TOLL GATE BILL.

Hawke's Bay Herald, Volume 12, Issue 882, 8 October 1867, Page 2

TOLL GATE BILL.

PUBLIO MEETING OF THE INHABITANTB OF NAPIER, On Saturday evening last a numerous and influentially attended meeting was held in the Masonic Hall, pursuant to a notice convening the same. Mr. Irvine moved that Mr. Wood take the chair. Mr. Wood saidthatthemeetinghadbeen called by himself, in conjunction with a few others, for the purpose of ascertaining the opinion of the town" electors on this question. He had been told*that the course

taken was an unconstitutional one, bu he submitted that it was not; they wereperfectly competent to express an opinion upon any matter under discussion in the Provincial Council ; and it would not be difficult to bring forward examples of this. They did not wish to put a pressure on the Council ; they only wished to give the publip an opportunity of expressing their views, and thus guiding members when the Bill came on in. committee. They all knew the present position of the Bill. The tolls were intended to be the same as the punt, which were 2s 6d for bullock drays ; Is 6d for horse drays ; Is for one horse vehicles ; 6d. for horses ; 3d for foot passengers ; lijf d for cattle ; and for sheep . — A Voice : How much for dogs P Mr. Wood : There was nothing about dogs at present, though possibly they would be included. [Mr. Kennedy subsequently said that no charge was intended for foot passengers.] He had not wished to shelve the bill altogether. He knew that the Government wanted the money for road purposes ; but what he and others wanted was that the money should not go into the general revenue. From a calculation made by the Provinoial Engineer, it was estimated that the tolls would produce £2300 ; of which sum Napier ' woiild pay £300, and Meaner £300; but he thought this calculation very erroneous, for of the sum which Meanee would contribute, many individuals would pay £20, £26, and £30 each. Mr.. Buchanan "had said that the residents of Napier and the. surrounding districts would!" pay nine-tiMs of the toll. This he firmly believes; and it was on that ground he had supported that gentleman's resolutions. His opinion was that " what was sauce for the goose was sauce for the gander," and he had therefore brought forward a resolution \o establish toll-gates in other places besides that proposed. The motion was. fully debated in the Council, but was strongly objected to by country members; and, finding that he would only have the support of four members out of a Council of eighteen, he , withdrew it. That debate, however, put the matter in a new light. Mr. Ormond took occasion to intimate that it was his object — notwithstanding the resolution which had been carried that thetblls should be spent on the district where they were raised — to defeat that purpose if possible, and that he would use his best efforts to have the money appropriated by the Council, which meant, of course, carrying it to general revenue. The proposed toll would press very unfairly on a few. It was felt to be a great grievance that a man, after riding three miles along a shingle beach, would have to pay the same contribution as one who had ridden thirty or forty miles over a made road. On Tuesday the Bill would come on in committee, and it was possible still to make some alteration in it. They did not wish to influence that meeting at all, and, hence, no resolutions had been prepared. The object was simple to place the matter before the electors, and to ascertain their opinion, by which the Council might be guided. (Loud cheers.) Mr. levine said he had nothing to say after what Mr. Wood had stated. That gentleman had taken every word out of his mouth. There was no attempt to influence the meeting ; he, for one, would be guided by their decision. In England they were abandoning the toll-gate system. There was a possibility yet of the Bill being overturned, and he and others wished to ascertain the views of the electors that they might know how to proceed in the matter. Mr. Woegan said he was not interested in the matter, and could therefore give an unbiassed opinion. He felt that as a townsman he spoke in the interests of the townspeople. ■ £t was clearly a choice of two evils ; whether they were to submit to a rate, or to a toll. The money must be raised, either in the shape of a toll or a rate. He would ask the chairman if that was not the case. Mr. Wood : The question of rates was not before the Provincial Council at present, but he had no doubt there would either have to be a toll or a road rate. Mr. Woegan : Thus there was a choice of two evils. Would they choose voluntary taxation, in the shape of a toll ; or compulsory taxation, in the shape of a rate. Many people in Napier would growl considerably if they had the rate collector calling frequently. He thought if. any person present gave his vote for a rate he would live to see reason to regret it. , Mr. levine, in reply tp Mr. Worgan, said that gentleman must have had considerable experience of the working of the toll-system at home, before coming to his adopted country, and he would ask him whether toll-gates there were not becoming totally obsolete P Mr. Worgan: Thanks to railroads. Mr. levine : No thanks to railroads. The system adopted in the old country of levying rates on houses, would be far preferable. It was not because he kept a horse and trap that he objected to tollgates; he was perfectly willing to pay a rate on them, but he must insist that the proper system was by a tax on horses. Gentlemen living far up the country could ride forty or fifty miles with paying sixpence ; while people here could not ride three and a half miles without paying tolls. Mr. Stuaet said it appeared to him monstrous, that in the nineteenth century, the age of civilisation, they should be proposing to adopt what England had abandoned. They were trying hard to introduce them into this country, a thing the most absurd and flagrant that could be originated. In this instance it was a direct attack upon the town of Napier, for the benefit of those gentlemen who lived at a distance. The £2,000 or more likely £4,000 raised by it— A Voice ! Draw it mild. Mr. Stuaet : . Well, say £2000. They knew what the Government were ; when once they got hold of the money, it was a case with it ; they might as well muzzle •the wild ox as trust it to the Government. It was a tax for the benefit of large runholders, and would press heavily on small farmers and producers. He could instance a well-known settler in the Meanee district who was in the habit of bringing in a- little produce, realising about fifteen shillings a day for it, out of which he would have to pay a shilling toll. A Voice : He can well afford it. I Mr. Stuaet : No, he could not afford it. No one living in that station could well afford it. He condemned the tax. If the members did their duty, they would protest, against the tax to the last, and to the best of their ability. A rate would be much easier collected. Surely people who had been here twenty years, could get two or three persons- among them to form an estimate of the value of lands. If the tolls were placed all over the Province, it would be a different thing ; but that was not what was intended. They were only to have the toll at their own doors. Gentlemen from up the country could ride into Waipawa without paying toll, or anywhere else as much as they liked. It was only when they came into town that they would have to pay. Mr. Oaelyon said he had come there, attracted by the placards which had been posted. He ha^d- thought the people of Napier should show a' little less apathy, tolls would not even come out of the

He wanted to know who was responsible for that meeting, and what they had come there for P He supposed they had come for the purpose of discussing the question of toll-gates or no toll-gates, and that the meeting had been suggested by what had passed in the Provincial Council. He was not going to complain of what some might call- pressure. lie saw 'nothing, like pressure in the matter. He did not ap?ear there as a member of the Provincial !ouncil, but as an elector of the town of Napier and as one who had an interest in the matter being fully discussed. He wished the question to be thoroughly dis.cussed; for though he lived forty miles away from town, he was as much interested in the matter as persons living in Scinde Island or Napier. There was no difference between town interest and country interest. The agricultural interest was in the Province long before Napier was heard of. If the town was swept away the agricultural interest would still flourish ; but where would the town be if the agricultural interest was swept away P He did not want to discuss the point. He had a much more important point to discuss over the way. (Laughter.) If Mr. Stuart disapproved of the toll-gate bill, could he devize any other means P That gentleman had a great power of reticence. He had only heard him express himself against one toll-gate. . If he had shown anything against the principle of toll-gates he could understand mm. The Government had no other means of raising the money that was absolutely required for the repairs of the rpa<Js ; and if the Bill was not carried, or some other means shown, they would have to find other persons to occupy the Government benches. Napier was the only place where there were roads. (Loud cries of Oh ! oh !). His opinion was that wherever there were metal roads, a toll should ♦be put up. It was scandalous that there was no toll on Ngaruroro Bridge. When the punt was there it had been charged for ; but the bridge, which had cost some £6000 or £7000, was free. People could go scot-free over it. They had had to pay for the punt ; yet, when it was taken away, they had not to pay for the bridge. Some gentlemen were very fond or pleasure. He had made some enquiries during the last few days, and he had discovered that all the opponents of this measure were married men, who were fond of driving their friends out, and " shouting nobbier s ' freely on the road. It was a fine excuse for them when their wives said "My dear, will you take me for a drive," to make some excuse about the toll. 11 was entirely a domestic question. It had been said that the Maoris would evade the toll by going through the water ; perhaps so ; it was a pity some other people would not go through the water. He would advocate letting the Maoris go through free. (Mr. Carlyon here left the Hall). Mr. levine said Mr. Carlyon had referred to what he had said in respect to the evasion of tolls. .There was no law to prevent a man riding along the beach under high- water mark. The effect of the proposed toll-gates would be to shut the Maoris out of the town altogether ; and those who had stores in town might remove them beyond the toll-gate. With respect to the agricultural interest, he need not make any further remarks. The toll would press heavily on the Papakura and Meanee settlers. A dray-load of wool, of the value of perhaps £300, could pass the toll by paying 2s. 6d. ; while a milk-cart, the contents, of which were perhaps worth 305., would have to pay Is. The agricultural people were hardly dealt with. (Hear, hear.) On Friday night Mr. Wood had brought in a motion, affirming the necessity of making toll gates general, but they had found the country members dead against it, and it was withdrawn. He wanted to know the views of the townspeople on the subject, in order that they might get up a petition to the Council, or adopt such course* as might be thought best. Mr. Sutton said it was only right he should say something. His views on the subject were somewhat different to Mr. Irvine's. He looked upon toll gates as a melancholy necessity. (Laughter.) But he had always been of opinion that they should prevent tolls being put upon roads for general revenue. If Mr. Wood's motion had been carried, there would nave been no reason to complain; the rdads would be in a better state with tolls than without them. The argument used by the country members against tolls on roads proposed by Mr. Wood, was that they would not pay. Now, the Provincial Engineer had estimated that £2300 would be collected, of which the Town would contribute £300, Meanee £300, and Kereru &c, £300, leaving £1400 to be contributed by the districts which they said would not pay. A toll-gate on the Te Aute would pay well. The Te Aute road had cost more thousands than the Meanee road had cost pounds. If it had been possible to get the money raised for tolls in the Meanee spent on the locality indicated, the members representing that district would not have made a bad job of it. Mr. levine said that he had voted for the shelving of the bill on the principle of choosing the least of two evils. There had been a combination between himself and two others to move an amendment shelving the bill until that meeting could take place. Mr. Dolbel had moved an amendment that the bill be read that day six months, which, of course, meant throwing out the bill altogether. However, he would support whatever the meeting wished. Mr. Stuart would admit that it would be all right, if they had toll gates all over the Province ; but that' was not intended. It was intended to affect the people of Napier and district. The Provincial Council was made up almost entirely of sheep-far-mers, (Hear, hear,) who would come sixty or seventy miles and pay their 6d or Is, or it might be, 2s 6d for a load of wool worth £300. Mr. Sutton had said it was a just tax. It was not fair for a man with a load of milk to have to pay the same as a load worth £300. As to the noisy gentleman (Mr. Carlyon) who had just gone out, he had bolted in time ; perhaps he guessed what was coming. He (Mr. Stuart) had been informed that, notwithstanding Mr. Carlyon's assertion that there were, no roads in his district, 15s per day had been paid for making a road there — Government stroke — they knew what that was. A Voice : That's why he said there were no roads. Mr. Stuaet : Some of the culverts, to his knowledge, had cost a guinea an inch. It was well enough for Mr. Carlyon to bolt. That gentleman might bring down four loads of wool — his whole season's clip, — for which he would pay 10s ; and they must remember the province paid these gentleman's tolls in the shape of the 12s 6d per day, (Hear, hear.) Some two or three of them came down once in six or nine months. He was not talking in his own interest ; he had not a horse, donkey, or a wheelbarrow in the Province. But. he thought it hard on people in poor circumstances, who could hardly make both ends meet, to have to pay £5 or £10 a year for tolls. A Voice : Let them put another pint of water in the milk ! Mr. Stuaet : It was to be hoped they were too honest for that ; besides tho water guage was easily applied. The

pockets of the sheepfarmers ; the draymen would have to pay them, and would only get the same for a load as they did now. He would move, " That, this meeting is of opinion that the erection of .a toll-gate in the vicinity of Napier is injudicious and calculated to press unduly on the inhabitants of the town of Napier and neighbourhood." An individual enquired whether the toll-gate was, to. be opposite the Masonic Hotel P The Chairman replied that it was to be at Tareha's Bridge. Mr. Worgan wished to say a few words more. It was a large subject to deal with. If they had, a rate, every householder would have to pay it. He could remember toll-gate 3 m the old country many years ago ; in fact, he had been a trustee of one. There was no grumbling. People paid the tolls, and yet made a good living. He did. not say this to reflect on the Meanee settlers. He could sympathise with their distress, and he hoped matters would come right bye-and-bye. Whatever course they adopted, let them do it with their eyes open, and think twice before they acted. He proposed the following amendment : " That this meeting prefers a toll-gate as a more fair and equitable tax than a general rate upon all householders." Seconded by Mr. Lee. Mr. Robjohns said it had come out that the money collected was intended to go into the hands of the Government; and not to repair the. roads, and probably would not be spent on the' roads on which it was collected. He should regard the tax, if levied to repair the. roads, a fair one, if the money was spent on the district. If the money got into the Government's hands, good-bye to it. He would ask Mr. Worgan what kind of Government it was which began with £10,000 to their credit, and in four years were £10,000 in debt. (Hear, hear, and cheers.) There was not a more unpopular tax in England than toll-gates. Mr. Stuart said, in reply to Mr. Worgan, he differed from that gentleman. It would be a very unequal tax for the province. They wanted to tax the town for the benefit of the country people. He had seen a little of the working ot tollgates in England last year ; in some places there were toll-gates every five or six miles, so that a person who had come fifty or sixty miles might have to pay toll ten times, and the same state of things might occur here. (Hear, hear.) The effect of the bill would be to prevent half the people from coming into town. If Mr. Worgan was interested in commerce, he would agree with him. The Maoris would not understand this tax; if they did, they would not pay it— it would go against their grain. Mr. Wood said, although it was not usual for the chairman to speak, they would pardon him making one remark. Mr. Worgan had said that those who had roads should pay for them. This was an extraordinary remark from a t townsman, who, of all others, had not got the roads ; if they had, they would be better satisfied. Mr. Stuart's motion was then put to the meeting, and carried, there being only three dissentients. Mr. Kennedy said he had not come to take a part in the proceedings, but to learn the views of his constituents. He had formed part of the Government when the measure was proposed some two years ago, but it was withdrawn. He had never concealed his opinions on the matter. When asked at tne hustings if he was in favor of tolls, he had replied in the affirmative. He was glad to see that the meeting supported him. (Loud hisses.) A very few people could make a noise, but he beJieved he was right. (Renewed uproar.) When the Ngaruroro punt was in existence people had to pay to cross it, now they could cross the bridge free, notwithstanding its cost. A Voice : How would you like a toll near Edwards' in the Shakespeare Road. Mr. Kennedy would not object, if it was considered necessary. He imagined it was never for a moment contemplated, to put a toll on foot passengers. (Hear, hear.) Mr. Lee seconded Mr. Worgan's amendment. The amendment was put and lost, only three being in favour of it. (Loud shouts and cries of "Where's Kennedy now ?") Mr. Worgan said the meeting had been conducted with great fairness. The meeting had decided] in favour of a rate, and he wished them joy of it. Mr. Robjohns then proposed the following resolution : — "That this meeting is of opinion that the members for the town in the Provincial Council should be requested to use their influence to have the Toll Bill thrown out." He said they were not sure that the tax would not be put upon land. (Hear, hear.) That, he considered, would be a just tax.. The motion was seconded by -Mr. Stuart. Mr. Sutton said if the motion was carried it would put the Town members in an awkward position. He had expressed himself all along in favor of toll-gates, and the effect of carrying this resolution would be asking them to eat their own words. A' Voice : Why did'nt you consult your constituents before coming here P Mr. Sutton said the whole of the 98 persons who voted for him knew his opinions perfectly well. Mr. Kennedy said he wished to say a few words out of respect to his constituents. He should be happy to consult them on every occasion, but large and influential as that meeting was, an expression of feeling from it would not enlighten him much as to the opinion of his constituents. A Voice : What did you call the meeting for P Mr. Wood explained that Mr. Kennedy had not called the meeting ; it had been convened by himself and a few others. The motion was then put and carried, only one hand being held up against it. : (Loud cheering.) Mr. Stuart then proposed a vote of thanks to the Chairman. Carried unanimously. Mr. Wood returned thanks, and the meeting separated.