HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES. Wednesday, July 26.

Daily Southern Cross, Volume XI, Issue 740, 1 August 1854, Page 3

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES. Wednesday, July 26.

The Speaker took the chaii at 5 o'clock. Mr. Fousaith moved the second reading of the Marriage Bill for Wednesday next. Mr. Mbemman objected that time was not allowed for study of the Bill. It was not yet out of the printers hands ; and many who were interested in the matter, Archdeacon Abraham, for instance had not seen it at all. , , Mr. Forsaith had no wish to hurry it through, and •would consider of a later day. After a desultory discussion concerning the Auckland share of the New Zealand Company's Debt, Mr. Wakeoeld postponed his former notice to Wednesday next. Industrial Schools. Mr. Picabd, postponed the notice respecting Industrial School at Motueka to the following day. Mr. Carleton asked the hon. member for Lyttelton whether it be the intention of the Government, to take any steps during the present Session, for ameliorating the administration of the postal service between this and the neighbouring colonies, by effecting an interchange of credit. Mr. Fitzgerald thought this question should be allowed to stand over till the postal department was remodeled. Mr. Carletox thought that an arrangement for prepayment of letters to England and the neighbouring colonies might be effected without legislation, He had occasion to send many letters to England upon colonial matters, and was obliged to enclose them to some person whom lie could depend upon, to frank and re-post them. By a simple arrangement with Sydney, letters could be frankid to England, Mr. Fitzgerald would give his attention to the subMr. Forsaitk hop?d some means would be adopted to ensure an earlier delivery of letters in Auckland. Steam. Major Greenwood asked whether it was the intention of the Government, to propose any arrangement with the owners of the steam-ship "William Denny now lying in Auckland harbour, with a view to expediting* the transmission of the mails, between Australia and this Colony. Mr. Fitzgerald said, there was some difficulty in making arrangements as to what ports the steamers should call at, if under the General Government. He thought that the question could be better dealt with by the Provinces. Mr. Travers wished to know if any arrangement was about to be made with the steamer "Nelson." Mr. Fitzoerald said, the General Government intended to place a sum on the estimates, to provide steam communication between all the Provinces. Electoral 8011. Major Greenwood to ask to-morrow if the Electoral Rolls for the Province of Auckland were in a state of preparation, and whether instructions had been forwaided by the " Nelson" steamer, for the completion of those of the Southern Provinces. Waste Lands. Mr. Travtrs asked the Head of the Executive whether it was the intention of the Government to put a a stop to the sale of Waste Lands, under the Regulations now in force at less than 10s. per acre. Mr. Fitzgerald said, that if the Superintendent of any Province, or several members of its Provincial Council, should make the request, he had no doubt that the Governor would stop the sales until other regulations were made, Votes and Proceedings of House. Mr. Merriman moved for a Committee to superintend the printing, &c, of the votes and proceedings of the House. The Committee to consist of the Speaker, Messrs. Sewell, Cutten, Carleton, and the Mover.— Agreed to. Steam Communication. Mr. Mack ay said the information furnished to the committee was very meagre, the only obtainable information having been fzom the Captain and the Engineer of the "Nelson" steamer, he regretted that the steamer "William Denny" had not arrived, before the report had been brought up ; as they would have been able to report more fully, especially wich respect to steam communication with Australia. He would move that the report of the steam navigation committee be adopted. Mr. Fitzgerald said, he should consider the adoption of the report, as equivalent to a resolution that the General Government should secure the services of the steamer "Nelson." Mr. Travers wished that some arrangement snould be made, in order that the fares by the steamer might be reduced, so as to make the steamer available to all classes of the colonists. He would give a larger bonus and reduce the fares. Mr. O'Neill said, there was hardly sufficient information in the report, to wanant the government in undertaking the expenses of the steamer. They had no information of what the power of the steamer was, or what quantity of coals she would require daily. Mr. Cargill said, the vessel was of the same average power, as the steamers employed on the coast of England. Mr. O'Neill wished to know the power of the steamer and the quantity of coal consumed. Mr. Porter said, that as Auckland would receive the least benefit, that province ought not to pay the largest part of the £6,000, which was to be given as a bonus. . Mr. Macandrew observed, that from the extent oi the market at Auckland, it would receive the greatest benefit. Though the Otago Provincil Council had voted £1000 for steam communication, no notice had been taken of that settlement. Mr. Fitzgerald replied, that it was doubtful whether the steamer would pay her expenses during the first year. ... Mr. WAKEriELD, expressed his statisfaction at finding that the General Government, were about to take the contract off the hands of the provinces. Every province had an equal right to the benefit of steam. Major Greenwood said, as a member for Auckland, he was sure if they had to pay more than the other Provinces, it would be paid willingly (hear, hear). Mr. Forsatth. regretted that as the adoption of the report was tantamount to a money vote, the estimates were not on the table. Mr. Gi.eduill hoped the steamer would call at laranaki, and not pa-s that settlement without calling, as she had done before. Mr. Lbdlaji approved of the steamer being secured by the Government. Mr. Mackay in reply said, he was sorry his friend the member for the Waimea (Mr. Travers) had not seen the copy of the Contract for the Bonus of J66C00 to be paid to the agent of the Nelson ; the document in que?tion was ovdered to be printed with the Report, and must have been overlooked, in the present hurry in the printing office, to which allusion was made in the previous part of the evening. The manuscript copy was at the service of the hon. member, and would be laid on the table. He would next inform the hon. member for A .ckland, that the Committee had no evidence before them of the actual working expenses and earnings of the Nelson, the accounts being with the agents in Ts elson. He (Mr. Mackay) however had gone into them, and' having a knowledge of such matters, begged to state for the information of the House that, with the present price of coal &c, the Nelson could not be sailed much under £iO per di;m. Report adopted.

Adjourned Debate. — Waste Lands. The Speaker left the chair, and the House went into jommittee on this Bill. Mr. Macaxdrew would support tlie amendment, lie entirely concurred in the principle of reserving a portion of the Waste Lands for working settlers. He was giieved yesterday to see the places of fully one half of the members vacant, while this subject was under discussion. Party had been called the price of liberty, but he was afraid that, in their case, there were other things which might be sacrificed besides liberty. Mr. Hart had been anxiously looking to see the principle advocated in the amendment brought into practice, but it had not been done. It was impracticable. If the amendment were carried, the details would not work. Mr. Wakefield rose and said,— it was almost in answer to a ehallange that he was compelled to reply at 3ome length. The first objection taken by the hon. member for Lyttelton was that two thirds of the land would be given up to speculators. He would rather liave taken all from the speculators, but he feared that the ministry would object to more than one third being reserved. But it did not follow that because he wished to reserve one third, he wished to give up all the rest to speculators, on the contrary, he would leave the ;wo thirds to the operation of the Bill and to the veto )f the Provincial Councils. It had been said that he listrusted the Provincial Councils. He had specially >xeepted Otago and Canterbury ; but he did distrust he Provincial Council of Wellington ; that Council had jeen acted on by scrip. If the Provincial Council of Wellington made laws for the administration of the Waste Lands, the land would be squandered on mono-

Dolists He knew little of the Nelson Pro' incial Council and next to nothing of the Provincial Council of Auckland He distrusted the Executive Government, the power was too great and must have a corrupting influence • no Executive ousjht to have so much. Parlunneut'tit home would not give such power to any Excutive The great principle of responsible government was that the Executive belonged to the Legislative Government. He distrusted every thing and every body, except a good sound law, on this subject. Hon. members had assumed that his amendments were impracticable • but that was no reason they should not try the system he proposed ; this was a mere excuse. The hon. member (Mr. Fitzgerald) had taunted him with not havin" laid his opinion on the question of Waste Lands before 3 the House. He regretted that no opportunity of so doing had been afforded. Even his hon. friends, though holding office, had given no opinion on the subiect The speech of his hon. friend (Mr. F.) was so short, (hear hear) and so insignificant (hear, hear) that he would pass on to other members who had criticised him. He regretted that the hon. member for the Bay of Islands was not in his seat. (Mr. Carlcton, here he is, laughter,) His hon friend, fresh from Cambridge, had criticised the amendments. He would not chop logic with him, but refer him to the well known anecdote of the pigeon pie and the jack pie, and then pass on to what had fallen from the hon. member for Motueka who had fully concurred in the principles of the amendments but concluded by averring that he liked them only in the abstract. He would not spend time in discussing his hon friend's (Mr. Travers) Chinese amendments, they were too ridiculous. His hon. colleague for the liutt (Mr. Ludlam) had addressed many remarks to him, which should have been addressed to the hon. member for Chiistchurch (Mr. Sewell). His hon friend seemed much hurt by his distrust of the Provincial Council of Wellington, but they had acted in conjunction for the public benefit there. His hon. friend seemed to have acquired much of his confidence in that Council since coming to Auckland (no, no, from Mr. L.) Of all whom he had met with, his hon. friend was the only one who really supported the small farm system. (Here Mr. Wakefield pronounced a strong eulogium on the hon. member for the Hutt.) He came next to the hon. member for Christchurch. His arguments were fallacies. He had in a very solemn manner objected to the use of an oath in the open court, proposed by the amendments. That court had to take evidence, as to whether the applicant was a working settler or a speculator, and this ought to be taken, upon oath. His hon. friend had called these amendments, the mere appendage to a Bill.his (Mr. Ws) crowning performance in the work of colonization. This is another fallacy. He (Mr. Sewell) had left the class of speculators entirely out of his argument. His hon. friend had also objected to the Governor carrying out the principles of these amendments. But worst of all, there came at the conclusion a perversion of his object. He (Mr. S.) endeavouml to make out that he (Mr. W.) was not sincere, and that he only wanted to gain popularity among the working class ; the proof of this being that the amendments were drawn in a loose and slovenly manner. His hon. friend knowing at the same time that they were drawn by a lawyer second to none in the colony. These fallacies exhibited a certain amount of cleverness ; but such adroitness in debate did not serve the purpose intended. Then there was the question of what he considered to be the sufficient price for land ; he had written 6 vols. on this subject. His object had been to enable persons of all classes to go to a waste country, capitalists would not go to a waste country unless labour accompanied them ; then the question arose how was this labour to be secured for a term. His proposal was that a price should be put upon the land which would keep the labourers from becoming land holders, till others arrived to take their places. If the whole of the land fund was employed for emigration, the labourer would have to work less time before he became a proprietor than if a smaller portion was so expended. He was always willing that the whole of the land fund should be devoted to emigration, so as to reduce the term the laborer would be required to work as a labourer to the minimum. Another object of his sufficient price was to provide a fund for bringing labour to the colonies — to bring the poor half starved pauper here, and to place him as a colonial labourer, enjoying high colonial wages and other advantages. Before this plan was conceived by him, a feAV gentlemen who constituted the Colonial Office, had the management of waste lands in the colonies. After some years, himself and friends obtained the passing of a law, under which all land was to be sold. From that time he had always had an implacable foe in the Colonial Office. He was a party to the fixing of £3 an acre for land in Canterbury. He had been there, and he believed the land at Canterbury at £3 per acre was the cheapest land in New Zealand. Besides paying for the land, they paid, first for the suivey ; next for the roads ; and then there was £1 for emigration purposes, foi to help others to come out to help them to make their fortunes ; and then they paid for schools and religious instruction. He considered the land to be sold at ss. per acre, and the other 555. to be for these other objects He had recommended in Canada that the price should be 4s. 7 i d. per acre. Was that a high price ? No, but it was a sufficient one under the circumstances. He considered the circumstance of this country as affected by discovery of the gold fields. It would now be impossible to bring out labourers who would stay, from an emigration fund, so they must rely on something more attractive than gold. They must excite the natural and inherent desire of independence, by offering facilities for acquiring land. He had said and written this immediately after the disco veiy of the gold fields. Shoxild these gold fields turn out as rich as they aie expected to be, there would be an end of one man working long for another in these colonies. He had given up the idea of obtaining labour ftom an emigration fund raised from a sufficient price for land. They must now rely on the attraction of land. They must offer land to those who could not obtain it at home. He had hoped that this first Parliament of New Zealand would have bud to consider some great plan to carry out the object. Should this be done, every one of the provinces would double its population in a few years. (Cheers.) Mr. Weld said, his hon friend had answered the question relative to waste lands ; he had told them that his scheme was not now practicable as a means for bringing out emigrants. He had always been of opinion that they must offer an enducement to labourers to come here, by giving them cheap land. He believed the scheme proposed by the hon. member could not be carried into efilct. Mr. P/card said, that if his hon. friend would consider his vote upon the first clause, as approving of the principle only, he would give it ; provided always that he should be allowed to oppose every one of the subsequent clauses. He thought the scheme impracticable as it stood. Mr. Tuavers explained, he concurred in the principle the hon. member had brought forward in these amendments, but he thought it should be left to the Provincial Council. He doubted the efficacy of the means, for securing the objects proposed. If the principle was good, it should be applied to the whole of the waste lands. (Hear, hear, and cheers.) He could not vote for the amendment, because it did not go far enough. The means for carrying it out were too crude. Mr. E J. Wakefield said, it would be quite in order for the hon. member to move, that for " one third" the word " all" be substituted. Major Greexwood, would rote for the addition to the first clause, to affirm the principle, but could not assent to the succeeding ones. Mr. Cargtll, would vote for the amendment, as the Provincial Councils had really no power under this bill. He could nofc agree to all the details ; but ho thought that affirmation of the principle, would have a good effect in England, by way of promoting emigration. Dr. Monko said, he thought that some hon. members had made up their minds to provide a remedy, before they knew any disease existed. The term working settler included' every one in this colony. He had never seen a settler who did not work. The whole of the 1 \nd should be reserved for working settlers. But the object of the amendment was to give some peculiar advantages to the Avorking men. By working men, he understood the men in blue shirts, with horny fists, who had not given too much time to the study of Lindley Murray. He did not think that the working men were likely to be oppressed as a class. He considered it a mischievous thing to make a distinction between settlers, and to divide society into classes, and thought that the working class themselves would not wish that such a measure should be passed. Mr. Lxjdlam, in reply to what had fallen from the hon. member for the Hutt, said, that he followed no man, that he only relied on his own opinion. He supported ministers because he thought they were doing the best they could for the colony. More land had been purchased in the province of Wellington under Sir Georgo Grey's Proclamation, during the last fifteen months, than in the previous thirteen years, under the New Zealand Company. Mr. Fitzgerald said, every single word used by the hon. member in defence of his proposition, he had heard used by the antagonists of the high price system. The lion, member had said on one occasion, charge a high price, even if you throw the money into the sea, and keep the labourer from getting land. Mr. Waketield explained. Mr. Lunlam, after answering several points referred :o by the hon. member for the Hutt, observed that with

regard to his (Mr. LudUm's) saying that the hon member for the Hutt had little sympathy with the working classes, whpn he charged them £25 an acre for busn. Land, he (Mr. Wakefield) says that it was ; valued by -Mr. Bell and a road surveyor at that price, but he did "ot tell the House that his tenants had cleared the land and that after two arbitrations, as to the price hereiused to abide by them, several of his tenants complained to him (Mr. Ludlam) of his having deceived them. Mr. Sbwell said, they had listened to a veiy remarkable speech from the hon. member for the Hutt, which would take its place in the history of the Colony. Ihe hon member had abjured his former principles; the master of a political school was now; to unteach what he had formerly taught. It was with great pain he had listened to the speech of his hon. friend which had completely unsettled his own political creed. But, the course of argument adopted reminded him of an old law story : a bad case was put into the hands of a barrister ; on the brief was written, " Indefensible : abuse the plaintiff's attorney. (Hear, and laughter.) The statements of the hon. member respecting himself (Mr. S.) was nothing more than the last miserable resort of a bad cause, abusing the plaintiff's attorney. (Hear, hear.) So soon^as the hon. member sees no chance of importing labour into the colony by a sufficient price, he abandons the whole plan. The discovery of the gold fields was no sufficient cause for this change of opinion. Mr. Wakei-ied briefly replied. Committee divided. Ten membprs voting for, and twenty-one against the amendment. Mr.' Wakei'ibi/d, with the permission of the Committee, withdrew the remaining clauses. Mr. Weld moved that the Chairman report progress. The Speaker took the chair. Mr. Fitzgerald moved that the Waste Lands bill be read a third time on Friday next.— Agreed to. The House then adjourned to Thursday at 12 o clock.

Thursday, July 27, 1854. The Speaker took the chair at 12 o'clock. Industrial ScJwol. Mr. Picard, asked the hon. member for Lyttelton, whether it is the intention of the Government to take any, and what steps with reference to the grants of certain lands in the district of Motueka in the Province of Nelson, by his Excellency Sir George Grey to the Bishop of New Zealand for an Industrial School. Mr. Fitzgerald replied, that the Government at present had no intention of interfering with the grants. If they were illegal, the Supreme Court would be the proper place to try the question. Mr. WAKxrrELD said, from the reply it was evident that no legislative remedy could be obtained for any amount of wrong that might have been done. Mr. Sewell said, that as the grant had been issued, the Supreme Court was the proper place to question its legality. That house might interfere where a grant was at variance with public policy. After some discussion, the matter was allowed to drop for the present. Electoral Bolls. Major GiurrNWOon, to ask whether the Electoral Rolls for the Province of Auckland are in a state of preparation, and whether instructions were forwarded by the " Nelson" steamer for the completion of those of the Southern Provinces. Mr. Fitzgerald said, that the Electoral Rolls were in preparation, and that instructions had been forwarded to the South per ' Nelson.' Mr. WAKEriELD moved that a letter received from the Government Printers be read. — Agreed to. The letter laid the blame on the clerk to the House ; he not having furnished copy to the printers at the proper time. Government Accounts, Mr. Fitzgerald moved that a Select Committee he appointed to consist of Messrs. Porter, Forsaith, Major Greenwood, Messrs. Revans, Feathers tone, Kelham, Macandrew, Sewell, E. J. Wakefield, Weld, Monro, King, and the Mover, to examine and report upon the statements of accounts laid before the House by the Government ; and that it be an Instruction to the above Committee to consider and report whether it be not desirable that a bill should be passed appropriating to the public service, such funds as may be necessary to liquidate the liabilities incurred by the General Government dm ing the year ending the 30th of September next, and that such bill should constitute an indemnity for such expenditure as shall have been incurred without sanction of law, report to be brought up on Thursday next. Mr. Fitzgerald then observed,— There was a certain expenditure which was now going on ; and which since 30th of September, 1853, was being incurred without the sanction of law. In order to sanction the expenditure since that period, he proposed to pass an indemnity Bill. The officers at present in office, must be continued till some new system should be adopted. He wished the House clearly to understand that he was in no way responsible for this budget, but was entirely in the hands of the house. Committee agreed to. Land Claimants Estate Dill. Mr. TitAVEHS moved that this Bill be now read a second time. Mr. Merkiman seconded . He worild move, that all bills of a legal kind should be referred to a select committee—Bill read a second time. Mr. Travers moved that th/» bill be referred to a select committee, consisting of all the legal members of X\ at House. — Agreed to. Empoioering Bill. Mr. Fitzgeiuld moved that the Empowering Bill be now read a third time. Messrs. WAKEriELD and Sewell objected to the bill, but did not oppose the third reading. Bill read a third time and passed. Law Practitioners Bill. This Bill was referred to the Select Committee on legal bills. The House then adjourned till Friday, at 12 o'clock. Friday, July 21. At the hour of meeting (12 o'clock) the number of members present was insufficient to form a House. The Speaker adjourned the House until Tuesday.