BUDGET DEBATE

Evening Post, Volume CVI, Issue 14, 17 July 1923, Page 10

BUDGET DEBATE

CONCLUSION REACHED

; PRIME MINISTER REPLIES TO ?.: . • CRITICS

"' '■ TAXATION AND SHIPPING,

;; The debate on the Financial Statement ,'was resumed last night in' the House of •' Representatives by . Mr. J. A. Nash ;'(Palmerst6n North), and was brought to la .conclusion just before' half-past 2 To'clock this morning.- • '

"Z. .The Budget, said Mr. Nash, had been by' opponents of the Government, but he held that it contained good Tnews, and "was one of the brightest Bud"gets yet produced. It was true that the Party had placed the State Advances Act on the Statute Book, but lie Jin'oubted whether \ the Liberals -would had the courage to submit the prorposals for increasing, advances which now before the House. The Budget ~was a most humanitarian document. •Criticising the Labour Party, Mr. Nash f-jsaid it had tried to make love to the after the war by pleading for gratuities. He . believed that -the Labour Party's land policy had been /formulated by a watchmaker, as had ibeen stated in the Press. . Mr. Nash. Jqcoted from a,letter written by a proeminent Labour man, stating that the Party's land policy had been .^drawn.up for the special purpose of de...ceiving the farmer; in other words, to catch the .innocent farmer's vote. What ■ was wanted in this country to-day was _: the spirit of the pioneers, and in that he. doubted very much some of the present Labour /members would go into the country for Itten years to break in a virgin piece of j^land. . Mr. Nash appealed for support •:for the fruit industry, and then referred :-to Imperial problems, urging that the 7 Dominions should have representation in ;the House of Commons, and members of , the House of Commons seats in Dominion '.Legislatures. This would make for views on Empire matters generally. Mr. Massey had been referred to 7as " an extinct political volcano " by the "tmember for Wanganui; but the speaker that the Prime Minister- had -always shown courage, and had grappled Kwith- urgent questions fearlessly, as witness the 1913 strike, the last seamen's -strike, and the Near East trouble. When ;;Mr. Massey's time came, his name would >be written on the scroll of fame as one -'who did his duty to his country.

'." ; A MODIFIED POLICY? Z- -Mr. E. J. Howard (Christchurch JSbuth) stated that the statement quoted "'by Mr. Nash., about the Labour Pary's ;^land policy was made by a man who was Xan opponent of the present political ~;Labour Party. Members of the House ■v-were not now so accustomed to abuse 2.the • Labour Party in the same way' as TJthey bad done in the past. jf A Reform member:" Your policy is

£ ;Mr. Howard replied that the Labour -.Party's policy was th« same to-day as .when the first Labour representative was '...returned to the House. : The Reform 'Party had no vision, and. had/adopted ■ the.policy of the pauper—" Sufficient"for ;;,;the day is the evil thereof." Looking -.at. the Budget, it certainly showed; a •(satisfactory result on the year's working, but they had to look at more than i'jthat. The Government did not seem to •-.have any perspective to meet the eco- ~ ii'omic situation that would probably last some time as the result of the war. other Dominions, land was being set Japart' for immigrants, but all that was in the Dominion Budget.-was that ~4Q7j000 syjres: were under survey. The Government should have stated where the land was. New Zealand, as a ship of State, was running on to rocks, which -were plainly charted, because she had been there before, and had bumped fcadly. He referred to Sir Julius „/Vpgel's immigration policy. New Zealand '-t^as now almost lying in order to entice I'^people here, and yet everyone knew that the hope of this country was in having numerous dairy farmers. What was happening "with immigration, now was that too many townsmen were being brought out. After the Vogel boom there came depression, but the policy of that Administration was such that it took the country years to recover. He •was afraid there was all the evidence that what had happened after the Vogel ■boom would occur again. The farmers were waking up to the fact that their interests were being ; prejudiced by the operations of. broking and shipping trusts, and- commercial men were complaining- -that everything was in the bands of trusts and combines. The Government was not satisfying the working class or the farmers, and its policy was having a^serious effect on the birth-rate of the country,' because the Arbitration . Court made provision for those -with two children only. All above two could starve.

Mr. J. Edie (Clutha) said that 1, land ' settlement was the key to the country's problems. He was glad that penny; postage was coming, but thought-it should lave been reverted to before. The beekeeping industry, had, he was" glad to say, received recognition in the.Budget, because it was going to be of much importance in the future. The subsidies to hospitals should be increased from 12s in the £1 to a flat rate. • A LIBERAL "CHILD." j The State Advances Department was tme of the Liberal Party's children. .-:-Mr.-.Wilfbrd: "The Reform Party is the stepfather." Mr. Edie: "Stepfathers are no good in a matter of this kind." Mr.' Nash had praised the Government for what it had done in connection with the Department, .;.s>Dt the speaker's reply was that the Lib- ( erals would have done it sooner. . War pensions to-day averaged £51 per year, and no man could live "on that. One of £bi first claims should be the granting of ifficfeased'pensions to the soldiers. •' j :Ti;.Mr,.':.y;...H.\ Potter (Rbskill) said he] ;i.9P.ed the-Prime-Minister had taken a .iiote of theVhumerous suggestions for boripwing;that had been made by opponents | ■of the-Government in the House. The . -total-he had estimated op to the present 'jivas'£6s,ooo,ooo, and yet it was suggested that the Government should put its •hand in-its pocket to provide increased pensions. : While much could be done to improve the railways, he contended that, in'comparison with other countries, the NewrZealand railways were well managed. „'The salary of the General Manager wasT less than l-130th per cent, of the capital, invested in the railways. So far, as'fares ..were concerned; the public in New Zealand were treated better than the-people in Australia. Mr. Potter quoted.figures in support of ..his argument. -Queensland stood " out on its own."«.'.with. a railway deficit of £8,000,000,: whereas New Zealand had a surplus of £500,000. , 7Z''^.';A DIVES BUDGET. 1? ■■-■-■■.- .;Mr.-J. : .O'Brien (Westland) said'-the Budget-was a Dives Budget, and when they looked into it they saw that some, crumbs were likely to fall from the Wble into the hands of Lazarus. Some

people seemed to think that the sun shone from the head of the Prime Minister. Statistics showed that the wealth of the country was going into the hands of ■ fewer people. The Reform Party was trying to fool the fanner, but it would not be possible to do that for much longer. Nine millions had been put into the pocicets ofthe wealthy, and" one million had been.taken from the poor people. The people were not going to get any benefit from the removal of the tea duty, as it had been stated already that 'tho price .was going,up.. So long as>a sympathetic Government was on the Treasury benches', the combines' would "skin" the people.; ..

.. Tne Hon. A. T. Ngata (Eastern Maori)' congratulated Sir Maui Pomdre on being elevated to Cabinet tank, and asserted .that the Minister was not receiving fair treatment if he did not get the full salary of his office. He stated that he' had asked the Prime Minister if Sir Maui Pomare was getting the "screw" that should go with the office of Minis,ter of Health, and . Mr. Massey had replied that the matter was under consideration. He hoped thai the matter had advanced beyond that stage. Speaking of Native rating, Mr. Ngata said there was not sufficient co-ordination between the Department concerned withthe compilation of the valuation roll and the local body. The Native Land Court might be used to a greater ex- j tent in compiling- the roll. That might be a etep towards fixing responsibility for the rate 3.: The question could only be determined by finally settling the title and ownership of Native lands. Officers of the Native Land Court should be put in.the same position as other Departmental officers, so that they could receive instructions to carry out the will of the Government at any time. PENSIONS DEPARTMENT " ' CRITICISED. Mr. J. A. Young. (Waikato), after dealing with Imperial affaire arid criticising arrangements made in connection with the importation of bran and pollard, remarked that the whole pensions system required overhauling. The property and income provisions in respect to applicants for the old ags pension needed to be made easier because they tended to discourage thrift. In respect to children'the age limit be raised,.to 16. Before income taxes of well-to-do people were reduced something should be done to assist those who were on the lower, rungs of the social ladder and were hard up. Mr. W. E. Parry (Auckland Central) : "Come over here." (Laughter.) Mr. Young: "No, I am in the right place." . ...-.-■ Speaking of soldier -pensioners, Mr. Young said there appeared to be something wrong with, the ■ administration of the Pensions Department. It was not ;s sympathetic as it ought to be. In too many cases there seemed to be a heartless cutting down of pensions. He would like to sco a soldiers' pension appeal board established. They had been told that they had a soldiers' appeal board, now. Nothing of the sort. One man was judge and jury, and everything else. They wanted established a tribunal where the maimed soldier would have representation. If a man got a fair hearing and was. turned down be felt that that man would be satisfied. Mr. Young mentioned the case of a man who had ,frost-bitten fingers, and who, he contended, had not received proper attention from the Department. He brought these matters up_ in public, because he had found, that if they were.not discussed in public nothing was done. It. was his opinion that the Minister signed correspondence in regard to soldiers, and did not know what was in the letters. "It is. my business to express opinions on facts before me," said Mr. Young. "If they are not correct, well, let them have ■ a-tribunal wb.ere a man can go."and ex-' pose, the whole thing.'? As far as he' could' see the:.soldier was ;not- getting a fair run, and yet the speaker was told to wind n ; g own t us ; ne3a j n ■. r^_Bar a to soldier settlement, it broke his heart when committees were set up to investigate hardship it took such.a long time to get something done. There must be a revaluation of soldiers' lands, and cheap money must be made available in order that people might be able to meet the position that, would arise when-the moratorium ended. Mr. L. M'llvride (Napier) devoted the greater portion of his remarks towards condemning the capitalistic system, which had been defended by the Minister of Education, and then appealed for better treatment for soldiers suffering from T B _"Mr. G. Svkes-,(Ma£terton) defended' the Governments land policy, and said he was glad to see that taxation was eoing to be reduced. He hoped that interest rates would fall accordingly, but it had to be remembered that the cost of living i could not be reduced unless taxation was brought oown; ■..,.. THE PRIME MINISTER REPLIES The Primo Minister rose to reply at 1.10 a.m. He said that legislation'was required to assist the soldiers and settlers, and those people would be glad to know that.the debate was over. They had witnessed an extraordinary position in regard to no-confidence motions, and yet the people wanted the business of the country to be proceeded with. He did not know how.the House was going to get on with the legislative programme to.allow New Zealand's representative to go to the Imperial Conference but he was not worrying. All the attacks made on the Budget had made no more im.pression than' a shower of hail' on the Great Pyramid or a battery of pea-shoot-ers on a battleship. (Laughter.) The Budget still stood, and it', remained the finest the countryhad ever seen. Regarding the public debt; the indebtedness of the exfantry had been reduced in the twelve months by £1,324,----923. With regard to taxation, he had not climbed' down in his opinions, as he had always held.that taxation should bo imposed according to the ability of individuals to pay. The policy of the Government was to reduce taxation all round so far as their means'would permit. He did not think they could Ret back 'absolutely to the: pre-war position, but after reductions had been made then let them remove, anomalies.

NO EXTRAVAGANT EXPENDITURE.

Mr. Maseey asked to be shown a single instance- of extravagant, expenditure. If he could be shown such an instance, then he would admit'it. He' did not know Vzhelre. ..there, .had-, .been.■ 'extravagance. •The soldiers settlement question had to be placed on a satisfactory basis, and as far as he was concerned there would be no cheese-paring. Very cai'eful arrangements would havo to be made in re-ar-ranging loans outside New Zealand, aggregating; £30,000,000. The moratorium position would have to be watched very, carefully. He had been informed, however, that arrangements were.b.eing steadily made' as between mortgagors and mortgagees. Money was owing to Government Departments, but there was good security. The Government was out to see the /situation through, and would not desert those who .were in a bad position. •

It had been said that the Government had no land policy, but he "refuted that, and quoted what had been done in respect to the reclamation of swanra lands He had seen what was coin£ on for himself, and was quite well aware of tho position. In Central Otago it was possible to irrigate, every acre of flat land, and what was'being, done there would, be felt sure, in.a few years turn a/Jesert into ft garden. On the'gumlands much had been done, and ,r. number of sections would be advertised for:, shortly. Kei»ardin£ the , cuttine up .of runs, he tad been informed that some of the sub-

divisions were beinj made altogether toa small, and that matter would have to bo faced. ■-.'■•

COMPANY TAXATION.

Regarding company taxation, he had been asked in the recess to do something, and the Committee that had reported on the subject had done good work, although he . did not agree with all the recommendations. * He wanted to make things as easy as possible for the companies, but they had a!so to consider individuals. He knew that there was no chance of doing it, but he would be willing to. knock out the land tax for farmers and, collect the revenue through the .income tax only. In-: regard" to banking, Mi\ Massey said that if an agricultural bank was established in this country he hoped it would be as successful as its promoters expected. With the money he had in the Advances Department he could do more for the settlers than twenty agricultural banks. The Bank of New Zealand was a very useful institution to this country, and when a. pending transaction was completed the State would control £1,500,000, or a third of the capital of the bank. It would be folly, he contended, for a State Bank to be act up against,the Bank of New Zealand. He wanted to get interest as low as he possibly could get it, and when he had complained on the point to the Associated Banks they had told him to reduce the income tax. The income tax in respect to banks, Mr. Massey pointed' out, was collected according to the business done.

The Government had not borrowed money to assist the Consolidated Fund; such a thing could not be done. Money had been made available between one Department and another, but that was not using borrowed money for revenue purposes.. ' ■ ■

The Meat Board had been able to reduce shipping freights very considerably, to a total of £575,000 per annum, in fact. That was almost as good as an increase in prices. Port charges had also been reduced in London. They were still high, and he might be able to "do something in that respect when he went^ to London! The setting up of the Meat Board had been a .wise thing, and he thought it had been well that the compulsory clauses of tho Act had not been enforced. It would be a good things he thought, to assist the dairy people, also, by setting up a board of control. Legislation on those lines would be considered this session. A SHIPPING OFFER. ' Mr. Massey characterised as unworthy the attack thai had been made on the Minister of Customs by Mr. Masters. If he could do anything to reduce shipping charges he would be quito willing to do it. When last in the Old Country he had been offered six ships at a fair market price, but he had been informed that they would soon be obsolete in view of the advent of the Diesel ' engine. When he returned he consulted some of his farmer. friends on the offer, and they had advised him to let the matter go and try..to secure reductions in freights. Mr. Massey drew attention to the fact that America. Canada, and other Dominions had lost money over shipping. If freights could.be got down to a reasonable rate, well and good, but, if not, then he would be prepared to ask j for assistance for the settlers in that connection. ' Mr. Massey strongly resented a statement by Mr. S. G. Smith (Taranaki) that \ the Budget had the appearance of having j been "cooked." He considered it would | have been a criminally libellous state-' ment if made outside the House. Either Mr. Smith was too stupid to understand'the'figures, or he had sought to deliberately misrepresent them.' ;..The Leader of the Opposition: "That is just'Tude.". . ■ ' . -„ Mr. Massey: "I don't care what it is, but I am not going to allow. that statement to go forth." FAR FROM BANKRUPTCY, ' It was not true than the country, was drifting to bankruptcy. Customs duties had been increased, but on luxuries. There was never a' time in the his-I tory of the country when they were so far.' away from bankruptcy. Last year j a saving of £30,000 had been made in j connection with the management of i loans in London. An extraordinary tiling happened, and the Department of Inland Revenue at Home had "collared" £14,000"of that" £30,000:; - ; |

A voice: "For income tax.','

"Yes," replied Mr. Massey, "but I. have not done with that matter yet." (Laughter.) Stock on London registers was .to be transferred to New Zealand registers, which'would mean that this country would get income tax. from it. The Prime Minister- concluded his speech at 2.25 a.m. by reiterating what he had said about' the Budget being the best yet- ■ p'nt before, the country. The House .immediately went into Committee of Supply on the Estimates, progress was reported, and tho Housb at once adjourned at 2.27 a.m. until 2.30 p.m. to-day.