PROVINCIAL COUNCIL.

Hawke's Bay Herald, Volume 12, Issue 885, 19 October 1867, Page 2

PROVINCIAL COUNCIL.

MONDAY, OCTOBER 14. The Speakee took the chair at 3 o'clock. Present, all the members but Messrs. Tanner, Whitmore, and Lambert. The minutes of the previous sitting were read and confirmed. Steam io Wairoa. The following motion lapsed, the mover not being present : — That the Superintendent be requested to place the sum of £600 for the next 12 months on the estimates for a fortnightly steam service to Wairoa. It was, however, subsequently moved in committee of supply. Sheep Branding Bill. Mr. Carlton, in the absence of Mr.' Tanner, moved that this Bill be discharged from the order paper. Leave granted, and Bill discharged accordingly. Payment of Country Members. Mr. Buchanan said though he was not in order in the motion he was about to make, still as it concerned the honor of . some hon. gentlemen, he trusted the informality would be overlooked ; and that he would be allowed to move, without the usual notice, that it be an instruction to the committee to make no provision for payment to country members. The question was put whether the standing rules be suspended with the view of such notice being given for that day. It was negatived on the following division : — Ayes— 3. Nous— il. Messrs. Buchanan, Messrs. Ormond, Kennedy, Rhodes,) Locke. M'Lean, Parsons, Wood, Dolbel, Weston, Sutton, Carlyon, A'Deane, Irvine. Mr. Buchanan gave notice of motion for the following day. Petition against the Toll-gate. Mr. Wood moved that the petition of the inhabitants of Napier against the Toll-gate be considered. He said though the petition purported to be signed by 92 electors, the number was really 91 — one signature being that of a non-elector — which was a large . proportion out of 140 possible voters. It was a very strong protest, and he understood an equally strong one had been prepared by the Meanee settlers, though it had not been presented in form. He hoped the Council would reconsider the decision it had come to with reference to tolls, seeing that the two most important constituencies in the province, ancl those most deeply interested, appealed against them. He would move as follows : — That this Council, having considered the petition of certain electors ot the Town of Napier, is of opinion that the consideration of the Toll-gate Bill should be deferred till next session. Mr. Buchanan seconded the motion. The Speaker said the member for Havelock must give notice of his motion. , Mr. Wood had thought it would be more business-like if, in considering the petition, they hact a motion before them. The Speaker said the motion had direct reference to the Toll-gate Bill ; notice must be given. Mr. Buchanan wished the Speaker to instruct the Council how to proceed with the consideration of the petition. He submitted that the acceptance of the member JflrHavclock's motion was the onlyjv&yout of tne aimcuity. ' Mr. Wood altered the words in his motion from " Toll-gate Bill," to " consideration of the subject of tolls." This also was ruled to be out of order. The question was then put, " that the petition be considered," with the following result : — Ayes— l2. I Noes— 2. Messrs. Kennedy, | Messrs. Carlyon, Rhodes, Weston. Ormond, M'Lean, Parsons, Wood, Sutton, .. Irvine, Buchanan, Locke, Dolbel, A'Deane. Petition ordered to be considered. A long silence ensued. Somo discussion ensued as to the length of time to be allowed for consideration of the petition. Mr. Buchanan maintained there could !be no limit assigned. It did not follow ! that the consideration of the petition should consist in speaking. Members might prefer silent consideration. (Laughter). Another pause having ensued — Mr. Ormond said the word "forthwith" should have been inserted in the -motion. He supposed the object' ofthe hon. member (Mr. Wood) was to have the petition brought prominently before the notice of members. He submitted that the object had been already gained. Mr. Wood then moved the following, which he did in the subjoined shape to meet the ruling of the Speaker : — That this Counoil, having bad under consideration the petition of certain e.ectors of the Town of Napier, is of opinion that, in lieu of tolls, such other tax should be substituted as may be calculated to effect the objeot in view without pressing unduly or injuriously upon one section of the community. The Speaker saw nothing to hinder him from putting the motion to the Council. ' Mr. A'Deane rose to order. The motion would be more in order in committee on the Toll-gate Bill ; it was taking the Council by surprise. Mr. Wood said tho course he was taking was based upon what lie had seen done in that Council scores of times. He could show precedents without number. (Hear, hear.) Mr. Ormond said the Government would not accept the motion, if passed, as any indication of the opinion of the Council. The Speaker put the motion, which was carried on the voices. Te Aute Road. Mr. Wood pursuant to notice-, moved, — That His Honor the Superintendent be requested to furnish the Council with a return shewing the amount expended upon the Te Aute road, from the timeof the first Superin-* tendency to tho present date. —His object" was to strengthen the pra3 r er of the petitioners by shewing the enormous sums that had been spent upon a road which it was proposed to leave untaxed, in comparison with the nominal sum expended upon one which it was intended to tax heavily. , Mr. M'Lean said there was no objection on the part of the Government. The return had been prepared, which he would at once lay on the table. [Thc return showed that upwards of £36,000 had been spent upon tho Te Auto road.] Committee on Standing Rules and Orders. Mr. A'Deane, as chairman of the select committee on the standing rides, woidd ask for an extension of timo to bring up the report. Late events had shown howcareful tho committee must be in the execution of their tusk. They had sat some timo already, aud wore to sit again to-morrow, aud he asked leave to defer bringing up the report till Wednesday. j Leave granted.

Road through 70- Mile Bush. \ In the absence of Major Lambert, who was to bring up the following report :-r Report of Seleot Committee On the survey of road through 70 mile Bush,-*- - Mr. Buchanan asked permission to postpone it until next day.. Leave granted, v " ..- — -:•;.-; Committee of Supply. : / 7 The House then went into Committee- „,, of Supply. - The Chairman put the first item—Superintendent's Clerk, at £300, £200. Mr. Buchanan said before they went, any further with the estimates he wished to know what course would be taken with respect to payment of country members.-. When he had read the notice to the Council he had stated his desire of haying the matter discussed in a full House, and although he was not desirous of offering anything like a determined opposition to the estimates, they would not proceed very rapidly with the votes until he conld bring the motion forward. Mr. M'Lean would not object to the item, " payment of country members " being postponed until Mr. Buchanan'smotion came on. The item of £200 was then carried. Contingencies, £16 13s. 4d. ; carried. Total, Superintendent's Department, £566 13s. 4d. ; carried. Provincial Auditor, at £150, £100. Mr. Buchanan said this item should he included among the permanent charges. It was fixed by an Act of the General Assembly which that Council conld not alter. Mr. Caklyon raised several objections to this item, wishing to know distinctly if the Governor had fixed the amount. The item was ultimately carried. Deputy Auditor, £13 6s. Bd. ; carried. Contingencies, £6 13s. 4d. Mr. Caklyon could not understand the. last item ; such matters should come Out of the Provincial Auditor's pocket. Mr. M'Lean explained that it was for books &c. for use of the Provincial Auditor. Item carried. Total, Audit Department, £120; carried. Law Officer's Department — Provincial Solicitor, at £150, £100. This item was put and carried ; but Mr. Carlyon moved that it be recommitted. He contended that the Provincial Solicitor . should have a seat in that Council, and wished- to know whether he gave advice to the Government as Law Officer of the Province or as the private solicitor to the Government. He pointed out an instance which occurred at Wellington^ in s IBSB, when Dr. Featherston, the Superintendent, dispensed with the services of Mr. Wakefield as Provincial Solicitor, because he was unable to get a seat in the Council. He (Mr. Carlyon) wanted the Provincial Solicitor, if he kept out of that Council, to be paid by fees, and not by salary. _ Mr. A'Deane suggested that the item be postponed. Mr. M'Lean said theProvincial Solicitor did a great deal of work, and the system of fees would be found more costly than a salary. Mr. Caelyon's motion, that the 'item be re-committed, was put, and lost on the ' following division : — Atks-3. Noes— il. Mesri_s. Carlyon, Messrs. M'Lean, Weston, Ormond, Buchanan. . Rhodes, Kennedy, Parsons,_v. Wood, Sutton, Dolbel, Irvine, Locke, . - A'Deane. ___Lf__.der the head of Provincial C.vi.t..ml,_--the item of £300, payment to country members, was postponed; Messenger, £110. Carried. The following were passed: — Council Newspaper and Library, £20 i. Contingencies^ £13 6s. Bd. ; Printing. Mf?* nutes and Acts of Hawke's Bay, £100. Supreme and District Courts, £40. Sheriff's Department — Gaoler andWarden, at £175 per annum, £116. 135. 4d. ;. 1 Turnkey, at £115 per aunum, £76 13s. 4d. ; 1 Turnkey, at £110 per annum, £73 6s. Bd. ; occasional Turnkey, at £55 Eer annum, £36 13s. 4d. ; 1 Overseer ard labor prisoners, at i.llO per annum, £73 6s. Bd. ; Eations for prisoners, £280 ; Contingencies, £100 ; total, Sheriff's Department, £756 13s. 4d. Mr. Buchanan asked if the Government could give the number of prisoners in the gaol. Mr. M'Lean said he could not bepositive; but he believed the number to be from 16 to 20. Coroner's Department—Contingencies,. £6 13s. 4d. Carried. Police Department — Inspector, at £200' per annum, £133 6s. Bd. ; 1 Sergeant, at £140 per annum, £93 6s. Bd. ; 3 Privates,, at £110 per annum, £220. Carried. Clive— District Constable, at £60 per annum, £33 6s. Bd. Mr. Buchanan could not see the neces** sity for this item. Mr. M'Lean said there was a court held at Clive, and the constable was necessary to serve summons', &c. Item carried. Waipawa — 1 Corporal, at £122 per annum, £81 6s. Bd. Mr. A'Deane drew attention to the importance of this district, and the necessity for another policeman there. The one at present located there had often to go to Havelock and Porangahau, and sometimes to the confines ofthe province. He hoped the member for Te Aute (Mr. Carlyon) would support him in the motion. Mr. Caklyon thought the. member for Hampden had hardly stated the case strong enough. One thing, however, he decidedly objected to. The policeman in that district was not confined to his- salary ; he appropriatedthomileage fees, which represented about £150 per annum. The district required two policemen at a small salary. Mr. Ehodes said that in the Wairoa the amount had been divided and given to two policemen instead of one. There would be no objection to the same course being taken in this case. Mr. M'Lean said there had been a dis-. cussion on this subject last sitting, and it had been proposed to have a district constable besides a policeman. He would be glad to hear the opinions of members from that part of the country, who were undoubtedly best qualified to judge what was required. Mr. Tiffen thought 6s a day was enough for a policeman. Mr. A'Deane said it was a very responsible position, and a disagreeable one ; he would prefer the items of policeman and district constable remaining as they were, sooner than reduce the policeman's salary. After some further discussion the item was passed, with the understanding that a . future motion be made for an increase in number. Wairoa, 1 native constable, at £60, £40. Mr. Carlyon objected to this item. He believed it was iar too large a sum to. pay a native. If he was a native he would take it himself. (Laughter.) Mr. M'Lean altered the item to £50. Carried. Wairoa, 1 special constable, at £50, .. £33 6s. Bd. ; Mr. Caklyon objected to this item. He wanted to know the speciality, and the particular object of the Government in looking so well after- a district only re- " turning one member, when there were two other districts represented in the. Council ■ returning two. and five members.

9 '• Mr. M'Lean said a large reduction had been made in the Wairoa estimates. There, was a large native population — . some. 2000— there. , . Mr. Carlyon said he was satisfied. Item carried. „ Porangahau, district constable, at £50, £33 6s. Bd. Mr. -M'Lean having stated that this item had been on the estimates but never expended, it was struck out, on the motion -of Mr. Buchanan. Mohaka, 1 district constable at £40, £26 13s. 4d. * ' Mr. Caklyon could not see what was wanted with a constable at Mohaka. It was at the rate of £40 for every criminal he arrested. Mr. M'Lean said the constable had several duties to perform. A Court was held there, and there were also several Government stores there, of which he had charge. Item carried. " Meanee-*~District Constable, at £50 per annum, £33 6s. Bd. Mr. Caklyon said the Meanee district was a large ohe, and there were several justices of the peace there who could swear in special constables on an emergency. He would move that the item be omitted. There was no lock-up there. Mr. Ehodes said there was a lock-up there. . ' ■ ' Mr. Buchanan said the same argument would apply here that had been used respecting the Wairoa district — there was a large native population. Mr. M'Lean said a great reduction had been made in the police estimates generally, and hoped the hon. member would not press his motion. . On a division being taken on Mr. Carlyon's amendment, that gentleman was ' tne only ohe who voted for it ; the motion was consequently lost. Horse allowance for Inspector, at £52 - per annum, £34 i3s. 4d. ; horse allowance for Police Constable at Waipawa, at £36 per annum, £24. Carried. Special Constables, £26 13s. 4d. Mr. Carlyon wished to know what this charge was for. Mr. M'Lean explained that extra constables were required during the races, and when extra assistance was required at the gaol, as a reduction had been made in the Gaol Department*. This amount was struck out. Eations for. Prisoners, £33 6s. Bd. ; Expenses, for Prisoners, £23 6s. Bd. Carried. Contingencies, £40. Mr. Carlyon ' wanted to know what this item meant. Mr. Ehodes said it was necessary to have the sum voted. If it was not required it would not be spent. Item carried. 6 Policemen (1 month), £56; Wairoa— 1 Native Policeman, £5 Bs. 4d.; Waipawa — horse allowance for Policeman, £3 ; Clive — horse allowance for Policeman, £1 5s — all items expende'd already. Agreed to. Mr, A'Deane moved that the total of the police department be postponed. Agreed, to, and the Council 1 adjourned until half-past seven. The Council met again at half-past seven! Hospital — Provincial Surgeon at £150, £100 ; Hospital attendants at £100, £76 13s 4d ; rations for patients, £120 ; Hospital furniture, £20 ; Charitable aid, £133 6s. Bd. ; Contingencies, £46 13s. 4d. — Agreed to. Major Lambert said he thought those persons in the hospital who had friends able to contribute towards their maintenance ought to be assisted by them. In England, soldiers in hospital who were_ . in receipt of a pension had two-thirds of itdeducted.. . Harbor-Master and Pilot at £250, £166 13s 4d ; " Assistant Pilot at £144, £96 ; two boatmen, at 6s 6d per diem, £160 ; carried. • $ Extra boatmen, when required, £16 13s £4iL._.. » Major Lambert inquired if this item was absolutely necessary. Mr. Kennedy explained that occasions occurred when two men were not sufficient to man the pilot boat. Item carried. Contingencies, £50. Mr. Sutton moved that £50 be placed on the estimates for a signal-man at Barrack Hill.- He said that a good look-out .was necessary. Eecently the Storm Bird had required a pilot before she* was known to be in the harbor. • Mr . M'Lean said as the boatmen were not fully employed one of them could be engaged in this duty without extra expense. Major»LAMBEET wished to know what the item of £50 for contingencies was for". Mr. M'Lean explained for blocks,, pulleys, hose, &c. Item carried. Wairoa Pilot, at £50, £33 6s 8d ; carried. Hire of boatmen when required, £40. Mr. Buchanan moved the insertion of the words " at Wairoa," so that the item .' would read, " Hire of Boatmen when required at Wairoa." Item carried as amended. Contingencies, £13 6s Bd. Major Lambert had the greatest possible objection to these contingencies, which occurred in every department. — Item nltimatelv agreed to. Inspector of Sheep, also Inspector of Slaughter Houses; also Eegistrar of Brands, at £250, £166 13s 4d. Mr. Carlyon said it might be too late when this item was passed to draw the attention of the Council to the one following it. If the Inspector had to go round periodically and examine the flocks,, he could understand it, but in his own experience of eight years he had never known that officer to call but once and that was to dun him for a private debt (Laughter.) He wanted to know what this expenditure was for, and the work done for it. Mr. Ormond explained that though the Inspector was not required to annoy persons whose flocks were considered sound, it was his duty to inspect flocks where a suspicion of disease existed. He had also other duties which occupied a great deal of his time, and the Government proposed to make him Inspector of Slaughterhouses, without additional remuneration. Mr. Carlyon said the explanation was not satisfactory. The sum proposed, if . the Inspector did all the work of the pro*** vince, was not too great, but who was the said Inspector ? Mr. Irvine rose — ' Mr. Carlyon: Are you the man? (Laughter.) Mr. Irvine understood the appointment had been made. ' Mr. Ormond said no person had been yet appointed ; though it had been offered to the former Inspector of the other districts, Mr. P. Tiffen. Mr. Carlyon moved that the item be expunged. Mr. Ormond hoped the hon. member would not press . his motion. The flockmasters paid this salary" by the tax of one farthiDg per head* and if this officer was removed, they were subject any moment to serious damage heing done. By the new.'.-, arrangements, the Sub Inspector -woiil^ have to be at work every day. '' : . After further discussion, this, and the following item, Snb^lnspector, £150, £100, ';.'. were 'parried; the understanding that .. "'ffi^la^i-JofficeriwhsftofTeside^in' -Napier, - '"'of wJLtjjin o ; 6'mile9]ol it/'', Examiningln- ■'& shec^^^ £&Istoej at $20, £13. 6s. Bd;> Repairing

Stock-yards, dipping, and contingencies, £43 6s. Bd. ; carried. Total, Inspector of Sheep Department, £323 6s. Bd.; carried.. Eeceiver of Land Eevenue Department, Contingencies, £4; carried. Eeturning Officer's Department, Contingencies, £26 IBs. 4d~; carried. * Meteorological Department, Eegistrar of Meteorology, at £50, £33 6s. Bd. Mr. Carlyon objected to this item, on the ground of uselessness, Mr. Buchanan said he knew the reason for the item being kept on the estimates, but would like to hear something from the Government on the subject. . Mr. M'Lean said it was done at the request of the General Government, who sent home tabulated statistics of the weather throughout' the colony. He thought he might get the duty performed without salary. .Mr. Buchanan said it was a practice followed throughout Australia, and might prove of great value to scientific men in England. Mr. Caklyon said that the difference in the thermometer between Napier and other parts of tho province sometimes amounted to 30 degrees (Laughter.) A meteorological station in the town was no criterion. The item was struck out. Contingencies, £4. Mr. M'Lean said this item was necessary in any case. Carried. Bonus to ferry at Waihua, £16 13s. 4d. ; ditto at Waikari, £3 6s. Bd. ; ditto at Mohaka,. £16 13s. 4d. ; ditto at Wairoa (June quarter) £5 ; total, £41 13s. 4d. Carried. Government Offices, coal, firewood, &c, £33 6s. Bds . Carried; General Printing, £100. Carried. General Advertising, £100. _ Mr. Carlyon objected to this item. Mr. M'Lean said it was necessary that when tenders are required for contracts, or anything of that sort, people .should have- an opportunity of knowing the fact. Complaints had been made before when the item was reduced. Item carried. Mr. Tiffen asked for the petition of Mr. Ashton to be taken into consideration. Mr. Ehodes said the usual way was for the petitioner to appoint one arbitrator, and the Government another, who would settle it between them.' Some discussion ensued on this petition, which was eventually left in the hands of the Government, pending a report from the Provincial Engineer. Insurance on Government Buildings, £88. Major Lambert pointed out the necessity of all Government buildings and schools being insured. Mr. M'Lean said the Government only occupied the position of one trustee out of three in the schools. It would be necessary for the other trustees to take action. Item carried. ' Eegistrar of Dogs Nuisance — Contin*** gencies, £2. Carried. Penitentiary Contingencies, £13 6s. Bd. •Mr. Caklyon inquired the meaning of this item. . Mr. M'Lean explained that there were 'several prisoners confined in the gaol for life, and this item was for materials for their employment. Item carried. Weighing Machine — Contingencies, £3 6s. Bd, Carried. -Miscellaneous Contingencies, £333 6s. Bd. Mr. Carlyon inquired if that item had anything to do with the Provincial Solicitor. (Laughter). He would ask on what basis it was calculated. Was any of it going up the country, to Waipawa or in that distriot ; and what was the 6s. Bd. for. Mr. Tanner woidd like to hear something about the £333 as well as the 6s. Bd. Mr. M'Lean said the matter hardly required explanation. The item extended over every transaction which arose in the province. The Government must have some latitude allowed them. There were many disbursements which could not be foreseen so as to be specially provided for. All this expenditure was afterwards referred to the Audit Committee. Major Lambert was sorry the Government should spend money unauthorisedly. He was greatly opposed to unauthorised expenditure. Mr. Buchanan, said this was another " bete noir" of his, to which he had always had an objection. He had endeavoured on former occasions to reduce it, but had met with no support hitherto ; and that objection applied with greater force than ever now, in consequence of the passing of the Audit Act, which authorised the Government to expend only one-twentieth of the nett revenue. Mr. M'Lean said the hon. gentleman was' himself on the Audit Committee, and could see what was done with the money. Item carried. Council Chamber, furnishing £20 ; carried. Eefund part of License Fee to Beukers, Western Spit, £15. - Major Lambert wished for an explanation of this item. Mr. M'Lean said that it was given as an inducement to continue the ferry, which was of great advantage to the settlers who lived on the other side of the Spit. Mr. Ehodes said although the public house was really in the town, it was to all intents a bush house, and should have a license at the cost of a bush license. Mr. Parsons agreed with the last speaker, and said he believed if half the amount of the license fee was not taken off, Mr. Beukers would give up his license. Mr. McLean said it was legally necessary to charge the full license, but the matter might be left to the government. Item carried. Subsidy to a line of Coaches, £400. Mr. Carlyon asked if they were to carry the mails. Mr. McLean replied in the affirmative. Item carried. Colonel Whitmore inquired whether a subsidy would be given for steam communication to Wairoa. Mr. McLean said nothing would give the government more pleasure than to support such a motion. The Wairoa district had many claims on Government. Colonel Whitmore moved that a sum not exceeding £600 be placed on the estimates for the purpose of steam communication with the Wairoa. Mr. Ehodes cordially agreed with the motion. Major Lambert would support the motion, 'but would be sorry if the matter fell into the hands of the N.Z.S.N. Co. The traffic should be carried on by a boat owned in the place. Mr. M'Lean said the N.Z.S.N. Co. had no boat suitable for the purpose. It would be necessary to build or buy one. He moved that " £400 for steam service to Wairoa," be inserted. Mr. Buchanan did not think the vote would be taken up. Item carried. Permanent charges — Interest Loan, 1856, £1620. *„.. Mr. A'Deane wished to know the nature of this item. Mr. M'Lean said it was the interest on the half-million loan of 1856, of which the province had had something liko £30,000 for land purchases. It was an annual charge. Auckland, Wellington, Taranaki and Hawke 's Bay, each had a portion set apart, pa'yable when the Colonial Trea- . surer demanded it. That officer generally

I ook good care io pay himself. Item carried. Interest on Wellington Debt, £2500. Carried. Interest on Loan to June 30, 1868, £2470 6s. Bd. Mr. M'Lean explained this was the interest on £60,000 provincial loan of Hawke's Bay. Item carried. Total Permaneat charges £6490 6s. Bd. carried. Mr. McLean said he had a copy of the Public Debts Act, which he should be glad to allow members to peruse. One of its provisions was that the loan was to be raised at a rate aot exceeding 7 per cent. He would lay it on the table along with the other financial measures ofthe General Government. Mr. Wood inquired if any progress had been made towards the adjustment ot the Wellington Debt. Mr. Mc Lean replied that it stood just as it had been before. It haid been saddled upon them by a resolution of the House of Representatives, and they had not a sufficient number of members in thc General Assembly to get a reduction of the debt. The only other course was to refer the matter to the Supreme Court or some other tribunal, and in many respects this was an undesirable course. Colonel Whitmore enquired how long it would, be before the debt was extinguished by its own sinking fnnd. Mr. M'Lean said a loan of the kind had fallen due in Wellington, and was repaid by another loan. (Laughter). He could not tell the exact period. The province was interested in two other loans, which had some years to run yet. Major Lambert inquired whether anything was being done m the matter of this debt. Mr. M'Lean said that eight months ago several meetings had been held by the Commissioners from this and the Wellington Council. Wellington then refused to make any concession. The Hawke's Bay Commissioners had offered a certain sum to get rid ofthe liability, but Wellington would not agree to the terms. After some further discussion, the item was carried. Commissioner of Crown Lands, also Provincial Treasurer, at £350 per annum, £233 6s. Bd. Carried. Preparation of Crown Grants, &c, £133 6s. Bd. Major Lambert said he would be infavor of adding this amount tb the salary of the Commissioner of Crown Lands, who would provide what clerical assistance was required. . Mr. Buchanan thought it would be a good plan to contract for ali the public departments in that manner; Let them he put up to tender at once. Mr. M'Lean suggested that the Government should use their discretion in the matter. Mr. Buchanan would be glad to hear an explanation of the increase of the item. Mr. M'Lean replied that the only difference between this and last year was £33 6s. Bd. for clerical assistance. Item carried. Total Crown Lands and Treasury, £366 13s 4d, carried. Educational — Inspector, £33 6s 8d ; Grants in aid of school buildings, £400 ; Grants in aid of schools, £500 ; carried. Napier Grammar School, £66 13s 4d. Mr. Carlyon wanted to know whether the Government intended to subsidize the Napier Grammar School, or if it was only a grant for the present year. Major Lambert would oppose the item ; and trusted the Government would not press it. In most cases lio was disposed to go some length to support the Government if they had given a pledge, but in this case he could not. He regretted very much to see such an item put on the estimates. If the proprietor could not attend to his scholars for £50, he must charge £55. It was radically wrong for him to come to that Council and ask for assistance. Let those who require the school provide for it, and pay for it. It was the duty of that Council to assist in the education of the indigent, but it was the boundCn duty of all who could pay for their children's education to do so. If it was put to the vote he should request all those interested to withdraw. Mr. M'Lean said the item would not be brought forward again ; and he trusted the Council would not oppose the present vote. Mr. Tanner believed it had always been the intention of the Government to set aside a sum for a Grammar School. This school was open to all denominations — all denominations were represented there, and as the master had gone to considerable expense to secure the best possible assistance in tuition, the Council should support such a laudable object. Mr. A'Deane would- support the vote on the understanding that it was to be a final one. Mr. Sutton objected to the vote. He could not see why they were called on to vote money for such a purpose. The master charged the full rate of fees, and there was a large revenue derived from the school. Mr. McLean said th-) Government was in a measure pledged to pay a particular amount, of which that item formed a portion. Mr. Caklyon wished to know if the master had received any actual pledge from the Government. Mr. Tiffen would vote for the item, because he considered the Council had pledged itself at the last sitting. Colonel Whitmore said no pledge had been given by the Council. Mr. Tanner could not recollect any decided pledge, but it had been tacitly understood. He thought the Government had given Mr. Marshall some reason to believe he would receive aid if he procured assistance in tuition from Auckland. A Government officer was present at the last examination. Major Lambekt never heard of a private school getting any allowance of this sort ; and if the proprietor chose to keep young gentlemen at a rate that did not remunerate him, he must be a great muff. (Laughter). Looking at it in a business sort of way, he had no fear for the rising generation without that £66. They would be ashamed of it. If any member of the Government had made any promise in his ' private capacity, it was nothing ; but if the Government had made a promise, he would vote for it. Mr. Tanner said it was a question of common sense. The best schools in England had received extraneous aid. The youth of the province would materially suffer if no aid was given. Mr. M'Lean said the Government left the matter in the hands of the committee. Very possibly the person interested in the matter might have inferred that in getting a portion of the vote, he might rely upon receiving the remainder, up to the end of the year ; and great loss and inconvenience might arise from its stoppage. The vote was not going to be renewed ; aud the Government would take it upon themselves to see that the money was properly spent. Major Lambert hoped this would be a lesson to the Government not to make such pledges. What right had they to ask thc public to put their hands in their pockets, to pay for the education of these gentlemen's sons? He would withdraw his motion. Item carried. The Chairman reported progress, and

the Council adjourned at half-past ten o'clock. TUESDAY, OCTOBER 15. The Speaker took the chair at 3 o'clock. The minutes of the previous sitting were read and confirmed. Papers, The Superintendent laid on the table several letters respecting negotiations.with the Bank of New Zealand, and moved that the same be printed; Carried. Public Debts Act. Mr. M'Lean laid on the table a copy of the Public Debts Act, and an Act to authorise the £7,000,000 loan ; also an Act regulating the receipts and expenditure of the colony. Payment of Country Members. Mr. Buchanan, pursuant to notice, moved: — That it be an instruction to the Committee of Supply to make no provision for the payment of couutry members. - — He said it would bo well to trace the history of this matter. _ At the last sitting of that Council, this item did not. appear on the estimates when originally submitted to the Council. The reason for this was matter of public report. It was broadly asserted that the item was left out purposely, to be .used by the Government as a means of. coercion. He did not know how for this might be true,; he gave it as it was told to him, thaft such was the object they had in view in leaving the sum out of the estimates. He had been told that a particular gentleman opposite was liable for that charge — that in his rough and ready way he had thought it the best and speediest remedy he could apply to gentlemen who threatened, to take opposite sides to the Government. He did not know if he accused the hon. gentleman wrongfully, but he had been told this. He had heard from more than one member of that House that such was the case — whether it was a fitting course or not he need not say. However, the Superintendent adopted it, and gave gave it nis sanction and fiat, and therefore no sum was placed on the estimates for tho payment of country members. Subsequently, on a motion made by the member for Waipukurau (Major Lambert) a sum was placed on the estimates, and no comment made. Now the taunt had become an individual one ; he (Mr. Buchanan) had been charged witli trying to keep this small modicum for a few days longer. He would say nothing of the good taste displayed in this remark, but he did not choose to sit thero and bo exposed to such pitiful taunts. He would do all he could to strike the sum off the estimates. In no other colony in these seas was such an allowance made. Mr. Oemond : How about Melbourne. Mr. Buchanan : Such an allowance was not made in Melbourne. He would admit he had seen the evil of its not being made, but at present New Zealand was the only colony that had adopted it. He believed the amount paid in this province was the lowest paid in any province in the colony ' — considerably less than that paid in the province of Canterbury ; but, seeing that we had not such men here as that province possessed, there was less necessity for this sum remaining on the estimates. Mr. Looke seconded the motion " pro forma." Mr. Carlyon said that the hon. member (Mr. Buchanan) did not believe in the principle of the motion he had made, but was bringing it forward in consequence of the late passage of arms in which he had got rather tho worst. .. He (Mr. Carlyon) had a graver principle to contest with him. He could distinctly recollect Mr. Gladstone saying in the House of Commons that he hoped the principle of the Australian colonies would not be adopted inthat House, of members voting money for themselves. There was a great difference between Australia and a sparsely populated country such as this, where it was difficult to get the best men to come forward — sacrificing their interests by doing so. The sitting of the Council was held at the busiest' portion of the year for the majority of members ; if the time of sitting could be altered, he should not so much object ; but, considering the loss members sustained by being absent from their homes, he, would oppose the motion. Mr. Tanner said the hon. member (Mr. Buchanan) did not say one word against the principle, but rather in favor of it. He had considered the observation made by the member for Porangahau the other night as unworthy of him ; and he believed all who heard it were sorry to hear, such a remark made. The hon. member (Mr. Buchanan should trest such a remark — let fall in the heat of the moment — with the contempt it deserved. It would have shewn more dignity to have taken no notice of it. Things were often said during the heat of debate which in cooler moments no attempt would be made to substantiate. He hoped the hon. member would not press his resolution. He did not think anyone "in that Council would believe the insinuation. He (Mr. Tanner) had heard something which led him to believe that Mr. Buchanan had felt himself justified in the strenuous opposition he had made to the Toll-gate Bill ; namely, that the petition was in preparation, and that he wanted | time for its presentation. At the same time, he believed that when the member for Porangahau spoke, that gentleman believed Mr. Buchanan to have had no legitimate grounds for the opposition he had shewn. Colonel Whitmore hoped the member for Porangahau would express his regret at having made use of the expression, which seemed to have rankled in the mind ofthe hon. member (Mr. Buchanan.) As regarded Australia he had no wish to take that country as a precedent.' The people in this province were as good as the people in Australia ; and he hoped a few degrees better. It was not long ago since the Lower House inMelbourne voted themselves £500 per annum, though it was afterwards disallowed by the Upper House. He had been told so by Mr. Blackwood, a member of an eminent Melbourne firm. He trusted thehon. member (Mr. Buchanan) wouldnot for a moment imagine that he believed the assertion that had been made, though he should oppose tho motion. Mr. Ormond did not originally intencl to say anything on this subject, but he had been directly appealed to. The words he had used were — following the example set him by the member for Te Aute (Mr. Tanner) — introduced by the common remark — that "they were said outside." (Laughter.) A few days since, when the member for Te Aute had said that certain things were said outside about him (Mr. Ormond.) Mr. Buchanan had said " that if he knew anything against him, he was the man to have told him of it long ago." He could only account for this by thinking the hon. gentleman must have been living in a place where information was acquired very slowly. In asking him to withdraw what he had said, hon. gentlemen were scarcely considerate to him. They should remember the strong assertions that had been made with regard to himself— the charges of corruption and what not that had been advanced. Where the hon. member had got the statement that the Government had withheld ;the vote as a means of threatening

country members he did not know, but the Government distinctly repudiated any such intention. He did not think tho hon. member was at all inclined to push his motion very much. Mr. A'Deane regretted this discussion had taken place at all. The hon. member (Mr. Buchanan) had secured to himself the right of reply, with his usual mastery of fence and debate. It would have been more discreet and courteous if the seconder (Mr. Locke) had allowed the motion to die a natural death. He could not, however, be surprised that the mover had taken the only course open to him of repudiating the statementsof tho member for Porangahau. For his own part, he was more inclined to move that the sum be increased than struck off. Mr. Buchanan, in reply, said he had distinctly stated that he brought his motion forward in defence of the honor of gentlemen around ; if they thought they were not exposed to the imputation, well and good. Seeing that such was the case, probably the better course would be to withdraw the motion ; but as this was not a motion for cutting down Government officials' salaries, some members, the town members in particular, could give an unbiassed vote. The motion was put and lost. Road through 70-Mile Bush. Major Lambert brought up the report of the select committee on the road through the 40-Mile Bush. The report was read. [We shall give this, along with other Council papers, at an early opportunity.] Major Lambert moved that the report be printed. Mr. M'Lean objected, on the ground that no object would be gained by printing it. After some discussion, Mr. M'Lean agreed to the report being printed, and the motion was affirmed. Horse Nuisance Bill. Colonel Whitmore, pursuant to notice, moved, — The second reading of the Horse Nuisance Bill. — He said he was not sure it was correct as far as the drawing of it went. He had brought it forward more with the object of inviting suggestions on the matter from gentlemen perhaps more capable than himself. According to the "Impounding Act," passed last session, if horses did not realise the amount for which they were impounded, the impounder was liable for the balance. This Act proposed to remedy that injustice, by providing for the destruction of horses (and their number was legion) which were not worth the impounding fees. The method of branding proposed, as a protection to owners, was the same that he had successfully employed in Austria, when purchasing horses for the British Government. He would not feel mortified if the bill should be thought unworkable. Every settler felt this horse nuisance, and he hoped the bill would, at least, be suggestive of some remedy for it. Mr. Carlyon wished to know whether the hon. member had been in communication with the Provincial • Solicitor on the subject. Colonel Whitmore said that gentleman had glanced over a draft of the bill ; but he (Colonel Whitmore) was responsible for it. Mr. Carlyon : Of course you are ; he is not responsible for anything. After some discussion, the bill was withdrawn. Committee of Supply. . The House went into Committee of Supply. The following items were passed without discussion : — Survey Department : — 1 Surveyor, at £336 por annum, £224 ; 1 Assistant, at £250 per annum, £166 13s. 4d. ; 1 Draughtsman, at £300 per annum, £200 ; travelling allowance for 2 Surveyors, at £36, £48 ; contract surveys, £100 ; laborers, £400 ; contingencies, £32. Provincial Engineer's Department: — Provincial Engineer and Chief Provincial Surveyor, at £400 per annum, £266 135. . 4d. ; travelling allowance to Provincial Engineer, at £100 per annum, £66 13s. 4d. ; Clerk to Provincial Engineer, at £200 per annum, £133 6s. Bd. ; contingencies, £32. - Under the head of Public Works and Undertakings the following items were passed : — Meanee Lock-up, £4 155. ; Planting Government Eeserve, £10; repairs and maintenance of Public Buildings, £100. On the item " Public Wells and Pumps, inclusive of contributions towards Artesian Wells, £84 ;" being put, Mr. Locke moved that this item be increased to £150 ; but the Chairman ruling that this was out of order, notice was given for next day, and the item, meanwhile, postponed. , The following were passed without remark : — Protecting Eastern Spit, £50 ; rent Post Office, Napier, £16 13s. 4d. ; Harbour, buoys and moorings, £110. On the item, " Shifting Fences on Puketapu Block, £120," being put, Mr. M'Lean, in reply to Mr. Buchanan, said the people of this district had only recently agreed to come to a settlement of this vexed question; and the fencing would be shifted so as to meet the arrangement come to. Colonel Whitmore, as one of the parties concerned, knew nothing of any arrangement — had not heard of it. He had a strong objection to losing some five miles of land. Mr. Buchanan moved that the item be left out of the estimates. That would perhaps tend to bring the matter to a final settlement. Mr. Buchanan's motion was put and lost ; and the item carried. Compensation for road to Pekapeka, through Messrs. Breingan, Bignell, and Smith's properties, £250. Mr. Tanner would like to know how this claim had arisen. Mr. Ormond said that last session the Council had voted £170 for this road, which was absolutely necessary. No law then existed by which land could be taken compulsorily. The Provincial Engineer believed he could now settle the matter for this amount. Item carried. Public Slaughter Yards, £250. Mr. Buchanan said the Bill had not yet passed. He would move that the item be postponed. Postponed accordingly. The next item — Expenditure connected with Toll-bar, £250 — postponed. Public Fences, £25. Major Lambert asked for this item to be postponed, which was done, there being some uncertainty as to the precise object of it. Lock-up on Eastern Spit, £30 ; Jetty at Clyde (Wairoa), £60. Carried. ' Militia and Volunteers' Eifle Practice, £50. Mr. Kennedy explained that it was intended to divide this amount into district prizes— £2o for Waipawa, £20 for Napier, and £10 for Wairoa, at the discretion of the commanding officer. Item carried. Shifting Fence in Taipo Eoad, compensation to Mr. Alley for, £70 — carried. Mr. A'Deane moved the consideration of the item — payment to country members, at 12s. 6U per day, £300.

Mr. Buchanan moved that the item be omitted. On the following division, the amendment was lost :— Noes— ls. Ayes- 2. Messrs. Rhodes, Messrs. Buchanan, M'Lean, Locke. Ormond, Kennedy, Inirfß, 'Whitmore, Lambert, '« Weston, A'Deane, Carlyon, Parsons, Dolbel, Wood, Sutton, Tanner. Under the head Eoads and Bridges, the first item was Town Eoads, £280. Major Lambert wished to know what this item meant. Mr. Ormond explained that it was for the White Eoad, Milton Eoad, and Car-lyle-street, which were regarded as main lines. Colonel Whitmore did not like to object to the town roads, but Town Boards should not be delayed because the Highways Act was not ready. Town Boards should not be dependant on the Highways Act. Mr. Buchanan moved that the chairman report progress. He had heard nothing yet about Ways and Means. Before they went on, it was necessary to understand what .money there would be to vote. Mr. Okmond said notice would be given for the Committee of Ways and Means immediately. The item was carried, and the Council adjourned until half-past seven. The Council met again at half-past seven. Mr. M'Lean moved the suspension of standing order No. 26, which, being agreed to, he gave notice that the Council resolve itself into a Committee of Ways and Means next day. ' Committee of Supply. j The Council then went into Committee I of Supply. Major Lambert moved that the item " Police Department " be re-committed, which, being agreed to, he moved for an extra policeman* at Waipawa. The Chairman said the motion was not in order. Notice should be given that the Superintendent should be asked to place the sum on the estimates. The Superintendent placed a sum on the estimates for an extra policeman at Waipawa, and the amount was voted. The committee then proceeded with the items under the head of "Eoads and Bridges " : — I Tareha's Bridge to Puketapu, £700. Agreed to. Taupo Eoad, £130. Mr. Locke proposed that this sum be increased to £400. He thought some portion of the loan should be devoted to this purpose, in accordance with the promise of the Government. Mr. M'Lean- moved that the sum be | increased to £300. He thought the -General Government would agree to give another £100. Taipo Eoad, £30 ; Napier to Havelock Eoad, £280 ; Te Aute Eoad, £350 ; carried. , Waipukurau to Eperaima, £160. Mr. Bubhanan asked what was the traffic on this road. Mr. M'Lean said the road passed through by Capt. Newman's old place ; and there would be a considerable amount of traffic there shortly, as Cobb's coaches would be passing there. Item carried. Porangahau to southern boundary of Province, £100 ; Eperaima to Porangahau, £150 ; Arlington to Mangapoaka, £20 ; Eperaima to Blackhead, £15 ; Eoad through 40-mile Bush, £190; Middle Eoad", £150; carried. Eoad to Hampden, £100. Mr. A'Deane asked the Superintendent to place an additional sum on the estimates for the road to Hampden. There was a government township established there which had produced a considerable sum to the revenue. It was the outlet to 150,000 apres. He had been informed £400 would put the road in good condition, Mr. M'Lean moved that £100 be added to the item, making £200 in all. Carried.