BY SIX VOTES TO FOUR.

Gisborne Times, Volume XXXV, Issue 3943, 28 May 1913, Page 5

BY SIX VOTES TO FOUR.

BOROUGH ENGINEER DISPENSED WITH, GRANTED THREE MONTHS’ SAL,ARY IN LIEU OF NOTICE. , SEQUEL TO OR, WADE'S NOTICE OF MOTION.

Exceptional interest was taken in Or. Wade’s notice _of motion to dispense with the services of the Borough Engineer, which came up at the meeting of the Borough Council last- night. Public interest in tho matter was proved by the large attendance of ratepayers, the Council Chamber beingpacked with upwards of a hundred keenly-interested persons. Cr. Wade’s notice was couched in the briefest terms:—

“That the Engineer’s services be dispensed with.”

He said his reasons for moving the motion was not from any personal motives. He respected Mr Paterson, but ho held that Councillors were there as trustees for the ratepayers, and had to study the interests of the borough. He did not wish to attack Mr. Paterson as an engineer, hut lie held that gentleman was a ■decidedly poor administrator.-^He had absolutely no system, and he held that it was essential for a city engineer with a large staff under him to have a system, There had been many days when ho had come down, and could not find Mr. Paterson. He had seen foremen, with many men under them, waiting about to get instructions. Mr. Paterson had proved that ho could not give them valuo for the moneys they expended. _ The manner in which the tramway construction work in Gladstone Road had been carried out, for instance, was sufficient to justify any engineer’s services being, dispensed with. Councillors could never approach Mr. Paterson: If they did so. he would simply say, “Move a vote of no confidence.” He should have been prepart'd to accept advice from the trustee,s of the ratepayers. With regard to Gentle Annie Quarry, Mr, Paterson had told thorn two years ago that there was plenty of metal there. The Council had gone out the Other day and had found no rnet-al there at all. Mr; Paterson was responsible through his reports and recommendations for tho tramline being into Gentle Annie to-day. In ally business a credit must be shown at. the end of the vear.

At this stage the Mayor intimated that Cr Wade’s time was up. Cr. Collins seconded the motion pro forma, intimating that he reserved the right to ijeplv. The Mayor ruled that (>. Collins could not speak later if he did not take the opportunity at this >tage. Cr. Collins maintained that according to tho rides of debate he could reserve the right to speak later. Tho Mayor then admitted that this was so.

Cr. Hill moved the following amend ment:

‘•Tim t before considering Cr. Wade’s motion dispensing with the services of the Borough Engineer. (1) Or. Wade be asked to state a specific charge or charges in writing, setting ’orth substantial reason or reasons for the guidon--,- of councillors to justify the Engineer’s dismissal; (2) In accordance with British fair play the Borough Engineer l>e granted a fair and impartial hearing Upon such charges before a competent engineering authority appointed by this Council.”

Cr. Hill said ho realised to the fullest degree that they were there to find out as laymen, whether, the Borough Engineer’s services should be dispensed with on the motion or Cr. Wade. He asked CY. Wade a failquestion,. For what? Such an action to his mind, to dispense with the .services of the Engineer without any reason was not British fair play,_ unless Mr. "Wade made a charge of incompetence that he could prove by professional expert advice. Cr. Hill referred CY. Wade to a n interview ho had with a journalist, contained in the “Poverty Bay Herald.” of the 20th May, 1913, which read :

“Cr. Wade went on to explain that ho was not acting from any personal motives a-s far as the Engineer was concerned. He not only regarded him very highly personally,'but also recognised his undoubted engineering ability. ■ He considered, however, that his administration was at fault, and that there had been extravagance. That being so, he thought it was Ids duty to bring tho matter before the Council.”

C.V. Hill continued: Has it ever occurred to Cr. Wade that the Finance Committee govern the expenditure of die Borough, and Cr. Made hi nines the Engineer for ruthless expenditure? I submit that the Engineer is purely and simply an engineer at the mercy of the Finance Committee, .so that the incompetency question falls upon the Finance Committee, for not keeping a tight rein on expenditure in the Borough, etc. There is another aspect of the question regarding engineering difficulties winch surely must weigh in favor of our Borough Engineer W hen that big engineering firm, J. McLean and Co., took the contract for the, Otira tunnel, did they expect at that time that they were going to bo hampered in the way they were with strikes, men demanding higher wages ana higher prices than was contemplated? Even that largo and keen brained man, Mr. J. McLean, failed in liis estimate tor the Otira tunnel. So that you can apply the position exactly to Mr. Merchant, who gave the Borough his advice lor the enormous Lee of £3,evO, which oui engineer was asked to carry out. before ever it was anticipated that demands would ariso n-sking lor iughei wages and higher prices for material. Our engineer could not civ a u impossibility, and I submit 'that we, as reasonable men, could not expect him to do it. So wo tell him because he cannot do >aii impossibility that hi* services aro not wanted. I appeal to you, gentlemen, yls our engineer responsible for the fluctuation of working material or the rise in Regarding tho sewerage, Or. Mill proceeded, Mr Marcham gave an estimate based on Timaru, winch could not apply to the Gisborne conditions in regard to laying the sewers. Did Mr Marchant allow in has estimate for the water trouble in the trenches? He understood that he'did not, but the Engineer was expected—whether he did or not—to complete the sewers on the basis of a dry area all round, not in anyway allowing for a water trouble, and at an estimate msumcieht for the work. To Ins mind the times were moving 60 quickly that, metaphorically speaking, what prices were put on works and contracts sign- . ed to-day did not apply to to-morrow. He submitted that if an engineering ‘ .authority were called in to give his advice on the position of the Borough of Gisborne as it is to-dav he would sav that our engineer had done exceedingly well considering -the vast difference now in regard to wages troubles. The Engineer seemed to eet no praise for his hard work accomplished: He had saved a fey hundred pounds over the Kaiti reservoir, and - his ideas were confirmed by Mr Metcalfe, of Auckland. The Engineer had done york which, on the surface,. I - -.showed no return, but was only now waiting to have some minor matters '.attended to, . when, the '• •'v : 'iwpnld be in full swmgr" Or. Wide did

not want to give tho Engineer any credit whatever for his labors, but wanted to appoint a man at £IOOO a year straight away to complete tho easy pOftion of tho work. He said Let Mr Paterson, finish what he had begun, arid then thoy could praise or blame him. It was curious that Mr Wade had always before been a consistent supporter! of the Engineer. Proceeding, Or. Hill contended that the loans were grossly underestimated from the first, and it would be interesting to learn whether the Engineer was to be blamed for that, considering that that eminent engineer, Mr Merchant, made tho estimates P If they got a new Engineer it would mean 12 months to 2 vears before he got into the general run of affairs. No doubt at the end of that period the ratepayers would feel dissatisfied at the way tilings were moving. Tho continual interference with the Engineer, fo his mind, held that gentleman up to ridicule by his fellow workers, and therefore tho same amount of energy was not displayed to get valuo for money expended by the Borough. ■Place confidence in him, and as Cr. Wade said, his engineering ability was undoubted. If the motion to dispense with the Engineer’s services was carried Borough affairs' would be-in a chaotic condition, and with Overseer Darton’s illness matters would bo at a standstill. It meant further, that the various works such as electric light and tramways would bo undermined, as if a new Engineer were appointed lie would proceed, in his own way; and matters in general in the Borough would be in a serious position of disorganisation. He held that tho Engineer had been asked to carry out more administration than ho Was engaged for, and that the salary paid to him by the Borough was small for the work lie had undertaken. He had saved the Borough hundreds of pounds in administration. Cr. Hill concluded: “I say if it can be shown to me by professional expert evidence that out Engineer is wrong in his estimates for works done, or in accordance with Mr Maxchant’s estimates, and that our Engineer’s methods are proved to be extravagant, then I shall -have no hesitation whatever in voting against him. I therefore hope lastly that before this Council votes against the Engineer the benefit of any misunderstanding will be given him.” Or. Wildish supported the motion. He .had gene into the matter deeply, and had come to the conclusion that there had been toe much extravagance.

Cr. Brown seconded the amendment pro forma, reserving the right to speak later. Or. Bright said Cr. Wade had referred strongly to the fact that Councillors were trustees of the ratepayers. Personally, although not in favor orf the amendment, he considered that while they had a. duty to the ratepayers to perform, they had also a duty to their employees. Specific charges should be brought. The whole of the work dene by the Engineer .should bo reviewed before they blamed him. Any faults which could be brought against the Engineer were outweighed by tho much good work lie had done. He instanced tho reconstruction of the waterworks and the sewerage works. In the latter the Engineer had cut out several pumping stations and had saved the borough hundreds of pounds a year. He would vote against the motion, as" he considered Or. "Wade’s charges v too indefinite.

Cr. Hepburn said he had had grave doubts about tho ability of Mr. Paterson ever since the construction of the Stanley Road septic tank. He laid watched the sewerage works, and considered it was costing the Council too much. He had gone down to Hastings and had found that trenches which were costing Gisborne £2.1 a chain was being done in Hastings for £9. The kerbing had also cost too much. The Stanley~Road tank and the Gentle Annie cjuarrv lino had all cost far moro than the estimate. Money had been simply thrown away. He instanced many cases of wasteful .methods which, he said, he had seen as he went round. He would vote for the motion. Cr. Smith said ho regretted very' much that certain Councillors had seen fit to bring forward' such a motion so early with a. new Council. It would have been hotter if time had been allowed for the new Mayor and new Councillors to get a grip of matters, This motion had been brought forward la-st year and had been defeated. He* had given the matter every consideration during the past -week, and thought it was going to bo a close vote. No good -would be done if it was only deckled to retain Mr Paterson’s services bv a small majority, as every engineering proposal brought forward would be opposed. Looking at the question in this light he hadTdecided to vote for the motion. . . Cr. Collins agreed with Cr. Bright that Councillors were at the Council table in the interests of the ratepayers. but he held that the interests of the borough could only lie in the continuity of administration. If a, departmental officer stood as.a. vail. in front or- continuity of administration he should go. -- He referred to Mr Morgan, a man. eg integrity, who had served the borough for many years faithfully. He had boon , forced to resign in order, he alleged, to shield the "man who he considered had been in the wrong—the Engineer. The Mayor and councillors had agreed that reorganisation was necessary. "When - one. intended to cut a tree down one did not start at the top branches but at the roots. The Mavor said he did not quite follow Or Collins’ simile, Cr Collins retorted that he would then try and put it in langauge that any child could understand. Continuing, O Collins asked. “Can anv councillor say that this council lias not been selling stone to the Cook Countv Council at a loss?” 'Who, he asked, was responsible for the amount in the agreement made with the County— the Engineer—and they would have to go on selling metal at a loss as long-as the Council held them to their agreement He instanced the Engineer’s, contradictory reports concerning Kaitaratalii shindo in one of which he called it “slurry.” Yet this year they .were providing for 8000 yards of Kaitavatahi metal. Cri Hills had said that the Engineer Was ruled by the finance Committee. Did it ever -strike Cr Hill that the Finance Committee ever, had to provide ways and means no matter if' there were mal-admim-fatrCr!°Collins, who had spoken for 15 minutes by permission of the Council, was at this point cut short by the 11 PV Brown said he had listened with attention for the charges which were •to be bjpughfc against the Engineer, but ha<f heard very few.. Or. Wade complained that the Engineer was not an administrator, and that the Gentle tnnie tramline had cost too much. Well, perhaps Cr. Made could tell wluat the line should have cost, but in 'his opinion they had not been so far wide of the mark. With regard to the quarrv, the Council had had reports from Mr. Jarrett and other exports, and also amateurs, and they had said that if they went on with they would got metal: With regard to Cr. Hepburn’s figures. Councillors would remember when tfiat <-eutleman had gone to Hastings and had come back with such wonder ful accounts of the cheap rate at which they were carrying out municipal works at Hastings, the Council had gone to tlie trouble of 'writing to Hastings to get the exact figures with regard.to the works* in progress there. The replies from Hastings had proved that Or. Hepburn’s figures existed, only in his own imagination. This had been a tender subject with Councillor Hepburn, and he had never mentioned it at the Council table until that evening. .Or.' Hepburn explained thatlys figurcs • were Obtained 1 fforif 'th&iEhgineer

at Hastings, and were in writing, the letter being handed to the Council on his return.

The Mayor .said the motion proposed, to take away from him one of his chief administrative officers, and for that reason lie would esteem it a flavor to bo extended' a little extra time to reply. He would not ask.'. Councillors to support him, however.. Ho had no party. He had boon now three weeks in tho Mayoral chair, and ho thanked Councillors for the courtesy and consideration which had been extended to him. Ho asked Councillors to voto as their consciences dictated, but before doing so to weigh all matters which had been brought before them. Ho believed in trusting tho people, but tho people might bo led astray if things' were put before them in a wrong way. Were the people crying out that' the Engineer should be removed? Two motions had been brought up in the past to remove tho Engineer, but both'had been defeated. Ho (the Mayor) had thought at. one time that the Engineer had- many things to explain, but since being placed in supremo command he had found that the Engineer whs a much mono capable officer than he had thought previously. Was it in the interests' of tho Borough that this man should bo sent away at the present time ? Had any man 'had to contend against worse difficulties than Mr. Paterson had had to face? lie asked. What with tho roads, the sewerage, electric light, and tramways, the basic principles of the lastnamed not being understood, the Engineer had, Herculean labors in his hands. They had had a multitude of consulting engineers, but he pointed out that Mr. Paterson, who was only a constructing engineer, had made alterations in the sclieiiies, which had saved the borough hundercls of pounds. They had 1 paid one engineer £3500 for a scheme, which the poor constructing engineer had to carry out. Who was to say whether the consulting engineer had not been to blame. 'With regard to Cr. Wade’s complaint that Mr. Paterson was not to bo found in the office, how could he be in tho office when ho had so many duties to attend to? They blamed Mr. Paterson for Gentle Annie, but he would remind them that they had opened up the quarry before Mr. Paterson came here, and he had told them that they were opening it np -in the wrong place. With regard to selling metal to the Cook County Council, Councillors should take their share of the blame for this. Concerning the Engineer’s conflicting reports with regard to Kaitaratalii shingle, could any of the Councillors say that they had not changed their minds? Cr. Hepburnl have never changed my mind regarding Gentle Annie, your Worship. The Mayor: I believe that. Continging, he said that he considered that it would not be in. the interests of the borough to dispense with the Engineer at the present stage. However, ho felt sure that Councillors would weigh the matter fairly, and vote as their consciences dictated. .

Or. Wade, in replying, said the Mayor’s remarks would lead one to believe that Mr. Paterson was on his tidal on a. capital charge. He did not hold the same views regarding the Engineer as his Worship did. However, ho thought the time had come when they should leave sentiment and get down to business. The very fact thot the Mayor in throe short weeks had cut down expenses bv £36 a week was a proof that there was something very wrong with Mr. Paterson’s administration. The Mayor: I take no credit foi that, hut rather give the credit to the Engineer, who was only too ready to accept my suggestions. Continuing, Cr. Wade said if they allowed the present administration to go on the borough would be bankrupt in two years. It was not cue or two matters, but a multitude of serious matters that was wrong. Who was responsible for the groat amount of monev that had been wasted "on the streets? There was not a decent street in the borough. Or. Bright: Peel Street. Cr. Wade: Mr. Morgan had charge of, that Cr. Bright: I don’t think so. Cr. Wade: in any case, look what it cost. They had proofs of - the Engineer’s incompetence in road management in all parts of the borough. Ihe kerbing and channeling had cost far too much. With regard to the tram line construction, it was a glaring instance of mismanagement. They liad also hundreds of pounds worth of machinery going to wdsto in the borough. They were, as it were, now having an annual balance, and that was the time to put things in order. He would give In's Worship credit for the improvement which had taken pLace-since he came into office, but if the Engineer was competent he would not require orders from anyone. The Mayor said he did not give orders: ho simply gave suggestions. Cr. Collins: An. engineer is not like a doctor, your Worship; a doctor can bury his mistakes. (Laughter)—, The Mayer: Or a lawyer, lie can have his hanged. (Renewed laughter). Cr. Wide said they had tho best interests of the borough to consider, and if Councillors caned his motion they would be doing a good thing for the town. Thea menclme.it was then put and lost, the voting being:

For. v Against The Mavor Cr. Wade Cr. Hill - Collins. Or. Bright. Smith. CY. Brown. .Sherratt. Hepburn. Wildish. The motion was then put and carried by 6 votes to 4, the voting being as before. Tho Mayor said the vote placed the borough in a very serious position, and he asked tho" loyal co-operation ■of Councillors in tiding through a difficult period. The Engineer was entitled to three months’, notice, and he suggested under the circumstances that he should be given three months’ salary in lieu of notice. This was agreed to, on the motion of Cr. Collins, seconded by Cr. Slierratt.