GENERAL DEBATE

Evening Post, Volume CXXX, Issue 58, 5 September 1940, Page 6

GENERAL DEBATE

SECTIONAL INTERESTS

PROBLEMS DISCUSSED

1 General discussion followed the '- opening addresses by the Prime Minis- - ter (the Rt. Hon. P. Fraser) and the; * Minister of Finance (the Hon. W. * Nash) to the conference. The discus- .. sion, in which representatives of many «of the sections represented took part, - occupied the whole of the afternoon * and the greater part of the session at 'h night. Speaking on behalf of the farmers, -Mr. W. W. Mulholland, president of * the New Zealand Farmers' Union, % quoted the case that he had put to the i Prime Minister on behalf of the I Farmers' Union, in association with *the Dairy Industry, Council. He said 3 the farmers were afraid of a policy * of continually increasing costs, even if * those costs could be recovered in their * prices, because they knew that after | the war they weregoing to sell on low- % priced markets, and if their costs were t such' tha^tvthey,could not produce at * those prices; vtherv^ew 7 Zealand must » lose those markets, with disastrous rer suits not only to the farmers but to

• everyone. "; "We would prefer a policy which S would enable us to keep; costs down," • said Mr. Mulholland, "but if that is

"not! possible, and not in conformity ; with Government policy.then in order " to enable us to maintain production our prices must be raised. Does the Government policy mean that it will only pay the farmer what it receives from _the Imperial Government? If so, then all other costs in "New Zealand must be related to those prices. If, on the other hand, the policy of the Government is that the farmers shall be paid prices that will recover their costs, then the approach.to the question of increased wages and charges generally is different. The farmers are very greatly disturbed at the proposal to increase costs which the recent award of the Arbitration Court has held out to them, and are anxious that something shduld be done to stabilise costs." . . : Mr. Nash: That means that farmers,, in general, are in favour of a procedure that will stabilise prices on a fair basis? . : Mr. Mulholland: Yes. WORKERS NOT SATISFIED. "The workers I represent are definitely not satisfied with the position as it stands today," said Mr. A. Cook, representing the New Zealand Workers' Union. They realised that to give an increase in wages that would possibly be taken away in the following week by an increase in the cost of living was of no use. If the wages' for all workers in industry were fixed on a par basis, and the,cost of living did not increase, there would be general satisfaction. "A policy similar to a dog chasing.its own tail is of no assistance to us," he added. Mr. Cook emphasised the need for harmonious relations between farmers and their employees in the interests of increased production, and contended that at the present time that co-opera-tion was sadly lacking. The result was that there was a tendency for the workers in the country to. : drift into the ; cities. That, he said, had been going on foirVa long time and was no goodf for any ; country. Satisfactory results would not bey obtained if there wasva dissatisfied army of farm labourers, anci they were definitely dissatis-, fied^at the present time. If,: said Mr. Cook, the conference did nothing more than to bring the farmers and the employees closer together with a complete understanding and-working in unity for the good of the country, then it would have rendered a\ useful service. Men were today \ being asked to leave industries where they were receiving a fair living, wage" to undertake work in the country below such a wage. Although the New Zealand; Workers' Union had made repeated, requests and had met the Farmers* Union representatives in conference, the Farmers' Union officials had' not been able to see their way-clear to treat tHeir workers in a fair manner. . :;ft A FRANK VIEW. Mr.--.-T, O. Bishop, secretary of the New. Zealand Coal Mine Owners' Association, introduced a frank note into the discussion. Ke said that 50,000 workers had been withdrawn from industry, and hi emphasised the importance of those remaining in industry doing their utmost to maintain production, even if it were necessary to forgo of the leisure formerly en- j joyed.' '*' "I ■ have an intimate knowledge of one industry," said - : Mr, Bishop, "and I have recently, been engaged in making a survey of it thfdughout'the Dominion. That survey is riot yet quite complete, but I have seen enough to be sure that what I am now going to say is entirely true. I -do not think anyone in that industry, with some few .exceptions, is'really putting forward the maximum effort of which he is capable with a sincere desire to

do all that lies within his power to produce to the fullest extent for the sake of the country. We are told, and we know it to be true,- that we are fighting for our lives, yet there is not the slightest evidence that we have any such knowledge. I have seen managers and officials' standing upon their dignity and attaching importance to trivialities which are not worth more than a few moments', consideration at any time. I have seen workers making disputes and holding up their own workas well as the work oJ whole organisations over questions that were of noparticular moment and which could be decided either way without anyone suffering more than a temporary and trivial annoyance. 'I have seen large bodies of men leaving their work regularly and systematically. day after day'an hour or more earlier than the knock-off time named in their own agreement and so deliberately curtailing their own earning capacity and their collective production. I have no hesitation in saying that.the industry is not organised for maximum production even on a peacetime basis, and that there is a most deplorable absence of the spirit of real co-operation between the section of the mine-workers from the manager to the trucker which is essential to efficiency. I do not know whether- that industry is typical of others, but -'I suspect that it may. be. Unless jit;;; be upon the land, there is no'■evidence of high-pressure work in this country. There is no indication other than the sight of uniforms in the streets that the country is at. war. There is no indication that we realise our standard of living depends upon our own efforts, and that if we want to enjoy consumption of goods we must first of all produce them. The real question facing the conference is how could something be done to arouse enthusiasm for work." WORKERS DEFENDED. The view that no useful purpose would be served by one section accusing another1 section of not making a sufficient effort and sacrifice was expressed by Mr. A. McLagan, president of the New Zealand Federation of Labour. He said that if the miners were not working, then he would like to know who did work for a living. There were other industries i. also in which only enthusiasm and readiness for work could lead men to take part in them and make them their life's work. The conference had been asked -to consider the possibility of stabilising costs, prices, and wages. It was rather a woolly job. He thought it would have been helpful had the Government attempted to give a guide to the conference- as what it wanted. However, he believed those he represented were just as willing as anybody else to make sacrifices to see that the war was won. Mr. McLagan said he thought the Price Investigation Tribunal should also have been' invited to the conference. Mr. Nash: The Minister is here. Mr. G. T. Thurston (New Zealand Engineers and Related Trades Union) suggested that the conference must take a survey of all industries. He did not see any other way of dealing with the question. BACK-COUNTRY FARMERS. Speaking in particular for the man in the back country, Mr. A. BriscoeMoore, one of the New Zealand Farmers' Union representatives, stressed the need: for improving the productive capacity of second and third class pastoral land, which, he said, formed the greater part of the productive land of the Dominion/ It was important that consideration should be given to this matter so that the volume of production would be such as to enable sufficient sterling funds being available to meet the Dominion's requirements and also to enable the farmer to purchase the goods made by New Zealand manufacturers. Mr, W. Machin (New Zealand Employers' Federation) said that the question of deferred maintenance mentioned by Mr. Briscoe-Moore was a very important one in the economy of New Zealand and it vitally affected the question which was implicit in the Prime. Minister's speech, that of more production. The primary producers had done well and had increased production,, the increase over ten years, he believed, being about 21 per cent, per head of the population. However, factory production had not increased per head of the population. VALUE OF WAGES. Mr. F. P. Walsh (New Zealand Federation of Labour) said he thought they would be doing better if they got down to the job than some of the speeches they had heard had done. A great deal iiad been said about the wages workers were receiving. They realised, however, that wages were of no value to them Unless they had the commodities to buy. It would appear that the time was rapidly approaching when there was going to be a shortage .of commodities. He believed, in .the interests of all, that that question should be examined and that the best place to do so would be; in committee. "I am pretty certain," Mr. Walsh said, "that the Labour movement is prepared to go on the same basis as the soldier and that what is over and above that should all go into the

State. The workers are not wanting to gain as a result .of the war. The workers are prepared: to- make equal sacrifices with any: other section of the community." He was satisfied that the representatives of the Labour j movement would be agreeable to the whole of production being placed in a common pool a"d to the workers receiving their due portion of the goods. That, he believed, would be a real war j effortMr. ■ Walsh said he realised they would; have to accept a reduced standard during the war. In accepting that reduced standard the workers wanted to see the whole of the population bearing an equal sacrifice. SHEEP FARMERS' COSTS. , Mr. W. H. Nicholson, secretary of the New Zealand Sheepowners' Federation, said the whole problem had to be considered on national lines. It was . not a sectional matter. Sheep farmers' incomes had been stabilised, but costs had not been stabilised. They could not go on any longer on lines like that without some adjustment. He suggested that there might be some form of subsidy on export prices based on ' index prices relating to various industries. It was the only alternative to an increasingly difficult position. He

agreed that consideration of the question could be more effectively done in committee.

Mr. C. V. Smith, president of the New Zealand Manufacturers' Federation, appealed for a little more tolerance in consideration of the problem. "I want to tell the workers' representatives here that there are some good employers and some poor ones," he said, "and I want to tell the other side that there are some good workers and some poor workers. There is no earthly good in indulging in recrimination. The position of the Dominion was as outlined this morning and we should start from there." He contended that the whole question could be better discussed in committee. DAIRY INDUSTRY. Mr. W. Marshall (Dairy Industry Council), referred to the increase in the price the dairy industry had asked for butter and cheese for the current year to meet the increases in costs and said that the price to be paid was at present under discussion with Mr. Nash. He said he thought it would have been better if the conference had been presided over by an independent chairman and if Ministers were not jumping up to defend Government policy if a delegate happened to criti-

cisc some aspects of it. Probably the position in which the dairy industry was today constituted one of the most, difficult problems facing the Government and country. The dairy farmer was operating under the Government's guaranteed price plan, and the Minister of Finance, he thought, had indicated very clearly the effect on the internal economy of New Zealand if prices were paid in excess of the prices being received in Great Britain. Mr. Marshall said that the competition from margarine in Great Britain and the fact that the New Zealand dairy farmers would be producing for an impoverished market led them to expect that at some point they would have to accept a substantially lower price, and when that occurred, in that year there might reasonably be a deficit of £10,000,000 in the Dairy Industry Account. The possibility of such a position had to be taken into ac-1 count. Mr. J. Ross (New Zealand Dairy Farm Employees' Union) . said he thought the conference should investigate the question of the efficiency of the dairy industry, in which he contended overlapping existed. It was a so-called co-operative industry, but it was only co-operative up to a point, because of the close factory competi-

tion in some parts. He submitted that [ there was scope for greater co-opera-tion and suggested that it would be helpful to the industry if its activities were extended to tree planting to produce timber for the industry's use. Mr. W. E. Hale, chairman of the Dairy Industry Council, said he agreed that in some districts there had been more factories than the number required, but most were cheese factories and they were proving of benefit in answering the call for increased production today. A great de 1 had been done in the direction of co-operation between the'industry and'the workers on the farm, and the industry would welcome suggestions as to how that co-operation could be stimulated and developed in the dairy factories. The Minister of Labour (the Hon. P, C. Webb) gave details of the operation of the 43 scheme to bring more land into production. Mr. K. J. Holyoake (New Zealand Farmers' Union) dealt with the position of fruit growers, who, he said,' received 5s a case for fruit this year compared with 6s in 1938 and 1939. Now they were faced with increased costs, working out at about 6d a case. If the same price was paid for fruit in the coming season the fruit grower would be Is 6d worse off per case i

than in 1938 and 1939. That was a pretty tough problem. Som^ orchards were not being continued, which showed that the fruit grower had not a great deal of confidence in the industry. ALTERED ECONOMIC ORDER. Mr. W. McAra (New Zealand Building Trades1' Federation) said that unless the conference could determine the alterations within the economic order that must be carried out to give effect to the Government's desires, then it would fail. The task could not be approached in the spirit that the existing methods could continue. The problem had to be considered on the basis j of what was the result desired. i Mr. F. D. Cornwell (Federation of! Labour) contended that if all indus-1 tries were efficient there would be no need for the propaganda directed towards extending the hours of work to more than 40 a week. In support of this contention he quoted figures i i showing increased production by emj ployees since the introduction of the 40-hour week. Mr. W. S. Mac Gibbon (Associated Chambers of Commerce) expressed the hope that the conference , would not be hurriedly dismissed without giving i serious consideration to what they had

been called together to deal with. He did not see how they were going to accomplish their task unless committees were set up to go into the matters affecting various industries and report at a later date.

I The motion providing for the seti ting up of the working committee and the procedure to be followed was moved by Mr. Nash, seconded by Mr. Thurston, and carried without dissent. After the personnel of the committee had been announced, Mr. Nash said that when the committee sat today at 10.30 a.m., it was intended to place certain proposals before .it Secretaries would be available to the committee and sub-committees, and Mr. P. R. M. Hanna, chairman of the . Associated Banks, would arrange to supply the committee with any technical or general information regarding banking that was required. x

Mr. Nash added that he thought it would probably be some time next week before the conference was called together again. The Government desired to get the report as soon as pos-, sible.' There were a number ;of anomalies "hanging in the air" that some of the considerations of the committee might help to remove.