HOUSE ON DEFENCE.

Lyttelton Times, Volume CXXIII, Issue 16034, 14 September 1912, Page 13

HOUSE ON DEFENCE.

ARE SALARIES TOO HIGH? DEMAND FOR A CITIZENS’ ARMY EFFICIENCY WITHOUT FRILLS. [From Oc;r Cop.itKsroNDF.xT.] WELLINGTON, September 13. Tho discussion on tho Defence Estimates this afternoon was opened by the member for Wellington South (M* Hindmnreh) raising a protest against what' he described as the extravagance in salaries to “the gold lace department of the service.” Ho complained that already the estimates for defence purposes exceeded Lord Kitchener s estimate by £58,000. Ho supposed next year there would be another jump of £58,000, or something like it. Mr Hindniarsh stated that he bad intended to movo a reduction of the vote by £IOO,OOO (laughter), but that as his benclimate advised him that such a motion would hamper the freedom debate he would leave a motion or reduction to someone else (re no wed laughter). MAXIMUM COST OF SCHEME. Tho Minister of Defence, the Hon James Allen, declared that he had never heard the General or anyone else say the scheme was going to cost £BOO,OOO. Ho had to give the assertion a most emphatic denial that it was going to cost anything like that. Tim reason why the estimates were £50,000 or £OO,OOO more than was formerly anticipated was because there was a large amount of equipment to obtain this year, and there would be more equipment- to obtain for tho next year or two. When the whole scheme was in working order, unless unexpected developments occurred, be believed it would not cost more than £400.000 a year. He would not say it would cost less, although the estimate was actually less. Mr G. W. Russell asked why they should make tho pay of the military officers so high as to absolutely dwarf tho nay of tho civilian officers of the dominion.

GENER AL GODLEY UNDERPAID. The salary of £IOOO paid to General Godley was criticised by Mr L. M. Isitt, who thought it compared unfavourably with the earnings of other professional men. New Zealand had no right to expect services from British experts at a salary which meant a sacrifice to them in leaving the hub of the military universe. Tire Hon James Allen replied that tho General was paid the samo salary as was paid to a colonel in charge of a brigade in Britain. Colonel Heard, with tbirtv years’ service, could got £750 a vear 'in England, as he did in New Zealand. Tne Defence Department’s experts were got as cheaply as possible, perhaps too cheaply. Now Zealanders had been sent- Home to bo trained and would replace many imriant officers in 1914. He wished the ouso to understand that the defence estimates were his own. He stood by thorn and asked not one party but the House to support them and maintain the scheme (hear. hear). EX-MINISTER OF DEFENCE. Mr A. M. Myers declared that the dominion owed General Godley a debt of gratitude for the whole-hearted way in which ho had thrown himself into the work of organising tho scheme of compulsory training. Mr Anderson said that the only opposition to the scheme bad come from the Radical city of Christchurch. Having long enjoyed the advantage of good government of The country, he urged that they should be ready to give good service in the defence of the country. FEATHERS NOT COMPULSORY. Mr Isitt suggested that the maximum of plain practical military efficiency with the minimum of show was required. It was necessary to guard closely against tho idea that military duties were the preserve of, the, rich. _ Their defence, he urged, should be a citizens’ defence league rather than a branch of the Imperial Army. The Hon F. M. B. Fisher declared that they could not help the fact that an attractive dress popularised tho servico and they could not cut down the attractiveness of tho uniform. without unpopularising the Territorials. Mr Isitt explained that ho was referring to the dross-uniforms of tho Imnorial officers. The Hon F. M. B. Fisher asked if the Imperial officers were to bo asked to discard their uniforms of tho Imperial service. The Minister of Defence, discussing tho subject of salaries at further length, said that tho military officers had not the advantage of superannuation but they were amending that. Military officers wero also on a different footing from civilian officers, seeing that they were liable at any timo to be called upon to carry their lives in their hands on the battle-field. He quoted instances to show that the salaries were lower than those paid in Australia. Tho whole essenco of tho scheme was to avoid caste, and they were endeavouring to ensure that promotion came from the ranks. Tho lieutenant at tho top of the list was formerly a miner and the first half dozen names were those of men not in tho leisured class. “The essence of the scheme is to make it a citizens’ army and if we cannot we shall fail,” he said. The only uniform compulsory wan the khaki, with a blue uniform in addition for the staff. The cocked hat and feathers were not part of the scheme. IS THE OATH ULTRA VIRES? Mr Witty moved a reduction of £1 in tho salary cf the Director of Accounts to indicate his belief that the present oath of allegiance was wrong and illegal. Roverting to the subject of officers’ salaries, Mr Russell championed tho cause of tho Mackenzie Administration, announcing that the defence estimate had been referred back by thG late Minister of Finance with a view to obtaining a substantial reduction of what was originally asked. Tho Mackenzie Government did not want to raise militarism to a fetish, although it was anxious that efficiency should be secured with due consideration to economy. Mr Witty declared that it was illegal to compel Senior Cadets to take the oath, and that it was tho want of tact on the part of the Minister that was bringing the Act into disrepute. The Minister of Defence explained the difference between tho oath in the record book and that in the Act. The alteration was not made to mako the Act any different in principle, but it was simply of an explanatory nature. The addition was that those taking the oath should faithfully servo their officers. That was simply explanatory. He certainly could not admit that it was illegal, but he was prepared to say that the oath to bo administered in the future would be that set out in the Act. If the momber for Riecarton was satisfied, ho should withdraw his amendment.

Mr Witty thereupon withdrew the amendment, remarking that ho wo ill later havo something to say about the past. Mr Isitt moved the reduction of the second itom, two colonels at £750. etc., as an indication that a clause should be inserted in tbo Defence Act- forbidding dress uniforms to Territorial officers. After a statement from the Minister of Defenco, Mr Isitt withdrew the motion. Tbo Hon James Alien oxplainrd that it was bard to do away with showy uniforms already in use, as bail been shown by agitations in Auckland, Wellington and Dunedin in favour of the retention of the kilt. There was no desire to have dress uniforms.

but whilo old soldiers had them they ( need not be worried about it. AUCKLAND’S LOYALTY.

Mr Payne, in opposing the expenditure on what he termed a jingoistic scheme, read to the House a letter written by Harold F. Wise, of Auckland, stating that he had 15,000 signatures to a petition protesting against the compulsory military training scheme. A canvass had resulted in the occupants of seven out of ten households being willing to sign the petition. Mr Glover: I don’t believe it. (Laughter.) The member for Grey Lynn announced that- thero was going to be a general campaign with a view to wiping out “ this iniquitous Act.’ Mr Glover: I venture to say that what lie is saying is absolutely contrary to fact. (Renewed laughter.) Mr Payee went on to say that the anti-militarists would not only not eunport candidates in favour of the scheme, but would work against them. Mr Mvers (Minister of Defence in tho Mackenzie Government) declared that he was perfectly satisfied, as one representative of an Auckland constituency, that the people who had signed that- petition did not understand what thev had signed. Tho object of tho scheme, he emphasised, was the defence of tho country, and this would bn realised an soon as a number of agitators ceased using language that was most inimical to loyalty to the country, (“ Hear, hear.”) Mr Myers went on to state that the cost per head for defence in Australia was £1 3s 9d s Great Britain £1 10s, Canada 10s (a larger programme, however, is being submitted) and New Zealand Ids 10d per head. That, he contended, was nothing to cavil at. He was delighted that tho consensus of opinion was in favour of the continuance of the present scheme. He felt certain that*the people of Auckland, luce those in other parts of the dominion, had made up their minds to see this svstem through. ’ Mr Wilford challenged the member for Grey Lynn or any other member to move a resolution to support his contention that the country was against tho compulsory service system. Let tho country itself know what the House thought. Ho had no doubt of the opinion which would bo expressed. Ho declared that tho newspapers gave undue prominence to a small section by chronicling protests made by those resistors. By doing this the newspapers were responsible for a good deal of harm to the scheme. .... j Mr Harris characterised tho attitude of the member for Grey Lynn as merely seeking cheap notoriety. CONSCIENTIOUS OBJECTORS. Another amendment came forward, Mr L. M. Isitt, who declared that those who thought there wns no objection to compulsion . were living in a fool s paradise, moving a reduction of tbo vote bv £1 to show “ that in tbo opinion of this House no man who pleads conscientious objections to Territorial training, but who is walling to giv-e alternative non-military service, shall be compelled to undergo military training, and that every man shall bo his own judge as to what constitutes conscientious objection.” MINISTER AND CONSCIENCES. The Hon James Allen stated that he had a very great deal of sympathy for what had' been said by Mr Isitt, and if anything could bo reasonably done he was prepared to do it. “ But here is the difficulty,” continued the Minister. “ How many consciences would be suddenly developed? If I could be perfectly sure that consciences would be reasonable ones and that they aro prepared to give equal servico to the country, I am prepared to consider it.” He was not prepared to accept the amendment. He bad been considering the question carefully and would undertake to deal with it in tho amendment of the Defenco Act. therefore be asked the House to trust him rather than

( accept tho judgment of tho member for ; Christchurch North. Mr Veitch entered an emphatic denial to a statement of Mr Isitt that tho workers of New Zealand were so di. loyal to their country as to oppose compulsory military training, i Mr Isitt s amendment was lost by 60 votes to 5, the ayes being Messrs Laul’enson, Hindmarsh, Payno, Robertson and Isitt. [ Air Young pleaded for the sergeant- | majors, who had put in many years’ servico under the old volunteer system, but who appeared to bo overworked under tho new system. Mr J. Coates objected to the fitting of tbo uniforms of Territorials. He held that attention to this department was essential if efficiency was to be maintained. Mr G. Forbes said bo knew of onsei where territorials had to put on their pants with a shoehorn. COURTS MARTIAL. Mr Isitt said ho did not desire to detain tho House, but was forced to movo another amendment. Ho moved tho reduction of the capitation vote by £1 as an indication that military courts should be abolished in timo of peace for trivial offences. Such should be heard iri civil courts. Mr Malcolm field that discipline was essential in an efficient army, and without present conditions discipline would bo impossible. Tho Minister stated that tile whole question of courts martial would bo dealt with in the Bill. The matter had !>ecn a difficult one to deal with in the initial stager, of tbo scheme. They bad to buy their experience. Dealing with the matter of discipline be said that the soldier would never follow his officer unless he knew him. He informed tho House that cost of mounted rifles’ uniform was £4 Ss Id per head, for garrison artillery and infantry £4 4s 4d, and for senior cadets £1 os 2d. Mr Veitch advocated the manufacture of all uniforms by tbo Government, There were, be said, territorial, police and post office uniforms to consider in this connection. Ho honed the Government would also consider the manufacture in New Zealand of all ammunition used here, also the raw material concerned. The Minister said that there was a reserve supnlv of small arm ammunition. He was in communication with Australia as to a reserve of cordite. He added that the Government- could not afford to. provide uniforms for members of rifle clubs. He proposed to keep the Territorial force up to 30.000 and to post the surplus to rifle clubs. Mr Isitt withdrew bis amendment on receiving an assurance from the Minister that military courts-martial would bo considered. In answer to Mr Witty, the Minister said that a good many senior Cadets would be greatly disappointed if they were not allowed to take the oath. The whole matter would be dealt with in the new Defence Bill. In answer to a question, the Minister said that the vote for prizes for rifle clubs would be increased by a vote on the Supplementary Estimates. As to the field artillery that had been recently imported, he believed that it was the best class of gun produced. The mountain battery was specially adapted to such country as that to bo found in tho vicinity of Wellington. The total vote was passed without amendment.