WEDNESDAY, MARCH 28.

Hawke's Bay Herald, Volume 3, Issue 133, 7 April 1860, Page 3

WEDNESDAY, MARCH 28.

The Council met pursuant to {adjournment, Present, the Speaker and 8 members.

Appropriation Act. On the motion of Mr. FikGerald, this Act was read a first time.

Audit Sill.

On the adjourned debate upon the second reading of this bill, —

Mr. Riddeli/, with the view of bringing tho discussion to a close, moved the following resolution : —

" That in the opinion of this Council it is undesirable to repeal the Audit Act, now in force ia this province, during the present session; but that the Superintendent be requested to submit the quarterly accounts of the province to the examination of the gentlemen lately employed by the Finance committee, previous to their publication in the Government Gazette."

Mr. Aiexaudee moved as an amendment that the following words be added to the above — " or such other gentlemen as the Superintendent may name, if the before-mentioned gentlemen are unable or unwilling to attend to the duties of audit."

He said that he was always in favor of detracting from the power of the Superintendent ; but at the same time he did not think the council should give themselves powers which they might not be able to use, but which the Superintendent might fairly and justly exercise.

Mr. Obmond submitted that he was unfairly treated in this matter. Yesterday, it was agreed that certain clauses should be added to the Wellington Act. Now, there was first an amendment which shelved the bill, and then another which gave the appointment of Auditors into the Superintendent's hands.

Mr. Alexander — Only in the event of the gentlemen named by the Council not acting. Mr. Colenso had heard the proposal that two or three clauses should be added to the Wellington Act, but he, for one, distinctly repudiated the proposal. They might just as well pass the Bill. As regarded the amendment, he thought it on the whole, at this period of the session, a happy hit on the part of the member for Mohaka — although he could not help thinking that for two Auditors to be appointed to overhaul, every three months, the accounts of another Auditor, was a stupid waste of time and of money.

Dr. Hitchen t gs had yesterday understood that the debate was adjourned with the view of affording time for certain clauses to be added to the Wellington Act — a suggestion to which the member for Napier (Mr. EitzGrerald) had fully agreed. As however the session was now so near a close, he would certainly vote for the amendment of the member for Mohaka. As it had been seen that the accounts of the province have hitherto been satisfactorily kept, he thought that, with the addition of the periodical audit, they might go on very well for another 12 months.

Mr. Cueung concurred in what had been said by the member for Waipukurau. That member ■was not fairly treated. He (Mr. Curling) had distinctly understood that the proposal to add three clauses to the old Act had been accepted by the Superintendent and his Executive. Mr. F itzG-ebalDj in explanation, said that he, individually, had acquiesced in the suggestion made yesterday by the member for Waipukurau, but he was not in a position to speak for any otker member, any one of whom, of course, was at liberty to bring forward an amendment, if he pleased. But he thought it would be generally conceded that the amendment of Mr. Biddell met every requirement ; it would give all the substantial advantages of the bill without taking up the time of the members, which was now valuable.

The amendment of Mr. Alexander was then put and negatived, and that of Mr. Riddell agreed to — the bill being permitted to lapse.

Estimates.

The Council then went into Committee for the consideration of the remainder of the estimates.

Superintendent's Department. — Superintendent at £600 per annum. Mr. Alexander said that, when Mr. FitzGrerald was one of those who agitated for separation, he was an advocate for salaries being at the lowest rate. When out of office, that gentleman had made an estimate of the probable cost of governing the province, in which estimate the salary of Superintendent was set down at £300 t He (Mr. Alexander) now found that Mr. Fitz» Gerald received just double that sum for his services. He thought that in reducing salaries they should begin at the fountain head, and he would therefore move as an amendment that £300 be substituted for £600. Mr. Ormond could not for a moment agree to this.. The Superintendent deserved his salary and earned it fairly. If they were to give a Commissioner of Crown Lands £400 and £75 for travelling expenses, surely the least they could give. the head of the government would be £600. Mr. Colenso said that were the Superintendent a lazy man, there might ba soma excuse for this, but seeing that he was known to work from early dawn till a late hour, aad that

the public faith was pledged to this amount for one year, be thought there was none. Mr. Ehode3 would submit that the office and salary were fixed, The member for Napier Country might as well at once bring forward a motion of want of confidence in the Superintendent. Mr. Alexander explained that, not having been present during former sessions, he was not aware what arrangements the council then made. Mr. Curling said that the member for Napier was perfectly justified in expressing an. opinion upon this vote. But that opinion was one in which, he (Mr. Curling) could not concur. It was his honest conviction that the sum on the estimates was no more than an efllcient man was entitled to. If they did not vote the sum they would not get the man. He was not a believer in the cheap system. The item was then passed, also, clerk at £200, legal advice at £50, contingencies, furniture, &o, at £100. Total for Superintendent's Department, £950.

Provincial Treasurer. — Treasurer at £150, agreed to, also contingencies at £40. Extra salary if the office of Treasurer be constructed a separate office, making up £300 .per annum. Mr. Ormond moved that this item be struck off the estimates — the Superintendent having told the council that the services of the present Treasurer were likely to be continued. Mr. EitzG-erald had been misunderstood. The services of the Treasurer might not improbably be retained for three months longer, although they did not know the day when that officer would be called upon to relinquish the office. The General Government had a strong objection to two treasurerships being held by one person. They thought that if he was inclined to be dishonest he could pay money from one account into another and always shew a correct balance. It was absolutely necessary that the contingent vote should be passed, or that it be understood that the amount will be voted next session, if required. The government was perfectly satisfied with the present Treasurer, bat had no power, of course, to retain his services. The vote of course would not be acted on unless actually required. Mr. Orrnond, on this .explanation, withdrew his amendment, and the vote was agreed to. Total for Treasurer's Department, £302 10s.

Provincial Auditor. — Auditor, also Interpreter, at £200. Mr. Alexander moved that the Superintendent be requested to place £100 more on the estimates for the salary of this officer, whose duties were of the most arduous kind, and who was very inadequately paid. Mr. FitzGerald said that it •was quite competent for any member himself to move an increase to any item. Mr. Alexander would ask if it was the intention to continue the two offices in one. Mr. FitzGerald said that if they could be continued in one it would be very desirable. But the gentleman who at present held these offices was desirous of resigning in consequence of a supposition that the feeling of the council was against his holding office, and if he did so, it would no doubt become necessary that the two offices should be separated. Mr. Curling said that, considering the onerous as well as responsible duties performed by that officer, he considered that he was greatly underpaid. He spoke of this, as he had done with reference to the system of audit, without reference to individuals. Mr. Rhodes said it was most desirable that the offices should be combined ; for if the two were separated, they would get no one to act as Interpreter for such a sum as £50 per annum. He thought that the present holder of these offices might be induced to continue in them for the next financial year. He wotild therefore move that £100 per annum be added to the salary of Auditoi* and Interpreter. Mr. Colenso would not have remained in the room when this item came on for discussion had he thought for a moment that he was likely to hold office any longer. On Saturday last he had virtually resigned. He still wished to resign ; but if, by the unanimous voice of the council — without a single dissentient, lie was pressed to continue in office, he was willing to do so. But on no other terms could he hold it honorably. Mr. Alexander believed that the council would be very glad to secure his services. Mr. FitzGerald apprehended that the result of the vote would be a sufficient expression of opinion. Motion for increase of salary carried without dissent. The item of contingencies at £30 was also agreed to after an explanation from Mr. FitzGerald that this was for account books, furniture for new office, fuel in winter time &c. Mr. FitzGerald said that it would be necessary to place a sum on the estimates for remuneration to those gentlemen who have been, and may again be, engaged as auditors of the public accounts. .He thought that probably £20 each for what had been done, and £60 for the remaining work of the year would be required. Mr. Alexander asked if the sum of £20 each was to be given for what the auditors had done ? Mr. Ormond would submit that £20 was not too much for the heavy work of going over all the accounts of the province from the time of separation. Item agreed to. Total for Auditor's Department, £405.

Registrar of Brands at £25 per annum. Mr. Ormond moved that it be struck out. It was the intention of members, he believed, to vote a salary for an Inspector of Sheep for the Northern District, who would perform the duty of Eegistrar of Brands without additional salary. Agreed to, and item struck out accordingly.

Inspector of Sheep £75.— Mr. Curling moved thafe there be two Inspectors, one for the southern and one for the northern district, and that the Balary of each be £150. It was an important office, and the duties, if properly performed, were onerous, involving long journeys and considerable expense for horse hire. An inspector resident in JSapier was indispensable ; he believed that it was nothing uncommon for sheep and rams to be landed from vessels and sent right up the country without any inspection. Mr. Colenso was sorry that he felt it his duty to oppose this motion, because it •would assuredly be put down to deadly hatred of the runholder. But so far as he wa3 aware, all the. runs were clean, and the circumstances of their holders not different from- what' they were two years ago.- It was now proposed to appoint two inspectors to do the duty of one, at a cost of £300 per annum, although the revenue from sheep would noli amount to £200. He thought if tho sheep farmer wanted bo much inspection he should ;pay for it himself. He would propose two inspectors at £100 each. Mr, Ales-

ander was astonished that the member for Napier, who had just been voted £100 additional to his salary, should persist in carping at everything proposed for the benefit of the sheep farmer. With regard to the motion before the council, what was it that enabled the members to sit there and vote salaries for themselves and others? Why, the wool and sheep of the province. And if scab was allowed to be introduced, the loss would be £5000 or £6000 per annum, if not more. He thought that this amount for two Inspectors, if they adequately performed their duties, would be fairly and legitimately spent. Mr. Ormond said it was most desirable to have two inspectors. At the same time he did not think the council was justified in voting more than the revenue derived, which last year, was £186, and, this, will probably be £250. Probably two Inspectors at £125 would be fairer. Mr. Fitz Gerald thought that as the duties of the Inspector at Napier would be the lighter, he should receive £100, and the other £150. Mr. Ehodes said that the work would not be killing to either, but that living was much higher in Napier than in the country. Mr. Colenso thought that country members should be perfectly satisfied with £100. There had been no such rise in any other salary. Mr. Alexander asked if this sum would keep an Inspector and his horse. Mr. Ehodes said that the member for "Waipukurau only asked, on behalf of the sheep farmer, that money collected for a definite pwpose should be applied to that purpose, Mr. Curling believed that the salaries of each officer should be £125. The Inspector of the northern division would require to have a sharp eye, and would not have such light work as seemed to be supposed. Item of two Inspectors, also Eegistrar of Brands, at £125 each, agreed to.

Two Inspectors under Dog Nuisance Act, at £30. Mr. Ormond said that, last year, this amount had been voted with the view of encouraging policemen to put the law in force. Had it had that effect? Mr. FitzGerald Jeaid that there had been many complaints lately respecting the dog nuisance from gentlemen in the southern district, many of whom had suffered greatly from the ravages of stray dogs amongst their flocks. There was an Inspector some time ago (Mr. Harris,) but no appointment had since been made. It was now suggested to have two at £io each, one at Waipnkurau and one at Napier— the latter, he believed, was to be the cleric to the Resident Magistrate. The salary was more nominal than any thing else, but the duties were light — simply to take the fee and deliver the necessary collar. — Agreed to.

Steam Navigation. — Under this head, Mr. FitzGerald took occasion to recapitulate the great loss to the customs revenue sustained through the province having no direct trade with Sydney, and to express regret that he was not in a position to give the council any further information with reference to the steps to be taken under this vote.

Miscellaneous. — Mr. FitzGerald said that he had just received a requisition for a sum to cover' rent of a room for the court at Waipukurau ; and there were numerous small payments to be made •which could not well be provided for. He would therefore ask o vote of £150 under the head of " Miscellaneous." Agreed to.

Napier Athenaum. — Mr. FitzGerald said that he had omitted to fulfil a promise made to the committee of this institution, to place a sum on the estimates by way of a grant in aid of the building. He would move that a sum equal to that contributed by pi-ivate subscription, not to exceed £200, be voted for this purpose. There could be no doubt that this would be a vote towards educational objects, and the amount already on the estimates under this head would be sufficient for all demands. Agreed to as a separate item. Provincial Council. — Speaker at £100. Agreed to.

Expenses of Members, — £50 for the first quarter of the year confirmed. Amount from April to December, £150. In reply to Mr. Alexander, Mr. FitzG-erald said that at last meeting of the council it was resolved that the country members, from having to come from a distance and live in hotels, would be allowed £1 per diem for their expenses. He believed this would barely cover the expenses incurred for themselves aud horses. Dr. Hatchings, according to intimation, would move that tho town members should be paid in an equal ratio. To the country members a periodical visit to town was a matter of pleasure, and they certainly laid themselves out for it. The town members, at all events, made as great a sacrifice in attending as they did. He himself lost pounds without number from the necessity of being there every day. Mr. Alexander would oppose the motion. To the country member the actual loss in money exceeded the remuneration, to say nothing of the risk of leaving his sheep to the care of others. It was a very different thing for the town members, whose duties in the council scarcely took them away from their own doors. Mr. Ormond — The member for Napier asks payment for his time ; the country members only ask to be repaid their expenses. Mr. Oolenso would help hi 3 colleague, on the principle that what was sauce for the goose was sauce for the gander. If that member would be paid for time, he (Mr. Colenso) would be paid for work. The duties of the council kept him at work night and day. He would vote for the motion, although he didn't believe they would get it. Mr. FitzGerald was decidedly against the motion, more especially as the members claiming this allowance were already in the service of the government j such a proposition could not stand for a moment. The gentleman holding the office of Provincial Surgeon, might, it was true, lose some private practice by his attendance at that council, but it was a voluntary act on his part, and he had no right to be paid for that which he volunteered to do. The precedent would be, a very bad one indeed. Mr. Colenso knew he would not get it, and did not himßelf particularly wish to get it, hut he might mention as a precedent that in Auckland a similar motion hadl been brought forward by Dr. Pollen, and Q.he believed, carried. Dr. Hitchings did not expect it would be carried. Their notions of meum and teum seemed to be of the loosest kind. He did not calculate on the support of the Superintendent, who had never Bupportedhim (Dr. Hitchings) in anything he brought forward. The act was also a voluntary one on the part of country members

— done without any stipulation for payment. With regard to being a servant of the government, he was nothing of the kind ; he had no master on earth except heaven, and never would. Mr. FitzGerald asked what was he (Dr. Hitchings) but a servant of the government ? Did lie not undertake certain duties under the government, and receive a salary for bo doing ? The motion was then negatived on a division — the ayes being Dr. Hitehings and Mr. Colenso. The sum, as it stood on the estimates, was then agreed to.

Public Pound. — Mr. FifzG-erald was happy to be able to agree in one instance with the member for Napier (Dr. Hitchings) viz., in the necessity for establishing a public pound in Napier. He believed that the expense of keeping it would be covered by the fees, and that the only cost to the province at present would be the erection of a suitable enclosure. Dr. Hitchings, in reply to Mr. FitzGerald, said that he estimated the cost at £50 ; he thought a policeman might do the duties of poundkeeper for some time. £50 voted.

Provincial Engineer 1 s Department.— Mr. FitzGerald said that the item of travelling expenses for the clerk and paymaster had been left open when the items under this head were, under discussion. The sum voted last year was £50, which, considering that this officer was travelling eight days in every month, was quite insufficient. These journeys were done very quietly ; indeed he (Mr. FitzG-erald) had often been surprised at their rapidity. He believed that the additional allowance sought for was only £'60, which would then be under the actual expense incurred. £80 passed.

Unexpended balances of amounts voted last year, amounting to £3,857 Is. Id., were then revoted, after which the chairman reported progress and the council adjourned.