PROPOSED LOCAL SELFGOVERNMENT. IMPORTANT PUBLIC MEETING- AT PAPAKURA.

Daily Southern Cross, Volume XXIV, Issue 3404, 13 June 1868, Page 4

PROPOSED LOCAL SELFGOVERNMENT. IMPORTANT PUBLIC MEETING- AT PAPAKURA.

PtrasrxANT to advertisement, a publio meeting of the electors of the Franklin and Ragan districts was held at 2 p.m. yesterday, at the Papakura Hotel. The representatives of both districts, and candidates in the forthcoming, election for Franklin, had been iuvited, to, attend, and in accordance with that invitation Messrs. James Farmer and W, BuckUnd were present. The meeting, however, was not numerously attended, there beiug only some 20 person's present, some of whom had come out from Auckland. Mr. W. flay was called to the chair. The Chairman, in opening the meeting, said no doubt they were all aware of its object. The faot waß, they had been politically asleep for a number of 'years ; and now, acting on the principle of " better lale than never," a few of the electors of the district had thought it advisable to call a public m-etmg, in order to elicit an expression of opinion as to the present appearance and prospects of the General Government, as also to hear the views of their representatives, and of, -those gentlemen who aspired to fill the vacancy that had occurred in the eleotoral diatriot of Franklin, as wall as to allow those gentlemen an opportunity of ascertaining the opinions and wishes of their constituents. This was a large district, and it would be advisable that suoh a meeting should be held in order to decide upon what measures would best forward their own interests, and those of the colony at large. Some pe-plo appeared to be in favour of totally abolishing piovincial institutions. He himself must admit that provincial government had been useful in its day and generation ; but now the time bad' come for an important change in some way or other. He believed that their representativesjrad constituents here to-day would be able to enlignten them upon what alterations would be most likely to further their interests, and the prosperity of the colony at large. He had no fear for the country districts. It would be easy to ' govern the country districts if they' gave them the power of local self-government. These districts were not so large but that they might be easily managed by boards composed of 'gentlemen resident in them. There were plenty of individuals he thought, in the country districts,* of intelligence, 'that could easily give a few days in eaoh month in looking after^ the government of the districts in which they reside, (dear, hear.) After a few further remarks, the speaker called Upon Mr, Buckland to explain his view* upon the matters proposed to be brought before the meeting.' „ , ' { M.r; Bpuxpuin) said he felt extremely honoured by the invitation of the last speaker ; but he understood.tiiat this meeting h*d bVen called td enable the representatives of the district to explain their- views, and the course they had adopted in the last session. He thought it would be proper in the first instance co call upon Mr. Farmer to tell the electors what he did last session, and what he was doing now. ' The Chairman then invited Mr. Farmer to explain his views with respect to the political bearing of the measures oarried in the last session of the General Assembly, and to indicate what course it would be advisable to adopt in the next session. ' Mr. H. S. Andrews said he would objeot to Mr. Farmer being called upon at this stage. They well knew what Mr. Farmer did, and, as Mr. Buckland was 'now in the field, he ought to oome forward and give an explanation of his policy so as to guide them in coming to a conclusion as to' whether or not they would' return him. ' r > Mr. Creiohton said as an elector of Franklin he desired to remark that tbis meeting was held in the Raglan district, and it would be an act of discourtesy to call upon Mr. Buckland, who was not an elector of that district, ta be the first to address that meeting. He thought Mr. Farmer should be called upon to do so. Mr. W. Kbbr said there was no discourtesy whatever intended.' He thought that there was really no necessity for a speech from Mr. Farmer in explanation of his policy last session. Mr. Ellis ttusted that the meeting would confine itself *s far as possible to subjects relating to the future, rather thau to the past. ; Mr. Fakmer said it would be unnecessary for him to speak at length as to the polioy he had adopted last session, as they were already aware of what he had done. As regards the Local Government Bill he was one of the three members nho had voted for it. He had voted for the principle of the bill, but bit impression was that the Government was now preparing a more simple bill, and one better calculated to meet the requirements of the country. He should resist, to the utmost of his power, the division of the provinces into sections spch as now proposed. He did not think that such a thing would pass the House. With regard to the Gladstone and Timaru bill, he believed it was the thin end of the wedge, to break up the strong provincial feeling that existed in Canterbury. The people of the districts of Tiinaru, Gladstone, and Westland, felt themselves aggrieved. He would like to see some such' measure as this passed, and thought it was required. He did not profess sufficient experience to enable him to say what would be the b-st form of government to substitute for provincial government. He said many plans might be proposed. It was a fact that provincial institutions had broken down through their own extravagance, and each Superintendent seemed animated by a desire to waste more than hit predecessor, A bill with a few less clauses than the Municipal Corporations Bill would be more easily understood. He thought our Auckland members were much to blame for voting againßt the Endowments, BilL He knew himself that the Provincial Treasurer rejoiced that the bill had been rejected, and he (Mr. Farmer) did ' not think we should get such good terms again. (Hear, hear.) The Gene* ral Government would then have been obliged to reduce expenditure to comply with the terms of that bill. Being confined to the Act they would have been oompelled to confer the benefits contemplated thereby. Another matter in which he had taken a good deal of interest was the Protection of Certain Animals Bill. On leaving this country for home a few years ago he was uuder the impression that the settlers desired to increase the number of pheasants in the oountry. He thought they would willingly have subscribed towards the objects of' acclimatisation, and he had never beard until he came back from Wellington last year that these birds destroyed the crops as they do. He had voted for that bill more as a subscription than anything else. It would be scarcely fair to call tbe license fee of £2 10s. a year, paid by persons who desired to shoot, a game-tax. He said there was no political principle involved in the bill, and therefore it would be advisable in certain districts to relax those portions of the bill that were felt to be oppressive or inapplicable. As to the first of these resolutions which he saw published in yesterday's papers, it embodied a polioy for which he had already voted in principle. As to the third, he would certainly oppose any additional taxation. However, he would be inclined to vote for the imposition of an income-tax provided the Customs were reduced in a proportionate degree. He would only do bo, however, upon the condition that the Customs tariff should be reduced. In many oases the tariff was so high that it encouraged smuggling. He would certainly object altogether to an incometax unless other taxation was at the same time reduced. He would be very glad to answer any questions, but, as he had stated at the opening of the meeting, he was quite unprepared to make a speech. (Dr. Raynor : "You'll improve by practice.") Mr. Farmer then proceeded to comment on several items contained in the Appropriation Act of last session. The postal department cost £148,579 9*., of which £59,456 was for sea postage. This, however, included the subsidies for the Panama mail. He believed a considerable reduction might be made in that. Law and justice cost the colony £69,148 19s. 4d., of which £32,391 was paid for Resident Magistrates. There was no doubt also that in this case a considerable reduction might be effected ; and there was ample room for retrenchment in the salaries of Resident Magistrates, whose I dut> might, in many cases, be fulfilled by Justices. It was too much the fashion of many members to make demands upon the Government for Resident Magistrates in their districts. He was perfectly sure that the Government would be very glad to reduce the number of Resident Magistrates. ' The Customs | department oost £44,471 7s. 6d.; but he did not j think this too large a sum, considering the large amount of wotk that wan accomplished.' The native department oost £23,544 ss. 10d., but the principal part of it was spent upon the salaries of European officers. Mr. Akdbbws: Abolish the lot, sir; go in for abolishing the lot. We had no business to have one of them. We don't want them. , They are an exorescence. Mr. Fabmbr said he believed a considerable saving could be effeoted on all these items. He remembered on one occasion Mr. Stafford had said he would be very glad if the Government could obtain the sup* ' pott of "the provinoes in reduoing the annual ooat

of governing the country to £50,000. His impression was that the Government would bo very (glad t* do so. Mr. Andrews : But they don't do it. Mr. Farbibr : Simply lecause the members of every district are perpetually moving lor .Resident Magistrates and other officials. Mr. -Andrews: Because they have bo many relations. Mr. Farmer said that it was his impression, and that was the reason of there being so great an increase of officialism. With regard to the Panama service, that was a contract the Government could not get out of, and it did not cost so much as would appear at first sight. The Home Government remitted all that was paid in England on account of postage, and, as most of our letters oime by way of Panama, we paid so much less than that. He thought that made very , little difference in the former rate of payment, and it did not matter much whether they had the Panama mail or not. He would be Tory glad to answer any questions that the electors might wish to put to him. • Mr. Btjokland understood that Mr. Eerr intended to put some questions relative to the blockvoting of our members last session. Mr. Kerb : That will come by-and-hy. Mr. Buckland : The best way will be to get rid of this matter before proceeding to another. The Ch a IBM an : I have noeuch matter before me. Mr. McDonald was about to make some observations with reference to the so-called game laws, when Mr. Creighton rose to order. He thought the informal business should be gone through before the formal was commenced. Mr. Buckland would hare been glad if the meeting had been better attended. .He had been asked on a former occasion to become a candidate for the district of Raglan, and on that occasion had refused to offer, himself for election. He had been told that the fact of his having refused would militate against the chance of his being elected now, but he did not think it would. (No, no.) He believed that, an important change had occurred in the condition and prospects, of the colony, and his opinions had materially changed since the occasion to wbioh he referred. The reason that he refused on that occasion' to allow himself to be put in nomination war, that he did not concur with bis constituents in the matter of Separation. His opinion simply was then that Separation was a mistake from the commencement, and he had been adverse to placing himself in aucti a position as that he must either stultify his own views, or those of his constituents. He believed the opinions of 1 the constituency were divided on the matter of Separation. (Mr. Andrews: "No, no.") He believed' they were, and he came forward on all occasions to vote against Separation. He had adopted these opinions after mature deliberation. They were not crude opinion! arrived at in a hasty manner. It was only when he found the people of Auokland vilified, and their interests persistently ignored by the South, that he said he would go in for' " cutting the painter." Be went down to the South prepared to advocate those views ; but as soon as the session was over, as 'soon as reason assumed its sway, be thought it would be an act of suicide on the part of the people of this colony to attempt to divide the colony. Let them be one great glorious country. He now came before them with a distinct avowal that he would be prepared, on all occasions, to vote against Separation. (Mr. Andrews; " Then you won't get in.") He had &tated,in his 1 short addras published in the newspapers, that one of ' his principal objects would be to obtain one law for the Europeans and natives. The nature of bis oalling placed him in as good position to give an opinion as to the native race as any man in the colony, and he would distinctly say that the feeling of alienation that the natives entertained against us was owing to the injustice of our laws with regard to them. Had we treated the natives with ordinary justice, the two races would not attbe present moment be placed in antagonism to each other. It was the feeling entertained by the natives that they were a down-trodden and oppressed race that caused them to assume tbeir present attitude, and which had cost us so much money. If we wished to prosper and to succeed with the natives we must create a feeling of confidence — we must convince them that we were animated by a desire to serve them as well as ourselves. He now came to the question of local sel' -government. Bis own impression was that very few of them knew anything about it. From the remarks which had been made he did not think its principal advocate understood it. Be could not know how more good could be done to the country than by diffusing information regarding self-govern-ment. If this country was to be great and glorious there must be a different sjstem from the present. It reminded him of a report read some time ago at a meeting of railway proprietors. An engineer sent in a plan of a building which was no sooner put up than it fell down again. A person was sent down from London to examine it, and on taking the bricks between his fingers be found that they crumb'ed away. No wonder, indeed, that the building fell in. Could they ever expect to ree this country great and glorious when at an important meeting like this such large districts as those of Franklin and Raglan were represented by so few people T He was very glad to see a gentleman like Mr. Gillies present, who would be able to explain to them whether local self-government was beneficial ; but if any man wished to see the country progress he must take an interest in the government of the country, and then we should have a basis deep and broad enough to build our prosperity upon. He would endeavour to define the difference between local self-government and centralism. Local government was the principle upon which tbe people took the government upon their own shoulders, and centralism was employing other men to do it for them. Asa rule, the less the Government bad to do, the better it would be for the people. The true prinoiple of looal self-government was this, that the people would come to know that they had rights to demand and duties to perform. When they had denuded the Government of all possible power and taken it upon themselves, New Zealand would become one great and glorious oountry. Be would not call such a miserable abortion as that for which Mr. Farmer had voted last session an Act worth the name of a Local S elf- Govern no en t Bill. It was in truth centralising, and if he bad been in the Assembly when it was brought forward he would have opposed it tooth and Bail ; and he called those who had introduced it the greatest .enemies of local so-called self-government. It was a pity to hear men, occupying such positions as the promoters of , tbii bill, taking credit to themselves for having voted for it. The principle of that bill was only to take money out of one pocket and put it into another. If they wanted to carry out internal improvements, they must be inclined to put their hands in their pockets and their shoulders to the wheel. If they were to wait on this government and that government for pecuniary aid, they would be unfitted, to undertake the duties of carrying out the principle of local self-government. He considered the proposition advocated by Mr. Garleton, to divide this colony into a number of counties, would merely inorease that evil. Where was there ,a chance of public feeling being brought to bear upon these County Councils ? There was no such thing as publiu feeling, and public funds would be wasted. 'That would increase the burden already borne. It was absolutely alarming to look over the proceedings of the last session, and see how the public money was squandered. With regard to the game laws it would be bis object to try and bring about a repeal. It was a portion' of that class legislation that was so obnoxious to every right-thinking man. He would not canvass for a single vote. If the electors desired to return him, they would come forward and vote for him without being requested. — The speaker went on to refer td the 'unworkable' character of the laws of the General Assembly in New Zealand ; and he said there was no stronger proof of the barbarous state to which our, legislator* had descended than the accumulation of laws. In a few years hence the business of our legislators would be to repeal the laws that their predecessors bad for the last; five or six years been engaged in framing ; and it would be a good thing if five out of six laws were abolished. He was reminded that Mr. Kerr had asked'him to support teetotalism ; and, in answer to that, he might say that, though he did not support the extreme views of its advocates, he thought it would be beneficial to itoduoe the duty on wine, so. as to cheapen it, and thus to some extent to supersede tbe use of spirituous liquors, At the same time he was opposed to any coeroive measures. ' With regard to the question of imposing. a property and income tax his own opinion was that the colony would have great difficulty in satisfying the public creditor, and he believed it would be necessary to impose further taxation. ' Mr. McDonald would ask Mr. Farmer whether the Game Laws Bill was not drafted by Mr. Gillies, aud whether Mr. Farmer had not himself taken oharge of that bill. Mr. Farmer replied that Mr. Murison had forwarded a draft of the bill. Mr. McDonald : Am I then to understand, that you bad no hand in introduoing this bill 1 Mr, Future : Only as a member of the Select Committee. ' Mr. McDonald : Was this obnoxious olauie in fy wfcen itj was wnt tq the committee J • ■;'..;

Mr. Farmer : The draft of the bill allowed proprietors and their sons to shoot upon their own laud. I wished to allow occupiers to shoot. I wished to reduce the duty to one-half, or that the proptietors and their sons should have a right to shoot at one half the duby. Mr. McDonald : Can you inform me who took oha-ge of that bill ? Mr. Farmer : I think Mr. Murison had charge of it. ' * Mr. McDonald said his object had been to exonerate Mr» Gillies from the charge of having inserted that obnoxious clause in the bill. Mr, Farmer paid : .Had the bill been passed as it oame down, proprietors and their sons would have been allowed to shoot on their lands without any license fee. Mr. H. Thokpe said that the Government had commenced a system of baying over any man they wished to silence. The speaker referred to the Comptroller of Public Bevenue. Mr. Farmer said, as far as Mr. FitzGerald wan concerned, he was one of the best officers in the country. (Loud cries of "No, no.") Mr. A. McDonald moved: — "That this meeting consider! it- desirable that a ohange of system in the government of the province be advocated by our representatives at the next session of the General Assembly, and recommends the forming of the colony into counties of convenient size, with County Councils to manage all local matters ; «uch Councils to be elective." Mr. McDonald said: Mr. Chairman and followelectore, you have been oalled together this day that you might exercise your just and legitimate , rights as electors, and that you, by your action this dky, may show that you fully understand and appreciate the privileges which our representative institutions confer upon ui, and one of these privileges is, Ithat, it is the voice of the people which guides the legislature of the nation or colony to, which we. may' belong, in any part of .our gracious Queen'* dominions. I have , a resolution to put to the meeting, and feel surettjat you will support it ; I williead.it^ Now let ip'e say that this resolution carries truth on the face of it ; and ,1 maintain, ■ if the author of 'bur 'provincial institutions bad thought for one moment that it was ,at all likely that his pet scheme would have been so grossly abu*ed , and mismanaged, that' he would have thrown, provincialism to the winds. (Hear, hear.) Fellow electors, provineialum never was intended as a' permanently stem of government; the aim that its founder h,ad in view was, that it should nurse and foster out-lying districts during their infancy. Now it reinaips for you to say this day if this has been done. Will your answer not be, we have been robbed ? Yes. Where have the proceeds, from the sale of the public estate in each district, gone to ? To what pWrpose w»s it applied ? W»s a fair ptr-centage of the same handed over to each 'district .for local .improvements ? Have w,e had .justice done us by providing each district with the right of roadways , through the same, so as to be to the advantage of the people t Have the boundaries of the Highway Districts been, well defined ! Have we had a fair share of protection from the police, .according to the amount which we have to contribute towards their support ? And last, though not least, has due care been taken to provide for the education of the rising generation ? The answer must be to all these questions, No, no. Our public estate hai been sold, and the proceeds have been applied to the support of an almost useless official staff, and the educational grant of £3,000 has been withdrawn and applied to the same purpose ; but, nevertheless, every one of us has still to contribute as much towards the provincial revenue as ever, and in lieu of this grant they have bestowed upon us the blessing of a sham Permissive Act. (Hear, hear.) I say that provincialism has run us into the slough of despond, and in the shape of taxation they have laid the task upon us of making our tale of bricks, without supplying us with the straw. Such conduct in any Government is unpardonable. Fellow electors, we have too much government, and T say that the sooner we get rid of that syßtem which gives such opportunities to our public men to work out the ruin of this fair province, I say the sooner we get rid of it the better. Some will say, what can we have which is likely to dousthat justice ? To this question I answer, let us request our representatives that they will ask the General Assembly during its forthcoming session, to pass a bill by which our province 1 will be formed into counties ; that each county will have its local council ; that such council be elected by the people, and that they retire in alphabetical order ; that no official salary be attached to the raid council, save that of secretary and collector ; that the said council have full control over all their local revenue, and waste lands within the bounds of their county ; that this council have a fair per-centage of the proceeds from the sale of these waste lands handed over to them for educational and hospital and other local purposes that may be required in the said counties, and to receive portions of said lands or endowments to the same end ; that these Baid counoils have power to settle the questions of right of roads in the said counties ; that they have the management of their local police, having for their guidance in all theEe matters the legislation of the General Assembly. Now, I think that a bill embracing these points would suit the countiy districts ; let our townspeople think for themselves. Under this plan our progress would be secured. Mr. W. Buckland says that he goes in for local self-government in the fullest aense of the word. lam glad of this. Now he has an opportunity given him to explain what he' means by thic, and I hope that all members for Raglan and Franklin, and also candidates, will explain themselves to the satisfaction of this meeting. Mr. Eobert Graham and Mr. fiowe said, at the public meeting which was held at the Thames, that none of them knew what local self-government meant ; but, as far as 1 could judge from the report of that meeting, these hon. gentlemen failed to make manifest their knowledge of this matter j ancl I say that it was a very bold assertion to make. But let us show by our action this day that we know well what it means, and that we are resolved never to yield until we have obtained the same. (Cheers.) There are a few who cry out, "Oh, you want to hand us over, bound hand and foot, to a Wellington Government." This is only a party cry from those who wish to stick to office— even if it should be at the expense of our well-being. My friend, Mr; Creighton, told us not long |ago [that provincialism could not hold out much longer ; his figures by which he, proved this are still to be seen. Let us be true to ourselves, and pay no heed to their unmeaning cry. The General Government at present have their agent in Auckland to represent them ; and if this province is formed as I have suggested, they will have no more power over us than what they have now. But I will tell you what difference there will be in our position then. The three«eightbs, which the General Government at present hand over to the provincial chest, and wbioh go towards the support of officialism, will have aportion of this amount allotted to wards paying off our share of the present liabilities of this pro* vince, and the balance divided amongst us, both town and country, for local purposes. Let our^motto be — Progress, local self-government, and down -with officialism. (Cheers.) Mr. Hampton Thorpe seconded the motion. Among other things he alluded to the appointment of inapectors and Bub-inipectors of volunteers and militia. He thought one man might do both duties. Mr. H. F. Andrews proposed as an amendment:— " That, for the better government >6f the Northern Tsland, it is desirable that the Northern Island be Separated from the Middle Island, with one central Government for the Northern Island. That the Northern Island be divided into counties, and such counties be subdivided into parishes. That' all Provincial Governments in the Northern Island be abolished. That County Councils be appointed for the counties, and local boards for the parishes, for the farthering of the carrying out of local representative government." The speaker at some length advocated Separation. Mr. Ellis said he had not had time to consult the details of the amendment, but he was prepared to second it pro form&. Certainly much that was edifying and instructive might be gathered from the opinions that-had been expressed to-day with regard to the great question which now filled the public mind. He said it seemed to him that the practical working of local self-government, ; so far' as he had yet been able to learn, would not be difficult; and the only question was, how this local self-government Sfras to be obtained. The country was already occupied by an extensive. General Government, and eight or nine smaller ones, and the question was, how was this system of local self-government to be edged in ? The fact was, that all these governments were extravagant in their expenditure and incompetent in their administration, and hejsaid the great Government was like Pharaoh's lean kine , eating up the fat kine. They were all aware that the General Government was likely to be short Jhis year something like £100,000 if Mr, ,Fitzherbert did not succeed in negotiating the loan of "i 360,000. How ,was it possible under these circumstances that the General Government could have paid the shires £2 for every £1 raised ly them through local taxation? The speaker went^on to ■how fa tfce.CQuriie.ol, a rery able and

speech that the General Government at yire ent absorbed nearly four-fifthi of the revenue, simply in maintaining itself, while the provinces, which absorbed the other part, were unable to carry on their establishments. He showed that the whole system of government in New Zealand had been most uo satisfactory, and thai; the petty jealousies and local rivalries fostered by provincialism retarde'd the. progress of the country. * Mr. Gillies said he had attended the meeting as an r elector of Raglan, in answer to an invitation which had been issued. He had certainly hoped to have met more of the electors together, and he mast say that the present small attendance made him feel that there was. a great want of activity and interest shown in the matter on the part of the electors of the districts of Raglan and Franklin ; and they might rest assured that they would do no great good in this matter — that renl reform would be hopeless— so long as the electors remained so apathetic, (Bear, hear.) For his own part, he had been induced to come here that morning by reading the resolutions which had been published in the paper. It seemed to him that those resolutions contemplated great organic changes — to be part of that organised raid against the Provincial Government which seemed just then to be becoming so prevalent throughout the country. It appeared to be more a raid against provincial institutions than against provincial abuses. When he first heard Mr. Buckland begin to speak he was afraid he was going to run into this extreme, and it seemed to him that that the electors were being misled by persons who bad got up a ory in farour of centralism. They were using the name of self-government, whereas they did not mean self-government, but only a government self -taxed to carry on the government of another power. Be himself had long since been convinced of the abuses »nd evils that had attended the administration of Provincial Governments, and had long ago given them up. At the game time, not having anything better, they should not rush •into the opposite extreme, and abuse provincial institution?, forgetting their uses. He could bring an! unimpeachable witness of the usefulness of provincial institutions. He would read an extract to them from a speech, made in the General Assembly last session by a member who was now one, of the most determined opponents of provincial institutions —Mr. 1 Carleton. (1 be upeaker then read the extract referred to.) Mr. Carleton had the admitted that, bap as provincial institutions were, if they were merged!, into the General Government things would be still worse. It might be true that provincial institutions had outgrown their original intention. The principle ;of , provincial institutions was neither more or less than local self -government for if it were not so the General Government could hive absorbed all the legislation,' as d the) Pro^ncial Councils would have been mere puppets — mere administrators of the law, as some would, have these County Councils .to., be. , By the Constitution Act certain powers were reserved ,tq the local bodies— to t^e Provincial Councils. At the time of; passing the Constitution Act, the out-districts were fewand far between. They were, however, the nuclei of the provinces. There were only six provinces then in New Zealand. The Constitution Act gave the right of sejf-government to those provinces. In a province like this where there were bo many centres of population, and where centres .of population were constantly rising up,, it. might be especially the case, but still the principle was the same. They might, have ■ outgrown the original intention for which Provincial Councils were formed, but do not let them now abuse those institutions. This was not the first time this local self -government was, talked about in New Zealand ; they v\ ould remember the fatal end of it on a previous occasion — on the occasion of the passing of the New Provinces Act. It was now sought, by using the name of local self-government, to give up wh»t was really local self-government, and to only reserve the right to tax themselves and to spend the taxes so raised, Tbe idea that Mr. Buckland bad given them of local self-government was the true one, and he himself most heartily concurred with him in tbe principles which he had advocated. The settlers of Raglan should be thankful to him for the manner in which he had explained his views, which were true and accurate views. Although he (Mr. Gillie*) disagreed with him as to bow those views should be carried in carried our, and though he disagreed with him on the question of Separation, he should be very sorry if the electors of Franklin should lose the services of such a man. The Separation question was not a new one to him (Mr. Gillies) ; he was at the birth of it at the South. It had now borne its fruits in Canterbury, and Canterbury still adhered to its principles of Separation to this day. A great mistake had been made by Auckland in not adhering to the Separation question when the prosjbects of tbe province were greater than they are now. Tt was the best time to get out of a partnership when things were at their worst, and the best time to stick to it 'was when things were at their best. They might be sure that they now would not now get any terms as favourable as they would then have been able to obtain ; the South would now demand terms more favourable to itself. He held in his hand an amendment, which he would put to the meeting ; and it was one which perhaps his friend Mr. Andrews would accede to. His reason for proposing this amendment was, that,' though all seemed to be agreed that some vital change was necessary, none appeared to be in a position to show how that improvement was to be effected. Mr. Buckland in his speech did not point out anything that should be done to improve the state of things, nor had Mr. Andrews. Separation would be found to be more difficult than was anticipated when they came to view it iu all its bearing, and attempt an 'adjustment of their differences with the South. ,(He»r, hear,) If a good scheme was to be devised for exchanging the present mode of government for pome thing better, it was necessary that the best minds should come into collision, and then it would be necessary that whatever views might be adopted should be laid before the electors before «teps were .taken to make them law,— (cheers)— especially as it was a matter which involved a total change in the Constitution of the country. The speaker then moved the following resolution ' :— "That, in the opinion of this meeting, our representatives should oppose any fundamental change in the Constitution of tbe colony until the electors of the colony have bad an opportunity of pronouncing on the change proposed." , Whatever views might be adopted by the members ought to be brought in the first instance before their constituents. Let them consider them and discuss them, and then let the decision be come to. Let each member communicate his views, to his constituents, — let him tell them what' schemes he in* tended to support, and then the electors .would have a voice in the matter, and would have an opportunity of laying their own. opinions down to their representative. No organic change should be made in the Constitution of the country till the electors had had this opportunity. With regard to the Protection of. Certain Animals Act, it was simply a Game Act, and not what it was called. Mr. Gillies then went on to vindicate the Acclimatisation Society from having had any influence in the passing of the obnoxious clauses in the Act. With regard to what Mr. Buckland had said about cumbrous legislation, he might tell that gentleman that such Acts as were passed last session were the greatest horror to his profession that could be imagined. No man could master any one of these Acts, or could carry any of their clauses in his bead. The Municipal Act was said to be framed to meet tbe requirements of town, but the to<rn that could adopt that Act would be something like insane. In a new country like this, where legislation should be tentative, he could not understand what could have been in the minds of members when they passed that Act. The best legislation in his opinion that the colony had ever had was that of the old Provincial Councils. They had passed many Acts which had stood the test of twenty years ; and if provincial institutions had failed in thisjprovince more than in any other province through defective Acts and defective ' drafting, still the majority of the Acts .passed by our Provincial Council were short, concise, comprehensible, applicable, and easily, understood ; while, on tbe other hand, tbe Acts of the General Assembly were cumbrous and unworkable. The A cts of the Council were directed to remedy and provide for existing wants ; but those of the Geneial Assembly were simply compilation! of other Acts, in fact, an amalgamation of English and colonial > Acts. There, for instance^, was th> Forgery Act, the Coinage Act, and an Aot to Regulate the Sale ' "of Naval Store*. He would like to; know what was , the necessity pf such, Acts in the present state of the colony. There wasnonecesaity for them whatever; and ' our legislators should have confined themselves.to ' tbe simple necessities of the country. Everyone must feel, that in changing a form of government — indeed there was not a- man present that day but ; who felt that, however easy it was 1 to remove One, form of government, it was quite ' ahotberthing to ' provide something in its atead. He himself had ,' thought a good deal over the matter, but did ' not see his way clear to explain { the, 'mode in which these - changes were to be carried out. ( (Cries of " Question.") The question was, whatj action was to be taken by the member* in regard < to the course they should adopt at the next session, j He though whatever propoial ibould be made.thatj

! should have the effect of bringing about any ; orgaoio change in the governments of the I country should be discussed by the electors before being carried into effect ; and the view* of memt ers should be laid before them, so as to see whether they intended to support or oppose such 1 principles as might be brought forward. He (Mr. Gillies) was in favour of Separation, but was not so dear upon it as that he could not be enlightened by disoussion with members from different parts of the colony. ! Mr. Creighton rose to seoond the amendment pro* 1 posed by his friend Mr. Gillies. It waa only reasonable | tbat the electors should have any important changes laid before them, so that their views might be well tested with regard to them. As he understood the ' resolution proposed by his friend Mr. McDonald, it simply meant that these gentlemen desired a funda- < mental change in the Constitution of the colony, and wanted what was called looal self-government, After they had milked the provincial eow dry, they wished now to apply a new machine to the teats — a sort oi American milking machine. They wanted to have the control of their own funds, and at the same time be subsidised by the General Government. These gentlemen now wished to abolish provincial institutions because the Government was not in a position to supplement their rates, and so they wished to go to the General Government to raise a sum to supple* ment their own funds. That was not looal selfgovernment ; it was a.kind of arrangement whioh had been too much carried out already from one end of the colony to the other, and whioh hud brought it to the verge of bankruptcy. He believed that the county agitation which was going on was* ' ■ great mistake, and would do a great deal of in jury. (No Ino 1) He was not standing there, to be an extreme advocate of provincial institutions or rather the administration of them. He knew there had been a great deal , of mismanagement and misapplication of funds, but be believed the Provincial Government of Auckland would contrast favourably with what had been accomplished by the General Government. The Provincial Government had made the Great South Road without local taxes., If they , got their local self •government they would have to pay their share of the cost of that road. He (the. speaker) did sot think tbat the gentlemen of that, district had any intention of repudiating their just, V responsibilities. Mr. Creighton Jwe'nt on at some < length to argue that the out-districts wo\ild have ' to bear their share of the interest and sinking fund , of 'the loan, in proportion to the amount expended in improving the several districts. Be urged them to wait until the deliberations of the next Assembly . . bad been concluded before deciding on what steps * should be taken towards changing the present form of government. If they decided ' tipon the county system, they would still band themselves over to the General Government, who would dictate what 1 their estimates should be, and would send down m -* delegate for that purpose as- was done in the case^ ■* ofiWestport. That 'was what the County Councils >»* meant, He believed they had got everything tbe'y^ required as f«r as the County Councils went. (Mr; BucklandJ: "No! no 1") If the law sat present'ia operation were not adapted to the wants of tbe> country, they had been passed by their own represen- • tatives, and they had them to blame for it. With ■> regard to what Mr. McDonald had said about the T ' diversion of roads, tbat gentleman must know tbat ' Provincial Governments had not the pbwer to divert * ' roads. His Honor the Superintendent had explained this to Mr.' McDonald when he was a member 1 of the > < deputation which had waited upon his Honor, and •> had laid the matter before him. It was really ttie Governor in Council who refused to give the High* way Board the power to divert the roads. The neces* - ■ saTy tulea had been adopted by the Provincial ■ Council in order to enable them to bring the Compulsory Land-taking Act into operation in, this pro* vince. These rules had been forwarded to Wellington for the Governor's assent; they had . remained there eight months, and nothing had been heard oE it since. He believed '• ■ neither the Provincial Council nor ... the General Government oould be continued another ' ■ twelvemonth on the present footing. (Cheers.) • , Mr. Bucklans spoke in favour of Mr. Gillies 7*7 * amendment. , Mr. McD6naxd was about to reply, when Mr, W, Kber moved that the meeting be adjourned, - in order to enable a larger number of electors to be [•resent. He thought that a matter of snoh importance should be 'considered by a full meeting. Dr, Raynob thought it was unfair to ask people :• to come such a 'distance from Aucklaud to jdisouss this question without coming to some definite con* ■ ■ elusion. Mr. W. Kekk thought it would be better to ad- ■ journ the meeting. There was no wish on the part ' of the committee to be charged with deciding this ' matter at a hole-and-corner meeting. > ' Mr. MoDonaud remarked that it was obviously ' the intention of 'Mr. Gillies's amendment to burke ' the whole proceedings of the meeting. Mr. GILLHS said, if the object of the meeting w»f - to pass the resolutions which had been drafted by • the committee, and published in that day's paper, '• he must confess that it was his object to burke such a proceeding. His own resolution embodied nearly the same idea as that proposed by the motion for the < adjournment. He thought, however, if the meeting was adjourned, it^should be to some more convenient ' place, where the* electors of Eaglan and Franklin oould more easily meet together. He would rather, however, that the meeting were adjourned, in order that some definite proposition might be put before it. After some further disoussion, the motion was pu^ i< that the meeting should stand adjourned to a future - day to be notified by advertisement, An addition was afterwards made to the motion— that the meet" "j ing, on the next occasion, be held at Otahuhu, < ■■ A vote of thanks to the chairman terminated, the. proceedings. ' - ' l(i