PARLIAMENTARY.

Lyttelton Times, Volume LXVIII, Issue 8322, 9 November 1887, Page 5

PARLIAMENTARY.

[Feb Fbess Association.j LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL. Tuesday, Nov. 8. The Council met at 2,30 p.m, petitions. The Hons Colonel Brett and Dr Menzies presented several petitions in favour of Bible-reading in State schools. The Hon Dr Menzies presented a petition from the tenants of the Otago School Governors, praying for relief. The Hon W. Swanson presented petitions from the unemployed of the Auckland Province, praying for relief. The Hon P. A. Buckley presented a petition from the Catholics of Thomdon (Wellington), praying for relief under the Education Act. The Hon P. Dignan presented a petition from the Catholics, on the same subject, in the Auckland Province. A COMPENSATION BILL. The Hon G. M. Waterhouse brought up the report of the Waste Lands Committee on the Hammond Fencing Compensation Bill. The Committee recommended that the Bill, as amended, be allowed to proceed, and that the Bill be committed to-morrow. The Hon W. B. Mantell moved the suspension of the Standing Orders, in order that the Bill might pass through all its stages to-day. Agreed to. The Bill was accordingly committed, and reported with amendments, the third reading being made for the next sitting day. SUPPLY. An Imprest Supply Bill, received from the House, was passed through all its stages. LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL REFORM. The Hon Sir P. Whitaker moved — " That, in the event of a reduction being made in the number of the members of the House of Representatives, that the members of this Council should be reduced to one-half of the number of members of the House, and that the same proportion should thereafter be maintained; that it be referred to a Select Committee to consider and report as to the best plan by which the reduction can be effected/’ In moving the motion the Attorney-General admitted that his duty was not an agreeable one, but the country demanded that there should be a reduction. ( :< No.”) Well, ha thought the difficulty existed, and he believed that the business of the country and of the Council was transacted better when the members of the Council were fewer than they were at present. In 1877 the number of members of the Council was 43, while in 1885 the number of members of the Council was 54. He believed that if the Council agreed to the reduction of its members the effectiveness of the Council would not be diminished. Looking at the time when the Council numbered only 35, he did not think that the Colony would suffer by the diminution of members. The Colony would certainly gain financially by the motion, if it was agreed to, and became law. He believed that now that the excitement attendant upon the general election was over, the time, if ever it would be ripe, was ripe now. As to the manner in which the redaction should be arrived at, the Select Committee which he desired should be appointed no doubt would decide, and he believed that the savings of honorarium and the proposed reduction in the number of members in the Council would effect a large reduction in the public expenditure, and if this expenditure could could be effected without any diminution in the effectiveness of the public service he appealed to the Council to adopt his proposition. For his .own part, he believed that the public service had been transacted in years past quite as well with a smaller number than at present with the increased members. He put the matter before the Council in the hope that they would accede to the will of the country for retrenchment, which could be accomplished without interfering in the slightest degree with the efficiency of the Upper House. He appealed to the hon members to make the sacrifice he asked of them, instead of waiting until the sacrifice was demanded of them by the popular branch of the Legislature. The Hon E. Oliver complimented the Attorney-General upon his speech, but he entirely disagreed with his premises that the country would attain a benefit by the reduction of the members of the Legislative Council, inasmuch as a reduction of the members of the Council would have the effect of throwing an enormous and increased degree of power into the hands of the Council. Ho sympathised deeply with the Attorney-General in his desire to effect retrenchment, but at the same time he would point out that the Council had no power over the public purse, and therefore the positions of the two Chambers so far as the reduction of members and their honorarium were not analogous. So far as the payment of the members of the Council was concerned, he always had disapproved of the system ever since he had landed in the Colony, and consequently his opposition to the motion could not be set down as from an interested point of view. The Hon J. C. Richmond moved the adjournment of the debate. The Hon G. M. Waterhouse suggested that the debate he adjourned for a week. The Hon Colonel Brett suggested that the debate be adjourned for six months. Eventually the debate was adjourned to Tuesday next. The Council, at four o’clock, adjourned to Thursday next. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES, j Tuesday, Nov. 8. | AFTERNOON SITTING. The House met at 2.30. BILLS. The Wesleyan Methodist Church Property Trust Bill was read a second time, on the Hon Major Atkinson’s notion. Mr Samuel gave notice of the introduction of a Bill to repeal the Triennial Parliaments Act, 1979. ! petitions. A number of petitions were presented praying for State aid to denominational schools. questions. Mr Ward asked if the Government were aware whether the Syndicate with whom the financial operations are being conducted for the Midland Railway have limited the date upon which the negotiations for advancing the .£3,000,000 must be concluded; and, if so, whether it is anticipated that by delaying the closing of the contract the negotiations may fall through. The Hon Major Atkinson said that no certain information had been received, but the Government were informed that the Syndicate with whom the Company were negotiating had fixed a limit of time. He could not say what that limit was, but it had been stated that the Company had adjourned its meeting from Oct. 15 to Nov. 16, in the hope of being then able to complete the matter. Mr Reeves (Inaugahua) asked the Commissioner of Telegrapns if he will give instructions that twenty-five words he substituted for ton words for delayed telegrams, at the existing rates. The Hon E. Mitohelson said the Government could not comply with the request. Mr Hutchison asked the Colonial Secretary if the Government are prepared to rescind the proclamation prohibiting the importation of live stock. The Hon T. W- Hislob said the question would be referred to the Stock Committee. Mr Pvke asked the Government whether any information respecting the whereabouts of the lost torpedo had reached the Defence Office ; also, what was the cost of such torpedo. The Hon T. Fergus said the torpedo had not yet teen recovered, but the Government had offered the usual reward for its recovery, lb could be replaced for £250. Mr i Hutchison asked the Premier .-whether-tlio .Government, prqp.oeo.Hto take/

any steps with the view to secure tie representation of the Colony in the Melbourne Exhibition of 1888. The Hon Major Atkinson said the Government were in communication with the Victorian Government, and they hoped to have a definite answer by Friday. Mr Mints asked the Government if they will take steps to amend the laws relating to juries, so as to provide that all jurors shall, in all cases, be allowed necessary travelling expenses when attending the Court. The Hon T. Fergus said the Governmen t did not feel justified in taking any steps in this matter. Mr Smith asked the Premier if it is the intention of the Government to propose any legislation dealing with absentee landholders, in the way of imposing special extra taxation on this large and increasing class of property owners. The Hon Major Atkinson said it was not proposed to take any action this session. There were two sides to the question, as the Colony received .£60,000 or .£70,000 ayear from persons who were absentees from England. Absentees from New Zealand had to pay Property-tax here and Incometax at Home. Mr Peacock asked the Minister of Mines whether, in view of the great importance of further prospecting the deep levels of our gold-fields, he will reinstate the vote for the subsidy of JEI for JOI by way of assistance in that direction, and also a vote for assistanoe in deep boring by providing diamond drills at a cheap rate. The Hon G, F. Richardson said the Government did not see their way to do anything in the matter this session. Mr Cowan asked the Minister of Education if he will cause the teachers under the Education Act to be brought under the provisions of the Civil Service Reform Act, 1886, with regard specially to Clauses 11 and 12 of the said Act relative to retiring allowances. The Hon G. Fxshee said the Government would consider whether it was at all possible to apply the principle to teachers under Boards. Mr Jones asked the Premier if he will take further steps to prevent the introduction of the codlin moth into New Zealand from countries vhere the pest is known to exist. The Hon G. Fishee said the question was a serious one, and the Government would consider if the Act should not be made compulsory, and its administration handed over to Counties. Mr Reeves (Inangahua) asked the Minister of Defence if there is any truth in the rumour that the Government intend abolishing all country Volunteer Corps in the Colony by withdrawing the capitation allowance. The Hon T. Fergus said the Government contemplated making some change in this direction, but the Government had directed General Schaw to make [a general report on the whole subject of the defences, and till then it would be premature to say anything further on it. Mr Moss asked the Premier if his attention has been directed to an account of the Onehunga Woollen Factory, published in the ManuJcnu Gazette , in which it is stated that girls are expected to work in the factory for forty-eight hours per week, commencing at 8 a.m., and boys fifty-five hours, commencing at 7 a.m.; and if he will cause an official enquiry to be made as to the correctness of the statement. The Hon Major Atkinson said he should enquire into the matter. If it should turn out to be correct steps would certainly be taken to remedy it. Mr Fish asked the Premier whether, seeing the short time available from* this date to the Christmas holidays for public business, he would move that the House for the remainder of the session meet on Monday. The Hon Major Atkinson said the Government did not propose to ask for Mondays at present. Owing to the large amount of work they had to transact, they would (probably next week ask for one of the private members’ days for Government business. Mr Reeves (Inangahua) asked the Government (1) if they will have the Chinese Mining Rates Act amended so that Chinese leaving the Colony may not be granted permit to return; (2) if they will issue instructions prohibiting the naturalisation of Chinese emigrants. The Hon Major Atkinson said the question was a serious one, and the Government would carefully look into it. Mr Smith asked the Minister for Public Works if he will reduce the railway freight on red pine for export outside the Colony down to the same price as, that charged for white pine for export. The Hon Mr Mitchelson said ho had given a good deal of consideration to this question, and had come to the conclusion that the present export for white pine was far too low, but he did not now propose to raise the white pine rate up to that charged for the carriage of red pine. He, therefore, in order to assist the export trade, decided upon reducing the red pine rate for export beyond the Colony by 6d per 100 ft (super.) for long distances only. WESTPORT HAEBOUE. , The Hon E. Mitchelson moved—" That a Select Committee be appointed to consider whether the works for the improvement of the Westport Harbour have been hitherto carried on economically and satisfactorily by the Harbour Board, and to report their opinion whether the present mode of carrying on the works should be continued, or another plan adopted; also, whether the endowments of the said Board have been satisfactorily administered. The Committee to consist of Mr Dodson, Sir J. Hall, Mr Macarthur, Mr M‘Gregor, Mr Ormond, Mr Richardson, Mr W. D. Stewart, Mr Whyte, Mr Withy, and the mover.” Dr Newman moved an amendment to add Groymouth Harbour to the motion. Mr Guinness protested against -the I amendment. j After a long discussion, the amend- | ment was withdrawn, and the motion : agreed to. THE LATE MU DOMETT. The Hon Major Atkinson, before the business on the Paper was gone on with, said ho wished to refer to an occurrence, tho news of which had arrived by telegraph since the House last sat, viz., the death of Mr Alfred Domett. That gentleman, he said, was an old Colonist, and a man distinguished for his character and ability, and highly cultivated intellect. He was one of those pioneers of settlement who had tended to confer on tho Colony that stamp of character of which it was justly proud. He thought it right that the House should recognise the passing away of one of the pioneers who had loft his mark upon our legislature and social life, and he moved —“ That this House desires to take tho earliest opportunity of recording its sincere sympathy with the widow, family and friends of Mr Domett, in the great loss they have sustained in the death of that gentleman, who not only, during many years, rendered valuable services to this Colony, but also ia his admirable, poetical writings, preserved interesting and valuable pictures of this country in its early state, and of its aboriginal race, which will be of value and interest to New Zealanders in all times.” Sir J. Vogel seconded the resolution, bearing testimony to the deceased gentle - man’s high character and attainments, and his conduct as a settler. Sir J. Hall and Mr Kerr having spoken in a similar strain, the motion was carried unanimously. PERSONAL EXPLANATION. Sir J. Vogel wished to call attention to a personal matter which had been referred to in one of the local papers. He alluded to his occupation of the Ministerial residence. He pointed out that the custom with respect to these residences had been of a very varied character and he said that Mr Mitchelson had, on a former occasion, occupied the residence he (Sir J. Vogel) was now using.for five or six weeks after the session opc ned. He merely wished to say that he (Sic J. Vogel) had asked the Premier whether he required the Ministerial residence, and he was good enough to say he would give him notice when it was required. He need scarcely say that i the residence was at the disposal of the Premier when he required it. Ho also took this opportunity of correcting the. exaggerated reports:

ware going about as to the expenses of the Ministerial residence which he occupied. He had asked Mr Mitchelson when taking it over whether the house required any expenditure __ on it, and Mr Mitchelson replied that if he had continued to occupy it, extensive repairs would have had to be made to the house. The Hon Major Atkinson said there was also some misapprehension among members with reference to the custom in these matters. He wished to point out that incoming Ministers who had not taken possession of Ministerial residences did not draw house allowances. If the incoming Ministers allowed their predecessors to remain in the house for a time it was clearly a matter between themselves, and none of the present Ministers either had drawn or intended to draw house allowances while such an arrangement was pending. The Hon E. Mitchelson corroborated Sir J. Vogel’s remarks as to the necessity for expenditure on the Ministerial residences. He said when he occupied the house no money had been expended on it for a number of years, and the carpets were in a disgraceful state. Whoever h«A lived in the house after he had left it would have to expend a considerable sum on it. He dissented, however, from the alterations that had been made in the ballroom. Sir J. Vogel explained that this had been done because he had found it necessary to use the dining-room as an office. MIDLAND RAILWAY. The Hon Major Atkinson said it would he within the recollection of the House that in the recent discussion on the Midland Railway considerable expression of opinion was given that the matter should be given to a Select Committee. He wished now to state that the Government had taken the matter into consideration, and had determined to ask the House to refer the matter to a Select Committee. Ho hoped that under these circumstances, and looking at the deahability of getting the matter disposed of as soon as possible, the House would consent to his moving his resolution without notice. His motion was—" That a Select Committee be appointed to consider the amendments to the contract, and to report their opinion as to whether all or any of them should be adopted.” He would submit the names of the Committee during the evening. In reply to Sir J. Vogel, Major Atkinson said he had no objection to the Committee making a suggestion. Sir J. Vogel said ho should not oppose the motion, but he thought it would have been better to decide the matter in the House. The motion was agreed to. THE HOLIDAYS. Mr Guinness asked whethei*the Premier proposed to give the House any opportunity of expressing its opinion as to whether or not the House should sit on the next day (Prince of Wales’ Birthday.) The Hon Major Atkinson said he should give such an opportunity at once. If the hon member proposed any motion the Government would not oppose it. Mr Guinness moved that the House, at its rising to-day, adjourn till Thursday. Several members opposed the motion. The Hon Major Atkinson pointed ont that if the House wished to proceed with the financial discussion next day he thought it better that no adjournment should take place, but if the House met merely for the purpose of discussing a few motions and one or two private members* Bills, he thought the time would be more profitably occupied in preparing for the work of session. After further discussion the motion was lost on the voices. The House rose at 5.80. EVENING SITTING. The House met at 7.30 p.m. THE RAILWAY COMMITTEE. The Hon Major Atkinson gave notice of the following names for the Select Committee on the Midland Railway:—Mr Allen, Sir J. Hall, Sir G. Grey, Mr Pulton, Captain Russell, Mr Seddon, Mr Levestam, Sir J. Vogel, Dr Hodgkinson, Hon G. P. Richardson, Mr E. Richardson,, Mr Pyke, and the mover. THE FINANCIAL DEBATE. On the motion for going into Committee of Supply, Sir J, Vogel said he congratulated Major Atkinson on some features of his Financial Statement. From a literary point of view he thought it was one of the best ever made. It was a clever Statement from an intellectual point of view, though he could not say it was so from a moral point of view. Supposing the late Government had come down with a similar Statement, and had shirked their duty by proposing to borrow a million more and promise vague retrenchment, they would have been condemned for such proposals. The promises with regard to retrenchment, made, in the Statement, were little more than were made during the general elections, and the Government; had asked for unlimited power. They asked the House to increase the Propertytax to exactly tho same amount as the late Government proposed to do. He proposed to show to tho House what a hollow sham most of Major Atkinson’s retrenchment was. He went into details of the savings proposed in the Financial Statement at some length, and claimed that had the late Government been allowed to carry out their proposals they would, taking the halfyear’s vote against the half-year’s expenditure, have saved .£93,000 up to Sept. SO last on the annual appropriations. Compared with Major Atkinson’s proposals the late Government would have come out .£97,000 better than the Premier could show with all his economies thrown in. He com. plained that Major Atkinson had not treated the House fairly by tho way in which he had prepared the Statement, aa it was of a misleading character. He went into the position of the Sinking Fund at some length, and said he hoped Major Atkinson would understand tho position of that Fund after his explanation. With respect to the proposals made for reducing the Governor’s salary, he did not set much store by the statement made that by reducing the Governor’s salary they would not get a first-class Governor. He would tell Major Atkinson, however; that the proposals he made in this direction would not be a saving. He pointed out that in oases where the Governor was asked to visit several parts of the Colony, if this reduction were made, ho would certainly reply to invitations of this kind that ho should pay such visits if votes were passed by the House for the purpose. As to the reductions in Ministerial salaries, he thought they wore excessive. He read an extract from one of Major Atkinson’s speeches in Hansard, in which the Premier stated he had an utter contempt for reducing Ministerial salaries when proposed by Sir George Grey. Ho (Sir J. Vogel) admitted that Major Atkinson was actuated by a desire for retrenchment, but ho considered the reductions he proposed in this direction were altogether out of proportion to the other branches of the public service. Ho also disagreed with the proposal to reduce the number of Ministers. With respect to the proposals to sell tho Ministerial residences, he was not aware how many of them were to he sold, hut his idea would be to dispose of them all, and if ho had remained in office he should have carried out that intention, aa they were all wooden buildings and expensive to keep up. As to the honorarium question, he believed that the majority of the members had expressed themselves favourable to a reduction, but he thought it should not extend beyond this Parliament. Looking at the near future and at tho conspiracy against democracy that was setting in, he should support the system of the payment of members, and in consequence of that the reduction of the honorarium should only be for three years longer. He voted against the reduction of members last year, as he thought such a large change should not be made without the consent of the people, but he could not be blind to the fact that the country had desired recently that the number of members should be reduced, and that the districts should be enlarged. He should therefore not oppose tho Bill for the redaction of members; seeing that the opinion of the people had been taken on it. He should, however;

tained a majority of votes should be the elect of the people. Referring to travelling allowances, he agreed with the Premier that a very large saving might be made in that direction and the late Government had made considerable savings in it. As to the repeal of the Crown and Native Lands Rating Act, he quite admitted that no member from Canterbury or Otago would oppose that, but it would operate injuriously in other parts of the Colony. He criticised at some length the proposals respecting subsidies to local bodies, and he contended that those proposals would throw on those bodies a quarter of a million of taxation which they were hot at present beating. They were told that £60,000 a year was . to bo saved in the education vote, and opinions differed very much ha to what would be the effect of raising the school age to six years, and it would be very difficult to judge of the age of children between six and seven years. They were told, however, that country schools were not to suffer by this proposal, and it was difficult to see bow ,£50,000 could be saved by this item, as proposed in the Statement. If Government made those savings without the Honse being consulted they would not be true to their election pledges, because there was no question more threshed out daring the election than the education question, and they refused to state in what direction those savings would be made. He referred to the refusal of the Premier the other night to indicate the nature of the savings he proposed, but he now stated that if he (the Premier) adhered to that decision he very much doubted whether he would bo allowed to remain on the Government Benches. The Treasurer asked in fact for an imprest supply for the whole year. The thing was monstrous, and he would tell the hon gentleman at once that if he was going to remain on the Treasury Benches he must give up the idea that he was going to get the unlimited power he asked for. _As regards the savings on railways he said that if non-political Boards were introduced, the expenditure would not be reduced. The non-political Boards were not popular in Victoria with the mass of the people, and would not he popular here. Another reason which induced him to think there was no real retrenchment in Major Atkinson’s proposals was the paragraph which proposed to put the Civil Service under the control of a Board irrespective of the Government. The interference of the Government, in his opinion, had no defined idea of what they proposed to do. He contended that the whole purpose of the Budget was to get them into a way of living on borrowed money, and ho asked any reasonable person if any amount of retrenchment would meet the necessities of the country, unless the Customs revenue were, increased. The Customs revenue at present was lower per head than it had been for many years. He would tell Property-tax payers that, whenever the time came for increasing the Customs, the revenue was not increased. Jt was simply because a weak Government ■was afraid to bring the question before the House. He was not dealing with Freetrade or Protection, but this was a question that concerned all alike, namely, to raise the Customs revenue because the revenue of t'b«» country was not sufficient to meet the expenditure. He asserted now, that if there had been the smallest prospect of dealing with this question, the late Government would not have resigned, hut,they resigned as they considered that was the quickest way of getting the question dealt with. As to the proposed borrowing, he felt perfectly shocked that the Premier had expressed a doubt about the North Island Trunk Loan to the purpose for which it was intended. As to the proposal to borrow a million of money with three years’ guarantee, he warned the House it was a very dangerous thing to give such a guarantee, and it would lead to the entire suspension of public work for at least a year before the time expired. He was entirely favourable to limiting the expenditure on borrowed money, but two great works which should be carried out were the Otago Central, as far as the Taieri, and the closing of the gaps between Woodville and Palmerston. The time had come, he thought, when they should rely more on private enterprise than borrowed -money, but he warned the House against the guarantee. • He thought half a million was necessary at present, but not more. He would not taunt the Premier with the fall in New Zealand stock at present. The Financial Statement had no doubt caused a little alarm, not because of the retrenchment proposed, but owing to the fact that when a new loan was proposed the Agent-General would have to make it known that there ■was a deficit last year. He believed that if they faced the market at the proper time they might get a good price for the loan, but he was strongly against the proposal to borrow two millions. He thought a million and a half quite enough. He was altogether opposed to making the nominated- branch of the Legislature a more powerful branch, and it was totally opposed to liberal principles, as it would absolutely give superior power of government into the hands of a nominee body. Ho heard that the Government were now so much ashamed of this proposal that they now said they had no intention of putting an absolute limit to the number of the Legislative Councillors, but to bring the two Houses together in case of disagreement. With respect to emigration, he felt convinced the House would listen with respectful attention to the proposals of the Government. Pensioner settlements would have to be carefully considered. • He would not discuss the system of lands settlement on that occasion. Ho considered the Native land question of extreme importance, and there was no subject in which the House should be more anxious to help the Government than this one. He wished to say the present Government occupied a singularly weak position in the House. The idea of carrying on that Government was that the Premier .was the lesser of two evils, and that if the House had not Atkinson, it wouldi have him (Vogel). That was a curious position to take up. The country wanted just * now a strong Government, and he was of opinion that until a stronger Government was formed than the present, borrowing was to go on, and retrenchment would not be made. He felt there was a great deal that had been left unsaid, but he had no doubt there would be another opportunity of speaking during the debate. The Hon 6. Fisheb said the speech just delivered was one of the weakest ever delivered by Sir J. Vogel. He considered that the taxation proposed by Ministers was such as ho hoped would secure a reversal of the policy of the lato Government. Referring to the savings promised by the late Government, he would remind the House that those savings were a little lane in the day. After their three years of office, why the late Government had increased the expenditure of the country by £IOO,OOO a year. He said the present Government had conferred great benefits on the community by relieving their minds on the question of taxation. Surely Sir J. Vogel occupied office long enough in the Colony to do it some good, if it was ever in his power to do it any good, but he would not be satisfied with the policy of any Government, in which ho was not included. Nothing but office would suit him. He would like to ask how Sir J. Vogel had saved the Colony three-quarters of a million of taxation during the three years. Why, that hon gentleman had tried on several occasions to impose severe taxation on the people, but bo was prevented by the Opposition from doing so. He pointed out that the late Government werethe means of incurring a most uujustifiable expenditure of £30,000, by causing a second session at a tune when some of their members were convinced they could not come back to the House in a majority. He admitted that the reductions in the Ministers salaries were excessive, but the reason why they were excessive was because the Ministry were actuated by an honest desire to effect retrenchment. As to Sir J. Vogel’s remarks about democracy being in danger, if members were not paid, he would ask whether the hon gentleman had said anything about fiie interests of the democracy when ho sought the suffrages of the Falmouth

electors. Where was democracy then P If it wore true, as stated by Sir J. Vogel, that his Government had made large reductions in travelling expenses, he should like to ask what they could have been before they now stood at £57,000. He defended the proposals of the Government on education, and contended that the House had already had a full opportunity of expressing its opinion on it. Ho undertook to say that it would be found that the amount proposed to be taken from the education vote would not weaken the system at all, but rather strengthen it, as there was growing up a large amount of discontent in the expense incurred under this head. As to the hon gentleman’s remerks about the details of savings, ho wished to state that when the time came the ; Government would take the opportunity of explaining those detailsRcferring to Sir J. Vogel’s statement about the House having control of the public purse, ho would like to ask how he reconciled this statement with the action of his own Government last year in expending £OO,OOO of unauthorised expenditure on village settlements. He (Mr Fisher) was as much against borrowing as any man, hut he felt convinced that it was impossible for a Government to carry on at present without a further loan, and it was necessary to save the credit of the Colony. Whether the Government were weak or not, he was certain they were strong in the country. He contended that there never was a time when individual differences should be sunk in order that the country might be brought out of the condition into which it had drifted of late years. Mr Ballance said that Mr Fisher had just posed as the Radical member of the Cabinet, and had stated that the Government had touched the property classes through the Property-tax. As their sympathies were in that direction, he fully expected that every member of the Government would come out lit the same manner and that they would prove a fullfledged democratic Ministry, fie contended that Mr Fisher had not replied to the speech of the late Treasurer, and he combated tbe statement made that the Government did not intend to touch the wages of the working men. He gave a distinct denial to the assertion that Sir R. Stout had ever stated that he expected hia Ministry would come back in a minority. He condemned the reduction of Ministers’ salaries/" and said the reductions should only bo temporary, and not of such a sweeping character’. With respect to Mr Fisher’s advocacy of a reduction in the number of members, he pointed out that his views did not agree with those of the Premier, as that hon gentleman in 1881 deliberately increased tbe number from 86 to 95. However, if reports were correct, the Premier intended to reverse much of what he had previously done, as he intended supporting the repeal of the Triennial Parliaments Bill, and other Liberal measures, which he had been instrumental in passing. He referred at some length to the education question, and said the Government proposals were most illiberal in character. The retrenchment question, to his mind, was a great question of policy, and the House was entitled to full particulars of the savings, if any. No subject was more freely discussed during the elections than that of education, and the opinion was unmistakoably expressed that primary education should not be interfered with. He defended the Village settlement scheme and said there bad never been more pains taken with any scheme than that. He had been ready to give the fullest information to the House, and not one single penny had been spent beyond the vote of the House, and he maintained there was nothing constitutionally wrong, because the House had received all possible information on the matter. With respect to Railway Boards, he said if was not a fact that those Boards in Victoria had been an unqualifiedsuccess, and he was not at all sure that an expert on Railway Boards would escape the censure which Ministers received. He thought the Boards would escape the censure which the Ministers received. He thought the Board would not work at all, and there was no occasion to go to other countries to import men for this office. He asserted that Sir J. Vogel’s remarks as to a new loan were misunderstood. That hon gentleman had given it as his opinion that a million and a half was necessary for present requirements, being half a million more than was wanted for the North Island railway. He defended his administration of the Native Department, and referred to the position of- the Land Fund at some length. As to the payment of members, he maintained that the present honorarium was not too large. He was also opposed to a reduction in the Governor’s salary, and he expressed the opinion of many people when he said that a Bill to give effect to this reduction would not be assented to at Home. He thought the retrenchment proposed by Ministers in many instances was in the wrong direction. Mr Pearson moved the adjournment of the debate to nest sitting day. Agreed to. The House rose at 12.22 a.m.