PARLIAMENT

Evening Star, Issue 6031, 11 July 1882, Page 2

PARLIAMENT

HOUSE OK REPRESENTATIVES

Monday, July 10.

NATIOXAL INSURANCE

The Treasurer rose to move his resolution on the subject of national insurance. It was the most important resolution he ever had been privileg«d to lay before the House. He would proceed to give a broad outline of the scheme, leaving details to be filled up afterwards. He claimed no originality. The idea had originated with the Rev. Mr Blackley in England. His scheme, however, ditiered" from the original one in one or two points designed to meet the requirements of the Colony. Mr Blackley's proposal was that if a man remained capable of labor he should have no right to claim from the fund. He (the Treasurer) proposed that everyone, without distinction, should draw from the fund. That was more in accordance with, tho feeling of tho Colony than the other. The question of a remedy for the pauperism of the Old Country had often been raised, but it was more readily asked than answered. As the aggregation of wealth increased, so did the unevenness of its distribution. The line had been brought sharper and sharper between the enormously rich and the extremely poor. Be the contributing causes to poverty what they might, they did exist, and it appeared to him they were gradually advancing. In this Colony the ratea of charitable aid were gradually increasing in proportion to tho population, and they must be prepared to see a large number of persons supported by charity unless they could devise some such scheme as this. No greater calamity could befall this Colony than tho adoption of a systom like- tho English Poor Law. It had degraded and demoralised one of the finest peasantries in tho world. The next question was, How could we provide for the masses without demoralising the people ? Tho remedy appeared to him to bo co-operative thrift and commerce ; andthat, to be successful, would have to be national. Tho predisposing causes of pauperism were then enumerated. Tho first two causes were lowness of wages and inability to get work. These could not affect a young progressive country like this to any great extent. Tho other causes were sickness and old ago. They were doing practically nothing to chock pauperism. They had charitable aids and charitable institutions, but theso did not aim at the root of tho evil. Friendly societies were no doubt doing a great work, but they did not grasp the evil as it existed. They made no provision for women. Otherwise, they failed to make complete provision for this evil as It existed in all its multifarious branches. All the persona who became national paupers wore aa a rule outside these societies. Alluding to a national voluntary society, he said it would be inoperative for the same cause that hamperod the friendly societies. In that case national and compulsory Insurance was tho only effectual way of grappling with tho evil. As regarded tho practicability of the scheme, there were those who thought tho minimum proposed was too hifh. If Buch were ahown to be tru> case he would be prepared to reduce it. He fixed tho minimum from inquiries made of theso societies as to the amount upon which persons could subsist. The next important matter was what to pay to obtain this. Every young man and woman between 16 and 23, or 18 and 23, would be charged at the rate of L4l 17s Id. This would be the total contribution required to provide for sickness and old age, and it would only represent 2s 3d per week if from 16 years, or 3s 3d if from 18 years. If the sum was paid down at 16, L3B 7s would suffice. To provide, however, for widows and orphans a further sum of 2s a week for five years would bo required. Looking at the rate of wwges and circumstances of the Colony he believed all could without difficulty pay theso Bums. The question Supposing they could not pay ? ho dismissed by stating that if such was tho case tho sooner they knew it and the fact was looked into the better. He, however, did not believe in any such doctrine of incapacity to pay. If provision was to be made it must be mado while they wero young. Men and women who stayed at homo and earned nothing he had no sympathy with. Either the father should be in a position to pay tho premium or else he should be wakened up to the importance of making these persons reproductive. He would bo told that this scheme would apply only to persons under 23, and a large proportion of the population would be outside the age. Ho would provide for tho existing population over 23 by compelling all persons above that ago to provide by payments not above L 6 a-year for a certain number of years, but he would not include females in this, and would leave out males over 50 who were already provided for by being members of friendly societies. Persons over 65years of age might, he thought, well be provided for out of the Conaolidated Revenue. Immigrants under 23 would bo treated as other young persons were, and thoso over that age as the present inhabitants were. Although not a part of his scheme, he thought it would bo quite legitimate that Crown land rents should be brought in to tho assistance of charitable insurance. Dealing with tho machinery for carrying out the scheme, he said it would be necessary to divide the Colony into two districts. Theso should bo co-terminouswith tho local bodies, and the administration to a great extent left in their hands. As regarded the collection of premiums, it would be necessary to make employers responsible for their punctual payment, and to stop the payments so made out of wages. In support of tho practicability of this, he referred to the fact that in England factoryowners were bound to stop tho school pence and pay it over to the school boards. A number of contributions from seafaring men were levied in a similar way, Tho investment of funds would have to bo attended to by a board presided over by a Minister of the Crown. As to deciding the securities to be ta.kon, he thought Government securities and freehold properties might bo taken. In that way ho was sanguine that 6 per cent, would l>e secured; and as tho tables wero fixed at a 4 per cent, rate, they would see that a considerable profit might arise. Ho would suggest that tho sick should bo looked after by an officer of the local body, assisted by district visitors. Tho sick-list could bo posted at the offioes of theso bodies so as to prevent, as far as possible, frauds. Travelling inspectors would also bo necossary. Ho was not proposing tho establishment of a largo department. He had taken all these matters into careful account, and was couvinccd that no cheaper method could bo devised for avoiding a poor law. There would be no forfeiture, so that one great drawback to tho friendly societies systom would bo obviated. He denied that these proposals wero a step outside the proper functions of Government. He disagreed with those who would oonfino the Government to polico duties The Government had already done what the greatest Radical five years ago never thought of. Nothing could be done now-a-days without combination. If they could promote the well-being of the people, and strike a fatal blow at pauperism, that certainly was within thefuuetionsof theGovernmont. Thoy had got compulsion already, so that tho argument that it was an interference with tho liberty of the subject fell to the ground. He would not admit lor a moment that tho scheme would clash with the friendly societies—the scheme proposed doing exactly what they were endeavoring to do, and would bring within its pale the community as a whole. It would enormously strengthen theso societies. The difficulty with a man was in making a first saving. In that way the scheme would as an incentive to join these societies, and instead of 20,000 he had no doubt their ranks would number 100,000. The proposal mado no provision for burials, medical attendance, and comfort!i. It only covered tho bare necessaries of existence, and left the friendly society to look after these very necessary provisions. ' Tho blind, imbeciles, and other unfortuiiates would haVc to bo provided for by m;c always supposing thoy had'no menus 'i.apablp qf paying tho premiums: Criminals, when he c&ugiit them, he would keep until they had repaid the fitait,. With respect to Clerks and the children

of others in genteel employment, they should give no encouragement,, and he would not make them subjects for pity or any exemption. Small Bottlers were also a class for whom some exception might be claimed. He argued, however, if they were not capable of paying this reasonable tax, then tho sooner they discontinued such employment tho better. The whole subject was ono to winch he had given deep consideration. Ho asked thorn to give it a similar share of their attention. It had been said that he purposed to make New Zealand a huge benevolent society. Ho would only bo glad if he could even claim to have had a hand in such a great work, for he was convinced it was practicable.

Mr Montgomery admitted that the Treasurer deserved the thanks of the country for the earnest attention he had given to this most important subject. It was not from any party feeling that he felt it to be his duty to let tho country know that objections had been made to the scheme proposed, and he wished to see the country weigh the value of these objections. Young persons of tho ages indicated might in many cases find difficulty in complying with the demand for premiums. Theso young persona often supported aged and infirm parents. Again, lie did not think sufficient attention had been given to the difficulties attending tho collection of these periodical payments, and great difficulty would be experienced in detecting persons malingering.

Sir G. Grky did not gather from what passed between tho two last speakers as to whether or not it was to bo regarded as an encounter. Tho Treasurer had not told them what was proposed to be done. This schemo was first prepared for England, but there was no analogy between this Colony and Great Britain. In England there was fixity of population, but here tho population was migratory. In England there was difficulty in investing small savings; here there was no such difficulty. He looked upon this as a fresh tax, and in his opinion it was a design to shift the taxation from property and put it on to the shoulders of tho people themselves. Thero wae only one bright spot n the Treasurer's speech. It was that the land was the property of the people, and should be used for the support of the peoplo ; but he did not tell them that he and his friends had robbed them of the best of theso lands. They made laws to their own profit and the plunder of tho people of the Colony. Poverty was threatening the Colony, and it was no wonder. The Treasurer would have done his duty better if he had put tho tax on theso properties. Look at tho immense value given to these properties by no labor of their owners. It would only have been right to have taken this tax out of their properties by means of a land tax. That was not tho case. A poll tax waß to bo imposed. He agreed in the opinion that this proposal would destroy the independence of the population. Tho effect of this law would bo to break up all mutual benefit societies. In that way a blow would be struck at the independence of the people. It was a blow at the family ; it was a blow at their Christianity ; it was a great attempt to Introduce- communism. In many cases the young peoplo would be unable to produce the money themselves, and to ask thoir parents to do it would bo to compel them to divert money from other legitimate purposes, It was another attempt to sweep tho savings of the people into the coffers of the Government, as with tho Public Trust and other offices. It would havo tho effeot of sapping all the finer feelings of our nature. The Treasurer had asked what was the duty of a Government. He replied that it included the making of laws that would encourage and protect friendly societies instead of crushing them out of existence, as was now attempted to be done. He would do his utmost to prevent tho motion passing. It was the duty of the Opposition to insist upon it being put to the vote, and not allow the Government to retire from thoir position. Ho asked members to stand by him, and bring the motion to a vote,

Colonel Trimble criticised the proposal, stating that tho payments proposed were too high, and that it would bo found impracticable. The scheme on the whole was a good one, but as it stood it was burdened with too many propositions. Mr Mosri looked upon the scheme as oppressive. Mr Huksthousb spoke in favor of the proposal, and

Mr Hutchison against it. Mr Shkehax did not think tho Treasurer had given the question tho consideration it deserved. They were told that this proposal would not clash with the friendly societies, which meant that societies would get all the thrifty and provident, and that the thriftless and improvident would be left to the Government. This measure singled out the most helpless class in the country, and said : "We shall drag the tax out of you." Tho machinery proposed was most cumbersome, and the amount raised would be largely swallowed up in salaries. To make the proposal effective, they should make each class contribute according to their means. He concluded by an amendment that the proposal of the Government is not satisfactory. Mr Turnbull opposed tho proposal. Mr Shephard moved tho adjournment of the debate until to-morrow. PUBLIC WOKKS STATEMENT. The Treasurer said that he was not prepared, in tho face of the amendment just moved, to say that the Publio Works Statement would be brought down to-morrow. Mr Maoandrew said the amendment meant nothing, and they trusted the Statement would be brought down as originally proposed. Mr Seddon moved that the debate be adjourned till this day week. The Treasurer said it would be impossible now to discuss the question on its merits. Mr Sheehan said that the Government would not press tho question to a noconfidence motion. If tho latter was deemed advisable it would be taken on a very different basis. Mr Montgomery had accepted the Treasurer's assurance that he did not mean to press the question to a division. Speaking for the Opposition, he said they would not recognise it as a no-confidence question. Tho amendment did not come from, nor would it be supported by the party. Mr Fish said tho member for Akaroa was spoaking for tho party with wnich lie was identified. There was another party, and they thought the question should bo fully discussed. Tho Public Works Statement ought to be brought down to-morrow. Sir G. Grey said there was no intention of doing an act of discourtesy to tho Govern- ! ment. He took exception to Mr Montgomery spoaking as he had done. The motion for adjournment till to-morrow was then put, and carried on tho voices. The House roso at 1.35 a.m. [By Our Special Reporter.] WELLINGTON, July 11. Tho discussion regarding Mvjor Atkinson's National Insurance scheme occupied tho whole of last evening's sitting of the House. In propounding the scheme the Treasurer spoke for an hour and a-half, and though his speech fell somewhat flat, in consequence of tho'hon. gontleman not having yet recovered from the effects of a recent severe cold ; it was evident that ho was actuated by great earnestness of purpose. Tho whole of the speakers who followed gave him credit for the utmost sincerity, with tho single exception of Sir George Grey, who accu .ed tho Government of having submitted tho proposal in order to "put in " an odd night. Hon. members for the most part seemed to regard the schemo as impracticable and Utopian, and eventually Mr Sheehan moved an amendment to the effect that the proposal was not satisfactory. The Government evinced an inclination to accept this in the light of a no-confidence motion, but Mr Sheehan disclaimed any intention of making it such, intimating that a direct want-of-coniidenco motion would bo brought down shortly on a broader basis. Mr Montgomery also disclaimed such an intention on behalf of " the party "—a phrase which speedily brought Sir George Grey down on him, the member for Auckland East pointing iut there wore two sides in the Uouso, and a narty comprising independent mornhers. In tho end tho debate was adjourned for a week, which practically means that nothing more will be heard of the matter this session. To-morrow Mr Macandrew will ask the Minister for Works if attention has been called to tho necessity of deepening tho approach to tho now railway plor at Port Chalmers, so as to enable a steamship, now understood to bo on its way from England for 1 a cargo of frozen meat, to be brought alongside that pier ; and, if not, what dteps it is proposed to tftke in the matter.

[From a Correspondent.] WELLINGTON, July 11. It is gait! that Mr Slieohan and MrDargavilk-, whoso morbid desire for notoriety frequently prompts them to make tlicmsovos ridiculous, had, hoping to profit by differences of opinion freely expressed on what both tides were prepared to look on as an abstract questions, in no way involving party issues, arranged last night to bring in tho amendment on the Governnational insurance proposals', which amendment tho Government now propose to take as a no-conlidonce motion. So far, however, as I can learn from Opposition members tho moro moderate of them will refuse to acknowledge the right of such instigators of the amendment to compromise them, and, should tho vote be insisted on, many of tbem will walk out. They also assure me that many of the Government supporters, although opposed to the proposals, will vote with the Government under tho circumstances. [Per Prkss Association.] WELLINGTON, Jm.Y 11. This morning, after Sir George Grey had taken exception to Mr Montgomery speaking of " tho party," as it might affect the character of certain hon. members, his own included, Mr Montgomery said that ho had never alluded to Sir George Grey as being a member of his party. Mr Moss expressed a hope to see a great Provincial Party arise from tho present confusion. Mr Macandrew thought they should leave tho Government to arrange the order of their own business.