Thursday, January 21.

Hawke's Bay Herald, Volume 7, Issue 458, 23 January 1864, Page 3

Thursday, January 21.

THE-Council met at 11 o'clock. Present, — The Speaker and -fell the members. Privilege. Mr. Colenso, before the business proceeded, said he had to bring a question of privilege before the Council. In the Herald of yesterday it was reported that, after .he (Mr. Colenso) left the room, the member for Porangahau stated that what had just taken place was evidence of an " unseemly and factious opposition." He would ■wish to ask that member whether he made use of those words upon that question. Mr. Oemond said he had, and he thought them justly deserved. Mr. Colenso then referred the Council to May's Practice of Parliament, pages 78 and 85, in which the course was laid .down for dealing with a member who reflected upon the conduct of another member. [We could not follow the quotation, but understood that reflections of the na-ture referred to were, if proved, to be deemed a reflection upon the House itself.] He and tho ( se with whom he acted had done nothing that was E)ot strictly according to the standing rules and orders ; they had exercised one of those privilege! which appertained to their birthright as Englishmen ; they had done nothing but what they h£id a perfeot right to do — what was, in fact, their di\ty under the circumstances ; • and, he thought the member for Porangahau should be called upon to apologise for the remarks he had made. \ : Mr. Tiffin said that the -reason for the course adopted by himself and those who iv this matter acted with -him, was obvious. They had not seen the bill two hours, yet they were called upon to legislate upon it. As they were not strong enough to take any other action, their only course was to avail themselves of the privilege given by the standing rules, and withdraw. Mr. Edwaeds regre#ed that the member for Porangahau should hs*ye ma.de use of such .words..

He for one did not retire without just cause. The bill had not been placed in his hands five minutes before the Council was called upon to suspend the standing rules aud orders for the purpose of the bill being read a second time. A cursory glance at the bill, shewed him that it repealed several clauses of the original Act. That Aot he had not. seen, and could not get a copy of. . He left the house in order to get the information. Neither the Superintendent nor the Clerk could give him a copy, and it was only on application to the Speaker that he was enabled to get one. Mr. Tuke quite agreed with the member for Porangahau when he characterised the proceedings of members opposite as unseemly and factious opposition. In reality it was by way of retaliation for his having, the previous day, moved the adjournment of the Council in order to afford time for Mr. Ormond to come down — nothing else. Mr. Kennedy thought at first that the course pursued was factious opposition, but upon hearing what the circumstances were he was led to think otherwise. Mr. Colenso moved and Mr. Tiffen seconded that the words used by Mr. Tuke be taken down. — Taken down accordingly, Mr. Colenso said that the very fact of two points having been conceded — the suspension of the rules- to admit of the bill being brought in and read a first time — was sufficient to show'thatthe opposition was not factious. He complained of the charge having been repeated by another supporter of the government — virtually giving the lie to members on his side the house. He had no desire to stop the business, but if the expressions used were not withdrawn, he should be compelled to have the gallery cleared and the doors closed till the Council entered fully into the question. Mr. Ormond said that if any such reason as that given by the member for Napier (Mr. Edwards) had been given the day before for the course pursued, the words used by him would not have been used. Having heard tbat member's explanation, so far as he was concerned he (Mr. Ormond) retracted the expression ; and if the other members who acted with him would say that they did so from want of knowledge of the subject, and with no desire to impede the business of the Council, he would do so so far as they also were concerned. He thought. the Council would consider this a fair and reasonable offer. Mr. Colenso would assuredly make no such statement ; his mode of acting was sufficient to show that there was nothing factious in his conduct. He certainly thought that the Speaker should call upon the member for Porangahau to apologise. Mr. Tiffen mentioned that, some little time before the bill came before the Council, he attempted to take a copy of it, but was told by the Clerk that he had no orders to deliver them. Mr. Colenso drew the attention of the member for Porangahau to the fact that, in the House of Representatives, even after due notice had been given for the second reading of a bill, if a copy had not been long enough in the hands of members it was always postponed. Mr. FitzgeeALD was of opinion that the explanation offered by the member for Porangahau should be accepted. -...„.- Mr. Tuke had really believed the opposition to be factious, but after the statements that had been made totbe effect that the cause was want of information, he would willingly withdraw the words he had used. Mr. Rhodes said it seemed to him that some members were using words to conceal their thoughts. Statements had been made on the opposite side which were very wide of the truth. To-day it was stated that the cause of their extraordinary procedure was want of information. Yesterday they had no reason, whatever — there could not be a doubt of it. Had they given any, he, as a thoroughly independent member, was open to conviction. Twenty- four hours had been lost, and they were not, he would venture to say, a shade wiser than they were yesterday. He would not call it factious opposition, but If it was not he did not know what factious opposition was. After a little further discussion, — the Speaker asked Mr. Colenso if he wished to pursue the subject further. Mr. Colenso. — No ; and as I cannot espect'a better apology from the member for Porangahau I accept the one offered. Anothar case qf Privilege. Mr. Oemond said that, before going on to the regular business of the day, he also had a question of privilege to bring forward. It was well known that a member of this Council had, through the instrumentality of his colleague, the member for Napier (Mr Colenso) lost his seat under the Disqualification Act, as being the holder of an office of emolument in the Native Minister's department. He (Mr. Ormond) was now prepared to state that the member who had moved in this matter was himself in precisely the same position — he having, from 1861 to 1863,.received regular payments for. certain work done in the Postmaster-General's department. [Mr. Ormond here read the clauses of the Disqualification Act, and a series of documents shewing that Mr. Colenso had received emolument either at the rates of £25 or £30 a year for services as Interpreter to the Post Office, Hawke's Bay, from 1861 up to September 30, 1863.] Mr. Colenso was last elected a member on the 17th March 1863, at which time he was in receipt of such emolument. He (Mr. Ormond) had no objection to seeing that member in the Council — in fact he rather liked it than otherwise — but in the other House he would, in his place, state the. circumstances that had come to his knowledge. He would conclude by moving that, in the opinion of this Council, the seat of Mr. Colenso, member for Napier, has been vacated under the provisions of the Disqualification Act. Mr., Smith seconded the motion. Mr. Colenso pointed out that the motion was^ out of order. A breach of privilege, to be taken up at once, must be something , that had lately occurred. In this case the usual notice must be given. '.'.> The Speaker was clear that the motion was of no possible use. If the member was sitting here illegally it was his own look-out. Mr. Rhodes pointed out that the penalty, of £20 per diem was recoverable , by law, and that, probably, legal process would be aa easier method

, 6f settling the difficulty than any resolution the * i Council could arrive at. i Mr. Tlffen had at one time intended to put i a question to the Superintendent as to the vali- ,' dity.pf his seat for the Country District; but -came* to the conclusion that it was entirely a case , -(for the Supreme Court. It might be so in this iialso; He had no idea that this matter would be gone into with so. much acrimony. • Ths'Su^ERiNTENDENT sg*id that, having just beediref erred to, he would state that he did not reoeive, emolument of any kind, pension or otherwise,- from the General Government. When he iaccepted the office of Superintendent he relin•^uished all other emolument. Mr. Oemond said that the position of the Council was affected by this question, ass, if the member for Napier was really disqualified, every vote that he had given was an illegal one. He would like to hear a statement from that member himself —whether he is really disqualified, or if he evades the law under which he was instrumental in ejecting a brother member. Do unto others as you would be done by. The member for Te Aute had said there was some acrimony imported into the discussion. He (Mr. Ormond) could not see it at all ; he had simply done his duty.in the matter; and the member concerned • had- only himself to blame for his industry in bunding, the matter up for the sake of ousting his ■ colfeagiie'Py '"-; " 1 Mi\ L Colenso having been appealed to in this matter, wouldlsay a few words ; although he felt that he was condescending to notice anything so irregular as the proceedings of the member for Porangahau. Bitter reflections had been cast upon bim by that\member with reference to a gentleman whose seat in tbe Council had lately been rendered vacant. What he (Mr. Colenso) did in that matter he did out of the kindest possible interest towards that gentleman. He did not, in putting the question he did in the House, individualise any one ; he gave no name ; the terras of his question were in the plural ; and it was first suggested by seeing a printed return of the names of all persons receiving emolument under the Native Minister's department. As to the matter of the, statement that had been made affecting the validity of his seat in that Council, he would only say that he was no officer of the General Government— Dr. Hitchingswns. The member for Porangahau should know^that as well as any one., ' * . The Speakee here ruled that if any member had a' motion to make on this subject he must give notice, otherwise the matter must drop. The next notice on the paper was then proceeded with.