HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES. Yesterday Afternoon's Sitting.

Evening Post, Volume XLVI, Issue 69, 19 September 1893, Page 4

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES. Yesterday Afternoon's Sitting.

THE BAILWAT BILT,. Mr. SANDFORD resumed the deUate on the seoond reading of the Railway Bill. Sir Robert Stout's speech had sufficiently established the principle contended for. Retnrns presented to the Honse showed that there were now 21 more officers drawing salnries of .£2OO and over than in 1889, and .£3869 more was paid in salaries now than in that year. The service was overmanned, and there was enormous waste of time in the workshops owing to over-officialism. The small farmers and manufacturers were dissatisfied with the present system, as they were handicapped out of the marketb by heavy freights. Tho Hon. Mr. MITCHELSON denied that Sir Robert Stout's speech had established the necessity for change. Mr. Sandford had dealt with the question from a Christchuroh point of view, while "Sir Robert Stout was "up in the clouds." - Whila Sir Robert now contended that the State should control everything, when Premier he inserted in the Governor's Speeches references to the desirability of constituting Railway Boards of Management. No reasonable man would object to a Minister having a scat on the Board, provided he had no power of veto. It wonld be an advantage for a Minister to hold such a position without the right of voting. The Premier's speech had been a two hops' attack on the Commissioners, and while professing to be a democrat, he was really <tn autocrat, who wanted to seize all power. His speech was aimed to get the votes of working men. The Railway Board of New South Wales had been an absolute success, and had Victoria secured three strong-minded men such as the New Zealand Commissioners, they would have been more successful/ Messrs. Maxwell and Hannay 'were experts of great ability, and Mr. M'Kerrbw- was a man of very high character, possessed of mnch valuable information reg&rdiae the colony. Perpetual changes of Ministry would mean continual changes of railway polioy if the present Bill became law. Three of the present Ministry voted for the Bill of 1887. The commercial men and farmers of the country were quite satisfied with the management of fho" Commissioners, and were decidedly opposed to political control. It was untrue, as stated by the Premier, that Mr. M'Kerrow was forced to take the Chijf CommissionerBhip. When Sir Harry Atkinson offered the position to Mr. M'Kerrow he asked a few hours to consider, and next morning intimated his acceptance. Notwithstanding the assertion of the Premier and others, the rolling-stock and permanent way were in better condition now than for a long time past. The Commissioners had materially reduced freights and rates of travelling. The Premier was unfair to tho Commissioners throughout. During the last four years there had been an increase of .£IIB,OOO in the railway revenue over that of the previous four years, whilst the increased expenditure bad only been 424,000. ' This showed the careful management of the Commissioners, especially when they remembered the political lines that had been put upon them, notwith, standing which they returned a better percentage than when the Government managed the lines. Mr. Seddon had condemned the Commissioners for creating a departmental audit, but that was created by Sir Julius Vogel before the advent of the Commissioners. The whole of the' expenditure was audited by" the Audit Department. Notwithstanding Mr. Seddon's condemnation of the Commissioners for this independent audit, Ministers hod endeavoured to do away with the Audit Department altogether. Referring to the Bill, if it passed in its present form, the Commissioners would be merely creatures of the Government of the day. It wonld be better to return openly to political control, even if they retnrned to the system of favouritism then in vogue, when they had the workshops filled with agitators and political touts. The railways were 50 times better managed now than they were then. The Government should aacept a compromise, and relegate the question to tho next Parliament, letting the electors decide the question. In snch case, Mr. Rolleston would withdraw his motion. Otherwise, the Bill would be most fully' debated, and it would be a long time before tho Bill was got through the /louse Mr. EARNSHAW considered this was a question of prkciple— of bureaucratic absolutism, as against representative government. The Commißhioners were able men who had acted to the best of their ability, and an expert from England would probably not have done so well. He had gone through all the authorities in the Library, and he found they all condemned Bureaucratic absolutism. He prooeeded to quote from a number of constitutional authorities in eupporf of Mb view. Whatever course was adopted, they would have to appoint a Board to adjust the grievances of the railway men. He objected to the political power possessed by the Commissioners, who should not have the control of twenty millions of property and 15,000 votes. The best plan would be to repeal the Act and let the country deoide, but if this Bill did not pass the Premier would have power to replace tho present Commissioners with three others in January next. The Commissioners had been most lavish, and it was notorious that a large number of the bridges were in an unsafe condition. Referring to the recent conference of railway men held in Wellington, he said that everj member was a bog-ns delegate. The whole affair ' had been "rigged" by the Commissioners and their subsequent tools. He regretted Mr, Rolleston's amendment, and 'hoped the Government would repeal the Railways Act altogether. Mr. BUCKLAND said that though the Government majority might carry this Bill, the country would notapprove The Government oonld not appoint three other Commissioners, as had been asserted, if their Bill did not pass. The law would prevent them : but the present Commissioners could go on till their successors wore appointed If the Government attempted to appoint others tho Auditor-General would not paga their salaries The colony had reason to be grateful -o the Commissioners for their action during the Bfr£e- There should oertaSnly be some better mode of communication. between -the Commissioneraand the. House. In 1887 tho House voted JOKMO for railway purposes. This year, with 165 miles more of lines to manage, the vote was only .£729,000. Meanfame the revenue had been largely increased. Complaint was made as to difficulty of getting returns from the Commissioners Btit waa shown that these "returns were tostraoted in the Honse before members conld see them.' The Auokland railways were better managed, and in' hettw eondiWon, than they Had ever been before the Oommißsionera-vrere appointed, and the bridges were pi good order. EvwiNa SiTTma. ». M i^ F ? SH vßai?v Ba i? thatif «ie railways were handed to the Government there would be just as many complaints as they heard now The railways should be bronght more in touch with Parliament, but the present Bill failed to do this. It was devised to put the whole control into the hands of the Minister. The Ministry of 1887, which had had expenenoe of railway management, carried the measure to hand them over to the Commissioners by a large majority, and must have had good reason to do so. This question should be postponed for the consider, turn of the electors. The management of .-I Commissioners had not justified so the * ,?'?• Though they had done ■ jaslio jadicions things, their managen- donsa- inwholo waa good, and the m' ..ent on the railway servant* approved o* .^jority of the Commissioners had not r' . t thei? rule. The grievances. "J'hb Bill n- ofused to hear just jvould -j^jg the dp- that the Premier was already Ptf ,partm«nt. Mr. Seddon Defence, and - jmier. Minister for Works, were four r aow for Native Affairs. These the Prer' ' important departments, and fe e di " -ilership was enough for one man if S pp .si the work properly. They should * Mr. Seddon another portfolio by growing out this Bill, for if they put any more upon him they might send him to ap early grave, and that would be a terrible catastrophe to the colony. The rates now charged were on the whole reasonable. He would sooner see the Aot repealed and the Minister made absolute master than see this Bill passed, because it would be possible for the Minister to appoint a creature to the Board by whose vote and his own casting vote he would obtain control without responsibility. Members should rise superior to Party, and vote against such a sham. Mr. E. M. SfI,ITH supported the BUI, though he had nothing to say against the present Commissioners, who had always received him courteously. The railways, however, should be under the control of the

1 ■'presentatives of tho people. It was freoly stated in the lobbies Ilia: the Bill was to be H.newalled, but if so tho Government sup■inttors had sufficient backbone to see the nill through. Mr. DUTHIE said that for three years tho ■ 'iimuiissioners had been subject to tlje abuse •>f the Premier on every platform in New /(.aland. Mr. Seddon had sought to show that tho Commissioners were irresponsible, iud with this -view had kept book returnß md endeavoured to stir up irritation against them. It was not ttnc that the Commissioners were irresponsible, and they had, by ihe returns which the Premier had kept back, shown that they were quite ready to •rive full details of their estimates. _ Then there was the case of Oomaru to which the Premier referred, and which was simply that the Commissioners charged a specially low rate at Oamaru. The settlers at Oainaru benefited by having their produce carried cheaply to the markets of Christohurch and Dunedin, and it was strange to hear of people complaining of being charged lower rates. The Premier had also referred to the Wcstport case, but he had been compelled, by the faUity of tho charges made by him last year being shown, to greatly modify his statements in this case, i'he Commissioners had established a good eerviee, and tho rates for goods wore as low, mile for mile, n» in Fngland. The Premier claimed that the railway employes were opposed to the Commissioners, but ho had uever lost an opportunity of stirring up discontent amongst tho men. Tho wonder was that the Commissioners had succeeded in carrying on at all in the face of the Premier's taotios. If, however, the Bill passed, and tho Premier got control, half the present employes wonld be discharged to make room for the friends of the Government. To put the whole powec into the hands of the Minister of the day wonld not be a satisfactory solution Some improvement might be mode, biy, by tho appointment of a Committee, as suggested by Mr. Rolleston, to enquire into the best system of management. Mr. TAYLOR condemned the handing over of the Department to the Commissioners. Mr. GEORGE HUTCHISON said Mr. Rolleston's proposal would commend itself to the House were it practicable, but it was not so. The Act of 1887 was passed as an experiment, and no power was given for tho appointment of new Commissioners. There was no power to appoint anyone outside of the three gentlemen at present holding office, and if these gentlemen should decline to accept an extension for six or twe'vo months on the terms which the Minister would offer, in that oase there would be nothing for it but a return to the position before 1887. Therefore it was necessary that there should be legislation this session, or Parliament would have to be called together in January next. It was intolerable that three-quarters of a million of money should bo expended entirely without tho control of Parliament. Though Parliament had decided by the reduction of the Estimates that certain salaries should be reduced, they had not been reduced. The Commissioners had control of over one-third of the revenue of the colony an absolutely unconstitutional position. Should they at any time take a course which would reduce tho revenue, the Colonial Treasurer wonld ho seriously embarrassed. It was to the credit of the Commissioners that they had not made such a change, but the colony should not longer slumber on the brink of a volcano. There was much discontent amongst the railway employes. i r. NEWMAN teminded the Premier of the recklessness of bis charges against the Commissioners, pointing out the case of Victoria, whore a newspaper which made such charges was now in a very unhappy position, and if the Premier continued his charges he might some day find himself dofending a libel action bronght by a Civil Servant. The Premier had said he had no control over the Railway Estimates, yet he had accepted an amendment to rednee them. The Commissioners on the whole hod done their work well. Ab for this Bill, it would have been better to have given the Treasurer a seat on the Board instead of the Minister for Works. The Commissioners were appointed because of tho pressure put on Ministers day after day which made the appointment a a necessity. This Bill was a part of the " spoils for the victors " policy. Railway travelling was now much easier than bof ore the advent of the Commissioners, and Mr. Maxwell, against whom so muoh had been said, had made more useful reforms than any other man in the Service. They were always hearing the phrase that the railways should be managed on commercial principles, bnt when ho heard that he always fancied the advocate had some axe to grind. One reform should be a uniform tariff on all the lines. Many of the so-called railway feeders— the branch political lines — were really railway blunders. Instead of making such lines as the Groy-Hokitika, the Eketa-huna-Woodville line should have been completed. Mr. BRUCE protested against the Bill, and said be had never heard such a vulnerable Bpeech as that delivered by the Premier. As to the Bill, there had been no demand for its introduction from the producers or manufacturers of the country, who were on the whole satisfied with the present condition of things. He had it from the jrery best jndges in the matter that the people did not want political influence again introduced into our railways. To his thinking the Commissioners had aoted with credit to the colony, and particularly so in respect to the strike of 1890. The taunt that the members of the Opposition Vert acting as apologists for the Commissioner's was met by the fact that there was no need to apolo-i gise for, though there was to defend, them. Mr. Hutchison's speech was inconsistent, as in 0110 breath he said the question ahonld be settled this session, whilst m another breath he advocated referring tho. matter to the electors of the cojpny. In conclusion, the speaker asked what qualification did Mr. Seddon possess'to entitle him to bo absolute diotator on the Railway Board, which wonld be h\s position if this Bill were to become 1 law. ' Mr. HOGG hoped the Bill would pass, and that the Government would go still further and place the railways entirely under the control of the representatives of the people, and of a responsible Minister. He recited a number of. grievances against tho Commissioners, and felt snre that, notwithstanding the pronouncements, of the Chambers of Commerce, if public meetings were held public feeling would be found against them. Mr. WRIGHT said ha had some grievances against the Commissioners, but this Bill offered no prospect of redress. The Commissioners hod shown admirable results so far. and fully justified their management. Mr. BUICK 6aid he could cot vote for tho present Bill as long as* it contained the absurd power of veto. It wonld be absurd to have highly-paid Commissioners, and give another man the power to veto their work. The Commissioners hod made some errors of judgment, but, in his district, when thoy wore pointed ont, they had repaired them, and they had made great concessions to the Bettlers of his distriobpowfrroiaifeiiding.that it was one of the worsfcjpayingiaji the co ony, due solely to hardodfimefe-jijThftJEon missioners had done wjAl. Itctfiiß said thst'l there were many persengiMtlla/KeHSy wkoZ had grievances, butiblio 'pT*entj,BiH would not relieve them, atf&Swbuldieinrijly^ removeto the political arena' mattorfc.Khiili sh|ould not come on to the 'floor '«fi>th«l'H3use. Though he believed,- after, what had been said, that some legislation was necessary, yet so drastic a Bill as this was not necessary, and he wonld vote for it on the second reading, with a view to amending it in com* mittee. (Mr. Saunders— " Hear, Hear."). ' Mr. BUCHANAN characterised the Premier's attitude towards the Commissioner? aud his attacks on them in and out Qfc season, as most nnmanly. The Preniier'a,Tjerseoution of the Commissioners had. sot been on account of their administratioi},"'\ihioh.was excellent, but for purely political purposes. It reflected very great credit on the Commissioners that they had, while reducing the rates all round, greatly increase^ the net percentage from the railways. A great deal was said as to the Commissioners sending officers to America. Ab one who had travelled a great , deal of late years in America, where, thp railway system was at a stage of advancement which we conld not expeot to achieve here for some time, he. would say that to setd oflicers to study that system was one ,oE the best things the Commissioners had done. He would not objeot to a Minister sitting on the Board of Commissioners, but not on the terms Bet out in the Bill Mr. SAUNDERS said that all the Premier lad said against the Commissioners had been answered over and over again He would approve a Bill amending the Aot of 1887 m the direction of giving Parliament power to direct the main principles on which Jieir administration should proceed, butthei Jill proposed was, utterly misokevions, on* le would oppose it at every stage. The Commissioners had not disregarded' any proper representation oi Parliament. Tfce 'representations they hod disregarded, md been those 0$ individual member* Ihe brought, against tb c Commissioners were unjustifiable. Batiw ir ihan thfe Bill, they should retnrn at once • to responsible Ministerial control, J£ this B ill was carried after, the speeoh, ofrtlie Premier, iere. would.be no other alternative but .for tne present Commissioners to resign, and he ,<Ud not knowwh^re they would find ennaUv good men. But for the aotion of th,«Commusvwem at the time of the strike, the consnqueuees to the oolony would h&ve been serlona. The debate was adjourned till 2.30 d m. r5} ay V? n the motion of Mr. DtLNCAN. £he House rose at 2 a.m.