PROVINCIAL COUNCIL.

Hawke's Bay Herald, Volume 7, Issue 458, 23 January 1864, Page 2

PROVINCIAL COUNCIL.

Tuesday, Janttaey 19, 1864. ! (Proceedings continued from last Herald.) Delegated powers imder Native Land Purchase Ordinance. Mr. Colenso asked His Honor the Superintendent "whether the necessary powers have beendelegated to him by Hia Excellency the Governor to instruct the officer appointed under the Native Land Purchase Ordinance to lay informations against breakers of that Ordinance or whether that officer has power to lay such informations ab initio." He would merely remark that one of the former Superintandents Sid receive such delegated powers ; and that several members wished to know whether such powers had been delegated to the present Superintendent, or with whom they rested. The Superintendent said it would be necessary to trace the Ordinance from its commencement to see with whom rested the power. When first passed, it was not intended by the Government as an engine of oppression, and the powers it gave were limited to a very few, the then Surveyor General being one. Generally the power was retained in the hands of the General Government, with delegated powers to meet circumstances as they occurred — particular instructions being issued for particular cases. In this province he was only aware of one instance in which such instructions were given, and that was in the case of the member for Napier (Mr. Colenso). The powers held by the first Superintendent were, as was well known, taken away, and all proceedings stopped. . He was not aware of any further delegation having been made, and the Ordinance was virtually inoperative. But the General Government could at any time grant a fresh delegation or issue fresh instructions, as an Act to quite" a contrary tendency had not yet been proclaimed as in operation within the province. i Re-construction of Executive Coicncil. Mr. Colenso, pursuant to notice, rose to move, — j __ " That it is the opinion of this Council that (in Oraer iu<-, mow. effectually to support and strengthen the Provincial Crov cram ont, and also to satisfy a large body of the electors) His Honor the Superintendent be respectfully requested to consider the. reconstruction of his Executive Council, so that the principal interests of the Province may be fairly represented therein. And, also, that Mr. Speaker do forward a copy of this opinion of the Council to His Honor the Superintendent forthwith." — He confessed that, in rising to move this resolution, he did so with a certain amount of unpleasant feeling because he had a very unpleasant duty to perform. In one respect the new provinces were worse off than the old. In the latter it could be no unpleasant duty to reflect on the public character of a Superintendent, seeing that he was not present. In the new, unfortunately, the Superintendent took his seat as au ordinary member. In another respect, however, the new provinces had the advantage, inasmuch as there was less form in their proceedings, and they were a nearer approach to what was intended by the projectors of the constitution, by one of whom it was suggested that the position of the Superintendent might very properly be that of the chairman of a municipal body. - Before proceeding to the motion, he had a very few remarks to make in point. In a newspaper, acknowledged as the organ of the government, it had been said that he was one of an opposition, and likely to bring forward measures calculated to embarrass the position of the Government. What he had said in Auckland he would now repeat. First, he declared himself to be a Christian, and, as such, a hater of factious opposition ; second, he was a sworn subject of the Queen, and could not conceive the possibility of one who had taken the oath of allegiance being guilty of factious opposition to any government. The opposition which seemed to have fallen to his lot was rather like that offered to bad government by Cromwell and the heroic band who worked with him. Because he, who had now been in the province over twenty years, stood up in his place and exposed the mismanagement of its affairs which was now going on, — was he therefore to be charged with factious opposition, with seeking to embarrass the government? If the members of that government would pay a little attention to what he had to say they would find that he was very far from wishing to injure the province or to embarrass the government. He had heard a remark from the leader of the House of Representatives (Mr. Fox) which he would quote. Although Mr. Fox and himself had not generally pulled together, it was well known that he (Mr. Colenso) al- . ways supported the government of tbe day if its measures were calculated to benefit the colony or • the province. Mr. Fox, on one occasion when he -came out slashingly against a political opponent, said. there were but two courses open to a public man — either to be continually honest, without change, or to be eternally changing. His ,(Mr. Coleuso's) had been the former course, and he defied any man to shew to the contrary — to shew ■that he acted otherwise during the course of his ' political career The Speakee thought that the member fpr Napier was digressing from the subject. Mr. Colenso could not think that he was going beyond proper limits ; but, one word to you; Sir — Abide in your decisions by the standing rules and -orders, and if you don't know them make yourself acquainted" with them. The Speaker.— l do not require you to teach me my; duty. Mr. COLENSO maintained that he was perfectly . in order, and thought it very hard that a Speaker, by themselves to preserve order, should constantly interfere to prevent due freedom of speech. - w.* The StrPEEiNTENDENT-and several members,— • No, no.. . Mr. Colenso.-— The Superintendent says , No, but, he himself has been repeatedly stopped by ..the; Speaker. His (Mr. Colenso's) object was very ..apparent.. There was a saying that persons who ,; livedjin glass" houses should not throw Btones ; and Pie support' the resolution efficiently, ,s permitted to show that his motives it .forward were not what had been see (as we think) again requested

Mr. Colenso to confine himself to the subject under discussion. Mr. Colenso.— We. are legally met here, and I defy you, Mr. Speaker, I defy you. (Loud-cries of order). While I ara not infringing any- of the standing rules and orders ; while I know that I am speaking within due bounds ; while lam trenching upon no man's private character, — I defy you to put me down — I 'defy you, to do so; (A universal call to order.) ■'-„ Mr. Rhodes said that the only respect in. which the Speaker was wrong was in holding any parley at all with the member who had just sat down. The moment the word was said that that member was out of order, he should have at once obeyed. No one knew this better than the member for Napier himßelf, and he (Mr. Rhodes) hoped, now that he was comparatively calm, that he would acknowledge it. Mr. Colenso (resuming his speech) said that his only wish was to shew that he was not interested in any way in bringing this matter forward. He could not, and would not, indulge in factious opposition. It had been hinted also that he was actuated by a desire for the emoluments of office, and he now declared that he would never take office under any government in the province. Tbe motion now before the Council he was led to think of from what he had seen while' in Auckland. He would not now. say much in its support, seeing that he had the right of reply, and as he did not wish to say anything that would unnecessarily wound even the public feelings of any public man. But if any great opposition was offered to the motion— if more opposition was offered to it than what was reasonably fair, such as a renewal of the reflections cast upon himself by the member for Waipukurau, with reference to past times, and which had really nothing to do with the matter,— then he would bring up his little army of reserve. The subject of the constitution of the government of Hawke's Bay was much talked of in Auokland — in the committee rooms of the . General A.ssembly and elsewhere. The question was frequently put if it were possible. that the Superintendent and two members of the Executive were runholders, and upon his replying in the , affirmative the remark was made, — " Then Hawke's Bay is doomed." It was true that the two, members of Executive' tinder the first Superintendency were both runholders, but then the Superintendent himself was the 5 balance wheel, so that the town interests could not go to the wall. He called attention to the terms of the resolution — his expressed object being, not to weaken the government but to support and strengthen it, and also to satisfy a large number of the electors. These were getting more aud more dissatisfied day by day. On his return from Auckland he found a wonderful change in public opinion, as evidenced in the two last elections, such a thing as which, last year, would not even have been dreamt of. The Executive Council, it was well known, had been got up in a hurry. One gentleman who, according to report, was to have had a seat in it, was absent at the time. The principal interests of the province were three— the pastoral, the agricultural, and the commercial. In the Executive neither of the two last were represented. Hence, all that has been done has been done with a certain amount of -tincture"; human nature was human nature. After a pause,— Mr. Bousfleld seconded the motion. Mr. Tiffen could not vote for the resolution. It was due to the Superintendent that he should not be interfered with in the selection of his Executive, that he should be permitted those men with whom he thought he could best work. No doubt, though he (Mr. T.) and the members of the government were often to be found on different sides, they, ia many respects, thought alike. Although a member of the opposition, so called, it was not his wish to embarrass the government, and it would certainly embarrass the government if it were obliged to make any changes in the Executive. The present executive, he believed, had done their duty to the best of their ability. The Stjpeeintendent said that the motion, before the Council was one wholly without pre-^ cedent ; and it rnustbe admitted that the selection of the Executive was one of the prerogatives of the Superintendent, with which the Council should be chary of interfering. With regard to the selection of gentlemen to occupy the seats in the Executive, he could readily, if necessary, justify the course taken by the government. The Executive was not composed wholly of ruuholders, as had been stated. One of its members, at the last general election for Napier, stood at the head of the poll. He thought the motion was uncalled for— out of order. If at any time the Council wanted remodelling, he thought the Council might safely leave that to the Superintendent without assuming a tone of dictation. The resolution, if passed, would be a censure upon the Executive — the members of which were men well acquainted with the wants of the province and anxious to work for the general good. - One of its members, then absent from the Council, was also a member of the General .Assembly, ,where he had faithfully represented the interests of both constituencies. He believed that there was an identity of interest in the province, and that the best friends to the town were-the runholders. The Superintendent of Nelson had gone in upon the popular but false cry of the interests of the working man. One of his first steps was to reduce the price of land to five shillings an acre, ostensibly for the benefit of that class ; but, in reality, the measure benefitted the runholder alone, into whose hands the greater part of the land fell. With regard to "this ' district, if the matter were closely looked 'into, it would: .be found that the different interests were not adverse . to each other ; and he denied that the runholding class, with which the member for Napier had identified him, had any wish to injure th& working man ; on the contrary they would, ddt.what they could to advance his interests. Bcfqrc.the, present government existed the province hacl .been pretty well denuded of its lands ; and it ; was certainly not their fault that more could ,-'.nb"t W reserved for agricultural purposes. ,-* - Mr. Fitzgerald referred to clausal* of the! Executive Act which said that the Superintendent sfta^.apppint &c,>;- and, no resolution passed by the Council could be" put into force. There' was a good dieal of responsibility attached to the office of ; Superintendent^ ,- and he .. thought that; that officer should have the privilege of choosing his

own Executive. He would he glad to see the motion withdrawn. .... Mr. Tuke said that, from what he could gather, . this motion was intended as a vote of want • ofconfidence.in the government. (Mr. Colenso,— No. He hoped that the Council would pass nothing pf-thakind. ' ..!."'•" '. . Mr;-EHODES did riot" think that the resolution ■ was. brought forward as an expression of want of ■ • confidence iin the Executive ; but believed that theipresent string of motions had been got up just to make a little stir out of doors. He hoped it would not be withdrawn but put to the Council, a&jtye felt sure there would not be three votes in its favour. Even if it passed, however, it would be null and void. Mr. Colenso could not think of withdrawing the resolution. He did not intend it as a motion of want of confidence in the Executive ; and with regard to one of its members (Mr. Ormond) he would say that while the present Superintendent was in office he would be sorry to see that member out of it, as he was so well fitted to act with the head of the government. He was sorry that the government would not see the motion in its proper light. He brought it forward to allay dissatisfaction out of doors, and thus to strengthen the;government.. It was not, as had been said, j>uhprecedented.| the same thing had been tried ; ovelf-and over, again in Wellington. He (Mr. C.) had been described as trying to represent the runholding and town interests and clashing ; but that, in reality, the town was supported by the runholders. So it was, in a great measure ; he granted it. But had there been no runholders here at all, what then ? Why, instead of there being one homestead for every 20 or 30 miles of country there would have been hundreds. Of course the statement was true, but that matters could not be better was quite another question. The member for Clive had charged him with bringing forward these resolutions to court popularity. That was what he never sought after. He repeated that he meant no expression of want of confidence in the Superintendent, but only wished . to see him more ably supported than he was. : The question was then put, and the Council divided with the following result : — ! ! , Ayes— 2. "' Noes— ll. Messrs. Colenso Messrs. M'Lean Bousfield . Russell ' " " Edwards Kennedy Rhodes Smith Tiffen Curling Fitzgerald Tuke Dolbel Paid Officers in Council. Mr. Fitzgerald, pursuant to notice, moved that every officer appointed by the Superintendent and paid out of Provincial funds be disqualified from holding a seat in this Council." The resolution, he said, had been given notice of at last sitting of Council. He believed it spoke for itself. Mr. Tiffen said that, during last session, when he was a salaried officer of the government, he had been applied to to support this resolution and had agreed to do so, being at the same time quite prepared to make the necessary sacrifice himself. He said that out of a Council of 15, there were at least 4 paid officers — the Superintendent, the Commissioner of Crown Lands, the Provincial Treasurer and the Provincial Surgeon; and he could not see how such a body could act independently. He begged to second the motion. Mr. Colenso was at one time in favor of the principle of this motion ; but he must say that, from what he had heard and his reflections thereon, he had come to form a different opinion. In a small province like this, in particular, it was difficult to find suitable persons to fill any office . whatever. The subject had lately been discussed in the House of Representatives, in a motion to extencTTlie~Disqualificati6n Act to any person receiving emolument from the government. It was thrown out upon the principle he had already referred to — the difficulty in a small community of getting suitable persons to come forward at all, without excluding the class who were in receipt .of emolument from the government. On the question of excluding paid officers from the Council, he might state that for some years he was both a paid officer and a member of that Council, and although he was not then exactly so much in opposition as he was now, yet he was very near it. On no occasion whatever did he allow bis position as a servant of the government to direct him in the course he took, or the vote he gave, upon' any public question. He trusted there were some present who would bear him out in that assertion. Having heard the question so lately argued in another house he would feel it his duty to vote against the resolution. . The Superintendent said that, as had been explained by the mover and seconder, there might at,dhe time.have, been a necessity for such.areso-.. ■ futio.il as this, from the number of paid officers in the Council. As it happened that, now, there was only, one, himself, he trusted the motion would he withdrawn till next meeting of Council. Mr. Fitzgerald had carefully worded the motion, so that it might not be supposed that he meant to imply the Superintendent. He was not wedded to the resolution, and, if it was the feeling of the Council that it should be withdrawn, he had no objection. The Speakee was about to put the motion for withdrawal,, when one of the members (Mr. Bousfield) gave a premature " aye " to the original motion, upon which the Speaker ruled thathe must put the question. Having done so, a division was called for, with the following result :— ;> ' Ayes— s. Noes— B. - ■ • .>;j Messrs. Bousfield Messrs. McLean l{- ! - ,-.._ : Tiffen Rhodes . '. „-,... Edwards, Kennedy ; ' : Tuke ;> „ ■ _£,'..' ' 'Colenso -Fitzgerald "" ' ; Smith : v Dolbel .. **;. ; „ ... ' Curling Russell The motion was accordingly negatived. • , ; - Adjournment. Mr. Rhodes moved an adjournment till next

I I II IB—— I J -m__--mmm*mmM_-l day, which was carried on a division. Inconsequence, the following motions lapsed : — Me. Fitzgerald :— _„. ; " That it is expedient the msMjggment of the Waste Lands of the Province shtulbe' vested in a Board, to consist of not less than three and not more than five members." Me. McLean :— " To move for leave to bring in an " Amended Loan Bill." Wednesday, January 20. The Council met at 11 o'clock, pursuant to adjournment from the day before. Present all tha members. Seventy -mile Busk. Mr. Tiffen, pursuant to notice, rose "to ask the Superintendent what steps (if any) have been taken by the Government for purchasing the 70---mile bush." — His object in putting this on the notice paper was simply to ascertain the views of the government as to what prospect there was of being able to acquire land in this locality for the use of the future military settlements. The Superintendent said the Government was most anxious to acquire the Seventy-Mile Bush, and would now be in negociation for such acquisition but for the absence of one of the principal owners, who was engaged in a native feud at Rangitikei. Pultetitiri Reserve. Mr. Tiffen, pursuant to notice, rose to "ask the Superintendent whether any attempt has been made to purchase the land in dispute at Puketitiri, adjoining the native reserve of 500 acres." He put this question more by way of jogging the memory of the Superintendent, than with any other object. The Superintendent said that terms had been offered by the government, but these had not yet been accepted by tbe principal chief interested. It was a simple question as to the acreage of the reserve, and efforts had been made to buy the reserve itself as the preferable course. When the native owners were prepared to accept the sum offered by the government, he would lose no time in closing with them. Abstracts qf Receipt and Expenditure. Mr. Colenso, pursuant to notice, rose to "ask his Honor the Superintendent why the usual quarterly Provincial abstracts of receipts and expenditure, now extending over three quarters, have not been published in conformity with the resolution of the Provincial Council." — His Honor, he said, was aware that a resolution of the Provincial Council had been passed — introduced, he believed, by the member for Porangahau, and since studiously acted upon. There might be a difficulty as to publishing the abstract for the third quarter, but the other two seemed to have been wholly omitted from the Gazette. The Supeeintendent said that, through inadvertence on the part of the government, the abstracts referred to had not been duly published. His attention had been drawn to the fact by the Provincial Treasurer, and he had given immediate instructions to have them prepared for publication. The sitting of Conncil intervening, this had not yet been done, but they had been laid on the table for the information of members. Accounts of tlie Province. Mr. Colenso, pursuant to. notice, rose to " ask His Honor the Superintendent why the accounts of the Province, being only for six months, have been prepared by the Provincial Auditor and now laid on the table." The accounts for six months had been laid on the table through the Speaker, which was the proper channel ; but, according to the Audit Act, the only accounts to be laid on the table were for the financial year. The course taken of withholding the quarterly abstracts from publication in the Gazette, and then laying them on the table of the Council, was wholly unprecedented, and might be very mischievous in its effects. The Supeeintendent said the omission would be supplied by the immediate publication of the abstracts in question ; and such publication would be duly attended to in future. They had been simply laid on the table for the present informal tion of members. Resignation qf Deputy Superintendent. Mr. CoiiENSo, pursuant to notice, rose to move "that His Honor the Superintendent be requested to lay on the table, forthwith, the letter from the Deputy Superintendent containing his resignation of that office." In one of the gazettes there was an announcement to the effect that Mr. Ormond had been appointed Deputy Superintendent — so appointed under the Deputy Superintendent's Act. To his (Mr. Colenso's) great astonishment he afterwards found that another was gazetted to the same office, although the first named gentleman's resignation was never published, nor, as he had reason to believe, ever sent in. He had read over the Act carefully, and he was clearly of opinion that the first appointed gentleman not having resigned, the second appointment was illegal. Mr. Tiffen seconded the motion. The Superintendent said that, certainly, no letter of resignation was sent in by Mr. Ormond, it being considered that as a matter of course the duties of the Deputy ceased upon the return of the Superintendent. Mr. Ormond said that perhaps he should have forinall}'- resigned,; but it never occurred to him that it was necessary. He imagined that the appointment lapsed. If however, it should turn out that the seoond appointment was illegal, the Superintendent would doubtless take steps to. legalise, anything that had been done by Mr. Rhodes, while acting as Deputy Superintendent. Mr. Colenso plainly-perceived that it was an inadvertent error, the effects of which could \be easily rectified, but which .should be guarded against on a future occasion. The purpose of the motion having been answered, he would, y with the permission of the Council, withdraw it. '< — Withdrawn accordingly. Defence qf ' MohaTta District, Mr. Dolbel, pursuant to notice, asked the Superintendent •'>• why - s, certain number of the Colonial Defence -Force were not stationed at

Mohaka during the time hostilities were anticipated there? and whether it is the intention of the Government*^ or the future to station a certain/humber inSk|t district." He said that, in reply to a questTPrput by him last session, the Superintendent had said that it was the intention of the government "to, erect barracks at Mohaka, and that a detachment of the "Defence Force would be stationed there. That promise had not been fulfilled, : although, for some time, Mohaka was threatened with an attack. It was now becoming a thickly populated district, and should l'eceive more attention than the government seemed disposed to give it. The Superintendent replied that the government was quite aware of the unprotected state of the Mohaka district, and had dona its best to supply the settlers with arms and assist in the erection of a stockade. The Defence Force had not been very long in existence, and the officer commanding was averse to splitting it up into small •detachments until it was better trained and organised. That force was kept up at the expense of the General Government, and the Provincial authorities had no direct authority over it. On a former occasion he had applied to Major Whitmore to have a few of the men statioued at Mohaka ; and he would now again represent to that officer the requirements of the district. Dipping Trough at the Spit. Mr. Fitzgerald not being in his place, and the Speaker ruling that Mr. Tiffen (who got up for the purpose) could not act for him unless duly authorised in that behalf, the following motion, of which notice had been given, fell to the ground :— " That a dipping trough, with the necessary requirements, be erected at the Spit for the purpose, of dipping all sheep introduced into the Province by vessel — the cost of such work to be defrayed out of the £4000 voted in the loan for harbour improvements." Amended Loan Bill. The Superintendent moved, and Mr. Tiffen seconded, the suspension of standing rule 27, with the view of renewing the motion that lapsed yesterday for leave to" bring in an " Amended Loan Bill.*' Agreed to ; leave given accordingly, and the bill brought in. On the motion of the SUPERINTENDENT, seconded by Mr. Tiffen, the standing ordefs were again suspended, aud the bill read a first time. The Supeeintendent having moved the suspension of the standing rules, with the view of moving that the bill be read a second time,— Mr. Colenso drew attention to the last of the standing rules and orders, which provided that they cpuldinot be suspended unless eleven members were present. We, he said, being in a minority—seeing that His Honor has sent up the • country to whip in a member — the only course left us to have the bill fairly considered is to retire, so that the standing orders cannot be suspended. He accordingly withdrew, accompanied or preceded by Messrs. Tiffen, Bousfield, and Edwards. Mr. Fitzgerald had been absent during the greater part offthe sitting ; and the members who remained, were nine, viz.: — Messrs, McLean," Ormond, Smith, Russell, Rhodes, Kennedy, Dolbel, Tuke, Curling. After a pause, — Mr. OEMOND said that he did not know what other members thought, but to | his mind there was nothing to justify the extraordinary course that had been taken. Members had known for weeks what was about to be brought forward, and had had ample time to ! prepare themselves. He, for one, had left home to attend the Council at a time when it was very inconvenient for him to do so, and the only object that he could conceive certain members had in thus stopping the business, was to keep country members in town for another day. He did not think such conduct at all creditable ; it appeared to him to be evidence of an unseemly and factious opposition. If the member who had just spoken bad advanced any argument or reason, he would think less of it. Indeed, had any reason been given which was at all a fair one, the Government would willingly have conceded the point. Notice having been given by tbe Superintendent of the second reading of the bill, the Council adjourned till next day.