PARLIAMENTARY.

Lyttelton Times, Volume CVI, Issue 12570, 3 August 1901, Page 5

PARLIAMENTARY.

LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL. Friday, ArntsT 2. AFTERNOON SITTING, 41 The Council met at 2.30 p.m. THIRD HEADING. The Rhodes Trust Bill was read a third time and passed. THE NEW HEBRIDES. In answer to the Hon W. C. Smith, the Hon W. C. Walker stated that the protection of British rights in the New Hebrides was getting more important every day. and we should -not give up any rights of*-ours in Pacific waters to strengthen foreign nations in the position which they were unfortunately allowed to. occupy. Tire Premier, in conjunction with -the Commonwealth'Premier, had made representations to the Imperial authorities to take steps to conserve British interests in the group, and the Government would continue in urge this and to advocate enquiry into certain reported purchases of land from the natives by the- French, and the appointment of a competent person to watch British interests. REFERENDUM. The Hc-n Colonel Pitt continued the debate on the Referendum Bill, which he opposed as absolutely useless, stating that the Bill, like others on the Order Paper, was a private member’s Bill that had been taken up by the Government apparently out of good nature. - The Hon H. Scotland also opposed tho Bill. , The Hon F., Arkwright s hostile amendment, that the Bill should be read a second time that day six months, was then put and carried by twenty-nine votes to one (the'Minister of Education being the only member of. the Council to record his vote in favour of the Bill). The noes were:--Hons W. D. H. Baillie. J. W. Barnicnat, W. At. Bolt. C. C. Bowen, H. Fcldwick, H. Gnnrley. B. Harris, J. E. Jenkinson,, W. T. Jennings, C. J. Johnston'. T. Kelly. W. Kelly, J. Kerr,. C.. Louisson. G. M’Lean, W. Montgomery, I). Pinkerton. A. Pitt. R. H. J. Reeves, J. Bigg, H. Scotland, S. E. Shrimski, A. Lee Smith. E. C. J. Stevens. W. Swanson, H. K. Taiaroa, J. .M. Twomey, L. Walker and H. Williams. BILLS. The Police Offences Bill passed through committee without material amendment. The Mortgages of Land Bill was read a second time- and referred to the Statutes Revision Committee. The Council rose at 4.55 p.m. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES. Thursday," August 1. EVENING SITTING. THE ELECTIVE EXECUTIVE BILL. The following are the complete pairs in the division list on the second reading of the Elective Executive Bill: —For the Bill —Messrs Fowlds. Herries, M’Lachlan, Colvin, Gilfedder, Massey, and M’Guire; against the Bill—Messrs Witheford, Field, W. Fraser, Hall, U’Meara,. • Sir Joseph Ward and Mr E. M. Smith. ( Friday, August 2. • MORNING SITTING. The House met at 10.30 a.in. CEMETERY TRUSTEES VALUATION BILL. . The amendments made by the Legislative Council in the Cemetery Trustees Valuation Bill were agreed to. | THE FACTORIES BILL. The Factories Pill (the Preniieh) was read a second time, pro forma, and referred to the Labour Bills Committee. THE COUNTIES BILL. The Premier moved -the second reading of the Counties Bill. He said that he the House should affirm the principle of the Bill, as there was a great ’necessity for legislation for improving the local government of -the country. . The Bill would then. be sent'fd a select committee, where the whole of its details would be threshed out. He went on to say that it must be admitted that there Wits too much 10-cap government, and that there were too many local bodies in the colony. This Bill, however, was to: a great extent optional. If. they wanted to make steady progress, it was better to start .by being -optional, then, if the new order of things was satisfactory, make it compulsory. In explaining the provisions of the Bill,'the Premier said that the existing counties were retained under the Bill. In some parts of the colony he , found that, if there was 'to be ahj local government, at all; the Iloa-d Boards, must be retained. He was in favour of increasing the number of counties and giving ihem extended powers and assured finance. He was not’ at all in love with the present system of subsidies, and should prefer to give subsidies on .the construction of. roads and bridges, as being better than the present system of subsidising rates. The question of finance, however, would be dealt with in it separate measure. Increased powers were given to County Councils io make by-laws, and he .thought it was only right that the hampering restrictions at present imposed, ought td be removed. He asked ■ members to--approach the measure -with- an earnest desire to. improve our system of local-go-vernment. .

Captain Russell agreed that the time had arrived when-the local government system should be revised, but he thought the second reading of the Bill should be held over until a’ Select Committee had considered the Bill. He moved, therefore, that the debate should be adjourned, but did not do so with any-intention whatever of obstructing the passage of the Bill. A Select Committee could. . deal more completely and satisfactorily with the details ot the Bill than the House, and when the committee had finished its labours the House' would have something .tangible to discuss. He did not believe there were half a. dozen members who had properly studied the Bill. The Premier said the Bill was circulated early in- the session. It,had been before a conference at Wellington, and members f-hould be well acquainted. with its provisions. . If they did not want tho Bill let them say so. Eventually the motion for the adjournment" of the ’ debate was’withdrawn, and the debate proceeded.

Mr G. W. Russell said that he believed the people would bo prepared to part with the county system before the Road Board system, and it was unfair on those. Boards which had not been represented at the recent conference on the Bill.

At this stage the Premier asked tp be allowed to withdraw his-motion, for the second reading, with a view of moving it pro forma, in order that it might go as soon as possible to a Select Committee. This was agreed, to, and the Bill was read a second time pro forma on the voices, and referred to a Select Committee. ADVANCES TO SETTLERS BILL. : The Hon C. H. Mills moved the second reading of tho Government Advances to Settlers Bill, to empower the Governor-in-Gouncil to raise an additional loan of two millions for tile purposes of the Govern-ment-Advances to Settlers Act, 1894. He said that up to July 22, advances had been accepted in 9191 cases, amounting to £2,858,570, and it was necessary that Parliament should authorise the raising of a large sum of money to enable the Department to come to the assistance of settlers. Mr James Allen did not think there was

any justification for raising such a. large sum, and he did not believe the money was wanted so much for the Advances to Settlers Department ■ as : for purposes- of, general government. If the Government wanted to raise a loan it should say so straight 'out. •Messrs Guinness and -Barclay generally approved of the Bill as being necessary to increase the usefulness of the Department. ■Tbs debate was interrupted by the luncheon adjournment. AFTERNOON SITTING. The House resumed at 2.30 p.m. . Mr Herries resumed the diba-te on the second reading of the Government Advances to Settlers Extension Bill. He urged that no good reason had been shown why this fresh sum should ba granted. Of th/ ' original loan it was admitted by the Government that £740,000-still, remained, and he considered chat amount would be ample to carry on for at least a year, especially when payments on loans- were taken into consideration. He was in accord with the- general principle of -advances to settlers, and admitted that the system had been advantageous, but he saw no necessity for this additional vote.

Mr Monk said that he would vote against the Bill on principle. He held that the advances to settlers system was, unduly interfering with private enterprise, and he considered that tnis additional money was required by the Government to keep -its banking account buoyant. ■ It was net known yet whether the advances to.settlers system would stand the test of a fall in values. ' ,

The Premier pointed out that tho Bill empowered the Government to raise two millions in the aggregate, but there was a proviso- that not more than one million could be borrowed in cue financial year. The authority formerly given to the Government to- betrow three millions under the Advances to SeUltrs Act was not, he contended, so well safeguarded as was the authority asked for in this Hill. There W3/S t-nly a sum of £560.000 available fur advances- on March 31 last. . That money would be expended by. tho -end of the financial year, and 1 unless an -additional veto wan obtained the business of. .the Department would be blocked. If the Hons? did not pass this Bill it would have to. pass a Loan Bill for a million next Evasion, and there was no use in making two bites of a cherry.. He objected .to any time limit in regard to the raising cf this money. It should be left to the -discretion of the Government ‘when they should borrow, in order to take advantage’of a favourable market. The Gbverninent had been hampered in the past because of th? time limit contained in the- original Act, and that was why tho same restrictions were not put- in this Bill. The Department had done excellent work, and its investments had been very safe. Th-e- valine tie.ns must be carefully watched, otherwise mistakes might be made, and when drey compared the savings made by. settlers borrowing from the Department., with what they used to have to pay, it.was-only reasonable that they should pay for the‘valuation. The money-asked for in this Bill was not intended, for any other purpc-sE-than the Advances to. Settlers Department. - - •

Mr G. W. Russell said that he regretted that the Premier had not stated what was going to be done with this money while it was awaiting investment. ’When the House met next year they might find that the whole of the two millions had been raised, as it mis competent for the Government to raise one million during the current year and one million Airing the period between the close of t-hh? financial year and the opining of next session. He contended that the Department would have about £795,000 available during the cur-rent-year without this loan. Mr Laurenson said that he thought that the time had -arrived when the people in the towns, as well as the dwellers in the country, should be able to take advantage of the Advances to Settlers Act. Ibis extension would mean no loss to the State, and would be of great benefit- to the people. If the Government- watched their ,opportunity, they ought to-be able to raise this loan on very advantageous terms. Mr Ell said'that he looked with apprehension upon- -the -7'Way in- which, interest charges ins this country were being piled up, pointing out that one-third of our revenue Ava-s expended in interest charges on the public debt of the colony, and he thought that the Government should seriously , consider the question of reducing those charges. In his opinion, the Government: had-been most careful in'its administration of the Advances to Settlers’ Department, and the House need have no fear in gtA'ing the Executive the authority asked for in this Bill.

Mr Hogg said that through the medium of the Advances to Settlers’ Office, the Government- had done more to help the country than by anything eke in past times. ' - *Mr Massey said that Avhile he avhs as anxious as anybody else that settlers sbouki have cheap money, no necessity had been shoAAui for this Bill, and he Avould \ - ote against it. Mr J. W. Thomson said that he Avould vote against the Bill for the same reason. - • Captain Russell contended that this money Avas not wanted by the Advances to Settlers’ Department this year. He quoted Clause-32 of the Act of 1894 to slioav that the Government had ample poAver to borroAV the money at any rate of interest they thought fit; and he could not help-belieAung that- -the-mone^-was not wanted’for the Department, bitt for some ulterior object. Such a poAver to 'borrow lavo million's, at any rate of interest, ought not to be given .to the Government, even if the money Avas actually Avanted' by the Department. The English market showed no signs of imorove.menb and the money Avould probably be raised on- short-dated debentures from local financial institutions, at any rate of interest the- Colonial ■ Treasurer liked- to give, and that he considered the dangerous part of'this Bill., His .view .was that; The Department had sufficient money available to obA-iate the necessity of the Government borrowing on its behalf until next year. Mr Meredith-said tbat he thought that the amount to be borrowed under the‘Bill should be reduced-to one million. He was afraid that the raising of further loans just now might jeopardise our credit. Mr Flatman' supported the Bill, contending that if the House trusted the Government in raising three millions;some years ago, it could surely entrust Ministers with the poAvers contained in this Bill. Mr 'Witheford said that he- considered t w the Government should go in for quartz-mining, and establish a New ZeaMr^G. n J. Smith supported the Bill, but «aid- that if the Minister could not .prove in Committee that the second million- was absolutely necessary, he would vote for the sum mentioned in the Bill being reduced that Maoris should be enabled to participate in the benefits of the Act He thought lavo millions too much considered that.- the Adl n Cottiers Act had done more good vances to be-iuem o than any -other measure the present Government had passed. . . , c _ r The debate was interrupted by the 5;o0 adjournment. EVENING SITTING. Tho House resumed at 730. _ Mr Guinness took the chair, in he absence : of Sir Maimoe O Rorkc, who had 86350 on private business. g °Mr Haselden resumed the debate on t.hc a jof the Government- Advances 'Fit-engion Bill. He complained

that political colour cUrudrd itself in some of the negotiations the Advances to Scttk-rs Department had Avith AV-oii/d-De bori'OAvers. Ho Avould agree to a-. c-fi’e million .loan, but satv no necessity for tAvn millions.

Mr Lang said that ho avsji Av.iiing to grant the Department a sufficient sum to carry over one year, but- he Avc-uld oppose the raising of two millions. Mr Pirani said that he had always supported the system of Government advtinees to settlers, but lie thought- that tire Gcn'crnmenb was asking too much in this Bill. Other loan .proposals avctc in - the air, and the borroAving of a iarge sum might affect the value of New Zealand srcuril.es.

The Hon C. IT. Mills, in replying, said that the business cf the Department avhs steadily increasing, and Mi? £560,000 Avhich was available for the current year Avculd not leave a sufficient margin for the -efficient working of the Department. With regard to valuations, the Yalner-Gtneva.l Avas doing his best to get a- bed-rock A'altie, which Avould stand in most casoL Ilia money would be obtained at as cheap) a rate as it Avas possible to get it, and settlers Avould be given the benefit of it. There were times Avlren it would be mest injudicious (n float a loan, and for that reason- it was InaffA’isablo to fix any time limit in th-:' Bill. He av as pleased that the Bill had met. Avith such faA r ourab!e treatment, the only scr.ons difference of opinion being in regard to the amount that should; be borroAved.

Th-a second reading Avas agreed to on the voices.

RATING ON UNIMPROVED : VALUES. The Premier mov-ed the second reading of the Rating on Ur,improved Values ActAmendment Bill (No. 1), Avhich brings the principle of rating on the unimproA-cd value into eetienl operation. Public.opinion and •experience had proved, he said, that there was no necessity for , taking a poll on the question. In only about, five cases had the poll been- lost, and it Aims felt that there should be, only one system of rating in vogue. This was a safe system, and did aAA-ay Avbh the anomalies caused by the other system, under which an improving oAAner av.is .penalised for the benefit of a nor.-improA-ing owner. -Where , this new system had been brought into force, it had giA’en general satisfaction. (Mr Massey. No.) Mr Scddon- Avent on to say it might be possible to enable the ratepayers in any district- to reA-ert to the present- .system if they Avere dissatisfied Avith the unimproved system, or Avhere it worked unfairly. - Air Massey : Will you put such an amendment in?

The Premier: 1 should have no objee tion.

Captain Russell said that he Avas thoroughly conA-inced that the attempt to rate on the unimproved, value Avas a Avill of the Avisp, Avhich could not be grasped. The unimproved value Avould bear hardly on country settlers, and was one of the most iniquitous proposals for taxing country settlers and letting .off- dwellers in toAvns. A reasonable basis for the taxation of country settlers had not been; pro-A-ided, and it had led to very great diff.=recces and consequent dissatisfaction. He .contended that a man Avho lived in luxury in the toAvn paid less taxation than a, man AA-hohad gone into the country a-nd brought his land into cultivation. He objected to -i the-ory Avhich meant- that a- man- Avho carried on a" big business should be rated in the same proportion as the man. Avho lived in a four-roomed cottage. He Avould vote against the Bill. "Mr Stevens said that he had always held that if rating on the unimproved value Aims correct in respect to general taxation, it must also be correct in regard to local taxation.

Mr G. W. Russell looked upon rating on the unimproved value as the exemption of the Avealthy man to the detriment of the. poor man. He shoAV'ed lioav unfairly the system Avould AA-ork in his district, and ne thought .that the case of his district Avas typical-of the colony in general. The attitude of the Government on this question slioAA'ed that they Avere distinctly SAvinging in the direction of the single tax. Mr Hanan quoted Avidely from Home experience to shoAv the- successful -Avorking of taxing on the unimproved A-alue. Mr.Pivani supported the principle of rating on the unimproved value, but said that he Avas opposed to the system being, made compulsory. The trouble under , the system Avas not the rating, but the valuation. , Mr Eli strongly, supported the Bill, quoting extensiA'ely from figures to slioav the successful Avorking of the system. .Mr J. Allen said that no sufficient argument had been adduced to justify the proposal to, make- rating on the unimproved value compulsory. The debate Avas interrupted by the 10.30 p.m. adjournment, and the House rose.