PROVINCIAL COUNCIL.

Hawke's Bay Herald, Volume 13, Issue 1088, 1 October 1869, Page 3

PROVINCIAL COUNCIL.

Monday, September 27. Executive Acts Repeal Bill. Mr. Buchanan moved the second reading of this Bill, which is identical with that of last session. (The following speech was, owing to pressure on our space, held over from our last issue.) He remarked that the question was one which had been several times brought before the Council by himself; it had been well discussed, and very general approval had been expressed ofthe principle of the Bill. The only reason why the measure had not long ago passed into law, was that a desire had existed to consult the individual wishes of .the late Superintendent, — that desire arose from the very "peculiar deference" paid by certain members to that gentleman's position, abilities, and the great "benefits which it was supposed he had conferred on the province and the colony. The Council had been led by him like children. This resulted in the consent of the Council being withheld, — the Bill did not pass, although its principle was approved. He now proposed to move it in precisely the same form as it was last session. It did not propose to interfere with any of the paid officers of the Provincial Council,— not with the Provincial Treasurer nor the Provincial Solicitor. All he desired to do was to abolish the Executive, — the scope of the Bill was confined to that, and he believed it would meet with, approval. He did not wish his remarks to be applied personally to any individuals who had held office under the Acts which it was sought to repeal. He objected to that compact phalanx of four —out ofthe small number of 18 members —who coalesced to carry out their own particular views, and tried to overawe members on that side of the House, — rendering them almost dummies. (Hear.) Not only did the late Superintendent and his Executive secure majorities, but overwhelming majorities, making that side of the House look insignificant,— yes, utterly insignificant, had not those members who were then in the minority been upheld by the belief that the day would come when their views would be acknowledged to be correct. Still, he felt that they had been laggards in carrying out the principle. Other small provinces were beforehand ■with us-T-Sonthland, and, he believed, also Marlborough, — while the older and extensive province of Canterbury was moving in the game direction,if it had not actually taken the step. He mentioned these facts in proof of the expediency of conforming to the principle. Let them adhere to, and keep within, the New Provinces Act, for in it would be found all that was really desirable for our local self-government ; it was sufficiently elastic and pliable, and could easily be adapted to our circumstances without any' of the tinkering that would probably adhere to any new municipal measure. He felt confident that, under the New Provinces Act, they could, without an Executive, conduct their provincial affairs economically and well, and face whatever might be the difficulties of our position as a Province. He ridiculed the assumption, on the part of so small a community, of large Parliamentary paraphernalia, and unnecessary forms, — it was a mistake to copy the style of proceeding of great deliberative and legislative assemblies. He was an advocate of simplicity, Tboth in forms and mode of government. (Hear, hear.) He concluded by moving the second reading of the Bill. Mr. Sutton seconded the motion. Debate adjourned. Tuesday, September 28. The Council met at 3 p.m. Present — The Speaker, Messrs. Ehodes, A'Deane, Ferard, Parsons, Sutton, Carlyon, Weston, Buchanan, Tanner, and Lieut.rColonel Lambert. The minutes of the previous day's proceedings were read and confirmed. ' Executive Council. A message was read from His Honor the Superintendent, informing the Council that he had appointed Messrs. J. Ehodes, A. Kennedy, and J. A'Deane members of the Executive Council. State of the Provincial Accounts. The Superintendent transmitted a Report of the Provincial Treasurer upon the state of the Provincial accounts. [This document is reprinted in our supplementary sheet.] The Forty-Mile Bnsh. The Superintendent also forwarded to the Council a letter addressed by him as Government Agent to the hon. the Colonial Secretary concerning the negociations for the purchase of the " Forty-Mile Bush jblock," with the reply thereto. The Superintendent recommended the Council to propose to the General Grovernment to advance the Province sufficient money to purchase the block, upon which a considerable expenditure has been incurred, which will otherwise" be lost. This the General Government might probably be induced to do. The Council might also consider the propriety of authorizing the Commissioners who are going to England to treat with an English Company for the settlement of the block. On the motion of Mr. Ferard, seconded by Mr. Buchanan, these papers were ordered to be printed. Resignation of a Member. Lieutenant-Colonel Lambert enquired whether the" Speaker had received official information of the resignation of Mr. S. Locke ? He asked, because, if such was the case, he wished to take up the two motions standing in that gentleman's name. The Speaker replied that he had received no such intimation. Mr. Bhodes, however, stated that Mr. Locke had resigned, and his resignation would be duly notified in tho Gazette. Lieut.-Colonel Lambert then gave notice of the two following motions hitherto standing in Mr. Locke's name : — That the sum of £500 be paid to the discoverer of a payable gold field, for which Napier will be the port of entry and departure. That the Superintendent be requested to recommend the appropriation of a Bum of money towards opening the road to Kaimanawa for dray traffic. Mr. Febard thought such motions' could only be made in committee of supSite for Common School. Mr. Tanner moved that His Honor the Superintendent be asked to give a piece of land for the erection of a Common School in Napier. Lieut.-Colonel Lambert seconded the motion. Mr. Ferard desired fuller information, as he was not aware that any necessity existed for a Common School. Mr. Tanner explained that at present there was no site available for a Common School; and it was to supply that want that he had moved the resolution. The want of a Common School in Napier was very generally felt; hence the necessity for land on which to build. Mr. Fjjrard remarked that the law required that the inhabitants should subscribe £40 before the Government could grancasite. No reasons had been given for making the request. He was not aware that the present schools were in-adequate,---he believed they were open to children of all denominations.

Mr. Tanner replied that at a meeting I of the Napie? School Trust, recently held in that chamber, which was numerously attended by the parents of children, it was resolved to set aside £4DQ for the purpose of establishing a Common School, — the people would not have done that if they had not felt the necessity for such a school. Perhaps this would satisfy the member for the Town (Mr. Ferard.) Mr. Buchanan said that as there were several " educational reserves," he would like to know which one Mr. Tanner desired to secure. • Mr. Tannek .- Those reserves are none of them suitable. Mr. Carlyon hoped the Council would not consent to the motion ; as he could not see either sense or justice in it. » Mr. Ferard moved that the debate be adjourned till Tuesday, as at present he was ignorant of the wishes of his constituents on the subject. Mr. Sutton,, for the same reason, seconded the amendment. Mr. Ehodes could not see the necessity for Mr. Tanner's motion, as he believed one school was already empty in the town. Mr. Tanner said they desired a site in a central spot. The debate was eventually adjourned for a week. Assisted Immigration. Mr. Parsons asked, — Whether any measures have been taken for the recovery of money owing by individuals for assisted immigration, in accordance with a vote of this Council on 21st May last. — His reason for asking was that it measures were not taken, there would be a considerable loss to the Provincial Government by lapse of time, loss of interest, and loss of immigrants. Mr. Ehodes replied that some steps had been taken ; but not with a fortunate result: it had merely been "throwing good money after bad," — a man had been arrested, kept in gaol, released, and he had since left the Province. Possibly when times improved people would be in a better humour and pay what was due. Assisted Immigration Statistics. Mr. Parsons moved — For a return of all money due on account of assisted immigration, shewing the dates when the same became due, the names of the parties owing the same, and the amounts due by each individual ; also, a return of the I money received by the Government on account of assisted immigration, since 21st May last. Mr. Ehodes said the return asked for would be laid on the table. The Papakura Block. Mr. Paesons moved — For a return of all money due to the Provincial Government by owners and tenants of the Papakura Block, with the names of parties, and the dates when payments were due ; and also the return to shew what steps have been taken to carry out the resolution I of the Provincial Council of 21st May last. Mr. Ehodes said the Provincial Treasurer had been instructed to prepare the return ; it would be laid on the table as soon as ready. A Question of Privilege. Mr. Feraed asked why a certain return shewing the different sections of land reserved for school and educational purposes, &c, which had been ordered last session, had not been laid upon the table. Mr. Buchanan said it was because that Council had not been accustomed to enforce its orders. The late Superintendent's wish was supreme ; he was a Dictator, and they had been accustomed to bow to his fiats. It was, however useless now to worry gentlemen opposite, for they would need the shoulders of Atlas to bear the weight of all Mr. M'Lean's defaults. Mr. Tanner spoke in defence of the late Superintendent. Mr. Ferard gave notice of motion on the subject. Printing of Acts. Mr. Ferard asked when the Acts passed last session would be printed and in the hands of members. Mr. Ehodes replied that they were already printed ; he did not know why they were not distributed, — but it would be done next day. Loan Expenditure Act. Mr. Ferard asked— What course the Government propose to take in consequence of the disallowance of the Ratification of Loan Expenditure Act, 1869. Mr. A'Deane replied that the motion of which he had given notice was a step towards obtaining the allowance of the Act. Interest on Loan. Mr. Ferard enquired — Whether any satisfactory arrangement has been made with the General Government as to tbe charges made against this Province for intorest upoa the loan before the prinoipal was actually available for expenditure by the Province. Mr. Ehodes replied that the, interest had only been charged from the time the loan was raised ; and he could not see how the Provincial Government could now interfere with the existing arrangement. Mr. Ferard thought that last session the charges against the Province were considered unfair. Had any further action been taken in the matter ? Mr. Ehodes : No, not that I am aware of. Provincial Auditor's Salary. In reply to Mr. Ferard, Mr. Ehodes said that the Provincial Auditor's salary being fixed by the General Government, could not be reduced by the Provincial Government. Provincial Debt. Mr. Ferard asked — Whether any action. has been taken by the arbitrators as to the apportionment of the debt between Wellington and Hawke's Bay, and whether it is probable that the matter will be settled before the departure of Mr. Dillon Bell for England. Mr. Rhodes believed that no action had yet been taken ; but it would be before Mr. Dillon Bell's departure. Inspection of Schools. Mr. Ferard asked — Whether the Inspector of Schools actually inspected the schools of the Province subsequently to his report of the 12fch May, 1869, and whether he has been paid any salary in respect of his servioes. Mr. Ehodes replied that the schools had not been personally inspected ; but the Inspector had got through a great deal of office work, &c. His salary had been paid. Cattle Trespass Act. On the motion of Mr. Parsons, seconded by Mr. Sutton, a Bill to Amend the Cattle Trespass Act was brought in, read a first time, ordered to. be printed, and its second reading fixed for next day. Debate on Executive Acts Repeal and Amendment Bill. Mr. Tanner resumed the debate on the motion for the second reading of the Executive Acts Eepeal Bill. He was aware that the subject had been almost worn threadbare ; but the chief reason why he had pressed for an adjournment of the debate, was that he was not quite satisfied with clause 4, which read as follows : — That in all cases whereby at present it is required by any act of the Superintendent and Provincial Council of Hawke's Bay that the said Superintendent shall act by and with the advice of the Executive Council, he, such Superintendent, shall hereby have full legal right and power to act alona. — But he found that the difficulty which he had apprehended did not actually exist. He would take that opportunity of saying that he entirely disagreed with many of

tbe remarks which, had fallen from the member for the Napier Country District (Mr. Buchanan). It was not correct for that gentleman to say that the members oi that Council were " led like children," instead of acting like men. He asserted that the hon. Mr. M'Lean, during the years in which he had discharged the duties of Superintendent, had never— as alleged by Mr. Buchanan — acted as Dictator ; on the contrary he had always appealed to the feelings of the Council. With regard to his (Mr. M'Lean's) retention of his Executive, he had simply asked the Council that the men who stood by him, and worked harmoniously with him for a series of years, should not be removed so long as he held the Superintendency, especially as at the time the country was in a critical state. The Council acceded at once to the Superintendent's earnest request; and their compliance therewith received the endorsement of public approval. A Dictator was one who was invested with absolute power. Now, there was nothing dictatorial in the action taken by Mr. M'Lean, which he had just described. The great mass of the public had never blamed the late Superintendent for the action ho had taken in that Council. The movement for the repeal of the Executive Acts was in accordance with the feelings and wishes of most — if not all — the members of that Council; and as soon as it was known that Mr. M'Lean had accepted office in the General Government it was felt that the time had come when the repeal could be carried into effect. He should support the motion for the second reading. In conclusion, he remarked that he cordially approved of the views expressed by the newly-elected Superintendent in his address. He thought that the position proposed to be taken up by Mr. Ormond was the one which was most likely to conduce to the beneficial working out of Provincial institutions. (Hear, hear.) Mr. Ferard quite felt the force of the objections that the member in charge of the Bill urged against the present Executive, and also the objections alluded to by the Superintendent; and if he had appeared to act as an obstructive to the progress of the Bill, it was as much because he thought it unwise to proceed to alter the system upon which the Government of the province had been hitherto conducted without the assistance of one who had thought over the matter so much as the late member for Porangahau (Mr. Ormond), and had so much practical acquaintance with the working of the present system, — as because he (Mr. Ferard) wished that the new Superintendent might be present to arrange with the Council a system which they could work harmoniously in concert. He felt that the existence of an Executive Council nominated by the Superintendent gave him a preponderating influence which/prevented the Council from exercising any effectual check upon his actions. The necessity, on the one side, of making headway against a compact body like the Executive, and on the other of self-defence, were productive of party combinations and struggles, and much waste of time. The excessive power which the Superintendent had hitherto exercised must be curtailed. This was not to be effected by enabling him to do " alone" that which he could only now do with the consent of his Executive. Small as had been the influence of that Council, he believed it was some check, and he did not think it should be swept away without some further alterations in our system, — without that Council becoming more of an administrative body, adapting its forms of proceeding accordingly, and holding its meetings more frequently. (" Oh, oh.") He did not think they were fairly open to ridicule for trying to imitate larger communities in their Government and Parliamentary forms. Our institutions were essentially democratic. The Provincial Councils were intended by the framers of our Constitution to be legislative bodies ; they were to deal with the public revenues by Act on the recommendation of Superintendents, in analogy to the mode in wnich the Commons grant money at the request of the Crown in England : the Superintendents, in other respects, were placed somewhat in the position of the Crown, or a Governor, towards them. Executive functions had not been conferred upon the Superintendents, but it was left to them and the Provincial Councils of each province to determine in what manner the business of the Province should be conducted. He believed they were right in thinking that they could not usefully discharge their trust of regulating the public expenditure unless the administrative departments were under their control, and this could not be effected by handing over the administration of affairs to the Superintendent alone, who was independent of them, and, in some respects, their master. The Councils might have entrusted the administrative functions to permanent paid officials acting under their instructions ; but there were practical difficulties in the way, which were increased by the fact that the times of meeting of the Councils were uncertain. Unity of action in the Executive, thorough information to guide the Council in the appropriation of the public money, and the effective control of the executive department by the Council, as representatives of the people, were required. The Councils thought to effect this by following the analogy of the form of government in England, upon which their Constitution seemed based, and entrusting executive functions to the Superintendent, acting by and with the advice of a body chosen from amongst themselves, and who, it was supposed, would be responsible to them, . and would cease to hold office when they ceased to possess the confidence of the Council. It was supposed that the Superintendent's executive functions would be almost nominal — analogous to those of the Crown, and that the officers of the Executive Council would be the real administrators. Experience, however, had shewn the fallacy of this. Mr. Ferard continued at considerable length in explanation of his views on this question. Lieut. -Colonel Lambert said that though he should support the Bill, he denied the accuracy of the assertion that Mr. M'Lean had simply " appealed to the feelings of the Council." Did he not, in effect, try to coerce the Council, and threaten to resign, — upon which three members (rather than do violence to their consciences) walked out of that chamber? (Hear, hear.) They wanted to abolish the preponderating influence of the Superintendent, and make him simply the executive officer of the Council, carrying out its resolutions, and seeing to the proper expenditure of the public moneys. He dissented from Mr. Ferard's views, both in principle and detail; but supported the Bill, as it was a step in the right direction. Mr. Rhodes declared that there was a wonderful waste of time on this subject. The Executive Council was dying a natural death, and there was, therefore, no necessity for the exhibition of such a vigorous desire to strangle it. (Laughter.) Tory possibly, before 12 months were over, the Provincial Council itself would be in extremis. He could not see the necessity for all this talk. Mr. Buchanan, in reply, said it was a satisfaction to a man who had adhered to his honest convictions, through good re-

> port and through evil report, to find it at 5 fast acknowledged that the measure which r he had so often advocated was a step in the I right direction. (Hear.) In past ses- • sions the principle of the Bill was adL mitted to be good ; but upon grounds of Personal deference to the late Superintenent it had not passed into law. The Sui perintendent and his colleagues — the com- ■ pact mass of four, which had already been • alluded to, — although often differing from , each other in opinion, were animated by a ■ certain esprit de corps, and they usually . • voted en masse. In some of the older Pro- . vinces, the Superintendents, being elected . by the people, could appeal to the people in justification of their acts : like Napoleon they could say, " I care not for the Council, »— I will appeal to a plebisdtmi." . The real business of this Province was, in the main, not more important than that j i transacted by many County Boards in ■ England, who disposed of most of their business by weekly committees appointed from amongst themselves. He sincerely hoped that under Mr. Ormond's administration, and with the passage of the Bill, all political feeling would in future be eliminated from their proceedings. (Hear.) He regretted to say that in the past there had been a constant struggle to make everything serve political ends. He confessed that he had himself participated in this feeling ; but now he was ready to join any side simply to carry out in their integrity the municipal functions of the Council. He concluded by moving the second reading of the Bill. Motion put, and agreed to nem. con. On Mr. Buchanan's motion the Speakee ' left the chair, and the Council went into committee upon the Bill, Mr. Sutton acting as Chairman of Committee. Progress was reported at 6 o'clock, p.m., and leave given to sit again at 7. 30 p.m. On resuming at 7. 30 p.m., the Bill was re-committed. Clause 4 was amended on the motion of Mr. Caelyon, to read thus : — That in all caees whereby at present it is required by any act of the Superintendent and Provincial Council of Hawke's Bay that the said Superintendent shall act by and with the advice of the Executive Council, he, the Superintend^, shall henceforth be empowered to act alone. The title of this measure was altered to "An Act to amend the Executive Act, Session 1, No. 1, and to repeal the Executive Act, Session 4, JSTo. 4." The Bill was reported with amendments, and its third reading made an order of the day for Wednesday. The Harbour Moorings. Mr. Buchanan asked the member representing the Government whether any steps had been taken to replace the moorings in the Ahuriri roadstead ? Mr. Ehodes replied that when the Government paddle steamer Sturfc, Captain Fairchild, was here last, an attempt had been made to pick up the moorings which were now supposed to be embedded in the mud at the bottom of the. anchorage ground. The Sturt was, however, ordered off on the public service after a couple of hours' work. The attempt to recover the moorings could only be undertaken by a steamer; Captain Fairchild seemed very sanguine as to the result, and when he returned to this port, the attempt would be resumed. The Provincial Government were not in a position to buy new mooring tackle. Notices of Motion. Several notices of motion were given for the next day. Adjournment. The Council adjourned at 8.30 p.m. till next day at 3 p.m. Wednesday, Septembeb 29. The Speakee took the chair at a quar-ter-past 3 p.m. Present : Messrs. Ehodes, A'Deane, Buchanan, Sutton, Ferard, Parsons, Carlyon, Tanner, Weston, Kennedy, and Lieut.-Colonel Lambert. The minutes of the previous day's proceedings were read and confirmed. Reivard for Discovering Gold-field. Lieut.-Colonel Lambeet moved — That the sum of £500 be paid to the discoverer of a payable gold-field, for whioh Napier will be a port of entry and departure. Mr. Tannee seconded the motion. Mr. A'Deane : It will be moved in committee of supply. Lieut.-Colonel Lambeet : Very well, — let it come on in due course. I only took up the motion because the member (Mr. Locke) who originally gave notice of it, has resigned. Permission was given to withdraw the motion ; in order that it might be moved in committee of supply. Opening Hoad to Kaimanawa. Lieut.-Colonel Lambeet moved — That His Honor the Superintendent be respectfully requested to recommend the appropriation of a sum of money towards opening the road to Kaimanawa for dray traffic. This motion was also withdrawn for the same reason. Amendment of Slaughter-house Act. Mr. Tannee moved for leave to bring in a Bill to alter and amend the Slaughterhouse Act. Mr. Caelyon : I move that the Bill be read this day six months. (Laughter.) Mr. Tannee: Leave has not been granted to bring in the Bill yet. (Eenewed laughter.) Mr. Feeaed objected to the introduction of this Bill, as the Act itself was a recent one, and it was desirable that the present session should come to a speedy termination. Though the Council had such complicated forms of procedure, they were passing most of their time in floundering about. (Hear.) Matters of importance — the repeal and amendment of Acts — were brought on without notice, and members had not opportunity to prepare for the proper discussion of such measures. Mr. Sutton opposed the motion, as the measure was not necessary ; and it was not fair to attempt to pass such a Bill when four seats were unoccupied. Lieut.-Col.^Lambeet objected to any hurry ; but, as a matter of courtesy, urged that leave should be given to bring in the Bill. Objections might be taken by members on the motion for the second reading. ■ Mr. Caelyon made a few remarks, adverse to the Bill. Mr. Tanner said it was not customary •to enter into a discussion on the merits of a measure on the motion for leave to introduce, or on the first reading. (Hear). . His learned colleague (Mr. Carlyon) was most obtuse. Mr. Caelyon : Don't you attempt to > lug mo into it. (Laughter). i Mr. Tanner : Now he does not want ■ to be "lugged into it." If leave was ■ granted he would show that it was desiral ble, in the interests of the public, — and in » the interests of the butchers, (whose ■ champion his learned colleague had constituted himself,) — his colleague's particular i friends the butchersMr. Caelyon: I know nothing about I them. Mr. Tannee would propose to reduce i the fees payable by the butchers one-half 1 their present amount. s Mr. Buchanan hoped leave would be • given to bring in the Bill. This was a r mere matter of courtesy. He would support the motion, even though he might i oppose the Bill on the motion for the > second reading. Mr. Cablxon. said his chief objection

was that Ms colleague was attempting to legislate— as lie often did— on a matter in which he was pecuniarily interested. The motion was agreed to on a division, and the Bill brought in. , On the motion of Mr. Tanneb, seconded by Lieut.-Colonel Lambeet, it was read a first time, aud the second reading fixed for next day. Messrs. Caelyon and Weston protested. Mr. Tannee considered this in very bad taste on the part of Mr. Carlyon. Mr. Cablyon retorted that it was certainly in very bad taste in his colleague to initiate the amendment of a Bill in order to serve his own pecuniary ends. Unatctfiorised JUxpenditwe. Mr. Febabd asked if the Superintendent had received from the Provincial Auditor any such statement of unauthorised expenditure as is required to be furnished to him under the provisions of the Audit Act, 1866. Mr. A'Deane replied that the time (pne week) prescribed by the Act, had not elapsed. Mr. A'Deane moved — Whereas the " Provincial Audit Act, 1866," provides that unless an address to the Superintendent, to send to the Council a recommendation to grant a sum of money sufficient to meet the unauthorized expenditure, shall be passed by an absolute majority of the entire number of the members of the Provincial Council, the Provincial Auditor shall commence suits in the Supreme Court to recover the penalties recoverable under the said Aot, for signing and issuing special orders for the issue of money -without appropriation ; and whereas it is necessary to release the Superintendent from the penalties to which he is liable for such over and unauthorized expenditure, the Council requests the Superintendent to submit to the Council a recommendation to grant a sum of money sufficient to meet the said unauthorized expenditure. -»He explained that the motion was necessary in consequence of the Eatification of Loan Expenditure Act having been disallowed by the Attorney-General. If the Council affirmed this 'motion, he should, at a further stage of the proceedings, move for leave to bring in a " Eatification of Loan Expenditure Act, 1869." Mr. Ehodes seconded the motion. Mr. Feeaed said such a motion plainlyindicated in what estimation that Council was held. They were asked to take steps to get certain unauthorised expenditure sanctioned without knowing what that unauthorised expenditure might be. It appeared to be deemed quite unnecessary to place the items before members, it being assumed that whatever the late Superintendent expended without authority would be sanctioned by the Council ; but the motion might be made to extend to any unauthorised expenditure. He was sure the General Assembly never expected any Provincial Council would be called on to pass such a measure. But it was like everything done in that Council — the Superintendent could, apparently, do anything he liked. (Mr. Buchanan : " Hear, hear.") It was, perhaps, as well that the actual position of things should be thus placed broadly before the Council. Mr. A'Deane explained that the Eatification of Loan Expenditure Act gave the items. Lieut.-Col. Lambeet wanted them stated more in detail. In that Act £3862 was mentioned as the sum expended without legal authority. Mr. Buchanan called attention to the fact that there were only 8 members present ; it required an absolute majority (10 members) to pass such a motion. It would therefore be best to postpone or withdraw it. It would certainly be useless to press it now, as ifc could not pass. Mr. Ehodes : As the expenditure occurred in the late Superintendent's term of office, it did not in any way effect the present Government. (Hear, hear.) Mr. A'Deane considered that as the Council was only asked to do what they had done last session, and that Act had been disallowed by the Attorney-General on a purely technical point, the obstructive course now adopted was most ungracious to the late Superintendent and the present Government. Permission was not asked for any fresh unauthorized expenditure. x Mr. Ehodes : There is no utility in now pressing the matter ; it is sure to come before the Council in some other form. This motion and a contingent motion, (for leave to bring in a " Eatification of Loan Expenditure Act,") were therefore postponed till next day. Mr. Caelyon having left the chamber, and taken a seat in the. " strangers' compartment." Lieut.-Colonel Lambeet called the attention of the Speaker to the fact. (Laughter.) The Speaker said he could not interfere with the member for Te Aute ; except by ordering the "strangers' galley" to be cleared. Disputes tritli Leaseholders. Mr. Ehodes moved— That a question having arisea between some of the Hikutoto leaseholders and the Provincial Government, as to the conditions of the agreement under which the Hikutoto lands can be purchased by the leaseholders, this Council is of opinion that the question had better be settled by a reference to the Supreme Court, on agreement of the parties concerned. — The Papalrara block had been a positive loss to the Provincial Government, and it was very likely that the Hikutoto would be the same. Mr. A'Deane seconded the motion. Mr. Pabsons thought the Council should be acquainted with the nature of the dispute. Mr. Ehodes : The point in dispute is as to the real cost price of the land over the whole block. It was a question which only the Supreme Court could settle. Mr. Buchanan : Are there any papers? Mr. Ehodes : I think not. Mr. Tanneb thought the proposal of the Government was very reasonable, as it would refer the whole question to the only tribunal which was competent to deal with the questions in dispute. Mr. Caelyon said the Supreme Court would not take any notice of a resolution of that Council. It was all nonsense, therefore. . Mr. Ehodes : This was to bring a friendly suit between the parties, before a judge in chambers. It was not to authorize the Superintendent to bring actions against the leaseholders for the recovery of rents in dispute. Motion agreed to on a division. Returns. Mr. Feeaed moved — For a return shewing the different sections of land in the Province of Hawke's Bay reserved for school and educational purposes, number of section or block, area, annual rent, name of lessee, for what term leased, periods (if any) fixed for increase of rent ; and also a return of all other reserves in the province, and the purposes to which they are put It was necessary (Mr. Ferard said) to get an accurate return, and to have it printed. Lieut.-Colonel Lambeet seconded the motion. Mr. Ehodes : The whole of the information is already in the Blue-book, and would probably answer the mover's purpose. A manuscript copy of the return could be laid on the table. Mr. Feeaed was informed that that return was very inaccurate, and , not sufficiently reliable to make any calculation with jceferen.ee to revenue. A manuscript

return would be useless . He would with .draw his motion. Lieut.-Colonel Lambb \B!S objeoted to its withdrawal. The motion was negatived without s division. Site for a Grammar School. Leave was granted to Mr. Ehodes to bring in a Bill to grant a site \ for a Common School in Napier. The Bill was read a first ti ! me, and the second reading fixed for next day. Immigrants' Promissory Notes. Lieut.-Colonel Lambert co mplained of the unsatisfactory action of tl le late Superintendent and his Executft r e with reference to the non-rof every of n loneys due on Immigrants' promissory n .otes. He was dissatisfied with the answe r given to the member for Petane on the si ibject. It was not sufficient to prosecute and imprison one unfortunate man ; sor ac vigorous steps should be taken to recover these moneys, which were justly due. .He knew of parties who were able to pay ;; and he supposed that the neglect of tine .matter was because enforcing such payment was unpopular. He hoped the just claims of the Council would be enforced " without fear, favor, or affection." (Hear.) Cattle Trespass Act Amendment Hill. Mr. Paesons moved the seoond reading of the Cattle Trespass Act Amendment Bill. He explained the nature of the amendments proposed. Mr. Sutton seconded the motion, Mr. Feeaed questioned the wisdom of some of the proposed amendments. They would press harshly upon settlers' in. new districts who had not fenced in. It would place settlers too much in the power of spiteful neighbours, and might retard settlement, and would facilitate the operations of cattle-lifters. Mr. Tannee thought it a very necessary bill, as it was too common a habit to turn horses and cattle loose on roadsides, whenever there was any grass. These animals did much damage to drains and ditches, treading them down, and also injured fences and hedges. The gain to the public by passing the Bill would be far greater than any little risk or inconvenience such as that contemplated by Mr. Ferard. The motion was agreed to. The Council resolved itself into committee on the Bill, Mr. Sutton in the chair. , - The Bill was reported with, amendments, and the third reading, fixed for next day. Executive Act Repeal Hill. The Speaker intimated that the legal adviser of the Superintendent had certified that he could see no legal objection to the Bill. Mr. Caeton : Who certified that ? You ruled yesterday, Mr. Speaker, that there was no Provincial Solicitor. The Speakee: I only gave you the information which was given to me. Mr. Caelyon : The standing rule requires that after every Bill has passed its second reading and "been committed it should be referred to the Provincial Solicitor for his opinion. Has that been done ? Was there a Provincial Solicitor ? Mr. Ehodes stated that the Superintendent had appointed *M.v. Wilson " Acting Provincial Solicitor," — although that gentleman had some time ago resigned his appointment as "Provincial Solicitor." That gentleman was receiving, and had always received his salary. Mr. Caelton denied the validity of such an appointment, and demanded the production of the resignation and of the present appointment. After some irregular discussion, The Speakee ruled that there was sufficient evidence before him of the.existence of an Acting Provincial Solicitor. Mr. Caelyon -. There is no such office, —the thing is absurd. Mr. Buchanan held that the spirit of the standing order, requiring that the Bill should be submitted to the Provincial Solicitor, had not been complied with. Having thus entered his protest, he moved the third reading of the Bill. Several objections having been raised to the passage of the measure, he replied to themseriatim, regarding those objections as mere "stalkhorses," by which some would desire even now to get rid of the Bill. The third reading was agreed to, and the Bill passed, without division. Su/pply. Mr. A'Deane moved — That His Honor the Superintendent be requested to place upon the Estimates — £400 for repair of Main South Koad from Havelock to Southern boundary of Province. £500 Reward for discovery of a payable Gold-field within the Province. £500 for opening road to Gold-field Bhould such bo discovered. On the motion for going into committee, JVIr. Feeaed complained that the Council had been badly treated by the Government. It was promised, last session, that the estimates should be printed and circulated. Such had not been done. In regard to the inspection of schools, it appeared that though the Inspector had not performed his duty, he had been paid his salary. The schools of the Province had not, he believed, been inspected since December, 1867. Then as to the salary of the Provincial Auditor, it had not been reduced, notwithstanding a resolution passed last session, which was seconded by the then Superintendent. With regard to the interest on the loan there was reason for complaint. Under all these circumstances, Be thought it would be well that estimates of expenditure should be submitted to the Council, — otherwise there was a danger that the public money would be spent on the Superintendent's pet schemes, while other projects would be starved. He thought the position of the Council was very degrading, and members should not submit to it if they had a proper sense of self-respect. Mr. Buchanan thought the proposal of the Government to go into committee of supply was ill-advised. The Provincial Treasurer's Eeport on the state of the Provincial Accounts was, in his opinion, very unsatisfactory, — especially as to the estimated revenue. He believed that nearly one-half of it was " all moonshine." It was, therefore, unwise to propose fresh expenditure in the face of a probable deficiency. In the Eeport of the Finance Committee, laid on the table on the 9th May last, it was stated that £4875, the balance of the loan, remained to the good. What had been done with the money P If it had not been applied to the purposes for which the loan was raised what was the balance in hand ? The possibility of the Government recouping the Treasury, on the loan account, for all that had been drawn up to the 30th June, was never anticipated. But for whatever laches had occurred since, he hoped full information would be demanded. Information was also required as to the Waitangi purchase. Now that a new regime was being initiated, it was necessary to ascertain the actual position of affairs, — and to take care that the irregularities of the past were not perpetuated in the future. Unless that was done, there was nothing for it but heavy direct taxation or collapse, and perhaps it would have been as well if provincialism had ceased to exist long ago. The General Government, it was certain, would not take the province on its hands,— that used to be referred to 'as the panacea for all our ills ; as the General Government had quite enough on its hands. He proposed an j amendment,-^-Ihat the .Council go into committee of supply on that day week.:

- . Mir. BHdi^sjtidfcedyM the last speaker, who had[ found aijaa|t; j peg to hang a lotig speechsnK^in?:lbi^fe| . of his remarks there was a modicum of*; ; i truth ; but; as he and his cplleagilefi fiiii'iihS' '* Executive only acted as a; Grovernnignt exofficio for a few days; thY member -for > the Napier Coxmtry District, wasr;vi6ry='). l much mistaken if he supposed they were going to take up the cudgels for we late i or the present Government. The. items '•= proposed were originally' suggested iby private members, not by the Government.' } If a goldfield should be discovered in the ■ * province, £500 as a reward ; for .the discoverers would be easily found, and £500 at the back of., that* (Hear.) . If ;it was 1 claimed, so much the better for the province. He could say that, within thelast three months, no money had been appropriated from the loan account, or in any way except as authorised by the Council. He was glad to say that- the financial: prospects of the province were not so gloomy as had been painted. The funds would last out the year; and the. public business would not come to a standstill. After the end of the present financial year, unless there was a great influx of population (such as would result from the discovery of a goldfield), then taxation would , be the only remedy. There was.no desire ' on his part, or on the part of the Superintendent, to conceal the actual financial position of the province. (Hear, hear.) The Speaker then left the chair, and . the Council went into committee of supply- . After some discussion, Mr. Buchanan asked whether,—if the , items under debate were agreed to,— an Appropriation Act would be brought downP A mere bald resolution of the Councjl would have no effect. Mr. A'Deane had no doubt the Superintendent would do all that was necessary, even for his own protection. (Hear.) The three items were agreed to, — ther~~*» first with a proviso. Progress was then reported. Ratification of Loan Act. Leave was given to bring in the " Ratification of Loan Expenditure Act, 1869," and it was read a first time, the second reading being fixed for next day. Adjournment. The Council adjourned at ten minutes past 10 o'clock p.m. to 11 o'clock a.m. next day. Thubsday, Septembee 30. The Speaker took the chair at 11 a.m. Present — Messrs. Buchanan, Weston, Parsons, Sutton, Ferard, A'Deane,, Carlyon, Ehodes, and Lambert. Salary of Provincial Auditor. Mr. Ferard, pursuant to notice, moved An address to His Excellency the Governor, . representing that, inasmuch as the duties of the Provincial Auditor have become considerably lighter, in consequence of the great diminution in the provincial revenues, and that the salaries of most provincial officers have been considerably reduced ; this Council is of opinion that a salary at the rate of £100 , per annum is sufficient for the Provincial Auditor, and request His Exoellenoy to fix the salary at that rate for the period in whioh the Provincial Auditor shall be aotu-. ally discharging the duties of the office, and the salary of the Deputy- Auditor at the like rate, for the period during which the duties ■ of Provincial Auditor shall be performed by him ; and that a seleot committee be appointed to prepare such address. . : — The motion lapsed, not having been seconded. Education Mate, . Mr. Pabsons moved— For a return shewing the names of the people who have paid the Education Bate recently collected. — Agreed to ; Mr. Ehodes promising that the return should be laid upon the table. Papahwra Bents and Road Levies. Mr. Parsons moved— That in the opinion of this Counoil, immediate steps should be taken to recover the -~v" / rents and road levies, due by lessees in the Papakura and Hikutoto blocks, —Motion agreed to. Indemnity. A resolution indemnifying the Superintendent for over-expenditure, as given in Wednesday's proceedings, was withdrawn, there not being an absolute majority present, or agreeable to its passing. Forty-Mile Bush. Mr. A'Deane moved — • That this Council, having considered Message No. 6 and accompanying document from His Honor the Superintendent, on the subject of the purchase of the block of land known as the Forty-Mile Bush, resolves — That it is highly desirable that the completion of the purchase should be effected, and the district in question settled. That the recommendation of the Superintendent that the settlement of the Block might be advantageously arranged in England, by the Commissioners who are about to proceed there on business for the Colony, be adopted. That the Superintendent be requested to communicate with the Commissioners, and arrange the conditions upon which the Blook may be handed over to an English company for settlement, and the Provinoe secured from pecuniary loss by the transaction. > That the Superintendent be further requested to put himself Jn communication with the General Government, with a view to obtaining the necessary sum, to complete the purobase of the blook ; the said sum to be accounted an advance, and made a first oharge upon the proceeds of the sale of the land. That the Superintendent is further re« quested to urge upon the Government that the political importance of the settlement of this district, is sufficient to justify them in making the advance in question, and_ to impress upon the Commissioners the service they will render to the Colony should they consent to endeavour to carry out the proposed negotiation. — Agreed to without discussion. Common Schools. Mr. Ehodes moved — That the Superintendent shall ece-offioio be requested to attend the Supremo Court, when the Napier Common School funds are administered, to represent the interest of the Government of this Provinoe therein. — Motion agreed to. Re-transfer to Loan Acconnt. Mr. Febabd moved — To ask His Honor the Superintendent to request the Bank of New Zealand tore-trans-fer to the Loan Account, the sum of £3862 6s 9d., part of the proceeds of the Loan, improperly transferred from the Loan Account to the General Revenue Account of the Province ; such transfer having been made with the knowledge by the Bank, that suoh money ' . was not being devoted to the purposes for : , whioh the Loan was raised, and in the event of the Bank refusing to do so, to take legal • opinion as to the power to compel suoh re—The motion was shelved by Mr.; Buchanan's moving the previous question. Sheep and Scab Bill. Mr. Tanner obtained leave to bring in ■•■ a Bill entitled the " Hawke's Bay Sheep Act," which was read a first time. • .-• .-"• .;: The Council resumed its sittings at j7, : _: ' when the Slaughter-House Amendment Bill, on its second reading, and the-Rati-fication of Loan Bill, came under d|soussion. The Eatification of Loan Bill was post- , poned. The Slaughter House Bill/ after - ■ an angry discussion, during which the [ gallery was cleared, was negatived on* „| motion by Mr. Carlyon, seconded by Mr. ■ » • ■<• Sutton, that the Bill be read this dayjux months. Ayes, Messrs.^ennedy, W&? L ton, Sutton, Carlyon, and ParsonsjW^ Messrs. A'Deane, Buchanan, Tanner, ana Lambert. ■'■ .i . : \\ ■""."' y- --i-3*