PARLIAMENTARY.

Globe, Volume XXIII, Issue 2248, 17 June 1881, Page 3

PARLIAMENTARY.

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES. Thursday, Junr 16. The House met at 2.30 p.m. NOTICE OP MOTION. Mr Barron gave notice that he would ask if the Government intended to take any steps for the suppression or otherwise discouraging of gambling, more especially that form known as race consultations. LEAVE OP ABSENCE, Leave of absence was granted for one week to Mr A. McDonald. Mr Whitaker gave notice to ask for fourteen days’ leave of absence for Mr Sheehan. QUESTIONS. Eeplying to Mr Biohardson, The Hon. Major Atkinson said that Government did not intend to introdnce a Bill to amend the Harbours Act, 1878, but if the Harbour Boards thought any alterations necessary Government would assist in getting them made. Eeplying to Mr Bain, The Hon. Major Atkinson said that the marine engineers and nautical adviser had been instructed to report upon the necessity or otherwise of erecting a lighthouse on Waipapapa Point, and the Land Department as to a site ; and if the report, as was probable, warranted it, provision would be made on the estimates for the building. Eeplying to Mr Andrews, The Hon. W. Eolleston said that Government fully recognised the services rendered by the police at the wreck of the Tararua, but they did not consider any conus or other consideration for their services necessary beyond what had been paid as compensation for clothing destroyed. Eeplying to Mr Hutchison, The Hon. J. Hail said that an important document was required to be printed in the Government office by an early hour on Menday morning, and the printers were given permission either to do it late on Saturday night or on Sunday. They elected to complete it on the Sunday. He (Mr Hall) before granting that permission was careful to ascertain that this was not the first occasion on which a similar course had been pursued. Eeplying to Mr Wakefield, The Hon. W. Eolleston said that although no exhaustive step had been taken for conserving the Native forests or establishing Crown lands plantations, yet certain efforts had been made in that direction. Plans were being prepared showing the extent of and furnishing other information relative to these forests, with the view of a more complete conservation being made. Eeplying to Mr Ballanoe, The Hon. Major Atkinson said that Government had under consideration the question of amending the Tobacco Act, 1879, in the direction of inducing growers, by means of a minimum duty, to successfully establish the industry in this colony. Eeplying to Mr Hutchison, The Hon. T. Dick said that Government did not intend to propose any amendments or changes in the Education Act, 1877, or the regulations made thereunder. Eeplying to Mr Hutchison, The Hon. J. Hail said that Government had come to the conclusion that their responsibilities in reference to railway accidents and damages were equivalent to those of a private railway company, and that a Bill defining their responsibilities on that basis would be brought forward. Eeplying to Mr Hutchison, The Hon. T. Dick said that a circular had been issued by the Inspector of Prisons to Justices of the Peace. Two circulars had been issued to prison officials, one forbidding them giving any information to the press. That was done in accordance with the provisions of the Civil Service Eegnlations, 1873. Tnese circulars were issued by the direction of the Government. NBW BILLS. The following Bills were introduced and' read a first time:—A Bill to amend the Oamaru Harbor Board Ordinance Amendment Aot, 1876 (Mr Shrimski) ; Wellington Queen’s Wharf and Store Sale Bill (Mr Levin) ; Fort Chalmers Cemetery Bill (Mr Maoandrew) j Drainage Bill (Mr Murray.) MISCELLANEOUS. The following motions were passed Mr Shbimski —That a plan be prepared showing (1) the boundaries of the county of Waitaki, defining the boundaries of the Maerewhenna goldfields within the said county as from time to time proclaimed ; (2), land sold within the said goldfields from its first being proclaimed to May 30th, 1881; (3) names of purchasers and acreage. Mr Seymour —That a Standing Orders and Private Bills Committee be appointed, to consist of Messrs Braqdon, Montgomery, and the mover; that a joint committee on Bills be appointed, to consist of Messrs Brandon, Pitt, and the mover. Mr Mobs —For a return showing the amounts received yearly by the Government for tolls in the county of Eden from 1876 to March 31st last, together with a return of the expenditure yearly on the main roads in the county of Eden, and main roads leading from Auckland City to the said county, the road through the borough|of Parnell included. Mr Whitakhb —That a return be laid before the House showing (1) what real property has been dealt with under section 8 of the High Schools Reserves Aot, 1880, the nature of any such dealings, the amount received in money by the trustees of any property so dealt with, and the manner in which such money bos been applied; (2) what mortgages, if any, have been given by the trustees of any of the reserves, or of the profits of any investments made out of any monies accruing from the sale of any reserves subject to the said Act, under clause 12 of tho said Aot. Mr Hutchison— For a return of the amount paid during the year 1880 by the various borough and county councils, Boad Boards, and other local bodies upon the valuation rolls in their respective districts. CHABITABLB AID BILL, The Hon. J. Hall moved the second reading of the Hospital and Charitable Aid Bill. The principle of the Bill was similar to that of the BUI of last session. An opinion, no doubt, prevailed that hospitals should be under the management of the local bodies, but the objection to that was that claims would be constantly arising out of the fact that the sick of one district were being treated by the hospital or institution of a different district. To obviate that difficulty still more the districts had been made large, and as far as possible these districts should have a community of interest, &0., amongst the whole of their residents. The speaker then went on to detail the provisions of the Bill, which he did at considerable length. In deference to the opinion of the goldfields members, a provision has been inserted whereby funds might be raised by means of a poU tax. Replying to an objection which he had heard stated to a BUI of tho kind, he said that they had been told that it would encourage pauperism. He did not see the force of that argument. The present state of things was more likely to lead to that effect than the system proposed by the Bill. At present, funds for charitable purposes were disbursed by districts altogether irrespective of those ini which the funds were collected. The endeavor had been mode to make the BiU os general and comprehensive as possible, and he therefore hoped that members would not object to it solely because its provisions did not happen to fit in with the scheme in force within their own particular districts. Dr. Wallis complained that in introducing a measure of this kind, more full and complete information had not been furnished. He thought that the BUI was one of far too ambitious a nature. In his opinion a separate BUI should have been brought down, one for curing disease and the other for relieving the poor. The Bill in its present shape meant nothing more than fresh taxation. For years back they had been living at the rate of four mUlions per annum. Two or three had been got from taxation, and the other two defrayed out of loan. It seemed that even yet they bad nothing left after paying for loans out of the legitimate taxation. What he suggested was that out of the 25,000,000 acres of waste lands they hod still in hand sufficient areas should be set apart so as to provide endowments for the support of these institutions. By that means they might avoid further taxation. Mr Mobb looked upon the BUI as a measure which would saddle them with a class of permanent paupers. It would bring them to regard this pauperism os a permanent institution in their midst. That wonld ho the certain effect of the measure. It was a matter which any local body, if properly organised, could deal with much bettor than they could do. Then, again, they were told that large districts were to bo constituted. That means that new local bodies were to be established, whereas the local bodies at present in operation, if properly examined, would meet all the exigencies of the case. If that House

took up their time with this and other such matters, the result would be that the time would be wasted away, and then towards the end of the session the really important business of the country—local administration, for example—would come down after they were tired out and ready to break up. In that ease the real business would be withdrawn, as it had been in past years, under the promise that it would be brought forward again next year. He would advise the Government to withdraw this Bill until the more comprehensive system of local administration was before them and had been dealt with. But for the subsidies proposed by the Bill it would not bo acceptable, but he did not believe that the subsidies would be paid, at all events for any length of time. To test the point he would move that the second reading be deferred until the Government had had an opportunity of bringing down a general scheme for local administration. Mr Mueeay seconded the amendment. He concurred in the view expressed by the previous speaker. Ho thought it was absurd that they should be called upon to squabble over matters like this, which wore of a purely parochial character. Ho quoted statistics to prove that New Zealand had already made ample provision for charitable and other aids. Ho hoped that the Government would not press the motion, hut accept the amendment proposed by the member for Parnell. Mr SnEPHAED said that the amendment amounted to a vote of want of confidence. He could not concur in the adverse criticirm passed upon the Bill. Mr Shbiksei spoke in opposition to the Bill, He charged the Government with being responsible, by its land administration, and in other ways, for the poverty the Bill proposed to relieve, and advised that it should be withdrawn, and a Local Government Bill be brought down. Mr Ballakoe differed from the Premier in the opinion expressed, that because the Bill did not fit in with local institutions it should not be objected to. The fact was that it was objected to from all parts of the House, which showed that the Bill proposed to sweep away at one stroke institutions which had grown up and strengthened with the life and progress of the colony. The measure was based on subsidies, and it was an omission on the part of the Premier that he did not tell them what guarantee there was that these subsidies would not be swept away, as the local governing subsidies had been. Instead of constituting a local governing body, the working of the Bill entirely depended upon the Governor in Council. The revenue of all the contributing districts was to be placed at the disposal of the Governor in Council, thereby striking, as it were, at the very root of that local administration for which they were all contending. The debate was interrupted by the 5,30 adjournment. EVENING SITTING. The House resumed at 7.30. OHAEIIABLB AID BILL. Mr Bailakcb continued the debate. He complained that the Bill proposed a poll tax to be imposed by bodies upon which the persons so taxed had no representative. He had already shown that little dependence could be placed in the subsidies. He contended that the local bodies were not in funds, and could not possibly contribute the share falling on them. They had sot funds enough to defray the cost of works already devolving upon them. An amendment of the constitution of the local bodies os they presently existed would obviate the necessity for the creation of this new body proposed in the Bill. The great fault of the administration was that they had too many local administrative bodies already. He was not disposed to make this a political question. He objected to the principle of the Bill, because it was the thin end of the wedge of State pauperism. He would suggest that the Bill should be remodelled in the direction ho had indicated. He also suggested that the amendment should be withdrawn, and that the Bill after its second reading should be remodelled in committee. The Hon. W. JOHKBTON said that the whole effect of the Bill was to relieve the House of the trouble of carrying out charitable aid, and at the same time give assistance to the local efforts of the districts in carrying out the work, giving them at the same time full control. He saw no reasons why the Boards proposed to be constituted by the Bill should not be formed solely by representation from amongst those who were asked to contribute the cost. In committee he thought an alteration of that nature might very well be made. Sir G. Geby wished to explain that he was in no degree responsible for the amendment. The member for Parnell had moved it on his own responsibility. He did not' concur in the opinion that it should not be considered a political question. It dealt with a subject of the highest political importance, but it ought not to be deemed a party question. He thought it was quite possible to 'deal with this question under a scheme of local selfgovernment. Under an administration of that kind the Act would be much better administered than otherwise. Instead of talking of compulsory relief they should endeavour to abolish compulsory poverty. Our whole laws and administration tended to create a few' rich persons, to the impoverishment of the many. Under a proper system there should be no poor persons in New Zealand. IE a fair share of the public money was fairly distributed there would be no want of employment, and consequently no poverty. Let the wealthy absentees residing in England and elsewhere give back what they were entitled to do and there would be no poor. Was it fair that, while the unearned increment remained untouched apoll tax should be imposed? They had been told that a class amongst us had come to that state of destitution when they must be assisted. He would say that they had not oome to that stage ; they had been driven to it. He hoped soon to have an opportunity to bring forward a motion expressing sympathy with the suffering masses in the home country, and also pledging themselves to tolerate no description of legislation in this country that would countenance or encourage such maladministration of the land laws as had led to the state of affairs in Great Britain and Ireland. Let the Government tear up this Bill, and eay that charitable institutions should be supported out of the legitimate source of taxation —the unearned increment. The last speaker had talked about relief being afforded from this House. Was a poll tax upon the hard-work-ing man, on the struggling deferred payment settler, the description of reliefjthat was to be afforded ? He hoped that the Bill he was about to ask leave to introduce would meet all the requirements of the case, and, render this Bill unnecessary. He hoped that the Government would withdraw the measure, and say that until local self - government was established they would allow this question to remain in abeyance. The great objection to the Bill was that one body could call upon another to impose taxes for defraying the cost of the system, while the taxing body had no proper control over the spending body. He hoped that the Government would follow the course he proposed, and that the member for Parnell would also withdraw his amendment. Ho would be prepared to follow any loader who would take up the whole question of local government in a right spirit. Mr Wakefield said that this local government idea was a new-formed one for the last speaker. He told his constituents at the Thames, only a few weeks ago, that he would do away with all local government together, and have the colony governed from this one Chamber. He congratulated him on his conversion to this new-formed faith, and hoped he would not return again quite so suddenly to his previous notions. He gave no clear indication of how the system of charitable aid was to be provided for by local government. He did not believe that he had considered the question of local government sufficiently matured to enable him to bring down any scheme on the point. Sir G. Grey bad never been a friend of local self government, and be was about the last man they would expect to propound a reasonable proposal on that point. He could not see that the Bill was being unduly pressed. All that was asked was to read it a second time, and plenty of opportunity would be granted to consider the matter fully. He agreed in the opinion that this and other questions affecting local matters should be postponed until they had a full statement of what the Government intended to do in the matter of local adminstration. He meant by that, that any opportunity should be afforded for considering all these matters as one scheme. It was a mistake to think that they had in New Zealand a pauper doss analogous te that, of England. The unemployed were either men who were unfitted to the colony, or else they were men who, daring the summer months, earned sufficient to keep them all the year round, but who, through improvidence or miscalculation, had neglected to provide for the dull season of the year. There were the poor, but It was nonsense to epcak of a large able-bodied pauper

class in New Zealand. Ho admitted that a great deal more ought to be done by the wealthy for the poor than was done. What was wanted was an organiia'.ion that would distribute assistance from the rich to the poor. An organisation of that kind would do far more good than any measure of this kind. If they had a proper system of local govern* ment that would be quite sufficient for the case. He hoped that the Government would not think of pressing this measure until they had explained why they could not bring down local government, or else tell them they were prepared to do it. He would ask them to pass the second reading on that distinct under* standing, Mr Tueebull questioned the statement made by the previous speaker respecting the causes of poverty. The fact, as it came under his observation, was that labour was not by any moans so plentiful as it once was. Labour saving machinery had been largely imported into the colony, and the result was that the same demand for labour did not exist, as it had existed a few years ago. He spoke at some length, advocating the importance of delaying the Bill until the Government had disclosed its intentions in reference to local administration. Sir G. Obey asked leave to make a personal explanation with regard to an alleged statement on his part that all local self-govern-ment should be abolished. He had made no such statement; all that he did say being that he thought there should be only one Legislative Chamber, and that nominated Land Boards should be abolished. Mr Gibboenb approved of the principle of the Bill, though he had reserved to himself the right to criticise its details. It was a practical question that they had to deal with, namely, how to provide for the sick and destitute of the colony, and he thought that the Bill was right in providing for residential settlement. Such being the case, it would be most unfair to ask that district to support the coat, such as would be done were' they to throw this burden upon local institutions. The object of the poll tax was that those persons who had acquired no property, and who wore most likely to be bonefitted by the Bill might be made to contribute to the fund. He agreed as to the importance of bringing in a scheme for the improvement of local government. The Government had pledged itself to such a scheme, and ho was disappointed that nothing was said about it now. Still that was no reason why they should stop consideration of the business brought before them, as was proposed by the amendment. He was prepared to give a reasonable time for propounding such a scheme, but if they failed to do so he believed that the country at large would be very greatly disappointed, and that the neglect would weaken their position considerably. Mr Pitt thought that the cost of charitable aid should be charged upon the consolidated revenue. It was the duty of the State to provide for the community when in health—for instance, under their educational system, and it was their duty to provide for them in sickness. They hod partly affirmed the principle in the establishment and administration of their lunatic asylums. Again, the colony had taken the land fund, and if they could not make endowments it was plainly their duty to defray the cost out of revenue. It was a matter requiring to be dealt with at once. He would therefore vote against the amendment. Mr Swaxsok agreed that the administration of the Act was a duty devolving on the Government, A great deal of the prevailing poverty was attributable to the irregularities on the part of the men themselves. Who gained by these irregularities but the Government ? He would be glad to see all the money csllecbed from liquor set apart for the maintenance of charitable aid and lunatic asylums, &c. The talk about taxing the bond holder was absurd ; the money was but a certain per centage. Where did the theory of an unearned increment come in there? Ho could understand that it applied to laud bought at 20s on acre, and which the general progress of the place raised to £lO. Government had brought out shiploads of people, many of whom were consumptive and imbeciles. Was it fair that the districts should be made to pay for the support of these P Clearly not. It was the duty of the Government to provide for thorn. Oapt. Bussell thought that the principles of the Bill were upon the whole sound. He characterised the setting apart of land ae endowment* for this purpose as amongst the most useful purposes to which it could be appropriated. Mr Db Lautoub denied that the poll tax had to be resorted to in consequence of the indisposition of the mining community to contribute voluntarily. He , contended that charitable aids and hospital management were quite incompatible with each other. Their duty was to make their hpepitale as attractive as possible, and on the other hand to stamp out the necessity for a charitable aid system. Charitable aid to hie mind was like -adding fuel to the fire. So long as a man found that he would be provided for is his destitute moments he had no incentive to be provident. What they should do was to educate the people in the principles of independence. The effect of this Bill would be to shut up country institutions and establish large institutions in the towns. So surely ae local government is established, which it must be within the next two years, so sure will this Bill fall through, as the districts will insist on managing this as well as other local institutions. He pointed out that the Bill merely stated that the pound for pound subsidy might be paid out of funds appropriated by the House. That was not saying that it would be paid. He thought the Bill should be amended in that respect. Mr Eeid spoke in support of the Bill, and Mr Speight against it. Mr Andeews also spoke in favour of the Bill. The Hon. J. Hall replied. He eaid that the amendment meant that the House refused to oonaidcr a mcaeure urgently wanted the country until another had come forward, of which no notice had been given. It wae beside the queotion to eay that the amendment did not mean a vote of want of confidence, Thia amendment was not required to give an opportunity for the question of local government to be considered. Ho had told them that on the motion being carried the Bill would be put aside so as to give ample time for considering it in all its bearings. The debate bad disclosed many suggestions that wore valuable and would be considered in committee. He denied that the Bill was designed to destroy voluntary institutions. The fact was that special provision was made for continuing these institutions, and he agreed that it was undesirable to give the Governor in Council more extensive powers than were necessary,, but to carry out a measure of this kind such extensive powers were absolutely necessary. There was a moral obligation contracted that the subsidies would not be withdrawn if the Bill came into force. The fact that the districts would be called upon to raise a certain amount of the money was a guarantee o£ I itself that the expenditure would bo closely 1 looked into, and any extravagance of management cheeked. With respect to the poll tax it seemed to be overlooked that this course was adopted at the suggestion of the goldfield members themselves, whoso special case itvns designed to meet. They had been told that the Government must bring in a local government scheme. Ho hoped that members would say what they meant by this. The country would not forego their present institutions so easily until they knew what they were going to get in their place. The other side had preached a great deal about laud settlement. Statistics, however, would show that the prosent Government had practised that doctrine. The Bill would not come on in committee until emple opportunity had been given to consider any local government scheme that might be propounded. Mr Babeon moved the adjournment of the debate.

The motion was negatived. Mr Moss said that the amendment was made solely on his own responsibility as an independent member. There was not in reality any Opposition, and he was acting solely a? an independent member. He did not at the moment think whether or not it wae a hostile vote. All he was anxious for was that they should not waste time on unimportant measures, and thus bring forward the im. portant business when everyone was more anxious than another to get away. Ho had no wish to see the Government affected by the amendment, nor did he think he would command a sufficient following to carry the amendment. If he had succedod in directing attention to the paramount importance of a local government scheme, his amendment bad served the purpose. He would therefore ask leave to withdraw the amendment. Leave was refused. Mr Letestam supported the Bill. The motion for the second reading was then put and agreed to, and the Bill ord> red to be committed this day week. The House rose at X.lO a.m.