plate, and expensive dining and kitchen utcn»i!s, were rendered completely übclebc by being exposed on the beach.

That, being necessitated to leave his wife and family alone in this situation, while endeavouring to acquire peaceable possession of the land at the hands of the Government, his property and elfects being on the spot, the health of his wife gave way under the pressure of anxieties. That she was the subject of very dangerous illness while there alone with her little children, and that he was compelled to bring her to Nelson for medical ad\ ice, leaving their children unprotected. That his w ife, refusing to return to the section till a settlement should take place, he was compelled to remove his family and effects to Motupipi, and to be at the expense of purchasing another house there. That some time thereafter, on the arrival of Mr. M'Lean, the land was purchased by the Government at the price of £110 sterling ; and though possession was thus tacitly accorded, no compensation has ever been made for the heavy losses and damages inflicted : while your petitioner is well assured that his present application would be sustained by their Honors the late as well as the present Superintendent, who are both well aware of the truth of tho statements above mentioned, and deeply sympathize in them. That while your petitioner docs not specify any 1 claim for compensation, he hopes that from the great loss sustained, and the very distressing circumstances to w liich his family was reduced in consequence thereof, that the honourable members of the Provincial Council may accord to him such restitution as may seem just and equitable to them. And your petitioner will ever pray, &c. The petition luuing been read by the Clerk, it was ordered to lie on the table. Dr. Monro presented a petition from certain inhabitants of the district of Waimea-wcst, praying assistance from the Council in establishiug a library in that district. Petition read and ordered to lie on the table. REDUCTION OP EXPENSES OF THE COUNCIL. Mr. Saunders brought up the following report, which was read by the Clerk : — I REPORT OP SELECT COMMITTEE TPON KEDUCIXG TIIE EXPENSES 01? THE PROVINCIAL COUNCIL. ; " The Select Committee of the Provincial Council, ! i appointed April 1 lth, 1857, to decide upon the most ' I expedient and effectual means to reduce the expenses i j of the Provincial Council, report — ! "That a considerable reduction in the expense of j this Council would be effected if the Provincial j Solicitor would invariable cause all proposed bills to j j be laid on tho table at the earliest possible date, and ' keep a sufficient amount of business constantly before j tho Council, to prevent tho frequent recurrence of very early adjournments, necessitated by the entire , j absence of business in a sufficient state of forwardness | I to occupy the attention of the Council. I " That much of the expense now incurred by print- ; j ing bills for the Council might be avoided if the > Government Gazette containing the bills were printed ] ! with lines numbered in a form fit for the use of the I ! members, and a sufficient number of copies struck off] j to supply the table of this Council. I j "Your committee also rcvumnend that copies of the acts and proceedings printed for this Council, ; should bo sold to the public by the Government ■ yriutei' at a jjvi.ee to lie fixed by t!ie Suea&cv. "On the ground of economy, as well as best to ' secure the independence and convenience of this | Council, your committee believe it desirable that his J Honour the Superintendent should be requested to . place a sum upon the estimates for the erection of a , building suitable for the requirements of this Council, | which building might also be made available for other J public purposes for which a large and convenient j erection has long been urgently required. " Alfred Sauxders, Chairman." j DISTILLATION. j Mr. Kelling, pursuant to notice, moved > for the appointment of a "select committee to . consider the propriety of allowing Distillation < in this Province ; the committee to consist of j Messrs. Elliott, Wells, Renwick, Baigent, Parleer, and the mover." The honourable member , added that, as there was now an abundance of ( grain in the province, it might prove beneficial ; if the manufacture of spirits were allowed, as it ', would prevent the necessity of sending money ' out of the place for the purchase of that which j i could be as well manufactured here. i Dr. Monro seconded the motion. ! ! The Council divided :—: — j Ayes, 1(>. Noes, 3. ] Mr. Elliott Mr. .Saunders j Mr. Wastney Mr. Poynter | Mr. "Wells The Provincial Solicitor. ' Dr. Monro j Dr. Renwiek | Mr. John "Ward j Mr. Barnicoat J Mr. Bnigent Mr. Kelling Mr. Butler Mr. Bush Mr. Saxton Mr. Jacka Mr. Joseph "Ward Mr. Parker Mr. Muller. The motion was agreed to. TIIE ESTIMATES. The Provincial Solicitor moved "That the Council resolve itself into committee to ■ take into consideration the Estimates." Mr. Poynter .seconded the motion. A discussion ensued as to the propriety of ' discussing the Estimates without waiting for the Appropriation Bill, or of reserving such discussion until the Appropriation Bill had been sent down and read a second time. Messrs. Elliott, "Wells, Itenwick, and Monro supported the latter, and Messrs. Saunders, Poynter, and the Provincial Solicitor the former view of the question. The question was put. The Council divided : — Ayes, 13. Noes, 6. Mr. Wastney Mr. Elliott Mr. John Ward Mr. Wells Mr. Barnicoat Dr. Monro Mi-. Saunders Dr. Keuwick Mr. Baigent Mr. Bush Mr. Kelling Mr. Joseph "Ward. Mr. Butler Mr. Saxton Mr. Jacka Mr. Parker' Mr. Poynter The Provincial Solicitor Mr. Muller. Motion agreed to. The Council accordingly went into committee ; Mr. Wells in the chair. Mr. Poynter stated the amount of tho probable revenue of the year, and compared the various items with the revenue of the past year. He concluded by moving that the first item of the proposed expenditure, viz., " The Superintendent .£350," be adopted. Dr. Monro moved, as an amendment, that the sum be ".£500," instead of ".£350." The honourable member added that he considered it nothing but right that the head of the Executive of an extensive province like Nelson should have a salary commensurate with the high and important duties he had to perform. Mr. Saunders opposed the amendment, although willing to vote for the salary to be raised to £ 100.

The Provincial Solicitor supported the amendment. j The amendment was put. The committee divided :: — ■ | Ayes, 12. Noes, 7. Mr. Wastney Mr. John Ward Mr. Elliott ' Mr. Saunders Dr. Monro Mr. Baigent Dr. Bcmvick Mr. Butler. Mr. Bamieoat Mr. Bush Mr. Kelling Mr. Jacka Mr. Saxton Mr. Parker Mr. Joseph Ward Mr. Poynter The Provincial Solicitor Mr. Muller Mr. Sinclair. The amendment was agreed to. The remaining items in the department were also agreed to. The items in the Secretary's department having been read, Mr. Poynter remarked that the clerk would carry on the duties of the Secretary's office for the first six months of this year, after which the Commissioner of Crown Lands would also fulfil the duties of Provincial Secretaiy. Dr. Monro objected to the proposed amalgamation of offices, and contended that if the Waste Lands Bill passed, the Commissioner would have quite sufficient to do in attending to the duties of the Land Office, without undertaking those of Provincial Secretary. Mr. Elliott and Mr. Wastney also objected to the proposed arrangement. Dr. Renwick thought that the consideration of the Secrettiry's department had better be postponed until after the Waste Lands Bill had been disposed of, as, in the event of that bill not passing:, the proposed amalgamation of offices would be practicable, which it would not be if the bill passed, in consequence of the extra business it would entail upon the Comj missioner. i Dr. Monro proposed, as an amendment, j that the duties of Provincial Secretary and j Provincial Solicitor should be combiued, with a . salary of .£3OO. I j Mr. Saunders and the Provincial Solicitor opposed the amendment. ' On the motion of Dr. Renwick, the consideration of the Secretary's Department was ! postponed until the Waste Lands Bill had been disposed of by the Council. ; The Solicitor's department was agreed to as | in the printed Estimates. i On the items in the Treasurer's Department ! being read, ' Mr. Saunders moved, as an amendment, i that the salary of the Provincial Treasurer be ! "£'1OO" instead of " £1 50." Dr. Renwick, Dv. Monvo, and tl\c Provincial 1 Solicitor opposed the amendment, which was put and negatived. The original sum and the remaining items in the department were then agreed to. The first item of the Audit Department ' having been read, Dr. Monro moved, as an amendment, that ' the amount paid to the Board be "£6O" : instead of " £30." ' Mr. Saunders opposed the amendment. ( Question put. j ' The committee divided :—: — i ' Ayes, 5. Xoes, 11. Mr. Poynter Mr. Mullcv Mr. Joseph Ward The Provincial Solicitor Mr. Saxton Mr. Parker I ] Dr. Monro Mr. Jacka I ] Mr. Elliott. Mr. Bush i Mr. Butler I , Mr. Kelling Mr. Baigent Mr. Saunders | ' Mr. Bamicoat j : Mr. Wastney. Mr. John Ward, Dr. Renwick, and Mr. Sinclair declined to vote. The amendment was lost. Mr. Saunders moved, as an amendment, that the sum be "£ls " instead of " £30." j j Amendment put and lost. ; , The original item of £30 was then agreed to. J The consideration of the Crowii Land and j Survey Departments was postponed. i! The different items in the Harbour, and the | Sheriff and Gaol Departments, were agreed to , without alteration. 1 In the Police Department, the only item (hat J created any discussion was that of " District Constables, £\70," the consideration of which ] was ultimately postponed. The other items were agreed to without alteration. J * The different items of the first portion of 1 1 the Magistrates' Department were agreed to j after a fevf remarks from Mr. Parker, who l stated that the magistrates at Motueka had ' declined to act on several occasions in consequence of their, having no clerk, or proper ! place for bcldiug their sittings. ' Mr. Saundeus moved, as an amendment, that the items relating to the establishment of '. a resident magistrate at the Aorere be struck out ; and contended that if the sum set down was voted it would be incurring a most un- ' necessary expense for a district that might in i the course of a few months be almost deserted. The Provincial Solicitor, Dr, Renwick, and Mr. Elliott opposed the amendment, and contended that although the approach of winter * had caused the diggings to be partially deserted, ' the return of spring would see a far larger ' population then than hitherto ; and that the . Council could not more stultify itself by re- ! fusing to vote that which a few nights before ' it had pledged itself to do. ! The amendment was put and lost. The remaining items in the department were then agreed to. t Mr. Wastney moved that the Council do 1 resume and the Chairman report progress, Mr. Saunders opposed the motion. The committee divided :—: — ] Ayes, 6. Noe?, 13. ( Mr. "Wastney Dr. Monro j Mr. Elliott Dr. Itenwick j Mi-. John Ward Mr. Bamieoat Mr. Bush Mr. Saunders } Mr. Joseph Wiird Mr. Baigent ( Mr. Sinclair. Mr. KeJling Mr. Butkr . Mr. Saxtcn ( Mr. Jacka Mr. Parker ' Mr. Poynter I The Provincial Solicitor i Mr. Muller. The motion wab lost. In the Medical Department, i Mi*. Saunders moved, as an amendment, i that the salary of the Provincial Surgeon be ' " X'J .">() " instead of " «£2OQ."

; Dr. Renwick and the Provincial Solicitor opposed the amendment. Question put. — The committee divided :—: — Ayes, 8. JN T oe-», 8. Mr. Parker Mr. Muller Mr. Jacka The Provincial Solicitor Mr. Butler Mr. Poynter Mr. Baigent Mr. Saxtou Mr. Saunders Mr. Bush Mr. Barnicoat Dr. Eonnk'k Mr. John Ward Mr. Elliott Mr. Wastney. Mr. Sinclair. Mr. Kelling declined to vole. The numbers being equal, the chairman gave his casting vote against the amendment, which was accordingly lost. The original sum was then agreed to. Mr. Sounders proposed, as an amendment, to strike out the item " Medicines, .£20," on the ground that a surgeon who was paid £200 a-ycar could afford to find medicines. Dr. Ren-wick opposed the amendmeuf, which was put and lost. All the items in the Medical Department were then agreed to as in the priuted copy. The Coroner's Department was agreed to without alteration. In the Provincial Council Department, the item "Speaker, jEIOO," was postponed. The blanks in the other items were filled up as follows : — Members for Massacre Bay, Wairau, auxl Motueka, at 20s. for each day's attendance; members residing more than 10 miles from Nelson I.ls. per day; members residing more than 4 miles from Nelson, 10s. per day ; Clerk to the Council, £\ 25 ; Assistant ditto, £l per week ; Messenger, 12s. per day. The other items were agreed to as printed, excepting that the amount for the Council Library was increased from "sglOO" to "£120." In the Registrar of Deeds' Department, Dr. Renwick moved, as an amendment, That the salary of the Clerk be "a€l«0" instead of "£\7s" The honourable member I added that he would like to see some general j scheme adopted for gradually increasing the ! salaries of clerks who had been for any considerable time in the Government employ. Mr. Saunders opposed, and Mr. Poyntf.r supported the amendment. The committee divided :—: — Ayes, 12. JS"oes, 7. Dr. Monro Mr. Wastney Dr. Kemvick Mr. Elliott Mr. Barnicoat Mr. John Ward Mr. Kelling Mr. Sa\mdeis Mr. Bush Mr. Baigent Mr. Saxton Mr. Butler Mr. Jacka Mr. Sinclair. Mr. Joseph Ward Mr. Parker My. Poyftta 1 The Provincial Solicitor Mr. Muller. The amendment was agreed to. The salary of the Assistant Clerk was also increased from *£120 to .£NO. In the Inter-Provincial Postal Department, the salary for an assistant to the Nelson postmaster was fixed at .£l2O, after some discussion as to the party by whom the assistant was to be appointed, and whether he was to be under the control of the Provincial or General Government. The remaining items in the department were agreed to as printed. The items under the heads " Native Interpreter and Miscellaneous " were agreed to as printed. The Council then resumed, and the Chairman reported progress. At a few minutes past ten o'clock, the Council adjourned until the following clay.