PROVINCIAL COUNCIL.

Hawke's Bay Herald, Volume 12, Issue 881, 5 October 1867, Page 1

PROVINCIAL COUNCIL.

TUESDAY, OCTOBER 1. The Speaker took the chair shortly after 3 o'clock. •Members present: Messrs. Ormond, Ekodes, Kennedy, Irvine, Wood, Tiffen, Tanner, Locke, Buchanan, Whitmore, Sutton, Parsons, Dolbel, and Weston. The minutes of the previous sitting were read and confirmed. Responsible Government' Mr. Tannee wished to know, before proceeding with the business before the Council, whether, with reference to what had been stated laßt session, the Executive still considered themselves iresponsible. In such event, they could not go . on with the business until the Superintendent returned (Hear, hear.) He must confess he thought his Honor, might have been present ; the Council had been adjourned twice on his account; and he, thought the Superintendent, under those' circumstances, might have attended. He had been informed that Mr. McLean was remaining in Wellington to. obtain some money ; now if the Executive were irresponsible, the hon. member for Porangahau (Mr. Ormond) might with great advantage have remained behind to attend to that matter, and thus have afforded the Superintendent an opportunity of returning to conduct the Government business. One thing, however, was certain—the Government must take some definite attitude in the matter of responsibility. They must either assume responsibility or remain private members. • Mr. Obmond said the answer he should give was that he hardly understood the point of responsibility at which it was desired to arrive (Laughter.) With regard to proceeding with the business, there was no difficulty, inasmuch as during the Superintendent's absence, he was represented by the hon. member for Clive (Mr. Ithodes). The question of responsible " Government had been debated many times previously, and he declined to enter on the question at present. One thing, however, he might say, that the Government were in a different position to the Executive of other provinces, inasmuch as they did not hold paid offices. What the Executive proposed to do in the present instance was with the thorough knowledge and acquiescence of the Superintendent, and was carrying out what they had together arrived at (Hear, hear). Those observations, however, referred only to the question of finance ; for the other business, which the Superintendent himself had initiated, of course he was responsible. As to his Honor's treaijng the Council with want of consideration- by his absence, he (Mr. Ormond, might ininform them that the Superintendent and himself had arranged to leave Wellington by the steamer which left Wellington on the 29th ult. Early on that day, however, the Superintendent received a message from the Government, stating that his presence was necessary in the Assembly during the ensuing debate on the estimates for native affairs ; and appealing to hftn to remain, on the ground that as their agent in this province he might have something to do with the expenditure of the money. Under these circumstances, the Superintendent considered it best to remain a week longer, but he would arrive in the St. Kilda, which was to leave on the Saturday morning. The Executive did not wish to press the Council to go on with the business ; but the arrangement objected to by the hon. member for Te Aute (Mr. Tanner) was made in consequence of the Superintendent believing that the Council would be desirous of despatching the business as Suickly as possible. It was entirely for b.e Council to decide what was to be done; if they wished to proceed, the Executive were fully prepared. Colonel Whitmoee wished to hear distinctly from the hon. member for Porangahau whether the Government had any objection during the present session to consider the question of responsibility. His opinion was that the Superintendent's advisers should be the exponents of a majority of the Council. If such were not the case, there might easily occur a position in which the Council might agree with the Superintendent and not with his Executive ; not that he wished to assume such to be the case in the present instance, as he believed the Government deserved the thanks of the province for their past services ; but still the question required deciding. He (Col. Whitmore) did not ♦foWlr it proper fo» tke Superintendent to take part in the debates of the Council, although, under the Constitution Act, he had the power to do so ; he ought to refrain from discussion, and review measures when they were sent up to him ; under existing circumstances it was like allowing him two votes. He (Col. Whitmore) deemed it his duty to defend the interests of his constituents by settling this matter; and he objected to the attempt made to influence hon. members by considering any stringent remarks upon any questions raised as a vote of censure on the Superintendent. Many hon: members who would otherwise speak their minds on the matter would be tongue-tied if an attempt ■ was made to twist the matter in that direction. The Executive should represent ■ a majority of the Council ; if not, it produced a great deal of recrimination and opposition ; he could confidently state that during the five years he had lived in the province, the Council had never been free from discussion on the point. The province of Nelson was the only one in which the Executive were not responsible. If salaries must be found for members of a responsible Government, he supposed they would have to do so, though there were, he had no doubt, plenty of other gentlemen willing to render their services on the same terms. If any one had to be paid, it was his opinion the Treasurer should receive some remuneration. He should like the hon. member (Mr. Ormond) to state whether, on the return of the Superintendent, the Government would take the question of responsibility into consideration. Mr. Tiffen was of opinion that the position of the Government should be denned. . He did not see that the member for Te Aute (Mr. Tanner) was' quite right in his argument. They could carry on the business notwithstanding-the Superintendent's absence. He (Mr. Tiffen) did not coincide with the opinion that the Council was not, disposed to proceed. Many hon. members around him were anxious to return to business which required their presencej and there was no fear of having a bad attendance .of hon. members. The hon. * member for the Wairoa (Col. Whitmore) had threatened them with the Superintendent's, resignation. He (Mr. Tiffen) believed his Honor's mind too well balanced for. him. jto resign so great a trust for such a flight "matter.

. Colonel Whitmoee said the hon. member had misunderstood him ; he did not make such an assertion. Mr. Tiffen said the hon. member for Clive (Mr. Rhodes) would bear him out in the statement that from the earliest time a Provincial Council had been established in the province they had attempted to carry out the principle that the Superintendent should not sit in the Council. At the first election of Superintendent the members on either side had' been equal, five each way, and at length they had to compromise the matter by the election of Mr. Fitzgerald. For his own part, he believed in responsible Government, the Sugerintendent not having a seat in the iouncil. Such had always been his opinion, and he had seen no occasion to after it. The Executive should stand alone, and not take shelter under the wing of the Superintendent. If such a course were adopted the business would progress more speedily every session. . . Mr. Buchanan wished to make a few remarks respecting what had occurred at the close of the last sitting (Hear, hear.) Hon.. members ♦would remember that on that occasion he had proposed that the business should be conducted by the two members of the Executive who intended remaining behind (Messrs. Bhodes and Kennedy,) but Mr. Ormond objected on the ground that the Superintendent, being responsible, preferred being himself present. He aid not see the force of the objection made to his proposition, but had bowed, to the dictum of the Government. Now, atotally different view was enunciated. He confessed he could not understand blowing hot and cold in the same breath. He could not see how they could go on with the financial question in the absence of the Superintendent ; he had no objection to proceed with the matters already initiated by that gentleman (Hear, hear) but to take up new matter he most decidedly objected. He . hoped the hon. member (Mr. Ormond) would not misunderstand frim when he said that if the Superintendent had been in a position to communicate by message or letter it might have been different, but they had merely a verbal statement as to the Superintendent's wishes. As to the duties of the DeputySuperintendent, they were those of a mere Executive officer, deputed to discharge the duties of the Superintendent, but not to perform his functions in that House (Hear, hear.) The Government themselves had assented to that^view. He did not intend to touch upon what had been brought forward by "the hon. member for the Wairoa (Colonel; Whitmore) but he could not help noticing the anomalous position of the Government. It had beendeliberatejy stated, v on a former occasion, that the Government were not responsible. Everything appeared in a state of mist ; and it would certainly tend more to the advancement of business if the question of responsibility were settled. He made these remarks without expressing any opinion on the matter, distinctly refraining from committing himself to support the general principle of responsible Government. Mr. Oemond said the question was a large one, and required proper notice. He considered discussion on the matter out of place at present ; and should confine himself to answering the question of the hon. member for the Wairoa (Colonel Whitmore,) as to whether the Government were prepared to take up responsible Government. During the absence of the Superintendent, he (Mr. Ormond) could not enter into the question ; but it must be obvious that, if the Superintendent sat in the Council, at the same time having a responsible Government, it would be a strange anomaly. He was not prepared to say what Mr. McLean's opinions were on the subject. So far as he was himself concerned, he was in the same position as the member for Napier Country — not going to commit himself. (Hear, hear, from Mr. Buchanan) , It did, however, appear strange that the question was now being agitated — after all the years they had worked under the other system — at a time when provincialism was on its last legs. He had seen a great deal lately in another place, and he was of opinion that another twelve months would see the deathblow given to provincialism. He thought the Superintendent placed a great deal of weight on the opinion of the Council in the matter, and it was not right to debate the question during his absence.,,: With regard to finance, although not authorised by letter, he had gone fully into the matter with the Superintendent ; and the Government were fully prepared to put the estimates before the Council — whether they would be proceeded with rested cn T tirely with members themselves. The Council would not be disposed to go largely into business to-day ; he would suggest that they should take the second reading of the first order of the day (Cemetery Bill), and also debate the resolutions on the Tollgate Bill. He hoped they would be able to go into the other Bills the next day. He might mention, although he had no official intimation to produce, that the Thistle. Bill last session had been disallowed on the ground that the fines should have' been made general revenue, instead of made applicable to purposes under the Act. Cemeteries Bill. Mr. Tiffen, in moving the second reading of this bill, said that little explanation was necessary. The necessity for such a measure had long forced itself on the attention of the public. • This Bill was essentially the same as the Wellington Act, but differed from it in one respect, viz., that it was not proposed to hand the land over to trustees, but simply to provide for the appointment of managers, who could be removed by the Superintendent, the advantage of which was that men who were lazy and would not work could be replaced by others, which would not be the case with trustees. Mr. Oemond seconded the motion. Bill read a second time, and ordered to be committed presently. Postponement. On the motion of Mr. Oemond, the second reading of the Slaughter House Bill, District Eoads Bill, and Toll-gate Bill were postponed till the Mowing day. Amendment on Toll-gate Bill. Mr. Buchanan's notice of Resolutions to be moved upon the second. rWlingv of the Toll-gate BUI, was the next notice on the paper. Mr. Buchanan' said the resolutions on the Toll-gate Bill could not be taken without the second reading being moved. His was a contingent motion,- and the two must be taken together. The Speakeb said that by the consent of the Council* the resolutions might be taken, as had been suggested by the hon. member (Mr. Ormond). Mr. Buchanan declined to go* on with the resolutions until the second reading of the Bill. _

Cemeteries Bill in Committee, The Council then went into committee on the Cemeteries Bill. On the suggestion of Mr. Wood, who said that the rights of religious denominations might be involved, clause 2, which referred to the appointment of managers, was postponed. On the motion of Colonel Whitmobe, a .sentence was inserted in clause 11, securing one fourth of every Cemetery reserve for the purpose of a common burial ground. Mr. Wood raised the question whether, in clause 11, the prohibition for any religious body to fence off its proportion of the ground, was not contrary to the views of members of the Roman Catholic communion. I Mr. Tiffen said that, in all modern Cemeteries, the division was simply a pathway. Otherwise there could be no uniform plan for ornamenting the ground. Mr. Kennedy and Mr. Buchanan took the same view, and the matter dropped. Adjournment. The Council then adjourned till the following day. WEDNESDAY, OCTOBER 3. The Speaker took the chair at 3 o'clock. All the members. present. The minutes of the previous meeting were read and confirmed. Correspondence with Bank of New Zealand. Mr. Tannee moved — For the production of all correspondence between the Government and the Manager of the Bank of New Zealand, relative to advances in accordance with the supplies voted at the last sitting. — He said his object in bringing forward the motion was to elicit the real position of the Government with respect to their engagements with the New Zealand Bank. Last session certain objections had been taken to the estimates ; but the Government then took an unconstitutional course, which they justified by saying that if the estimates were not passed it would cause great distress, but if the Council passed it, all would go on smoothly, and everybody would be paid the sums due to them. He had voted for the Government on the understanding of their good faith in making the necessary arrangements ; but he had since heard bitter complaints from, employers and shopkeepers, who had informed him that they could not get money owing to them by the Government, and had to pay, in some cases, 20 per cent, to enable them to meet their engagements, from being unable to obtain what was justly due to them. He had also been informed on reliable authority that cheques drawn by a responsible officer of the Government had been dishonored by the Bank of Naw Zealand, the Manager refusing to cash them from tho fact of the account being overdrawn. Mr. Kennedy : Cheques ? Mr. Tannee : Yes, cheques. He had been told on good authority that the manager had stated tho Government were deeply in debt, and the 3ank refused to make any further advance. He had asked the people who complained to him whether they expected to be paid, and they said yes, on Mr. M'Lean's return. They apparently considered His Honor to be a peripatetic money-chest ; thinking they had only to see his face to get the money. (Laughter). The credit of the Government ought to have a firmer basis than the accidental absence or presence of any man in the province. (Hear, hear). He could not suppose the Government would willingly allow such a state of things to exist. They had been told some time ago that certain opposition to a Government measure was wicked; he should like to know who was answerable for the present wicked position of affairs. He thought the Council was entitled to a full explanation ; lest they might again be called on to perform the farce of voting moneys not existing or forthcoming. 1 Mr. Okmond said that he did not expect to have to reply to such statements as the hon. member had made when he read the notice of motion. The only correspondence of which he was aware was a letter from the Executive to the Bank of New Zealand, asking for an additional advance of £5000, which the Bank declined until the consolidation of the Provincial Loans by the General Government, which would assure the safety of the advance. That was the answer he had intended to give the hon. member for Te Aute (Mr. Tanner.) There had been no correspondence since, but a negotiation between himself, (in the absence of the Superintendent), and the Bank of New Zealand, under which he obtained £2000 for remittance to Mr. Morrison, the agent of the province in London, which he had advanced to Shaw, Saville and Co. on account of the Montmorency. The whole amount was £2400 ; of that sum Mr. Morrison had paid £2000, which he (Mr. Orniond) had remitted by the last Suez mail ; the balance was retained pending certain claims for missing luggage. There was also a further advance of £500 obtained by the Deputy- Superintendent, being* the deposit money for the Papak'ura block. That had been the whole of the correspondence, and was the legitimate answer to the hon. member's question. In answer to the statement that the Government had promised the Council, when they passed the estimates last session, that they hoped to be able to meet all their engagements, he might say that the Government had received almost a direct promise from the Bank, of £5000 at the end of June. That had been their position when they made their statement to the Council : but they had since applied and been refused by the Bank. From other sources, however, their liabilities had been materially reduced. Was he to understand the hon. member had been informed that the manager of the Bank of New Zealand had stated that the Government was so deeply indebted that no further advances would be made to it. Mr. Tannee : Yes. Mr. Oemond. said if the manager had made such a statement is was, to say the least, an imprudent one, considering the transactions likely to take place between the Bank and the Government this session. From his knowledge of the gentleman who held that position, he considered it very unlikely that he had said it. Should the /Consolidation of the Provincial Loans be effected, and it was virtually done already, the money would be forthcoming before the St. Kikla left Wellington. The correspondence on the subject would be laid on the table. He denied that a responsible officer's cheques had been dishonored; perhaps it was a private cheque drawn by a Government official. If so there was nothing extraordinary in the matter. * No doubt there were many personswho would be cautious in honoring the private

cheques of some Government officials, who were not entitled to any higher consideration as a class in such matters than anybody else ; perhaps, indeed, the reverse. Mr. Buchanan said the hon. member | for Te Aute (Mr. Tanner) had stated that cheques drawn on public account were dishonored; not private cheques (Hear, hear.) It was a cheque drawn by a public officer against the public funds which had been dishonored (Hear, hear.) Mr. Obmond denied the statement. Mr. Bhodes said he could certify such a thing had never occurred, so far as the Treasurer's cheques were concerned. Mr. Buchanan would speak plain ; it was a cheque drawn by the Provincial Engineer; who he understood was empowered to draw cheques on public ac-^ count. Mr. levine said he held the dishonored cheque drawn by the Provincial Engineer, and lie was greatly surprised to find the matter had become public (Latfghter.) He thought he could explain the matter. The Provincial Engineer kept two accounts at the Bank, and the cheque in question was on his private account. There might be other cases besides his (Mr. Irvine's.) Mr. Tannee said that the cheque, referred to by the last speaker was not the one upon which he had based the motion. He did not think the last speaker had improved the case by telling them that the Provincial Engineer kept two accounts at the Bank, one of them being to pay for work from his own funds if he could get no money from Government. He thought if the Government were responsible for work done, they should also be responsible for cheques drawn by Government officers in payment of work. The motion was carried. Work on Battery Road. Mr. Sutton asked the Government Whether the works now being carried on in Battery Eoad are to be paid for out of Provincial funds ; if so, out of which item on the last estimates they are to be paid for. — He said, since putting the notice on the paper, he had, in turning over a file of the " Herald," seen an advertisement signed by the Provincial Engineer, calling for tenders ; therefore, it was obviously intended, that this work should be paid for by Provincial funds. There had been no provision made for. the works on last estimates. The road in question, which many present had never seen, was between the residence of Mr. Catchpool and the late residence of Capt. Curling. There was no traffic, except by one or two residents ; and such expenditure was clearly a waste of money in the present state of the public finances. Mr. Oemond said there was a sum on last estimates for " Grants in Aid." The residents in the present instance had subscribed some.£so, thus complying with the system under which it was usual to make these advances . The work was a continuation (10 chains) of the Battery Eoad ; it would, cost £100 ; and of this sum the residents had already paid £30, and were to Say £20 this week, One advantage of the rovernment assisting to make this road wad that it affords access to the reserve known as Curling's Gully, which the Government proposed leasing. Mr. Lambeet thanked the hon. member who had given the notice for having elicited the explanation. Sheep and Scab Act. Mr. Oemond moved, — For leave to bring in a Bill to amend the existing Scab and Sheep Acts. — In making this motion, he said that the Act of last session had been disallowed, on the ground that, under clause' 4, penalties to be summarily recovered for driving sheep into the province might exceed £100; which the Attorney-General regarded as a fatal objection. But in point of fact an Act would be utterly useless if the penalty did not exceed, that amount. In some cases a man. would think nothing of paying £100, if he could drive on his flock. He (Mr. Ormond) had written Mown to day by the out-going mail, and proposed waiting until they heard, from Wellington, with the Attorney-General's opinion as to whether the lato Act could not be renewed in some shape to make it operative. He would move that the second reading be made an order of the day for the first sitting day next week. Agreed to. • Immigration Repayments. Mr. Buchanan moved — That a return of the amount collected on account of immigration repayments, between the Ist July and the 30th September, be laid on the table. — He said his object was to ascertain what amount had absolutely' been recovered. A large sum had been set down last session as revenue from this source, and he had expressed his doubts at the time whether, in the present state of the province, any such sum would be recovered ; issue on this had been joined by the gentlemen opposite. He was anxious to obtain such return ; as it would serve as an index how far they might rely on such estimates in future. Mr. Oemond said that the return would be laid upon the table. £500, the sum estimated, had not been realised; at the same time, though the estimated amount had not been obtained, the}'' would not be justified in concluding that they would not therefore be more successful in future. The Government did not give up their right to call upon these people to make good their passage money, but for the last four months they had not pressed them, on account of the times being bad, which would have rendered paying up a serious matter to many. However, the busy time was approaching, when money would *be more plentiful, and the claims would then be enforced. He had told the Council that there was a difficulty in estimating the revenue for that item, and such had turned out to be the case. Estimates. Major Lambeet, with reference to a notice of motion by Mr. Ormond, enquired if the estimates would really be brought on to-morrow, seeing that members had not yet been supplied with copies. Mr. Oemond said that copies would be placed in members' hands, but that the consideration of the estimates could be further postponed if thought desirable. Postponements. The second reading of the Sheep Branding Act, and second reading of tho Dog Nuisance Act, standing in Mr. Tanner's name, were, at his request, postponed until Tuesday, * October 8 — the bills not being yet prepared. Slaughter House Bill. Mr. Oemond moved—That the second reading of this Bill be postponed until Friday, October 4— the Bill not yet being in the printer's hands. Agreed to.

Districts Roads Bill Mr. Obmond, in the absence of Mr. M'Lean, in moving the second reading of this Bill, said there* was an Aofc already in existence on the Statute Book, viz. | "The. Districts Highways Act, 1856" which was at the present moment the law of the province. There were several things in it not applicable here, and several things omitted. The present Act had been brought in by the Government at the beginning of the session. The time would come before long, when some general system by which the districts themselves would manage their roads would have to be law, suited as much as possible to their requirements. He would admit that the proposed arrangement was only a temporary one, designed to keep trunk roads under the Provincial Government, and hand the district roads over to persons living in the districts, who would contribute towards their improvement. In other places all the roads had been handed over to Road Boards, and the time was rapidly coming when such would be the case here ; the time indeed was coming when they would have no funds to carry out roads of any kind. Independently of other considerations, when the interest ofthe loan came to account, a large sum would be added to the expenditure side. Respecting this loan, by the way, there had been a great outcry at the time against borrowing, but as it turned out, if they had borrowed a little more while they were about it, it would have been all the better. £60,000 was the present indebtedness of the province. Under the financial scheme of the Treasurer, it was true, each province would be charged with the interest upon its own loan ; but as, inevitably, provinces as an institution must soon disappear, the interest on all these loans will eventually be a charge upon the general revenue of the colony. They would, in fact, have been in a better position had they borrowed £30,000 more. That was, at all events a forcible answer to some hon. gentlemen's objections to borrowing. But to return to the Highways Act. The Government proposed to retain certain clauses of the Wellington Act ; the reason for this was that clauses relating to taking land for road purposes would be now disallowed, therefore they had retained a portion of the old Act. There were some amendments to be made 'in the Act as drafted, but these could be made in committee. Colonel Whitmoee could not agree with the bill so far as it referred to certain portions of the province. It might work well in some districts, but not as applied to the whole of the province. Many portions of the province had not had the same advantages in public works that others had, in proportion to what they had contributed in the shape of land revenue. It would not be justice to leave it entirely to the accidental votes of the persons present to determine whether the Bill should come into force. • What, might work very well in certain old districts would be quite inapplicable to young districts, such as that he represented, which had contributed largely to the land fund, and had got little or no.ajigjjtfjanee in the way of expenditure. Mr. Buchanan concurred in a great degree with the remarks of the hon. member for the Wairoa (Col. Whitinore.) He would move, that the Bill be read that day six months. The Bill was an exceedingly cumbrous one, and, in excepting Government land from the operation of the Bill, it was virtually made inoperative in certain districts. Take Mohaka, for instance ; was it to be expected that a few settlers were to pay for the whole of the roads in that wide country P It would be far better to introduce the principle of every settler contributing his share of labour towards forming the roads ; that system had worked well elsewhere 5 better even to : hand/, the money over to the gentlemen in the neighbourhood to disburse it in the best; way they could. He could understand the difficulty in which the Government .were placed— difficulties which in great measure they had brought on themselves ; but he did not think the system they proposed was the one to remedy the matter. Had they borrowed more money, as the hon. member for Porangahau had said they should, they would have been still wouse off. Mr. Fitzherbert's scheme was that half of the provincial revenue was to be charged with the interest of its loans. They had a remnant of revenue, left ; he was sorry to say it was but a small one— and it behoved them to keep it intact and to manage it better in future than they had done in the past. He was always willing to give his best aid to the Government, and lie might state that the resolutions lie had brought forward last session were made solely with the object of judiciously using what revenue remained. He considered it his duty to give the Bill his most uncompromising opposition ; and would therefore move that it be read that day six months. Mr. Irvine seconded the motion. Major Lambert believed they were not old enough for bills of that sort. The expenses would eat up all the rates ; the Boards must employ surveyors ; and a great amount of other machinery of a" complicated nature was provided for. Ho would oppose the bill; for he believed if it went in to committee it would be so mangled that its own father would not know it. Mr. Tiffen said he objected to the bill as it stood at present, though he believed they wanted some machinery to carry out road improvements. He objected to about 30 out of tho 40 clauses of. the bill, so thought it better to oppose the second reading. Mr. Carlyon said the bill was badly drawn, and suggested that it might stand over until next session, before which time he would have an opportunity of pointing out to the Government his objections to the framing of the bill. Colonel 'Whitmore said if the Government wished the bill to go into committee with a view to amend it, he would support it, though he disapproved of many of its clauses. Ho believed persons- would not bo found in many districts to serve _ upon the Boards ; and he considered certain districts should bo specially exempted on the grounds he had before stated. Mr. Osmond said the Bill was not a now thing. Tne Wellington District Highways Act, 1856, in force in this province, was similar, but less applicable. In the present bill advantage had been taken of many things thought of by other provinces, and the Provincial Engineer had given Ids best assistance in framing it. He admitted there were not many districts in the province which the Bill would suit ; but if those districts did not choose to work under the Bill they might remain out. He believed Meanee, Rua r taniwha, and, probably, the district he came from (Porangahau), would work under it. In the coming state of things' there would be no money, even if they ex-

isted as a province. His own impression was that, whether the system was liked or not, it would have to be worked in a year or two ; they would have three large road districts, under another form of Government. Such, at least, was the opinion of a large majority of the legislators in the colony, and with this idea the bill was prepared and brought in. The proceedings in the General Assembly this session shewed that the time of which he spoke was coming very fast ; and it would be for the advantage of the colony whenever it did come. If the Council passed the second reading of the bill, he had no objection to the power of the Superintendent being so far restrained as to proclaim districts only which asked for it, making the bill a permissive one. (Hear, hear). In answer to what had been said respecting the Wairoa contributing largely to the revenue, and not receiving a fair proportion for public works, he might state that a good deal had been spent there. At the same time, there was a very large amount jjjf land in that district still left, which was available ; and, from this cause, that district might yet be the best off of any. He should not be surprised to see the Wairoa send a petition to the General Assembly next session to be made a separate district (laughter), which, if granted, would guarantee it a large proportion of its territorial revenue. In answer .to the hon. member for Napier Country (Mr. Buchanan), he (Mr. Ormond) would be willing, in the event of the Bill being committed, to assist in making the Bui only applicable to those districts choosing to accept it. As to raising the wind, which had been said was their object, the Government would, on the contrary, have to find wind for it, seeing that, if the Boards spent money,' the Government would have to find an equal amount. The hon. member for Napier Country had objected to his statements respecting Mr. Fitzherbert's scheme of consolidating the provincial loans, and had said they would have been in a worse position if they had borrowed' more money. If so, it would only have been for this year ; next year all the provincial loans would probably be consolidated and charged upon the colony. Auckland and Taranaki would have to shut up in six months ; the Superintendent of Auckland (Mr. John Williamson) had implied- as much ; and Marlborough was in the same predicament. This province, too, from sheer lack of means, would shut up in two years. He was not sorry for it. An Hon. Membee : Traitor. Mr. Ormond : No traitor ; it has long been my opinion. Half the money wasted in provincialism would go to those desirable purposes to which it ought to be applied. Something had been said about roads not having been laid out ; but under a new law of the colony, the provinces were bound to lay out their roads within three years. Here, he believed an officer was engaged marking tliem out ; and they would have to press the work to get it accomplished. With regard to the BUI, he was perfectly willing to refer the matter to a select committee. The amendment, that the Bill be read this day six months, was put, and a division called for with the following result: — Axes, 4. Noes, 12. Messrs. Buchanan, Messrs. Ormond, Weston, Rhodes, Carlyon, Kennedy, Lambert. Dolbel, Wood, Sutton, Locke, Tiffen, Tanner, Whitmore, Parsons, Irvine. The amendment was therefore lost. The Bill was then read a second time. ■ Mr, Oemond moved for a select committee on the bill. . Mr. Buchanan said it could only now be referred to a committee of the whole house. A select committee should have been appointed before the second reading. Mr. Oemond could quote a precedent in favor of the course he proposed. The Provincial Loans Consolidation had been read a second time in the Assembly, and afterwards referred to a select committee. Mr. Buchanan quoted " May," to the effect that after the bill shall have been read a second time the Council shall resolve itself into committee of the whole house, except when the Council shall deem a special committee necessary, in which case it shall appoint such committee with special instructions. Mr. Obmond would move that the following gentlemen be a select committee on the bill : — Messrs. Buchanan, Carlyon, Tiffen, Whitmore, Ehodes, Locke, Parsons, Dolbel, Lambert, and tho mover. Mr. Tiffen objected to serve on tho | committee on the ground that he was suffering from neuralgia : Mr. Buchanan and Major Lambert also objected, both being already on the Audit Committee and their time fully occupied. Mr. Buchanan moved as an amendment the addition of the following words to the end of the bill : " with instructions merely to bring in a bill repealing' the action of the Wellington Act on, the subject." A/ter some further discussion, Mr. Buchanan's amendment was put, and lost. The original motion, with the names of the three members objecting left out, was then put and carried. Toll Gate Bill. Mr. Okmond, in moving the second reading of this Bill, said he was well aware it wo\ild meet with opposition from some quarters. In conjunction with the Bill were two resolutions moved by the hon. member for Napier country (Mr. Buchanan) which the Government could not support. The revenue required supplementing by £2000, as the only means of maintaining the two main roads, one towards the south, and the other towards Taupo, and if the Council did not agree to the Bill, it would greatly embarrass them. The resolutions proposed to bo moved by Mr. Buchanan, though in conformity with the standing rules of tho Council, were not in order under tho present working of Parliament; a similar case had occurred in the House of Representatives, when the motion was not allowed to be put. Ho supposed'the idea was that the districts in which the toll-gjkfe'e was proposed to be placed contributed 'an undue proportion of the tolls derived, from them ; but if so, the roads cost a grdat deal more in repairs than their contributions amounted to ; and if persons living near town used the roads more, they had the advantage of being near town. He knew there was a certain amount of objection to the Bill on the ground that it was not desirable to commence the system, which appeared to be objectionable to all ; but the Government did not see the way to find the money otherwise. They had lost considerably through the recent proposals of the General Government ; they would lose £2000 ' of the Customs revenue while the revenue to be derived from other sources

might be expected to decrease considerably. He had no doubt most of the hon. members present would express their opinions upon the Bill; he would not, therefore, . occupy the time of the Council any longer. • .-.::■..■ ■ . Colonel Whitmoee would support the - Bill, if, as he understood the land fund was no longer to be used for main roads. It would be unjust to refuse the Government money to keep up the roads. It was no doubt impleasant to be taxed ; he himself disliked.it as much as any onej but he could not conceive a fairer tax than the one proposed. Mr. levine said that the shoe would most pinch the Napier people ; and he was bound to do his utmost to show that it would pinch only a few. There were seven 'busses and ten carts running, in town, the owners of which would not pay a single farthing towards the repair of the roads. It was his opinion that the rate, if levied, would not exceed £700 per annum, and they.T^o.uld not get a collector for less than '£$&Q per annum profit. The Napier people, as a rule, rode out on Sundays— they might see hundreds of horses out on that day — whereas country people were • ridiug every day, over any extent of made road. It was impossible to prevent the Maories or any one else from riding along the beach under high- water mark. Mr. Wood said it was his determination to oppose the Bill in its present shape. The non. member for the Wairoa had said he could not conceive a tax more fair. He (Mr. Wood), on the contrary, could not conceive one more unfair or inequitable, — one which would press more unovenly upon the community. The residents of Napier would be completely cooped up by this tax. The small farmers . in Meanee were now' struggling for an existence, and the proposed tax would press severely upon them. He must confess himself in the dark as to the data upon which the Government calculations had been made, but if any such sum as £2300 was to be raised, £2000 would be contributed by Napier and its vicinity. . There was no schedule to the bill, but if the tolls were to be the same as the ferry punt rates, milkmen, small farmers, and others who had to come to town daily would be taxed to an extent equal to £20 yearly. To many, indeed, it would ope- ' rate as a prohibitory tax. It would also press heavily upon the settlers on the Papakura Block, who had. 2s. an acre to pay for roads, and would have to pay the toll besides, while all the time they had no means of access to their farms. On these and other grounds he would oppose the Bill in its present shape. Mr. Buchanan said the proposed bill was intimately connected with the s*financial5 * financial position of the province for .the present year. If they looked at the items on the credit side of the Government sheet, it showed how their whole scheme was arrived at— in patchwork. He objected to discuss the financial scheme of the Government piecemeal. He did not .attribute any blame to the Government in the matter; there might be other ways of meeting the difficulty : but they certainly, should have the whole Government pro- , posals before them. His opinion was that, the matter had better be postponed until the Superintendent's return. He had often heard that gentleman express the interest he took in small farmers ; so they might have the benefit of his opinion and possibly of his vo.te. (Ilear, hear.) He did not say they would get it, but they might. Hewould ' ask the hon. member for Porangahau (Mr. Ormond) whether he would postpone the consideration of the bill. Mr. Oemond said he preferred to go on with the measure. Mr. Buchanan said Mr. Ormond had stated the amount of the tolls collected to be £2000 Der annum. He (Mr. Buchanan) could distinctly statethat the tolls collected from the Ngarurorb punt had never ex- . . ceeded £500 per annum ; therefore the difference would be made up by the Meanee settlers and residents of ,Napier. Therefore Meanee and Napier were taxed for the% general benefit. It was with a view of eliciting the true principle of the case that he had drafted the first resolution.. He had also seen that the Government found it difficult to obtain funds ; and he had thought it might be necessary to have some means of raising funds with the view of aiding them; for this reason he had drawn up the second resolution. He had nanred those distances which he thought would prove the best division ; but he had no objection to accept any' amendment ■ which might extend it 'to Havelock or anywhere else, as far as he was concerned. It was the principle of the matter he cared about, that the amounts' collected should be spent iv some clearly constituted district, or handed over to a Trust for ex- . penditure. It had been said that a nuniT ber of persons from town were the most frequent travellers on these roads ; but he would remind them that it was not horsemen who cut up .the roads, but the heavy . drays with narrow tires from the interior that did the injury. The injury done by horsemen was trifling indeed compared to that done by the heavily loaded drays. He thought the second resolution might meet the views of the Government and at the same time do justice to the town and sur- ' rounding districts. He would confess that he was bound by a pledge to oppose the Bill, on behalf of the Meanee settlers. It was the only pledge with which he had entered that House, and he was bound to fulfil it. Ho moved the following resolutions standing in his name : — 1. That the establishing a Toll-gate for mere revenue purposes, the levies at which it should be contemplated applying to general, instead of to particular and specially denned purposes, would be inequitable, and press unevenly on a section of the community. 2. That if a Toll-gate be established at or near the town boundary, it is the opinion of this Council that the dues collected thereat . ought to be applied to the maintenance of the roads between Napier and Ngaruroro Bridge and Tareha's Bridge, and the Eastern base of the Puketapu hills. Colonel Whitmoee suggested a postponement. Mr. Okmond said it was better to proceed with the Bill. The result would give the Government some requisite information in framing their financial scheme,. Major Lambeet would be glad to do without fixe Bill, but he saw clearly they must have it. It was quite competent H>r the' member for Napier Country to leave -the matter of heavy drays in the hands of the • committee, who would put a tax upon narrow tires. He considered Meanee had been a most favored distriot (No, no.) He said yes. The settlers there had had the free use of a bridge for the last seven, years which had cost £900 or £100. He did not think it the duty of the Council to provide for any particular district, but for the whole province. People who rode on horseback on Sunday coiua afford to pay, , 6d toll. It would not be difficult, to guesfl where some individuals were" riding to on.

Sundays, from the pace they went ; for ids own part he took great care to keep away from the White Eoad on that day (Laughter.) He had heard many members of that Council at one time or another take up the cause of the " poor farmer," the "struggling farmer. Why tike very men spoken of were some of them the richest in the province. It was not four months since a portion of the hon. member for Havelock's constituency, wanted to repudiate their bargain, and he (Major Lambert,) would put a double tax on those gentlemen for the trouble they had given. As to the Meanee, the traffic was increasing wonderfully. On the road to that place they would meet horsemen, carriages — why every twentieth man in Napier was a carriage man — and surety a person who kept his carriage could afford to, pay toll for it (Laughter.) He could understand the hon. members being anxious for their respective districts ; and no doubt the member for Napier Country was doing his duty, though he questioned whether the hon. member in his heart did not consider it a fair tax. He would support the Bill unless they could shew him a better way of getting the money. He had no love himself for toll-gates ; he would ride a mile any time to avoid one (Laughter.) Mr. Weston would support the Bill ; it was an equitable tax, easily collected. He would advocate the sum being given to the general revenue ; he thought necessity required such a course. Mr, Sutton would vote against the Bill. He agreed with the hon. member (Mr. Buchanan) that Napier and surrounding districts would pay nine-tenths of the revenue collected. • He would support the • amendment ; for he looked upon tolls as a necessity. The country roads should be kept in repair by country boards. Mr. Carlyon said they were trying to set . up what England had abandoned. Railways had superseded tolls, and all tolls . pressed on the agriculturist ; but in New ' Zealand they had got to begin as England had done. There were only two ways of doing it. If the roads had been laid out before the land had been sold, the increase in value of the adjacent lands would have provided the Government with funds to do it. He would vote for a toll-gate against rates ; the latter required heavier machinery to work properly. He would like to see more tolls. He could not see where the difference existed between the agriculturist and the merchant ; the principal part of the profits on the goods conveyed to and from the interior went into the merchants' pockets. The class the tolls might come hard upon were the pleasure seekers ; though fie was puzzled to - imagine where all oi them were. He had always considered the people of Napier a hard worked community ; and thought no one lived there solely for pleasure — such a thing he believed to be a sheer impossibility (Laughter.) During the last three months several men in his district had been ruined through the want of roads. Mr. Tanneb would oppose tne * bill. Between the town and Ngaruroro Bridge the road was worse than in any other place in the province. It was not fair to propose^putting the amount down to general revenue ; they ought to use the sums within a certain radius of their collection. He would accept the resolutions, as they stood. More money was required on the roads mentioned than on any road in the inland districts. He agreed with his friend and colleague (Mr. . Carlyon) that tolls were a better mode of taxation than rates. . ' Major Lambeet wished to know whether, in the event of the resolutions being carried, they would 'supersede the bill. The Speakeb said they would be established as part of the principle of the bill. Mr. Buchanan : But the bill will be modified according to the tenor of the resolutions. Mr. Dolbel moved an amendment extending the boundaries of the district named in the resolutions. Col. Whitmobe objected to all the money being • spent on small pieces of road, such as those indicated. Mr. Buchanan could not withdraw the resolutions ; he did not object to an amendment changing the road or altering it; what he wanted to affirm was the principle. The Speakeb thought the matter would be better dealt with in committee ; it was quite competent for them to do so. He was afraid they had drifted into an irregularity, out of which he could not see his way very clearly if the hon. members pressed, their resolutions. He would suggest an adjournment, to enable them to consider the matter. On the motion of Mr. Buchanan, the Council adjourned at six o'clock, for an hour. The Council met again at seven o'clock. Mr. Ibvine moved, as an amendment, " That the .further consideration of 'the bill be postponed until the Highways Act be disposed of." Mr. Dolbel withdrew his amendment, and substituted another, " That the bill be read this day six months." Mr. Rhodes suggested tnat if hon. members would withdraw their resolutions, and allow the bill to go into committee, it would greatly facilitate business. He thought if the districts would be content to receive the amounts collected from them in tolls for their roads, the Government would make an excellent bargain ; but they would soon find the amount in- „ sufficient. It would not pay on the road from Napier to Ng^rororo, andfromNga- ';' ruroro to Havelock ; but if the residents considered it would be to their advantage, the Govefiimcnt would be perfectly satisfied, and would offer no objections. He thought it useless debating now/ what would have to be debated in committee. Mr. Buchanan said it remained with the gentlemen who had moved the amendments to decide whether they would press them or not. The resolutions should be ' affirmed previous to the bill being read a second time. The Speakeb : In that case you would not be able to deal with them in committee. Mr. Ibvine couldnotwithdraw his amendment. It had been said that in twelve months hence there would be no Provincial Councils. In that, case, where would the money collected under the proposed bill go to P Why, to Wellington. (Hear, hear, and No, no.) Such had been the case in former times, and they ought to be cautious. Major Lambebt said they were not certain the Highways Bill would be passed. He for one nopedit would not. Colonel Whitmobe • said if the hon. member (Mr. Buchanan) only pressed his resolution, to affirm the principle, he would not object to it. He had no doubt the Government would like to know the opinion of the Council to guide 'them in their financial scheme. He again suggested a postponement. „ Mr. Weston advocated going on with the bill. : Major Lambebt could not see what other bills had to do with this one. The ' Highway Boards were to provide for district roads ; the Government for trunk roads. ,. He did not think the Highways JBill would pass ; it was a mere mockery. .He. thought they- were acting wrong and ■■losing, an, immense deal of time; they jsjiquTd; either read the bill now or that day

six months. They, could debate it in comMr. Buchanan said he should have liked to hear the speech of the hon. member before the division on the second reading of the District Roads Bill had been taken. The hon. member had voted against him, and now spoke in his favor. Major Lambebt corrected the hon. ber. He had voted with him. (Laughter.) Mr. Buchanan begged pardon. He was unwittingly attackuig one of his own supporters. (Renewed laughter). V Mr. Obmond said, in reply, if the amendment of the member for Mohaka (Mr. Dolbel) were pressed, it would be a curious rider to the resolutions. He hoped the Council would not agree to any postponement of the Bill. There was little business to do this week, and hon. members were anxipus to get back to their various avocations. Until this question was settled it was impossible for the Government to bring down any definite proposals of finance. As the matter stood at present, it appeared to be wavering from side to side, and the hon. member (Mr. Buchanan) might Have a majority in his favor, while if he waited until Tuesday he would' have the Superintendent's vote against h\m. (Laughter). So far as the Government was concerned, whether the toll dues were available to the general revenue or not, was a matter of comparative indifference. But he might say that, if not, Meanee would not get anything like the amount the Government intended to grant, merely out of the tolls. He thought the hon, member representing that district (Mr.-Buchanan) would find that the G-o-^ vernment were prepared to grant more than the hon. member asked for. They were going to bring down some large proposals to the Council, especially regarding Meanee, which had suffered from the floods. He had no right to make this statement prematurely, but it was a forcible argument, and therefore he used it. If the resolutions were carried, the Government would be content, though he should vote against the resolutions. His estimate of the amount to be derived from toll dues had been termed excessive ; he had mislaid the memorandum, but the following were items he could vouch for : two successive ferrymen at the punt had realised £800 in one year, a,fter paying rent, &c. This amount, of course, would under the Bill contribute towards the estimated sum for toll dues. He had also been assured by the Provincial Engineer that the receipts from other sources would make up the aifference between that sum and the amount estimated. From . that officer's experience, he was probably better qualified than any other person to speak on the matter; and the estimate was acknowledged to be rather below than above the mark. These receipts would be nett. Thus the Government had a right to consider their proposal a fair one. As to the remark that the money would go to Wellington, the tendency was rather to localise the money by giving districts the control. Mr. Buchanan said it was special taxation. Mr. Obmond said special taxation would be all they would have to rely on soon, and it would be more to their advantage than the present system. He would move the second reading of the Bill. Mr. Buchanan said the hon. member was premature ; the original question had not been put. The amendment must be put first, and he" claimed his right to speak to it. Mr. Obmond objected, on a point of order. He was replying, after the question was closed. Mr. Buchanan referred the matter to the Speaker's decision. He had not spoken to the amendments, and had a right to do so. Mr. Obmond said the last amendment was the one in possession of the House, and the debate should be confined to that. jN"o new matter should be introduced. The Speaker said he should put the amendments seriatim, in the inverse order to which they had been moved, and no further debate could take place when they had been once put. Mr. Buchanan urged his right of reply on principle, and said it was owing to the want of order in proceeding that the question had arisen. The Speaker doubted whether any one could keep order there except the hon. member himself or the Speaker of the House of Commons. (Laughter). Mr. Wood said the hon. member for Porangahau had himself introduced new matter into his speech to which there had been no opportunity of replying. For the first time he had given the data upon which the government framed their estimate — an estimate which more than one hon. member was prepared to prove quite fallacious. The Speaker said there was scarcely one hon. member who had not with great ingenuity introduced new matter in his remarks. Major Lambebt said the mistake was in •the Speaker permitting the license. . The Speakeb said those who had sat in that chair before, and therefore ought to be the first to support him, were the foremost in infringing the rules. Major Lambebt said there was no doubt for whom that observation was intended — ■ it was meant for himself. He" had supported the Speaker to the fullest extent ; but it rested with the Speaker to enforce strict order in that house. It was a mistake to suppose • he did not bow to the speaker's decision. Let them adhere to the laws laid down in "May" and the rules of the House.The Speakeb said he was not in the position of Speakers in other places who received a salary and devoted a large portion of their time to the study of Parliamentary practice. He looked to the House to assist him ; he was anxious to admit of free discussion, and he expected gentlemen quoting from " May," to point out' from whence they were quoting. He could only say that if the Council were not satisfied with his conduct in" that chair he was always ready to return the trust into their hands ; but while he occupied that position he expected to be assisted in his efforts to keep order. If an injustice had been done to any hon. member, it was unwitting on his part; he had always endeavored to decide as fairly as possible (Hear, hear.) Major Lambeet said they looked to the Speaker to keep them in order. Mr. Rhodes. — I rise to order. Major Lambeet : So do I. If a member wishes to make an explanation, he has a perfect right to do so. The Speakeb (to Major Lambert :) I have to request you to sit down, otherwise I shajl be obliged to call you by name. Major Lambebt : — You will have to shew cause first. Mr. Buchanan said he had from special circumstances taken an interest in such matters; and if it was in the Speaker's mind that he had not afforded him the assistance he ought to have done, he was very sorry for it; but he had always endeavoured to afford him support and assistance.. He could not foresee what would crop up in discussion, and it was only when the facts occurred that he could take action on them, and give his opinion on them. (The hon. member here read an extract from " May's Parliamen-tary-Practice," pointing out the necessity of understanding the rules of putting reso-

JLJLA.IT4 •»-*•■*.-». » T .■■».■■■« «n^ lutions and amendments at public meetings.) If suon rules were necessary for public meetings, how much more so were they for legislative bodies, however small and insignificant. The Speaker said he was unable hurriedly to find any precedent ; and if no other course were taken, he must ask the Council to adjourn to give him time. A bulky volume'like that wasnottobeperused in a few minutes. His impression was that when the whole question had been debated, the amendments should be put seriatim. Mr. Tanner hoped that, to save time, the hon. member (Mr. Ormond) would hear what the hon. member for Napier Country )Mr. Buchanan} had to say. He . would suggest that they might go on with the discussion, and establish the point of order afterwards. Mr. Buchanan claimed the right of speaking to the amendment. He did not wish to press his claim ; it was the principle that ne was anxious to have decided. The Speaker said his impression was that the hon member was not competent to do so 5 but he could not be certain until he referred to May. That bulky text-book was quite a nightmare to- him. Mr. Buchanan was quite willing to leave the point in the Speaker's hands, and to go on with the amendments in inverse order. Mr. Ormond said he had long ago intimated his willingness to waive his objection. He would leave it to the Speaker to consider the matter and give his decision. $.■ Mr. Irvine's amendment, that the bill be postponed until the Highways Bill be disposed of, was put and lost, on the following division :— Aybß— B. Noes— l 3. Messrs. Irvine, Messrs. Parsons, Whitmore, Kennedy, Dolbel. Rhodes, Carlyon, Locke, Weston, Buchanan, Lambert, Tiffen, . Ormond, Wood, Sutton, • Tanner. Mr. Dolbel's amendment, " That the bill be read this day six months," was also put and lost, on the following division : — Ates— 5. Noes— ll. Messrs. Buchanan, Messrs. Whitmore. Dolbel, Sutton, Inine, Parsons, Tiffen, Kennedy, Locke. Rhodes, Carlyon, Weston, Tanner, Lambert, Ormond, Wood. Mr. Buchanan's first resolution was then put, and the numbers proved equal, viz. : — , Ates— B. Noes— B. Messrs. Buchanan, Messrs, Ormond, Locke, Weston, Sutton, * Oarlyon, Irvine, Rhodes, Wood, . Kennedy, Parsons, Whitmore, Tiffen, Tanner, Dolbel. Lambert. The Speaker gave his casting vote with the noes ; the resolution was therefore negatived. Mr. Buchanan's second resolution was put, and carried by a majority of two, the numbers being nine to seven, viz. : — Ates—9. Noes— 7. Messrs. Locke, Messrs. Ormond, Sutton, Weston, Irvine, Kennedy, Wood, Rhodes, • Buchanan, Carlyon, Parsons, Whitmore, Tiffen, Lambert. Dolbel, Tanner. The Toll-gate Bill, with the second resolution as a rider, was then reacLa secoud time. Mr. Obmond said the bill would require revision ; and moved that the House go into committee on the bill on Tuesday next. Motion carried. Adjournment of Cemeteries Bill. On the motion for going into adjourned committee on the Cemeteries Bill, Mr. Sutton proposed an adjournment till Tuesday next. He had that day seen the Eev. father Forrest, who said the bill had only just come into his hand ; and the public would no doubtlike to have an opportunity of perusing the provisions of the bill, which had not appeared in any paper. He would therefore move an adjournment with that object until Tuesday next. Major Lambbbt seconded the motion. Mr.- Wood suggested that an earlier day would equally answer the purpose. He was in possession of the views of the gentleman referred to, embodied in a petition. He would ask the suspension of the standing rules to enable him to present it, and thus put the Council in possession of the views of this section of the religious community. Mr. Sutton withdrew.'his motion. Mr. Obmond moved that the consideration of the bill in committee be an order of the day for to-morrow, which wasagreed to. • Mr. Wood moved the suspension of standing order 85, in order that he might present the petition, which was agreed to. He then presented the petition, which was from certain members of the Roman Catholic Church. It prayed that the Bill before the Council might be so amended as to permit of each denomination having the sole management of the portion of any burial ground set apart for its use. Also that denominations might not be debarred from erecting a dividing fence, which, in the Roman Catholic communion, was essential before a burial ground could be consecrated. The petition, he said, was signed by five persons, but it was got up in a hurry, and if it could have been reserved until the next day, numerous signatures would have been attached. He would move that the petition be read (which was done) and received. Mr. Kennedy seconded the motion, which was agreed to, and the petition received accordingly. Mr. Obmond then moved that the Council do t adjourn, which was carried, and the Council adjourned at 9 o'clock.

THURSDAY, OCTOBER 4.

The Speaker took the chair at 3 o'clock. Present, all the members. The minutes of the previous sitting were read and confirmed. Point of Order. The Speaker said before they proceeded with the business of the day, he would give his decision on the point of order which, had been submitted to him on the previous day. He had been unable to ascertain the exact ruling of the authority (May's Parliamentary Practice) on the subject ; but he had made extensive enquiries, and their result confirmed him in the opinion he had entertained the day before: — that the mover of an original motion had the right to reply after the amendments had been discussed. In the present instance the' hon. member for Porangahau (Mr. Ormond) had distinctly stated that he was about to reply ; therefore he was entitled to close the debate. He ruled, and should enforce it as long as he had the honor to occupy that chair, that the mover of an original motion had a right to reply after 'all amendments had been made. Mr. Buchanan asked if the right of 'speaking to an amendment was debarred P The Speaker : Certainly not.

Mr, Buchanan : In the event of an original motion being put without remark, and an amendment moved. . without any reply, was discussion on an amendment to be taken as right of reply upon the original motion P Was not the object of an amendment to set aside an original motion ? Mr. Carlyon : It ought to amend, the original motion. Mr. Buchanan asked the Speaker for his opinion. . The Speaker : The original motion is in abeyance for the time being. • There was no right of reply on amendment. Mr. Buchanan said the mover of an amendment might simply move it, and reserve his remarks. The Speaker said his decision was that the mover of the resolution had the final reply. The subject then dropped. Liabilities of Province. Mr. Buchanan moved, — That there be laid on the table of thia Oounoil a statement in full detail of the outstanding liabilities of the Provincial Government of Hawke's Bay, made up to the 30th September, distinguishing suoh as are abso' lute and defined from approximate and contingent oharges only. Mr. Buchanan, in moving that, said it was desirable to obtain some estimate of this kind before going into committee of supply. He did not require detailed particulars ; for instance, in the .amount of salaries paid to Government ompers all he required was the aggregate amount, and not the individual sum paid to each officer. He also wanted the total amount due for works, and the amounts due to storekeepers • and others in payment of works. Coming down to that House he had.heard a well-known storekeeper, who had been drawn upon for payments due to' workmen, say that he could not obtain repayment from Government. He wished for the return that he might know the exact liabilities of the province. Mr. Ormond said the return was being ?repared, and would be laid on the table, 'he Government had no cognisance of the manner in which the gentleman who had charge of the roads paid his employes ; they left that to him both for his convenience and their own. If any other course were adopted a Paymaster would be 'required. A return showing the liabilities of the province was being prepared. Mr. Buchanan said if the Provincial Engineer was in possession of the information, the Government could surely get it. If he was not, his accounts must be in a state of confusion. Mr. Ormond said the Provincial Engineer had the requisite information. Mr. Buchanan : In that case it was scarcely consistent with official etiquette to say the Government had not the information, seeing that their offiqer could at once give it. He thought the Council would agree with him that it was desirable to have the information. He wished for the return in the shape for which he had moved. Motion carried. Inspector of Sheep. Mr. Buchanan moved — That a copy of any correspondence existing in regard to the filling of the appointment of assistant sheep inspector be- laid on the table. — He said that it was requisite to have the information, in the event of a new bill being introduced. Mr. Obmond said the information he had to give was not of much service. The Inspector of Inland districts was appointed Inspector of Southern Districts, on condition that he resided at Napier ; he accepted the appointment on condition of being allowed to reside at Havelock. Motion carried. Road through the Forty-Mile Bush. Major Lambeet moved — That a Return be laid on the table shewing the total cost of the road through the 40-mile Bush, from where it enters the Bush to the confines of the Province, shewing the amount paid to the surveyor for laying out and surveying the road, &c. ; also, the amount paid to the person who superintended the making of the said road, and at the rate per diem. — He said that he applied for this return from reports made to him of the bad state of the road, which was next- to no road at all. A large sum of money had been expended, considerably over what had been granted by the Council. They might guess what sort of a road it was when people had to make a • pathway through the bush. The causes of the great expenditure were inefficient workmen and superintendence. Soldiers had been employed who knew nothing about the matter; he had been assured, although he could not vouch for it, that two contractors had done as much in a week as fprty soldiers in a fortnight. The road had not been carried out as it had been designed. The gullies and creeks were full of rotten timber, and it- was difficult to extricate horses. Mr. Oemond had the return asked for, and would lay it on the table when he replied. The total cost of the road had been £2758 ; amount paid to surveyor, £115 10s. ; survey expenses, £204 ; rate per diem paid to overseer, 10s. ; exploring the line, 12s. per diem. The overseer was not new to the work ; he had been .ganger, or, rather, overseer of road parties in Wellington. The provincial overseer had informed him that the road was greatly improved ; the overseer had done a great deal of good. He (Mr. Ormond) had not seen the road for five months, but he should have thought the hon. member (Major Lambert) would have entertained a better opinion of men he had formerly commanded than to have credited the story of the two contractors doing more in a week than forty soldiers in a fortnight. (Laughter). Such an informant was unworthy of confidence. The road was forty feet wide, and he understood was clear, except where trees might have fallen across. The road was open as a sheep- driving road, and if the accounts of the ColHngwood diggings proved correct, it might be turned to account next year. Major Lambert said all must admit that the hon. member had made a most ingenious defence. He did not complain of the Provincial Engineer not superintending, but that he had not time to do it. Were three visits from that gentleman sufficient for an expenditure of £1,100 ? Mr. Ormond : £2,700. Major Lambert had thought it was only £1,100. It was a serious matter. The Deputy- Superintendent or Superintendent should have visited the road themselves. He asked whether the chief officer of the Government should not visit a part of the province where £2000 was being spent over the Council grant of £600. - Motion carried. Appointment of a Special Constable at Hampden. Major Lambert moved — For the correspondence relative to the appointment of Mr. Limbrick aa a special Constable at Hampden. — He said that the landlord of a publichouse had been sworn in as special constable in the case mentioned. ' He had asked the Resident Magistrate, who knew nothing of the matter. Did the Government, think that a person, who was, no doubt, ready to shout a "nobbier" or

t wo, could very well take his friends into .custody for being drunk.' He did not think it proper that the appointment should have been made without the Magistrate kn owing anything of it. Mr. Uarlyon seconded the motion. His opinion was that all subordinate Government appointments should be made in the manner adopted in. every other province, viz., that the candidates should have their recommendations endorsed by the representatives of the district, or the Justices of the Peace. In this case, the Government had made the most improper appointment that could have been made. He (Mr. Carlyon) lived within three miles of the public-house in question, and it was a very badly conducted house ; in fact, so far as he (Mr. Carlyon) understood, the license would be in imminent peril on the next occasion of its requiring renewal. Mr. Rhodes said, as far as he knew, it was the practice of the Government in every case where a vacancy was filled up, to have the recommendation .backed by a number of resident householders. Mr. Caelyon: No doubt plenty of householders could be got ; I said- Justices of the Peace. Mr. Rhodes :' Where there were no Justices of the Peace, the Government required the names of influential men in the district. As far as regarded the present case, he knew nothing of the man in question. The Superintendent 'had made the appointment, and directed ,tho Inspector of Police to swear the man in. Colonel Whitmoee said unless the Justices of the Peace were consulted in these matters, it would be a great' blow to the institution. They had not half enough employment ; and, as a very useful body, deserved greater encouragement. Mr. Ormond said the person in question • had formerly been a shoemaker in .Napier, where he bore a good character, and afterwards a shoemaker of Hampden. It was on the supposition that he still followed that callingthat the appointment was made. It would have been far better if the residents of the district had reported the facts '. of the case to the Government; He admitted it was an improper appointment, and had they known the truth of the mat--1 ter, it would have been immediately can- ' celled. . However, he would undertake . that that step should be taken at once. Major Lambert had not spoken.* of the man's character, but of the fact of his keeping a public house. ■ ' Loan Act Amendment ■ Mr. Buchanan moved : — . For leave to introduce a Bill further to amend the Loan Act, 1863. — If it were possible to repeal the Loan Act of 1863 with any effect he would do i so ; he would like to prevent borrowing i money at all ; but as he could not do that' • he wished to alter the schedule of the Act . ; so that the residue of the loan could be . subject to annual appropriation. In seve- • ral instances the original appropriations . were no longer requisite ; in others the i objects aimed at had been already carried out. His. object was, when the amount was obtained, to carry it to ordinary revenue, and disburse it under votes of the house, thus giving the new members an opportunity of expressing their opi- ; nions. ; Mr. Weston seconded the motion. i Mr. Ormond said he should not offer any opposition to the introduction of the i Bill, but reserve his remarks for the second [ reading, to which however he could not agree. Ono thing he would state, if this > principle were carried out, the Bill -would > be disallowed. The General Government ■ would appropriate the money, and the , hon. member who introduced the Bill ; would, find himself disappointed. l Leave granted ; Bill read a first time ; ordered to be printed ; and its second reading made an order of the day for Wednesday next. Committee of Supply. Mr. Ormond wished to postpone the j motion standing in his name — that the , House go into Committee of Supply — until • next day. He had not obtained the.neces- . sary figures from the Treasurer to enable [ him to make the statement usual upon : such occasions. Motion carried. l Cemeteries Bill in Committee. > The House then resolved itself into ; Committee on this Bill. On the second clause being read, Mr. l Wood moved the first of a series of amend- } ments based upon the petition of members l of the Roman Catholic communion. l Mr. Ormond suggested to the member ■ for Havelock the advisability of further L postponing the Bill. The amendment in- • volved an important change, and the Go- • vernment would like to consult the Pro--5 vincial Solicitor. s Mr. Wood moved accordingly that the ■ consideration of the Bill in committee be '> postponed until next day. The Chairman then reported progress. 1 Schedule of Toll-gate Bill. Mr. Wood, by permission of the Council, asked the Government when the schedule [ to the Toll-gate Bill would be brought L down. ; Mr. Ormond said that the charges , would be those of the old ferry punt. | Mr. Wood thought they should be em- . bodied in a schedule and made public. Was it intended that the charges should [ be made for going and returning the same [ day, as was the case with the ferry punt ? Mr. Ormond answered in the negative. Petition. \- -Mr. Wood obtained the suspension of ' standing rule 85, with the view of present--1 ing a petition from James Ashton, one of ' his constituents, setting forth certain losses he had sustained through his paddock hav--1 ing for some months been used as a public L road. Upon finding that it prayed for 1 compensation, which was against the stand--1 ing rules, he withdrew the petition. 1 The Council adjourned at a-past 4 ; FRIDAY, OCTOBER 4. I The Council 'met at 3 o'clock. Present , all the members. Telegraph Station. [ Mr. Carlyon moved, — That this Counoil present a petition to the 1 Colonial Secretary in favour of an electric telegraph station being located at Waipawa in preference to Waipukurau. Agreed to on a division — Major Lambert being the only member who voted in , the negative . Want of Confidence. ; Mr. Buchanan moved, — 1. That the open and unaquivooal avowal ) of hostility to provincial institutions uttered s within the Chamber by tho member for ; Porangahau, and tacitly assented to by tho members for Clive and Napier, is held to be adverse to the true interests of this province, and, in consequence, deprives those gentlef men of that free and full confidence as members of the Executive which they have hitherto enjoyed. •2. That the Speaker forward a copy of this 1 resolution to his Honor tho 1 immediately he returns from Wellington. A very long discussion ensued,' ending in the resolutions being negatived on a division — the only noes having been ; Messrs. Buchanan and Weston. Toll-gates Inland. , Mi 1 . Wood moved,— That in the opinion of this Council the

principle of levying money for the maintenance of trunk roads by means of tollgates should not be confined to the vicinity of Napier and Meanee,' but that tollgates should also be established at intervals on the made roads of the interior — say at the junction of the Middle and Te Aute roada, Paki Paid, Te Aute, Waipawa, and Eperairaa. Mr. Dolbel seconded the motion. After a long discussion, in ■which, strong opposition was offered, the motion was withdrawn. Committee of Supply. Mr. Ormond commenced his financial statement, but was interrupted at a late hour by a motion for adjournment till Tuesday. The Council then adjourned.